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Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
#16476 07/12/11 04:06 PM
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Office network 4 Macs still running 10.4 Tiger. Shock horror, call me crazy if you wish.

Why? Because it works! There must be thousands (tens of thousands?) of other Tiger-users still out there, just like us.

Last time I bought replacement Macs, I installed Tiger onto them. Now I'm considering replacing the replacements, because one of them has a small screen and the other is so noisy (it's a "windtunnel" tower). But they both work fine, as do the other two flat-screen iMacs.

The main reason for never upgrading OS from Tiger is that all our applications work, and I'm the scaredy type who will never forget the horrific nightmare of getting off OS9 and onto OSX a couple of years ago. This is an office, not leisure use.

Applications in daily use: AppleWorks believe it or not, in daily use. Pages and Numbers. DeltaGraph. FileMaker Pro. Some MS like Excel and Word but only when in extremis because people have sent us things in those applications and require translation back to them, in reply. All the others are regulars like Firefox, Mail, iPhoto. I use IE occasionally for one website which does not work on Firefox.

So here's the crazy question: when* I source two more Macs as replacements, they'll come with Leopard or higher.

Go through another potential nightmare of upgrading entire office to higher than 10.4, or just go ahead and instal 10.4 on them when I get around to sourcing the replacement Macs? I'm looking at Amazon for good deals - not brand new ones.

*there's no rush but we have the cash atm, and the (1) small screen and (2) noise from the windtunnel are beginning to bug me.

Hope you can make sense of all that. Thanks.

Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16477 07/12/11 06:27 PM
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Just remember that Macs that shipped with Leopard or higher installed cannot be downgraded to Tiger.

If you want to run Tiger on your "new" Macs you'll have to buy machines that shipped with Tiger or lower.


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In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16478 07/12/11 06:42 PM
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Operator Headgap sells refurbished G4's, & G5's

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Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
artie505 #16482 07/13/11 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
Just remember that Macs that shipped with Leopard or higher installed cannot be downgraded to Tiger.

If you want to run Tiger on your "new" Macs you'll have to buy machines that shipped with Tiger or lower.


Great Gods, artie, I didn't know that!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you!!

er, why are the undowngradeable? What's the rationale?

Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16485 07/13/11 01:59 PM
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Quote:
why are the undowngradeable? What's the rationale?

Only in very rare and very limited circumstances will any Mac boot from an OS version earlier than the version it shipped with. This is enforced by firmware in the logic board and code in the operating system.

This has been said before, but Apple support for hardware and software is a seven year sliding window. As new technologies such as Thunderbolt, gestures, and iCloud enter on the leading edge, support for older technologies like Rosetta, and ATA drop off the back. This helps to keep Apple hardware and software lean and clean. They aren't dragging the dross of previous generations along ad infinitum. This contributes to Apple's ability to turn a new OS release around in 18 months as opposed to Microsofts five years. Along with other technologies it also means Apple is able to sell OS X 10.7 (Lion) for $29.

Staying with Tiger is, of course, your choice but you need to consider that there will progressively be less and less support for the applications (Tiger is already obsolete and there are no more security updates) you are using and when you eventually make the leap to newer hardware and a newer OS the jump will be substantially greater and inevitably more traumatic. Personally I made the choice long ago to intentionally keep all my software including the OS current. With very few exceptions, upgrades have been non-events for me personally because of that. On the other hand most major upgrades result in a flood of cry for help from my Apple using friends who have allowed their OS and/or software fall behind the times. Far too often these lapses have resulted in some degree of data loss. You mentioned you are still using Appleworks, which in its time was a good office suite but Apple held wake for AW several years ago and I know a LOT of people who are only now realizing they have a lot of valuable data in AW files and either no way to convert the data or a long and painful process will be required to convert the data to a modern format. That is exacerbated by their realization their old copy of AW is not going to run in Lion or in a couple of cases I know of, their old copy of AW has become corrupted and is close to, or may be, irreplaceable. Think about it.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
joemikeb #16488 07/13/11 03:02 PM
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You're right, Joe, and I know you're right. Thank you very much for the long helpful reply. This thread has already saved me a lot of grief - but there's more to come, I can see.

