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#18252 - 10/13/11 03:40 AM How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion?
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Since my iMac came to me without media (install or any other kind of disks) and with 10.7 installed (the latter updated to 10.7.1), to be on the safe side, how would I create a bootable install disk from what is being called a recovery partition (or, alternatively, a restore partition) which ostensibly holds the information?
[I need any description of how to go about this in plain English so that I might have a ghost of a chance of actually accomplishing such a task.]

This iMac has an integral CD/DVD burner (or so I'm told).

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#18256 - 10/13/11 08:18 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
At this point in time I'm not sure if you can. AFAICT, current options include burning the Lion Installer to DVD, or installing it on a HD, USB stick or SD card as described in the following articles:

- How to make a bootable Lion install disc or drive
- Lion DiskMaker

However, the methods described there make use of the InstallESD.dmg file present in a standard Lion Installer download, and therein lies the rub: it's not clear to me whether this file is present on a Mac that shipped with Lion, like your iMac, but I doubt it. If it isn't, and Apple allows you to download a copy for free (Lion Internet Recovery?*), you sure won't enjoy your dialup connection (if it works at all)...

*) In your case Apple may refer you to its Lion-on-a-stick option.

UPDATE: apparently you can make such a disk with the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant.


Edited by alternaut (10/13/11 08:39 AM)
Edit Reason: Added pertinent info
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#18257 - 10/13/11 08:50 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
There are several features in OS X 10.7 that make a bootable backup disk somewhat redundant including:
  1. The bootable "Recovery HD" that is installed on every Lion boot disk (Reboot while holding down command+R)
  2. Time Machine
  3. The Apple App Store

You can boot from the Recovery HD as mentioned and do a full and complete restore of your system from any given hour, day, week, or month since you activated the Time Machine backups or you can go to the App Store and re-download and install OS X — which will be the current version at this unique point in time. This, of course, will not help in the event of a mechanical failure of your hard drive.

I suspect it is for that reason that some users feel uncomfortable without a bootable hard copy of their OS. In that case I can suggest three options in roughly the order of their popularity:
  1. A clone of your entire system on an external hard drive using Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper. Both can be used free in their simplest version which is really all you need. The merits of both have been discussed at length but IMHO it mostly boil down to which user interface you prefer.
  2. Keeping a bootable copy of Lion on an external hard drive along with one or more volume testing and recovery apps such as Drive Genius, TechTool Pro, or Diskwarrior. Each of these cost around $90 but most will tell you having one or more of these is essential due to the very weak capabilities of Disk Utility. You would still need the Time Machine backup for recovery.
  3. A bootable recovery DVD. For instructions on doing that see this Apple Knowledge Base article. You would still want to have the Time Machine backup to recover your personal data files, settings, etc.

FWIW, I have a Time Machine backup and options 1, 2, and 3 but if I had to limit it to a single option it would probably be option 2. 😄
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#18258 - 10/13/11 09:48 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
The gist of the discussion is that I won't have a back-up disk, since I don't understand the suggestions for action given.

I also read the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant article and couldn't make head or tail of it.

What is Time Machine?

Any back-up I might do, as I have for years, is just to burn everything on a CD from time to time. (I used Toast Titanium with my old iMac, but I'm supposing I could use this machine for such once I figure out how to burn a CD with it.)

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#18259 - 10/13/11 10:19 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
jchuzi Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Cloning is a backup strategy that lets you make a complete copy of your hard drive to another hard drive. In OS 9, you could do that by drag-and-drop but it is not possible in OS X because there are too many hidden files that need to be copied. I have the luxury of being able to install extra drives in my Mac Pro but you can use an external hard drive connected via either Firewire or USB.

You can actually boot the computer from a cloned drive and use it as if it were your internal drive. I have Disk Warrior installed on my main drive and, of course, it got cloned to the other drive. When I want to use it on the main drive, I can insert the DW CD and wait about 10 minutes to have it boot the computer, or I can boot from the clone in 40 seconds. If my main drive crashes, I can boot from the clone and still use the computer.

