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#16569 - 07/18/11 11:22 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: MacManiac]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Apple has always first and foremost been a hardware seller. The software exists mainly to encourage and promote hardware sales. This is in part due to the relatively lower availability of software for windows. It's easy to name just a handful of key pieces of software that have helped put Apple where they are today, many of which were cheap, or free:

- AppleSoft BASIC
- HyperCard
- VisiCalc
- AppleWorks
- Lotus 123
- MS Office
- FileMaker
- Developer Tools
- Final Cut
- Logic
- iTunes
- iPhoto
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#16573 - 07/18/11 05:02 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

artie, I'm not sure where the bee in your bonnet originates here.

Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
...I think joemikeb's point is that the "app store" concept has proven to accelerate rather than hinder software sales. [emphasis added]

Originally Posted By: artie505
I'm not all that certain that the iApp Store's success can be extrapolated to the Mac App Store...[emphasis added]

You expressed dubiousness—about whether or not the Mac App Store can succeed in the way that the iOS App Store has—in reply to my statement regarding the effect of the "app store" concept on software sales. So either we were discussing, among other things, software sales, or you were making a "pretty much non-responsive reply" to me.

Be that as it may, it's entirely unclear to me how you're evaluating the success of the iOS App Store, and thus unclear how you think the Mac App Store would need to perform in order to be credited with similar success. Here's my view:

I think the success of the iOS App Store lies in having established Apple's domination of the mobile-device-as-application-appliance market. This domination, arising initially from the fact that Apple beat everyone else out of the gate, is due partly to the ease of acquiring apps from iOS devices, including the ease of paying for them; partly to the vetting process Apple employs, which is highly effective at ensuring that apps pretty much Just Work and that malware is excluded (as opposed to the anything-goes Android model); and last but certainly not least, partly to the enormous popularity among developers of programming for iOS. Partly that's a matter of the sophistication and simplicity of Apple's developer tools, and partly it's a matter of the potential profits to be had by developing an iOS hit.

There's a gold rush aura surrounding the iOS App Store from the developer persepective. As with a literal gold rush, many more will dip their pans into the stream than will come up with nuggets. But the 2.5 billion dollars Apple had paid to developers as of June 2011's WWDC represents a whole different magnitude of incentive than that available on any other mobile platform. That's why the calculations I made using the data you provided are so relevant to the question of "success;" they result in a revenue stream which continues to attract many of the most talented developers out there.

I agree with your premise that the Mac App Store will feature fewer apps, and that those which aren't free will tend to cost more than iOS apps, and that Mac users will, on average, purchase fewer of them than iOS users. I think, though, that Mac users of 2011 and beyond will purchase more apps than Mac users have in the past, and, furthermore, that they'll allocate the money they do spend differently: less on big-ticket products from mainstream software companies, more on a smorgasbord of creative products from smaller developlers. And this won't so much be due to existing Mac users changing long established behaviors as it will to the ongoing rapid growth of a new user base drawn in large part from folks who were attracted to Apple's products via iOS devices, and are therefore completely comfortable with the "app store" concept and the computer-as-application-appliance mode; that's how they already do things.

The bottom line is that if the revenue the Mac App Store generates is sufficient to attract the same type of interest on the part of developers that the iOS App Store does, they'll be happy to develop for the Mac. Lots of them. Which means lots of apps to choose from, for folks running an OS with app purchasing built right in, folks who are used to purchasing apps from their devices with one-click ease. Which means lots of apps purchased, which means lots of developer revenues, and so on.

Notice I said, "if." Never having purchased an iOS app, precluded by hardware limitations from visiting the Mac App store, I'm certainly incapable of shedding any light on the probabilities from personal experience. The point is, the Mac App Store doesn't need to achieve 15 billion downloads in 3 years to be a success; it simply needs to provide an experience for both users and developers that's markedly superior to those offered by other platforms. I'm inclined to think that it will, but, truly, your guess is as good as mine.
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#16583 - 07/20/11 09:25 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: dkmarsh]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

I note that certain language on Get Lion in July. Only from the Mac App Store.—including that page title—hints that Lion will be available, eventually, in a more traditional form...

From Mac OS X Lion Available Today From the Mac App Store:

Quote:
Users who do not have broadband access at home, work or school can download Lion at Apple retail stores and later this August, Lion will be made available on a USB thumb drive through the Apple Store® (www.apple.com) for $69 (US).

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#16586 - 07/20/11 09:51 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: dkmarsh]
roger Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Vermont
well? who has it? laugh

quick question: multiple installs? will my wife and daughter and I all need to purchase it separately, or can I log into their App Stores with my Apple ID and get the download? I've read this whole thread through, and followed the links, but I'm still not clear. I'm not trying to scam Apple, but I don't want to pay three times if once is enough!
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#16595 - 07/20/11 10:56 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: roger]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I have installed three copies of Lion via the App Store and their DRM requires each to be a separate download. However if you are using the same App Store account you only pay for the first download and the rest are free (up to I believe a total of five installs).
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#16599 - 07/20/11 11:59 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: joemikeb]
roger Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Vermont
thanks, Joe. I will give it a go!
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stuff I'm interested in
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#16600 - 07/20/11 01:04 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: roger]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
If you are planning on buying a new MacBook Air or Mac Mini, keep this in mind: New MacBook Airs, Mac minis feature Lion Internet Recovery disc-less repair

. These machines do not have an optical drive and it looks as if Apple may make this a trend in other models.
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OS 10.14.6, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#16606 - 07/20/11 02:12 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: dkmarsh]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
$70 for a $10 flash drive that has $30 in software on it? sheeeeesh.
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#16607 - 07/20/11 02:21 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: jchuzi]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
These machines do not have an optical drive and it looks as if Apple may make this a trend in other models.


