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#16538 - 07/15/11 05:46 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
alternaut Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Ryck brings up another important issue: once Apple officially introduces a new version of Mac OS X, it tends to stop selling the previous version immediately or pretty soon after. So if you're interested in Snow Leopard, get the necessary install disks NOW, don't wait.

That said, previous OS versions tend to be available from 3rd parties, frequently used and at premium prices. It's not yet clear how this practice will change with Lion, which will not come with install disks, but with a special (re)install partition on the hard disk. While it's possible to burn an install disk from this partition, it's not yet clear if Apple will make them available separately, in which case (illegal) 3rd party copies will be the only game in town.

By the way, Macs can see other Macs on the same network regardless of OS version running. In case there is an issue, there's always the target disk mode Jon alluded to.
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#16541 - 07/15/11 09:41 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
Hi Dianne,

Yes, see msg 16490 further up.


Re disks, Artie says "The discs that come with any Mac install at least the latest operating system (*) (**) plus bundled software; there is no need to buy black discs other than to upgrade your current version of OS X."

Confused now.

I'll thank dianne here for her post that highlights the fact that my answer to your disc question was not the answer to the question you asked and was, therefore, incorrect.

She is correct in saying both that the discs that will come with your new Macs will not be able to install Snow Leopard on your old Macs that you would like to upgrade and that unless those Macs are Intel Macs, which is not clear from your posts, they cannot run Snow Leopard under any circumstances.


Edited by artie505 (07/15/11 10:02 AM)
Edit Reason: Correct thanks to dianne
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#16543 - 07/15/11 11:30 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: artie505]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
Hi Dianne,

Yes, see msg 16490 further up.


Re disks, Artie says "The discs that come with any Mac install at least the latest operating system (*) (**) plus bundled software; there is no need to buy black discs other than to upgrade your current version of OS X."

Confused now.

I'll thank dianne here for her post that highlights the fact that my answer to your disc question was not the answer to the question you asked and was, therefore, incorrect.

She is correct in saying both that the discs that will come with your new Macs will not be able to install Snow Leopard on your old Macs that you would like to upgrade and that unless those Macs are Intel Macs, which is not clear from your posts, they cannot run Snow Leopard under any circumstances.


Thank you for the clarification Artie, and I apologise for not having made myself clear.

There are 4 Macs in this office: 2 are Intel and 2 are not.

The 2 which are not, are going to be replaced with brand new Macs, which will be Intel. Thenceforeward, all 4 will be Intel.

It seems that in addition to buying 2 new Macs, I must now also purchase a 10.6 license (black discs) to upgrade the OS on the two existant Intel Macs to bring them all up to the same OS.

With a £2,000 spend on hardware, another £36 spend on an additional 10.6 license is acceptable.

Browsing around Amazon and Apple Store earlier, there are plenty of new iMacs to be had, running 10.6, and plenty of SL licenses too, within that cost.

Many thanks for answering and re-clarifying.

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#16544 - 07/15/11 01:05 PM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: Bnesheim
Browsing around Amazon and Apple Store earlier, there are plenty of new iMacs to be had, running 10.6, and plenty of SL licenses too, within that cost.

Be careful with anything OS X purchased from eBay or other such sources. Too often they are unwittingly or perhaps wittingly selling the machine specific grey disks and not the retail upgrade disks. Your £36 cost of two Snow Leopard licenses is about 25% of what those same two licenses would cost in a U. S. Apple Store. I would expect two legitimate licenses to cost more on the order of £150. On the other hand waiting until the end of this month and you could upgrade two Intel machines to OS X 10.7 (Lion) for the original £36 you quoted.
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#16545 - 07/15/11 01:41 PM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: joemikeb]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: Bnesheim
Browsing around Amazon and Apple Store earlier, there are plenty of new iMacs to be had, running 10.6, and plenty of SL licenses too, within that cost.

Be careful with anything OS X purchased from eBay or other such sources. Too often they are unwittingly or perhaps wittingly selling the machine specific grey disks and not the retail upgrade disks. Your £36 cost of two Snow Leopard licenses is about 25% of what those same two licenses would cost in a U. S. Apple Store. I would expect two legitimate licenses to cost more on the order of £150. On the other hand waiting until the end of this month and you could upgrade two Intel machines to OS X 10.7 (Lion) for the original £36 you quoted.