Since I'm it here, have to do it all myself and feel really alone sometimes (no big IT support department, just internet forums like this one), it takes me a long time to do all the research and preparation for major changes - and costs me in stress/responsibility on shoulders, too.

So should I take the office from 10.4 to 10.5 or 10.6? The dominant part of the decision is not keeping up with current OSs, but keeping the office running.

I'm sorry to ask what may be silly questions to you, but what are the major differences to the user, between Tiger and Leopard or Snow Leopard? My boss is what you might call 'new learning-averse' but will learn when he has to, of course.

Re Appleworks, I now maintain the customer database on both AW and Filemaker, but honestly find AW far more intuitive, easier, quicker, less "stubborn" in doing simple things (like copying a database record from one DB to another: in AW you just control-C control-V; in Filemaker you have to make sure the databases are both displayed in exactly the same way (list, labels, data entry for instance) and then Export the record/s, then switch to target DB and Import them. What a lot of error-prone and time-wasting fuss.)

For the same reason - ease of use - I am also still using AW to generate all our invoices. I can bang out 20 invididual invoices in as long as 5 minutes. I had a go at formatting Filemaker to generate identical invoices but gave up trying to re-invent the wheel. I suppose I should put in another hundred hours at the Filemaker treadmill to make it do something which AW already does superbly, but it makes my heart sink, to be honest.



Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16489 07/13/11 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bensheim
I'm sorry to ask what may be silly questions to you, but what are the major differences to the user, between Tiger and Leopard or Snow Leopard?
I can't pretend to tell you all of the differences but for me, the major improvement over Tiger is Time Machine. True, you can back up manually if you like, but TM has numerous advantages. In addition, 10.5 and 10.6 seem to be more stable. Not that 10.4 had problems, but I find hardly any directory errors popping up in 10.6 and I got some (not many, but some) in 10.4 when I ran Disk Warrior.


Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
jchuzi #16490 07/13/11 03:47 PM
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Here we go.......both the Macs-to-be-replaced, it turns out, are PowerPCs, not Intels.

So they'd both have to be replaced anyway, to run Snow Leopard.

I'm glad that's already been identified!

I'm now working my way through Apple and 3rd party websites to see what software will and will not be ok after the what-looks-inevitable OS upgrade.

Apple themselves say that iWorks08 will be fine.
DeltaGraph themselves say ditto.
Am now checking Filemaker.

It's like a ship (I've just told my boss). If one part does not work, the whole ship will not float.

I've also learned that grey instal disks go with that particular machine; black instal disks (retail) are not machine-specific. Is that right?

Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16491 07/13/11 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bensheim
I've also learned that grey instal disks go with that particular machine; black instal disks (retail) are not machine-specific. Is that right?
That's right.


Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16500 07/13/11 08:30 PM
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Quote:
So should I take the office from 10.4 to 10.5 or 10.6? The dominant part of the decision is not keeping up with current OSs, but keeping the office running.

I presume you are referring to Microsoft Office? If so your Microsoft Office license is limited to running on only one computer at a time. If they are on the same network you will not be able to launch two copies of the same Office installation. So you would need to take a copy of Office from one of the machines you are replacing.

Apple products are licensed for installation and use on a single Macintosh computer but but they have not been draconian in enforcing their license agreements — yet. Apple software has previously been available in a "family pack" that was/is legal for installation on five computers in the same household Unfortunately in your case the "family pack" license specifically excludes business and dormitory environments. However all this is changing with the advent of the App Store beginning in OS X 10.6.6(?).