My cloning app of choice is SuperDuper but another good option is Carbon Copy Cloner. The initial clone (copying the entire drive) can take 45 minutes or longer but SD allows you to make incremental clones (copying only those files that have changed since the last clone). This takes a fraction of the time (in my case, about 10 minutes). I run SD once a week or so. FYI, you'll have to buy a license in order to unlock SD's incremental cloning capability. If you don't pay the fee, you can still use it to make complete clones but you'll have to erase the drive each time and start from scratch. I can't comment about CCC because I haven't used it in years, but SD's interface is very friendly.

Time Machine is an Apple program that is built into the OS. For complete information, read Mac 101: Time Machine. You cannot boot the computer from a Time Machine backup but you can revert to previous versions of files (and TM makes them automatically). Clones are one-trick ponies in that regard; they only have the files from your most recent clones. If I need, for example, a file that I made a month ago (and I had since deleted it), I can get it from my Time Machine backup but not from the clone that I just made. The nice thing about TM is that you don't have to do anything after it's set up; it does it all for you. One of my internal drives is dedicated to TM.
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.4, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#18261 - 10/13/11 11:06 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: jchuzi]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Thanks (once again) for your heroic efforts to allow me to understand what's going on.

But while I comprehend the grammatical constructions of your comments, their semantic content is lost on me.

I read "Mac 101: Time Machine" and can make little if any sense of it either. It makes reference (without definition) to things such as Time Capsule, describes procedures which would take a person with a degree in computer science to understand, and so on.

As I've noted in the Lounge, I'm bowing out. I'll use the machine until it seizes up or craps out on me and then drop it in the recycling bin.

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#18262 - 10/13/11 11:07 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: joemikeb]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
There are several features in OS X 10.7 that make a bootable backup disk somewhat redundant including:
  1. The bootable "Recovery HD" that is installed on every Lion boot disk (Reboot while holding down command+R)
  2. Time Machine
  3. The Apple App Store


I actually find all of these options unsatisfactory.

Option #1 assumes the hard drive still works. A recovery partition is utterly useless in the face of a hard drive failure, as I discussed in Virtual1's thread. Sure, you can buy a new hard drive to replace the one that failed...

...but then you have no OS media and so no way to reinstall.

Option 2 requires that every computer user go out and purchase a second hard drive to use as the Time Machine backup. And even then, if your primary hard drive fails, you're just as buggered as you re in Option 1--ok, so you have this wonderful non-bootable Time Machine backup. So what? What do you do now? Without install media, you can't reinstall the operating system on your computer so you can't use the Time Machine backup.

Option 3 doesn't help at all. If you can't get an operating system onto your computer, you can't use the App Store.

So, if your hard drive fails, and you don't have installation media...now what?
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#18263 - 10/13/11 11:33 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
I've noticed this thread and in my brain's background processor had already prepared a response but someone else beat me to it. Then, being fascinated (in a horrible way) with your plight, I just sat down and pretended to buy a brand new iMac from Apple directly.

I wondered how long it would take me to find out what OS they're pre-loading on brand new Macs, now.

I'm pretty nifty with research, it's part of my job. I can rapid-read a whole page of marketing blah and find the part I want to click on. I can scroll up and down and remember what I've already read.

This one, though, had me somewhat askance. It took 5 times longer than it should have, to find out exactly which OS, new Macs ship with. IMO it's well hidden. IMO someone who regards themselves as a good researcher like me, could buy a new Mac, now, and then find that they've bought a LION one. With all attendant grief as in this thread.

I am looking at this entire scenario with a squinty eye (because of Apple's new OS pre-loaded configuration) and am very glad indeed that I'm not in that boat. Therefore, I owe some apologies to grelber.

Having said all that, I would reiterate my suggestion that he buy himself a Snow Leopard license, instal that on his new Mac and breathe again.

I also have to say that this is terrible PR for Lion, and their crazy decision to make it downloadable-only, if anyone wants to upgrade to it. Upgraders somehow are supposed to know in advance to save the Installation disk image for a bootable back-up. How intuitive is that?

