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#15982 - 06/10/11 04:09 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: dkmarsh]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Is Relaunch really just a GUI front end to killall Finder, though? At an earlier point in time, you thought so, but experimentation suggested otherwise.

Weird! I did write that, but I don't remember the experiment.

I had done a simple test just before posting my earlier reply above, in case behavior had changed since the last time I checked remember checking.

So, I did some more extensive tests. The primary test is: change something in the interface (move a window, change a view, navigate a window to a different folder, etc.), quit and restart Finder by whatever method, and see if that latest change got preserved. The four methods I tested were:

1. Use an AppleScript to 'tell application "Finder" to quit'
2. Use option-right-click on Finder's Dock icon, and select "Relaunch Finder"
3. Select Finder from Activity Monitor, click "Quit Process", and then click "Quit"
4. Select Finder from Activity Monitor, click "Quit Process", and then click "Force Quit"

In methods 1 and 3, Finder quits and stays quit. You can restart it by clicking on its Dock icon. All changes are saved and restored. Nothing noteworthy shows in Console.

In methods 2 and 4, Finder quits but immediately relaunches. Recent changes are almost always lost. Once in a blue moon, a recent change will be preserved. That's probably what I saw in the quoted experiment. There is a message in Console, from "com.apple.launchd.peruser.501[pid1]" notifying that "(com.apple.Finder[pid2]) Exited: Terminated", where pid1 is the instance of launchd handling LaunchAgents on my behalf, and pid2 is the particular instance of Finder that was running.

To verify that Finder is being run as a LaunchAgent, I found:
/System/Library/LaunchAgents/com.apple.Finder.plist
Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<dict>
	<key>RunAtLoad</key>
	<false/>
	<key>KeepAlive</key>
	<dict>
		<key>SuccessfulExit</key>
		<false/>
		<key>AfterInitialDemand</key>
		<true/>
	</dict>
	<key>Label</key>
	<string>com.apple.Finder</string>
	<key>Program</key>
	<string>/System/Library/CoreServices/Finder.app/Contents/MacOS/Finder</string>
	<key>ThrottleInterval</key>
	<integer>0</integer>
</dict>
</plist>

Notice that, as observed, once Finder is launched it is kept active until it exits successfully. That gives us a quicker test: if Finder stays quit, you know it received a quit message; if it comes right back, you know it was killed.

Since Finder is running as a LaunchAgent, we can ask launchd to give us more information, using the command:

launchctl list com.apple.Finder | grep LastExitStatus

After "Quit Finder", the last exit status is 0, as expected.
After "Relaunch Finder", the last exit status is 15, which is SIGTERM.

Note that SIGTERM is the signal that killall uses by default, so yes, "Relaunch Finder" does the same as "Killall Finder" (except that it probably uses launchctl to get Finder's pid and uses that with kill, so as to limit collateral damage in case there's another process also called Finder).

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#15984 - 06/10/11 10:41 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: ganbustein]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
OK, this started bugging me. I kept asking myself questions like, "How could I have never noticed that Finder was a launch agent?"

It occurred to me that maybe my earlier tests were under Tiger, and maybe the situation there was different. It turns out Tiger does not even have a /System/Library/LaunchAgents folder (which I'm pretty sure I had noticed before), nor is there a per-user copy of launchd. The command launchctl list com.apple.Finder and even just launchctl list both come up empty. (You need to use sudo launchctl ... to get any interesting output.)

Nevertheless, although the mechanism is different, the behavior is the same. "Relaunch Finder" and force quit Finder and killall Finder all do the same thing: Finder gets no chance to clean up after itself. It doesn't even get to update how many windows it has open, let alone their size, position, view, or current folder. Only when you 'tell application "Finder" to quit' does it get a chance to clean up and terminate gracefully.

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#15987 - 06/11/11 04:36 AM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: ganbustein]
dkmarsh Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
It turns out Tiger does not even have a /System/Library/LaunchAgents folder...

My installation of Tiger does (10.4.11, Build 8S165), but it's empty.
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#16007 - 06/11/11 05:40 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: ganbustein]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I believe that it apples to all applications. Quit and force-quit are different in terms of saved work. If I recall correctly, in some older Mac OS versions finder relaunch was actually called force-quit.


Edited by macnerd10 (06/11/11 05:41 PM)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16011 - 06/12/11 12:21 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: macnerd10]
ganbustein Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
I believe that it apples to all applications. Quit and force-quit are different in terms of saved work.


Yes, for (almost) all applications they're very different, and I cringe every time I see someone casually suggest kill or killall. It's not just whether the application gets a chance to save its work; if you kill an application while it's in the middle of updating a file, for example in the middle of saving your work, that update is left only half-done, and the file itself is probably corrupted.

Unix has always supported the notion of signals (man 3 signal) as a way to notify an application that something has happened outside. Programs can register to "trap" these signals, and take special action when they occur. A signal that a program does not trap usually causes the program to be aborted; that is, to terminate immediately without finishing whatever it was in the middle of doing. That depends on the signal though; some signals are benign, sent on an FYI basis, and do nothing if not trapped.