Wouldn't surprise me. They shipped the driveless airs with USB recovery recently. Really, what's easier to use, media on a flash drive or optical drive? I'd rather buy something on a flash drive personally. In 10 yrs our big filing cabinet drawer full of software boxes will have been replaced with a coffee cup on the back of the desk full of flash drives.
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#16610 - 07/20/11 03:03 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: Virtual1]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Originally Posted By: Virtual1
$70 for a $10 flash drive that has $30 in software on it? sheeeeesh.

It's not just the software, though; you're paying, in effect, a one-time charge for 4+ gigabytes of bandwidth you don't have available with your interent connection.

It's clearly in Apple's interest to have the entire world be high-speed and wireless. Those who hold out can expect to pay a surcharge. That's what the extra 30 bucks is.
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#16611 - 07/20/11 03:08 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: jchuzi]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Lion Internet Recovery appears to be available for any Lion-compatible computer with access to a high-speed internet connection. See OS X Lion: About Lion Recovery.
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#16612 - 07/20/11 04:58 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: dkmarsh]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
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#16614 - 07/20/11 05:09 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: dkmarsh]
roger Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Vermont
up and running, and liking it so far. took me a bit to get used to the reverse scrolling (I know you can change it, but it's good for me to change once in a while, eh? wink ).

my fans are racing however, so I'm looking into that. Mail is cool, Safari is very fast. I like MIssion Control.

so far so good!

edit: ok, as for the fans, there's a process called "Report Crash" that pops in and out of Activity Monitor and is sometimes using more than 50% of the CPU. any ideas? it just starts up again if I Quit it from Activity Monitor.


Edited by roger (07/20/11 05:13 PM)
Edit Reason: added info
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stuff I'm interested in
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#16620 - 07/21/11 02:10 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: dkmarsh]
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
I really don't like people moving my cheese. To understand that, check out David Pogue's Upgrading to Lion Means Embracing the iPad.

And the assembled multitudes wonder why I'm in no hurry to upgrade.

In fact, given that Apple via Mac is all about embracing things about which I don't give a damn [to phrase it kindly], I may just switch over to some PC or another or just forget about computers altogether.

Whatever happened to real progress, by which I mean the goal of having computers do our bidding and not vice versa? Wasn't that the object of the exercise, or have I been swept off to some perverted Land of Oz?

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#16625 - 07/21/11 11:09 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: dkmarsh]
MicroMatTech3 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Thanks for the link to the Ars Technica review. The page about file system changes (Core Storage), and the information about data integrity before it, are quite interesting.

I noticed that Apple's TechNote 1150, the long page about the HFS+ Volume Format, is gone. I hope a revision will be posted.
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#16633 - 07/21/11 05:05 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: joemikeb]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I have installed three copies of Lion via the App Store and their DRM requires each to be a separate download. However if you are using the same App Store account you only pay for the first download and the rest are free (up to I believe a total of five installs).


You can actually burn DVD install media, if you like.

Download the Lion package. Right-click the downloaded file and choose "Show Package Contents" from the downloaded installer. You'll see a folder called Contents. Open it. Inside you'll see another folder called Shared Support. Open that.

In the Shared Support folder, you will find a file named "InstallESD.dmg". As the name suggests, this is a complete, bootable disk image for Lion, ready to be burned to DVD with Disk Utility.

Run Disk Utility. Drag the InstallESD.dmg into the Disk Utility Volumes pane on the left-hand side of the window. Click on it and then click Burn. Viola! Your own bootable Lion installer DVD!
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#16634 - 07/21/11 05:32 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: tacit]
MicroMatTech3 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
I was surprised to learn that the 3.76 GB "Install Mac OS X Lion" file is downloaded to the /Applications folder, not /~/Downloads/. In my case, the file was not visible in /Applications until the download was nearly complete.

The installation file deletes itself after the installation is complete if it is still located in /Applications. To avoid having to download the file again, quit the Lion Installer before proceeding with the installation, and duplicate the installation file or move it to another location. Then relaunch the installer:

Save Your Bandwidth! Prevent OS X Lion Installer From Self-Destructing!.

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#16672 - 07/23/11 11:57 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: jchuzi]
Dave Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
The link to David Pogue's article that was posted above produces a "Please Log In" page on the New York Times site, so for those of us who don't want to bother with enabling another cookie and registering, here's the same article on another site:
Upgrading to Lion Means Embracing the iPad

The article confirms the conclusion I had reached earlier, after looking at Apple's page about OS X Lion. For what I do, I just don't need it. For the time being at least, I'll just stick with 10.6.8.

If you remember when Word 5 came out, I'm one of those guys who was perfectly happy with Word 4, because it allowed me to do everything I needed to do. For all practical purposes, the only applications I ever use are Firefox, GraphicConverter, iTunes, Terminal, and TextEdit.

My 1.83-gig Mac Mini already has all kinds of stuff I have never used, including Address Book, Automator, Chess, Dictionary, Font Book, Front Row, GarageBand (tried to edit a song with it once and couldn't figure out how to make a rhythmically-perfect splice so I forgot about it), iCal, iChat, Image Capture, iMovie, iPhoto, iSync, Mail, Photo Booth, Stickies, and Time Machine. They're all just taking up space that could be used for more music.

I'm sure there are many who will benefit from Lion, but when I looked at it, the first word that came to mind was "bloatware".

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#16678 - 07/24/11 09:07 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: Dave]
MicroMatTech3 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
The security improvements in Lion seem to me to be getting less attention than they deserve:

Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security
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#16693 - 07/25/11 02:45 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: MicroMatTech3]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: MicroMatTech3
The security improvements in Lion seem to me to be getting less attention than they deserve:

Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security


Anyone else notice the "disable encryption" option in disk utility? wondering exactly what that's for...
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