Apple and third party applications purchased through the Apple App Store (not to be confused with the very similar iTunes App Store for iDevices such as the iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch) license permits the apps to be installed on up to five authorized devices for no additional charge. However I do not know offhand what the limitations, if any, are on authorized devices. The App Store alone might be a good reason for you to upgrade to Snow Leopard or Lion. While it only works on the latest versions of Snowy and will be the means of distributing Lion, the App Store will at least semi-uatomatically keep the OS and all applications purchased through the App Store up to date virtually painlessly and could save you a lot of trouble.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16516 07/14/11 03:47 PM
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that's a plus and a minus with macs.. they can remain useful for a very long time, but that applies less pressure on users to periodically upgrade, businesses in particular.

do not continue to put it off by buying used machines. It's a very well-proven rule that the longer you wait, the more painful the inevitable upgrade will be. I have horror stories I can tell if you need to hear them. They're long, ugly, and very expensive. If you have a PHB that doesn't want to pry open the checkbook, do a cost-analysis that takes into account lost productivity due to using older hardware and software, downtime that will result when a massive upgrade is finally required, retraining on new software that has to be steeply upgraded, lost resale value of replaced equipment, lost productivity due to difficulty of accessing older documents due to large software version gaps, all in addition to the huge hardware/software pill they will have to swallow all at once.

Bottom line it like this: you can spend $2,500 a year on periodic upgrades. Or you can hold off to save money, and instead spend $20,000 in combined expenses (plus and 1-2 months of chaos and low productivity) every six years. (Or something like that) Even the numerically-challenged can work that out in their head.


I work for the Department of Redundancy Department
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
joemikeb #16519 07/14/11 04:52 PM
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Thank you for the long note Joe, but no, I was referring to the office in which we work (as in opening post). I only use MS stuff if unavoidable etc.

Thanks again.

Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Virtual1 #16520 07/14/11 05:03 PM
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Thanks for your reply, Virtual, and I know exactly what you mean.

More research today reveals that AW will run in Snow Leopard, I found that out from here:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2116594?start=15&tstart=0

then here:

http://www.wilmut.webspace.virginmedia.com/notes/aw/page1.html

which tells me that it can't run directly on Intel Macs, and requires Rosetta (in effect a PPC emulator built into OSX) and further that in 10.6 (Snow Leopard), Rosetta is not included by default but there is an option in the installer for the user to include it or it could be automatically downloaded by the system if needed at a later time.

So therefore I could source two new (or nearly-new) Macs for our office (where we work) already running Snow Leopard, and gain some time on converting my workhorse AW functions like invoicing to some other, worse IMO, application.

I've also seen and quickly read down a thread here on the demise of Rosetta, and it won't run under Lion. OK, but nevertheless it seems to me that I do have some time in hand now (months) to (A) buy new kit; and (B) put in all the hours required by me to re-invent the wheel and transfer invoicing to different s/w.


Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16521 07/14/11 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bensheim
More research today reveals that AW will run in Snow Leopard
I don't know if this applies to you, but a friend got a new computer (several months ago) with Snow Leopard pre-installed. I migrated everything from her old computer (running Tiger), including AppleWorks. AW itself ran OK but as soon as she updated the printer drivers for her HP printer, she couldn't print from AW. Eventually, she bought Pages and now uses that app.



Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
jchuzi #16522 07/14/11 09:29 PM
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sadly, it comes down to Apple never providing an option for the wonderful, easy database that is in Appleworks.

Spreadsheets are powerful but really can't meet the needs of a good database program.


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Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
jchuzi #16523 07/14/11 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: jchuzi
AW itself ran OK but as soon as she updated the printer drivers for her HP printer, she couldn't print from AW.

I have Appleworks with Snow Leopard but my printer is a Canon Pixma IP5000. I don't have any printing issues.

However I wonder (and those more knowledgeable than I can jump in) if it has to do with the printer or whether it's the way I got to Snow Leopard. Your friend went straight from Tiger to Snow Leopard whereas I went through all the OS iterations, bringing Appleworks along with me.