The most common signals sent by a user are:

SIGHUP (hangup): originally meant the controlling terminal has hung up. Many programs, by convention, trap SIGHUP and interpret it as "reload preferences, and continue". For example, web servers and other daemons often interpret SIGHUP as a signal that they should check their config files because they've probably changed. Few if any Macintosh programs trap SIGHUP, and will terminate on receiving one.

SIGTERM (terminate): the program should terminate as quickly as possible. This can be trapped, so a program can do cleanup first. If not trapped, it is terminated immediately. Few if any Macintosh applications trap SIGTERM; Unix shells routinely do. Finder, in particular, does not. SIGTERM is the default signal sent by kill, killall, and force quit. kill and killall will send a different signal on request.

SIGKILL (kill): the program terminates instantly. This cannot be trapped. Its main use is to terminate a program that is trapping and ignoring SIGTERM. (For example, the shutdown(8) command sends a SIGTERM to all running applications. If they don't terminate quickly enough, shutdown follows up with SIGKILL.)

SIGINT (interrupt): meant to tell the program to stop what it's doing. For example, by default control-C from a Terminal session sends SIGINT to the current tasks. Your current shell usually traps and ignores this, but child processes also get the SIGINT and usually terminate.


Use of killall makes me especially nervous. Over and above the rudeness of kill is the added fact that its aim is so broad. It kills all processes by the given name, not just the one you think you're killing. For example, killall bash would be frightening, if bash didn't already trap SIGTERM. (You test that at your own risk. I'm afraid to.)

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#16017 - 06/12/11 09:25 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: ganbustein]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Thanks for the explanation! Hope you don't mind my Freudian typo in the previous post (apples instead of applies) :))
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16025 - 06/13/11 01:14 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: kevs]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: kevs
You ever notice that Hal, hardly ever provides much useful information, but spends most of his energy criticizing/analyzing the thread themselves?

WRONG!!!



The remainder of this post has been removed. While you may feel strongly about another poster’s comments, these forums are not the place to settle any non- troubleshooting differences, or to make ad-hominem remarks regardless of whether they may seem justified. Please refrain from any comments that can be taken as such, and focus on the topic at hand: troubleshooting.


Edited by alternaut (06/14/11 10:52 AM)
Edit Reason: Conduct warning
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#16046 - 06/14/11 01:01 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: artie505]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: kevs
You ever notice that Hal, hardly ever provides much useful information, but spends most of his energy criticizing/analyzing the thread themselves?

WRONG!!!



The remainder of this post has been removed. While you may feel strongly about another poster’s comments, these forums are not the place to settle any non- troubleshooting differences, or to make ad-hominem remarks regardless of whether they may seem justified. Please refrain from any comments that can be taken as such, and focus on the topic at hand: troubleshooting.

kevs's post fits your characterization of my post to a T and was not edited, which, in conjunction with your having edited my post, may be construed as (Edit: unwarranted, in my eyes, anyhow) editorial comment on the part of the Mods. confused

PS: kevs's post approached was (Changed after Alex posted.) ad-hominen...my first reaction to it was to report it as such; mine was a statement of fact


Edited by artie505 (06/14/11 04:26 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#16047 - 06/14/11 02:23 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: artie505]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Although I generally agree with your assessment, sometimes it is better just to ignore certain things than escalate them...
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16048 - 06/14/11 02:35 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
Although I generally agree with your assessment, sometimes it is better just to ignore certain things than escalate them...

Thanks for the wisdom, Alex. smile

(You may have noticed, though, that I'm kinda thick-skulled [Edit: not to mention hard-nosed].)


Edited by artie505 (06/14/11 04:28 PM)
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#16051 - 06/14/11 04:40 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: artie505]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
As for me, you are fully excused!
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16052 - 06/14/11 04:41 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: macnerd10]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
As for me, you are fully excused!

cool smile
_________________________
The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#16053 - 06/14/11 04:53 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: artie505]
MacManiac Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Paradise....on the central Ore...
Artie,

I'm gonna make an unModerator-like comment here.....

I'm sorry to see that you have chosen to demonstrate your thick-skulled and hard-nosed character here on the FineTunedMac forums. One of the qualities that I have been proud to mention to all with whom I've discussed this venue has been the level playing field that was embodied here....unlike most of the Windows-centric forums that we have all visited at various points in our collective past experience.

Your recent posts have put the lie to that. Please don't spoil this community for others.
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Freedom is never free....thank a Service member today.

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#16057 - 06/14/11 07:26 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: MacManiac]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
If I may, Artie may have a point or two because the original poster has not come back after some suggestions and did not provide any further info as to whether the problem was remedied or not (I assume that some suggestions were not given a try). I also kind of resent such situations (see them all the time on CNET forums) when people ask questions and then vanish without feedback. Unless, in this case, no real solution was provided and the poster was not satisfied or got upset...