Joe,

Amazon.co.uk
Snow Leopard Family pack, new, ~£43, here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing...p;condition=new


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#16546 - 07/15/11 02:41 PM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: APPLE INC. SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR MAC OS X
B. Family Pack License. If you have purchased a Family Pack license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non- exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple-branded computers at a time as long as those computers are located in the same household and used by persons who occupy that same household. By "household" we mean a person or persons who share the same housing unit such as a home, apartment, mobile home or condominium, but shall also extend to student members who are primary residents of that household but residing at a separate on-campus location. The Family Pack License does not extend to business or commercial users. (Emphasis added)
(Found here)

You may not use a Family Pack in your office; you must purchase two Single Use licenses.

Edit: They're still selling for $29 in the Apple US Store.


Edited by artie505 (07/15/11 02:44 PM)
_________________________
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#16565 - 07/18/11 09:42 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: artie505]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Ok Artie, got that, thanks for the reply.

I will find out when I plug it in, but I'd like some idea aforehand:

When I buy the 2 new Snow Leopard Intel Macs, and plug the first one into our router, will it be able to see the disk contents of the Tiger Macs on the same network? I hope the answer is yes, because then transferring user files and s/w will be easy. If the answer is no, then I'll have to think of a way (burn to DVD, probably) to get all the user files off before disconnecting the to-be-replaced Tiger windtunnel, then reinstal s/w in usual way.

I explain too much, I sometimes think.
Re-stated question.
Can OS SL and OS Tiger Macs co-exist on same network wrt seeing disk contents?

Many thanks you very helpful people.....

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#16567 - 07/18/11 11:05 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: roger]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: roger
sadly, it comes down to Apple never providing an option for the wonderful, easy database that is in Appleworks.


Apple is somewhat sponsoring Bento , makers of FileMaker

I've never used it nor filemaker before, but from what I can tell those are the best consumer-grade DB solutions for the mac
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#16570 - 07/18/11 01:40 PM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Virtual1]
joemikeb Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I have several database products I use on the Mac.
  • Filemaker Pro -- Filemaker used to be owned by Apple but was spun off several years ago. Filemaker is about as powerful a relational database as you can find with exceptionally powerful and relatively easy to use report generation. It can even generate HTML reports. It is available as a stand alone client -- but that client can also act as portal to a Filemaker server that can handle a very large number of sumultaneous queries. There are also a large number of third party solutions for Filemaker so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. It is not cheap.
  • Bento -- by Filemaker is an easy to use single user database product with access to most if not all the standard Apple databases such as AddressBook, iCal, iPhoto, etc. It is however strictly single user as it is dependent on the Apple databases and files on the host machine.
  • Yojimbo -- by Bare Bones Software, is another single user database. It is very simple and easy to use with access capabilities much like those in Spotlight. There is no report generator and like Bento is strictly single user.
  • MySQL -- is a very powerful open source multiuser database server that runs on the Mac. NeoOffice and OpenOffice database modules can access the common MySQL database seerver. It does call for good knowledge of database design to create a successful operation. IMHO this one is free it is definitely not for the faint of heart or amateurs for that matter.
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#16572 - 07/18/11 03:51 PM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Yes, Snow Leopard and Tiger machines should have no problems file sharing with each other.
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#16574 - 07/19/11 09:11 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: tacit]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: tacit
Yes, Snow Leopard and Tiger machines should have no problems file sharing with each other.


Thank you once again Tacit, that's good to hear.

This is a Very Good forum. It always yields intelligent and knowledgeable responses.

IMO.

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#16576 - 07/19/11 11:18 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: joemikeb]
roger Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Vermont
thanks, Virtual and Joe.
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stuff I'm interested in
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#16731 - 07/28/11 03:30 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: tacit]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
I'm about to order the two brand new intel iMacs (from a well known UK retailer which includes 2-year warranty) and the software licenses hereinbefore mentioned. I've contacted a 3rd party s/w site to make sure my version of their s/w will run under Snow Leopard. So far so good.