If that is the case, it is logical that Bensheim should think about starting with an earlier OSX move from OS9 and go through a couple of bounces? The bounces should be easy enough, as they're just upgrades, and he will have done his wheel re-invention in the initial move.

Just a thought.

ryck

Last edited by ryck; 07/14/11 10:27 PM.

ryck

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Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16525 07/14/11 11:06 PM
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I found that going from 10.4 to 10.5 was easy and painless. I had no difficulty at all; all my apps ran smoothly without complaint, and the OS install was absolutely effortless. I think that upgrading 10.4 to 10.5 is a pain-free and hassle-fee and brings significant improvements to the table.

On the other hand, upgrading my machines from 10.5 to 10.6 wasn't quite as painless. It did give me back quite a bit of disk space--in a radical departure from how operating systems normally go, OS 10.6 is smaller and lighter than 10.5. But I've had weird, intermittent problems with Photoshop (I use Adobe Creative Suite 2, and it's not really fully compatible with 10.6), I found a small number of obscure apps that didn't run, and there were some other minor issues and rough spots along the road. It was worth the upgrade to me, but it wasn't painless.

10.7 is going to create a lot of pain for a lot of people, I think. The fact that 10.7 will drop support for PowerPC applications is significant. There's a lot of PowerPC code lurking in quite a few systems; for example, the Canon printer/scanner I have has PowerPC scanner software, even though it's relatively new.

If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely move up to 10.5, though I might think twice about 10.6 and wouldn't be planning to go to 10.7 just yet.


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Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
jchuzi #16528 07/15/11 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted By: jchuzi
Originally Posted By: Bensheim
More research today reveals that AW will run in Snow Leopard
I don't know if this applies to you, but a friend got a new computer (several months ago) with Snow Leopard pre-installed. I migrated everything from her old computer (running Tiger), including AppleWorks. AW itself ran OK but as soon as she updated the printer drivers for her HP printer, she couldn't print from AW. Eventually, she bought Pages and now uses that app.



Can I take it (as you said migrated from Tiger) that Tiger and Snow Leopard machines can see each other on the network, i.e., are file-transferrable?

I hope so, otherwise it makes another problem.........

Plan is to buy 2 new (have decided on new, now) Macs which will come with SL pre-installed. Unpack one and put it on network. Transfer all working files from a to-be-discontinued Tiger, to the new SL Mac. (Also instal 3rd party software.)

If you say there's no problem, yes, they will be able to see each other and share files; then that will just leave upgrading the 2 Tiger macs which are not going to be replaced. Will the instal/system disks which come with the NEW machines, instal SL on them, or do I have to ALSO buy SL black/retail discs?

Many thanks for all the help so far, which is excellent.

Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
ryck #16529 07/15/11 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: ryck


If that is the case, it is logical that Bensheim should think about starting with an earlier OSX move from OS9 and go through a couple of bounces? The bounces should be easy enough, as they're just upgrades, and he will have done his wheel re-invention in the initial move.

Just a thought.

ryck


Hi Ryck, I'm afraid I don't understand this paragraph.

Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
tacit #16530 07/15/11 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: tacit
I found that going from 10.4 to 10.5 was easy and painless. I had no difficulty at all; all my apps ran smoothly without complaint, and the OS install was absolutely effortless. I think that upgrading 10.4 to 10.5 is a pain-free and hassle-fee and brings significant improvements to the table.

On the other hand, upgrading my machines from 10.5 to 10.6 wasn't quite as painless. It did give me back quite a bit of disk space--in a radical departure from how operating systems normally go, OS 10.6 is smaller and lighter than 10.5. But I've had weird, intermittent problems with Photoshop (I use Adobe Creative Suite 2, and it's not really fully compatible with 10.6), I found a small number of obscure apps that didn't run, and there were some other minor issues and rough spots along the road. It was worth the upgrade to me, but it wasn't painless.