It's been an education. Apologies again to grelber. But you are handicapped with dial-up which presumably limits your internet research........... anyway enough said.

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#18266 - 10/13/11 11:57 AM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: grelber
The gist of the discussion is that I won't have a back-up disk, since I don't understand the suggestions for action given.
I also read the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant article and couldn't make head or tail of it.
As I've noted in the Lounge, I'm bowing out.

I must confess that I'm rather disappointed with the lack of effort you seem to be willing to invest in dealing with your own question. In the course of answering it I alone spent several times the time needed to do what you're asking: making a bootable Lion backup disk. And then I'm not even talking about the other respondents.

Let's briefly go through the solution I offered, the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant. The KB article linked to clearly states that you'd need
(1) a Mac with a Lion Restore HD,
(2) an external USB hard drive or thumb drive (min. 1GB),
(3) a copy of Lion Recovery Disk Assistant (appr. 1MB download).

What don't you get about that?

You've got (1), I suggest you get a 2-4GB thumb drive for (2), and even on your dialup the LRDA (3) should download pretty quickly.
Why the thumb drive? It will be much faster than the DVD you wanted to go for, is easier to update, handy and cheap ($5-10).

Next you plug in that thumb drive, run LRDA, select the thumb drive as target, follow the remaining screen instructions, and presto!, done.

And then you want to bow out? I don't get that... confused
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#18267 - 10/13/11 12:11 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Burn LION (in Applications folder) to a DVD disc. See if what you get is usable to reboot the computer.

It may not be perfect, but this may give you enough to work with should your computer crash (i.e. access to disk utility for repairs, etc.).

If this does not work, the most you are out is the cost of a disc (and your time).

grin


https://support.apple.com/kb/ht1479

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?path=mac/10.4/en/mh854.html

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#18268 - 10/13/11 12:23 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Bensheim]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
"Upgraders somehow are supposed to know in advance to save the Installation disk image for a bootable back-up."


Clarification: When I downloaded LION a couple days after it hit the market, I was ASKED during the process if I wanted to make a backup disc copy. I selected YES, inserted a disc, and continued through the procedures.

If one chooses to "skip this step" when asked, the chance to do so at that time is lost.

P.S. A DMG was also part of that initial download. Although I have not tried to burn a disc from that DMG - don't need a second one - I presume that it is possible.

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#18271 - 10/13/11 12:41 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Bensheim]
MikeS Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Slightly off topic, but can Snow Leopard be installed on a "new" mac with Lion pre-installed?
If so I have prematurely invested in a new (re-furbished) MacBook Pro with S/L pre-installed, having understood that the aforementioned was not possible.
In other words I was contemplating getting a MacBook Pro in the future, but did not want to risk leaving it so late that Lion would be pre-installed.
Are you seeing a pattern - I do/did not want to "go Lion" yet for various reasons.
I must confess though that I am delighted with my MacBook Pro running Snow Leopard.
Regards. Mike

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#18272 - 10/13/11 12:52 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: grelber]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
UPDATE:

Burned a DVD of LION. Couldn't be simpler than this.

1. Go to APPLICATIONS FOLDER and find icon named INSTALL MAC OSX LION;

2. Left-click to highlight and Right-click on icon;

3. Select BURN TO DISC (used a Memorex DVD+RDL blank disc);

Insert disc and away you go. Took about 7 minutes to burn.

4. Ejected disc . . . inserted again to test. Typical procedure instructions appeared. Looks like it would work (if I wished to continue installing).

TA! DA!

laugh

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#18273 - 10/13/11 12:56 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MikeS]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
GENERALLY . . . one cannot overwrite an older version (SNOW LEOPARD) on a newer one (LION).

But don't give up just yet. It seems to me that this question was raised before in this forum and someone WAS able to provide a work-a-round option.