I have another question. I'm sorry if this seems 'stupid' but the only way to get the answer is to ask the question.

The other two intel Macs in this office, currently running Tiger, which I'm going to upgrade to SL with the new licences, do I just go ahead and instal SL on them, or do I have to get all the user files (all our precious work data) off them first?

I didn't have to ask this question when upgrading from OS8 to 9 all those years ago IIRC, so presumably all the OSX upgrades will happen as seamlessly in this respect? i.e., upgrade the OS and just carry on working? No need to get data off and back on again?

I hope that makes sense. Thank you in advance. Hope someone replies fairly soon.

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#16732 - 07/28/11 03:41 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
The only thing I'll say is that regardless of which route you ultimately decide to take to get from Tiger to Snow Leopard, be certain that everything you can't afford to lose is fully backed up before you begin the process!
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#16734 - 07/28/11 06:32 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
alternaut Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
... do I just go ahead and instal SL on them, or do I have to get all the user files (all our precious work data) off them first?

I didn't have to ask this question when upgrading from OS8 to 9 all those years ago IIRC, so presumably all the OSX upgrades will happen as seamlessly in this respect? i.e., upgrade the OS and just carry on working? No need to get data off and back on again?

You're right with that assumption: the OS upgrade can be performed without touching your home folder and its data. That said, and as emphasized by Artie, it's always a good idea to have those data backed up so that you won't lose anything if the smelly stuff hits the fan, however unlikely that may be.
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#16735 - 07/28/11 07:47 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: alternaut]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Excellent, thanks Artie and Alt

I've been watching You-tube clips of Tiger > Snow Leopard installations.

Some of them are terrible. There are several where the person doing the demonstration is also trying to hold a camcorder in his/her other hand, resulting in the picture moving about all over the place. Another one has a man who keeps saying "OK Guys......" and "Here we GO!" and another one, the Mac being filmed has an unbelievable desk top image of some artiste, image copied over and over to fit his desk top, so you canNOT see what the demonstrator is doing, clicking on, pointing at. frown

OTOH I've now found out that I won't need a new printer driver: apple software update will sort that out for me, if necessary. Good! The manufacturer's website was impenetrably obtuse on this subject.



Edited by Bensheim (07/28/11 07:47 AM)

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#16737 - 07/28/11 03:53 PM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Speaking about printer drivers, I would recommend excellent free Gutenprint from Sourceforge
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3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16738 - 07/28/11 04:22 PM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: macnerd10]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Not only is it free, it's included in OS X 10.6.
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#16756 - 07/30/11 08:48 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: dkmarsh]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
I've ordered the two new iMacs, delivery Thursday.

Taking a very close look at the spec, I see they'll come with Apple wireless keyboards, which are nearly half the width having no numeric pad. Navigation keys are elsewhere on the tiny cramped keyboard.

We won't be using them. I can only think that whoever designed this, does not have to input numbers on spreadsheets.

Talking of keyboards, yesterday I took it upon myself to clean the two filthy keyboards on my boss's desk. At first I used a spray disinfectant, which the old black buckling-spring keyboard just sneered at. Next I tried glass cleaning spray, which the grimy keyboard also shrugged aside. Eventually I reached for the Mister Muscle Removes Grease spray, clean cloth and 50-odd cotton buds. I finished it off with a blast from a hair dryer and an hour later had done an excellent job; the keyboard looks 10 years younger.

However, he later reported a problem. It types spaces all by itself. It seems that I killed it with my hygienic ferocity. Good job we have spare keyboards stashed about the place. smile

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#16757 - 07/30/11 09:12 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
alternaut Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
I've ordered the two new iMacs ... I see they'll come with Apple wireless keyboards, which are nearly half the width having no numeric pad.

Talking of keyboards, yesterday I took it upon myself to clean the two filthy keyboards on my boss's desk. At first I used a spray ...
However, he later reported a problem. It types spaces all by itself. It seems that I killed it with my hygienic ferocity.