10.7 is going to create a lot of pain for a lot of people, I think. The fact that 10.7 will drop support for PowerPC applications is significant. There's a lot of PowerPC code lurking in quite a few systems; for example, the Canon printer/scanner I have has PowerPC scanner software, even though it's relatively new.

If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely move up to 10.5, though I might think twice about 10.6 and wouldn't be planning to go to 10.7 just yet.


Hi Tacit, the new machines will come with 10.6.

Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16531 07/15/11 10:16 AM
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> Plan is to buy 2 new (have decided on new, now) Macs which will come with SL pre-installed.

Bear in mind that it's crunch-time... With the imminent release of Lion, the supply of new Macs with Snow Leopard pre-installed will probably not last long, particularly in view of the fact that major users of PPC apps may decide to buy new now to avoid buying, i.e. being stuck with, Lion later.

> Will the instal/system disks which come with the NEW machines, instal SL on them, or do I have to ALSO buy SL black/retail discs?

The discs that come with any Mac install at least the latest operating system (*) (**) plus bundled software; there is no need to buy black discs other than to upgrade your current version of OS X.

(*) The have been instances, and we may see another of them soon, in which Macs with one version of OS X pre-installed that were sold immediately after the release of a new version of OS X came with upgrade, not install discs. (Edit 2: Hmmm... I wonder if upgrades, if made available, will be available other than through the Mac App Store? Same issue with dial-up and bandwidth caps, though, I guess.)

Edit: (**) The latest version of OS X as of the date of manufacture, that is.

Last edited by artie505; 07/15/11 10:24 AM.

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Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16533 07/15/11 11:01 AM
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Bensheim,

Are the two machines currently running Tiger PowerPCs?

If so, then they do not support Snow Leopard which can only be installed on a Mac with an Intel processor.
Quote:
. . . then that will just leave upgrading the 2 Tiger macs which are not going to be replaced. Will the instal/system disks which come with the NEW machines, instal SL on them . . . ?

The discs which ship with a new Mac are machine specific. It is unlikely that they will boot and install an operating system and bundled apps on other machines. There is also the Software License Agreement.

I have no experience with network file sharing between Tiger and Snow Leopard and cannot answer that question.


Back up everything you can't afford to lose: documents, mail, movies, music, photos, and other data and settings.
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16534 07/15/11 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bensheim
Can I take it (as you said migrated from Tiger) that Tiger and Snow Leopard machines can see each other on the network, i.e., are file-transferrable?
I did this via Firewire.


Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
Bensheim #16536 07/15/11 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bensheim
Originally Posted By: ryck


If that is the case, it is logical that Bensheim should think about starting with an earlier OSX move from OS9 and go through a couple of bounces? The bounces should be easy enough, as they're just upgrades, and he will have done his wheel re-invention in the initial move.

Just a thought.

ryck


Hi Ryck, I'm afraid I don't understand this paragraph.

Ah, perhaps that's because it turns out to be goofy as hell.

I was thinking that you could ease through Panther, Leopard, et cetera and take Appleworks with you as you go through the OS upgrades. I was recalling that I bought Panther in 2006, Leopard in 2008 and Snow in 2009 - and thinking that these might still be available (i.e. inside a seven year window).

I've now looked at the Apple site and they don't have any of the older systems so that thought is out. I guess the more knowledgeable folks were too polite to reply to my post with: "ryck, have you been drinking?"

If anyone's looking for me, I'll be in the corner wearing the pointy hat.

ryck

Last edited by ryck; 07/15/11 12:01 PM.

ryck

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Re: Call me crazy but we're still on 10.4 Tiger
dianne #16537 07/15/11 12:23 PM
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Hi Dianne,

Yes, see msg 16490 further up.


Re disks, Artie says "The discs that come with any Mac install at least the latest operating system (*) (**) plus bundled software; there is no need to buy black discs other than to upgrade your current version of OS X."

Confused now.

Last edited by Bensheim; 07/15/11 12:26 PM.
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