So . . . someone may chime in again.

smirk

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#18274 - 10/13/11 01:02 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MG2009]
MikeS Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for you response.
Perversely and selfishly I hope there is/was no "work-around option" as it is too late for me. blush
Not really, as I'm sure it would appeal to a great number of people who maybe wanted to get a new Mac but were not "ready" for Lion.
Regards. Mike

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#18275 - 10/13/11 01:03 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MikeS]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Here is a link that might give some insight into the matter:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3191730?start=0&tstart=0


P.S. I am quite happy with the switch to LION. A few minor applications were not compatible with LION as they were with SNOW LEOPARD . . . but not a big deal for me. Also, I do not use Rosetta, so the loss of that feature did not affect me directly.


Edited by MG2009 (10/13/11 01:06 PM)

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#18276 - 10/13/11 01:08 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MG2009]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: MG2009
"Upgraders somehow are supposed to know in advance to save the Installation disk image for a bootable back-up."


Clarification: When I downloaded LION a couple days after it hit the market, I was ASKED during the process if I wanted to make a backup disc copy. I selected YES, inserted a disc, and continued through the procedures.

If one chooses to "skip this step" when asked, the chance to do so at that time is lost.

P.S. A DMG was also part of that initial download. Although I have not tried to burn a disc from that DMG - don't need a second one - I presume that it is possible.


Grelber didn't download it.
He has no disk image.
He bought a new Mac with Lion already installed.

Sorry you didn't get that bit before you posted.


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#18277 - 10/13/11 01:10 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MG2009]
MikeS Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks again for responding, but I think I 'Googled" that link when I was trying to find out for myself and I was not confident that it would actually be successful on a Lion pre-installed Mac. frown
Regards. Mike

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#18280 - 10/13/11 01:23 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MikeS]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
I really fail to see what all the fuss is about. If you have a working Intel Mac, and a bootable system disk of a Mac operating system 10.*, then you can instal it on that Mac regardless of what operating system was already there.

Just stick it in and it will lead you onwards. If that means erase disk and instal, ok. You'll still have a fully functioning Mac afterwards, with the new OS on it.

Of course, anyone sensible would have copied all their data files to a removable/another hard disk media before starting this operation.

sigh.


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#18283 - 10/13/11 02:20 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Bensheim]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Alternatively . . . see my later post at 2:52 today.

It provides another option to the DMG method . . . presuming that a LION icon of some sort exists somewhere on the computer for the pre-installed version of the LION OSX (in the applications folder or moved??).


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#18284 - 10/13/11 02:26 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Bensheim]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
I really fail to see what all the fuss is about. If you have a working Intel Mac, and a bootable system disk of a Mac operating system 10.*, then you can instal it on that Mac regardless of what operating system was already there.

Not necessarily so. The hang-ups are Mac model-specific hardware drivers. Because of this, as mentioned before in this thread, you generally cannot install an older version of Mac OS X on a Mac that shipped with a newer one. This doesn't appear to apply to certain current Mac models shipping with Lion, but that's a rare exception.
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#18285 - 10/13/11 02:26 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Bensheim]
MG2009 Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
" . . . and a bootable system disk of a Mac operating system 10.*, then you can instal it on that Mac regardless of what operating system was already there."


P.S. I don't think it is possible to load an OS disc designed for use with a PPC (e.g. 10.4 TIGER) on an INTEL machine . . . but please correct me if I am wrong about this.


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#18286 - 10/13/11 02:27 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: MikeS]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: MikeS
Slightly off topic, but can Snow Leopard be installed on a "new" mac with Lion pre-installed?

I can see your interest in this question, but please keep the thread on topic.
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#18287 - 10/13/11 02:29 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: Bensheim]
MikeS Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Don't sigh, please don't sigh as there's no need on my part, I'm fully backed up and running and not making a fuss. grin
But I'm still not 100% sure about S\L on a pre-installed Lion. But also I'm not terribly bothered as I am quite happy as I am.
Regards. Mike

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#18288 - 10/13/11 02:30 PM Re: How to create bootable back-up disk for OS X Lion? [Re: alternaut]
MikeS Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Sorry. blush
I meant to apologise earlier on.
Regards. Mike

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