Apple's default option is the standard (small) wireless keyboard. An alternative would have been the (wired) extended keyboard. Somehow, the wireless version of that extended keyboard is no longer available from Apple, but if you've got one lying around it'll probably work.

Cleaning keyboards is a good idea, but using spray cleaners may cause the liquid to seep in between the keyboard membrane assembly and short key contacts. They most likely will return to normal operation after a while, but you may have to disassemble the keyboard and dry the membrane assembly to speed things up and avoid corrosion. (There are any number of instruction sites for this to be found online, like here and here.)
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#16759 - 07/31/11 10:12 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: dkmarsh]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I am not sure about "included". If it were so, why does the KB article vaguely states that if the PPD file (which logically would be part of OS) cannot be found, one can use the Gutenprint PPD file? And then they give the link to the developer site.
I recall that when I switched to SL, my HP LaserJet would hesitate on pdf files during printing from Reader or Acrobat. To the point that I installed Gutenprint and all is still smooth and fast into Lion.
Apart from the drivers, there is also PrintTherapy that can remedy a lot of (minor) printing problems.


Edited by macnerd10 (07/31/11 10:13 AM)
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3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
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#16760 - 07/31/11 10:52 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: Bensheim]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
Taking a very close look at the spec, I see they'll come with Apple wireless keyboards, which are nearly half the width having no numeric pad. Navigation keys are elsewhere on the tiny cramped keyboard.


You have your choice of that keyboard or the wired keyboard with the numeric keypad. They're both the same cost.

Apple's theory is that you'll want the Magic Trackpad, which takes as much room as the keypad, and there's not room in front of your screen for both a wide keyboard and a trackpad.

I got the wide keyboard with numeric keypad (no extra charge) plus the trackpad plus the mouse ($69 extra to get both), and they all live comfortably in front of a 27" screen. Apparently a lot of people do this, because it came in a box with compartments for all three, and both the trackpad and mouse came pre-paired with the iMac.

I got trackpad + mouse, because I prefer the mouse but Lion prefers the trackpad, and I wanted the flexibility to play both ways. I didn't want to knock the trackpad until I'd tried it.

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#16763 - 07/31/11 04:10 PM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: macnerd10]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

From Gutenprint Printer Drivers for Mac OS X v10.6:

Quote:
This download includes Gutenprint printing software that shipped with Mac OS X v10.6 (Snow Leopard).

Maybe you opted not to install them as part of your original Snow Leopard upgrade?
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#16779 - 08/01/11 11:05 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: ganbustein]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: ganbustein


You have your choice of that keyboard or the wired keyboard with the numeric keypad. They're both the same cost.


Not from John Lewis dot com, it comes with a little wireless keyboard, no option. Extended wired costs another £40 or so.

No matter, I'll be using the extended-wired k/bs which are already in use, on the Macs about to be taken out of production.

Having said that however, next post........

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#16780 - 08/01/11 11:19 AM Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger [Re: alternaut]
Bensheim Offline


Registered: 08/16/09
Loc: UK
Dear Alt,

I don't want wireless keyboards!, my wireless mouse already EATS batteries, and I can't be doing with replacing AA batteries on a weekly basis on wireless keyboards when it is not in any way necessary. What's wrong with USB wired? iMacs come with 4 USB ports - that's what they're for, I reckon.

Thanks for your links on taking apart and cleaning keyboards, I did look at them. However it was a buckling spring keyboard which I ruined by cleaning it, not a membrane one. In any case, I can't help feeling that life is simply too short for all that fiddling with tiny screws..........

To my astonishment, utter astonishment, I now see that Cherry are doing buckling spring extended Mac keyboards on Amazon for between only £13.35 (Spill Resistant) and £61.27 (different model); and that Matias Tactile Pro for Mac can be had either from them or Amazon for £118.80.

I had just got through telling my boss that they don't make buckling spring keyboards any more, then a minute's search revealed all those purchasing opportunities. I'm amazed.

But I'm hoping he'll give up his mechanical keyboard and join the slim stainless steel (extended, wired) Apple keyboards like the rest of us. Give it time......... cool

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