Edited by macnerd10 (06/14/11 07:27 PM)
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16064 - 06/15/11 07:30 AM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: macnerd10]
joemikeb Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
I concur with alternaut's actions and macmaniac's comments. Personal attacks and/or casting aspersions on the actions or motives of another is not acceptable. No matter what anyone else has done, or has not done, two wrongs never make a right.

FWIW I was going to comment on keys' post, but ryck beat me to the punch and his response seemed entirely adequate.
_________________________
joemikeb • moderator

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#16068 - 06/15/11 09:30 AM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: kevs]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: kevs
I have folders where I'm setting to icon view, handful of .dng files. fine art images.
5 of them show an image thumbnail. 5 show a text icon. Any idea why the inconsistency?

As yet unclear is what does the "5" refer to. 5 of the folders or 5 of the files? I.e., are the views in any given folder itself consistent... or are the files being displayed inconsistently within a single folder?

If not the latter...
then I can easily see where this might boil down to a difference in settings for View Options amongst the various folders. I.e., what is the status of the checkbox for Show icon preview when looking at the View Options window of the folders being discussed?


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#16076 - 06/15/11 01:56 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: Hal Itosis]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Good point! However, from his replies to me I assumed that the difference was in files, not folders. On the other hand, your query may well apply to individual files as well; if this is true, would be easy to remedy.
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16090 - 06/16/11 10:02 AM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: macnerd10]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Here is a link:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/screenshot20110616at105.jpg/

Macmaniac, thanks for seeing it the correct way. I've just noticed over the years that Hal and Arite have never solved any of my issues, ever, but they both spend a tonnage of time criticizing and complaining about the posts.
Ganbustein is nice, but I just never understand the replies, but he means well.
I come back to this forum for 3-4 guys who never criticize, and provide brilliant ideas and solutions. Without those few I would be gone.

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#16091 - 06/16/11 10:14 AM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: kevs]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
I would remove the extra numbers in the filenames (they are all different from the format of the files that show pictures) and see if this works. I have seen before files that would not even open in the intended application because of some "forbidden" syntax in the filename. Hal's suggestion about the view options may also be tried.
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16095 - 06/16/11 02:48 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: macnerd10]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
Mac, good observation! those all, I added a text indicting something to me. That should be it, but I tested one, got rid of the text opened in PS yet the icon remained text. But you may be onto something, does not test out yet...

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#16098 - 06/16/11 03:22 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: kevs]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: kevs
I've just noticed over the years that Hal and Arite have never solved any of my issues, ever, but they both spend a tonnage of time criticizing and complaining about the posts.

I don't know which "years" you're referring to... i've been a member starting at MacFixIt in 1999. When i've criticized your posts it's because they often contain vague descriptions. But most of all, there's a definite sense that you consistently put as little effort as possible into the matter.

So yeah... if you're looking to play 20 questions (since the descriptions are so lame), then i'm not your guy.

What you don't seem to appreciate is that issues in some thread you've started don't necessarily belong to you exclusively... and i'm just as concerned about the next person that lands here (via google or whatever) who has the same issue.

Also, your reluctance to run Terminal commands disqualifies your judgements about the help i've provided. It's you who failed to follow my advice (tons of times).

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#16099 - 06/16/11 03:24 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: kevs]
tacit Offline


Registered: 08/03/09
Loc: Portland, Oregon, USA
The screenshot suggests that some of the .dng files have previews embedded inside of them and some don't.

My understanding of DNG files is that the Finder can not view them directly; it doesn't understand the file format. So it relies on whatever program creates them to place a preview inside the file which Finder can understand. If it finds a preview, it shows that preview as the icon; if it doesn't find a preview, it shows the generic DNG icon. It looks to me like some of your DNG files contain previews and some don't.
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#16103 - 06/16/11 04:35 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: tacit]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
This is a very fine observation! Does that mean if the file is opened in PS, then saved in a different format that Finder could recognize, the preview would be possible? Another question: how does the preview information get built-in? Is it some kind of raw format glitch or peculiarity?
_________________________
Alex
3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#16105 - 06/16/11 05:13 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: macnerd10]
kevs Offline


Registered: 12/07/09
ok Hal.

Tacit, ok, but these were all taken in same month. I'm not sure why the ones I added some text to don't have the preview.
Any idea to know why one has a preview and ones does not?

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#16109 - 06/16/11 09:53 PM Re: Icon view, some showing thumb, some not [Re: macnerd10]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
I would remove the extra numbers in the filenames (they are all different from the format of the files that show pictures) and see if this works. I have seen before files that would not even open in the intended application because of some "forbidden" syntax in the filename.

Well... it is almost certainly no coincide that the very files which lack a preview in Finder also all contain the [same] string-5MB-filein their name.

I don't know what the exact reason is (and confess my interest is now waning), but tend to think that it indicates some sort of special option(s) for saving a reduced-size file... which might intentionally omit the preview info that Finder (or whatever) needs.

[probably a little RTFM about the particular app in question would help]

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