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#15423 - 05/04/11 12:23 PM Downloading Lion (OS 10.7)
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
According to the article entitled Apple to release Mac OS X Lion through Mac App Store - sources, Lion will be available via download rather than on DVD. The article speculates about Apple's phasing out optical disk drives but I have another question:

What happens with Disk Utility et al.? Will the need to boot from a DVD be obviated when you want to run Repair Disk, erase a drive, change a password, etc., because of fundamental changes in the utilities and/or the OS?

Thoughts?
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OS 10.14.2, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#15426 - 05/04/11 01:52 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: jchuzi]
Pendragon Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Georgetown, Texas, USA
I suppose this will reduce the number of pirated copies of the OS (and that is fine IMNHO), but I will, alas, await until I know if: "...it's logical to presume that Apple will also offer an optical disc for people who may not have broadband."

OTOH, I have DW and TTP resident on multiple volumes so I (almost) never use the OS DVD.
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27" i7 iMac (10.13.6), iPhone Xs Max (12.1)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#15427 - 05/04/11 02:02 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: jchuzi]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
A while back I speculated that the restrictions Apple has imposed on even 99¢ apps suggested the possibility of similar restrictions on OS X, possibly even beginning with Lion, and awaaay we go!

Further, but not exclusively, what happens to your CD/DVD collection?

It seems like Apple's business model is more and more directed towards strong-arming users into buying hardware.

Edit: And, of course, there will only be one OS X vendor in the entire world...kinda puts a lid on competition, no?


Edited by artie505 (05/04/11 02:12 PM)
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#15428 - 05/04/11 02:26 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
It seems like Apple's business model is more and more directed towards strong-arming users into buying hardware.

I disagree.

I think Apple's business model is providing an integrated user experience which incorporates new means of interacting with hardware and software whenever such new means allow that integrated user experience to be significantly improved.

If old means of interacting can be preserved without providing a drag on forward-looking developments, they typically are (hence Classic, Rosetta, etc.). But if maintaining older approaches compromises the effectiveness of newer features, the older approaches get axed.

AFAICT, it's always been that way, or at least during the 18 years I've been a Mac user, and particularly during the second reign of Steve Jobs. You may argue that what constitutes an "improved" user experience is debatable, but the market's reception to Apple's hardware and software products and services suggests that a very large number of users don't share your concern.
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#15696 - 05/23/11 06:58 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
Further, but not exclusively, what happens to your CD/DVD collection?

The same thing that happened to Edison cylinders, 78, 45, and 33⅓ vinly recordings, not to mention wire, reel to reel, 8 track and cassette audio tapes, 8 and 16mm films, as well as Beta, and VHS video tape and while we are at it 35mm transparencies, and film cameras. Many pundits are already positing that video downloads have made Blueray obsolete before it has made any significant market penetration.

Originally Posted By: artie505
It seems like Apple's business model is more and more directed towards strong-arming users into buying hardware.

Given the fact that Apple is first and foremost a hardware manufacturer why should you or anyone else be surprised at this? In a previous attempt at allowing third parties to manufacture Apple Computers, Apple came within a hairs breadth of going into bankruptcy because every clone Apple that was sold cost Apple $50 out of pocket and that did not include missed sales opportunities. Apple's recent financial ascendency has been based almost entirely on hardware design and sales. Software and tunes are merely icing on the cake or a means to sell the hardware. If it weren't for hardware there would be no Apple Computer.

The software download model has been wildly successful on the iPod Touch, iPhone, and iPad. To quote dkmarsh
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Apple's business model is providing an integrated user experience which incorporates new means of interacting with hardware and software whenever such new means allow that integrated user experience to be significantly improved.
So as a customer and as a stockholder, its migration to the OS X desktop seems to me a logical and entirely rational extension of that success. My only question is how long will it take Microsoft, Dell, HP, et. al. to figure out how to do it as well.

Originally Posted By: artie505
And, of course, there will only be one OS X vendor in the entire world...kinda puts a lid on competition, no?

As far as I know Microsoft is the only Windows vendor in the entire world….that too kinda puts the lid on competition, no?

Frankly as I look at the number and breadth of apps avialable through the iTunes app store and the OS X App Store I am seeing this model coupled with the free, easy to use developer tools provided by Apple is expoosing Apple users to a wider variety of apps, more options, more developers, a more coherent UI, and all at an unprecedented low cost. If you don't think all of this isn't scaring the socks off of Apple's competition think again.


Edited by joemikeb (05/23/11 06:59 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
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#15714 - 05/24/11 11:06 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
OK... So I'm a luddite and a non-visionary, both of which I'm happy with. grin If I were a PC user I'd likely still be bemoaning the loss of DOS, much the same as I don't particularly like the direction in which Apple is apparently headed.

> As far as I know Microsoft is the only Windows vendor in the entire world….that too kinda puts the lid on competition, no?

What I meant is when I search for Windows vendors I find any number of them, and same goes for OS X...today, but if Apple restricts OS X d/l's to the App Store there'll only be one vendor/source.
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#15715 - 05/25/11 09:24 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
OK... So I'm a luddite and a non-visionary, both of which I'm happy with. grin

No argument here. grin
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#15798 - 05/30/11 02:30 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: joemikeb]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.2, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#15808 - 05/30/11 02:58 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: jchuzi]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)

Hmm, i wonder if we can "point" the "installer" towards another volume... or if it will only place Lion on the current boot volume.

Please tell me that DVDs will also be available.

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#15810 - 05/30/11 03:02 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis

Hmm, i wonder if we can "point" the "installer" towards another volume... or if it will only place Lion on the current boot volume.

Please tell me that DVDs will also be available.

I hear an echo!
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#15812 - 05/30/11 03:15 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis

Hmm, i wonder if we can "point" the "installer" towards another volume... or if it will only place Lion on the current boot volume.

Please tell me that DVDs will also be available.

I hear an echo!

Being a seasoned iOS user (both iPad and iPod), i know the pain of downloading OS updates. I have bottom-of-the-barrel DSL... so even the paltry 680 meg iOS takes me almost 3 hours to download... and we have to download the *full* deal every time (not a delta, not a combo... the whole megillah). And since iPad ≠ iPod, i have to do that twice.

How many gigs will the Lion download be?

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#15813 - 05/30/11 03:35 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
I've just upped my DSL to 7Mb, which translates to a bit under 800Kbps at best, and even at that speed a 7Gb (around what an SL disc is) d/l will take too long!

Installing to a pristine volume and imaging the results for future use seems like a nice idea, but I doubt we'll be able to do it. frown

I guess my non-visionary persona extends to my not having cable. tongue
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#15822 - 05/31/11 09:06 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Well, it's June now.
Where's Lion? (or 10.6.8 even)

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#15824 - 06/01/11 02:41 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: Hal Itosis]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Well, it's June now.
Where's Lion? (or 10.6.8 even)
Apple issues third build of Mac OS X 10.6.8 to developers

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Jon

OS 10.14.2, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#15825 - 06/01/11 07:17 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: jchuzi]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
_________________________
Jon

OS 10.14.2, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#15899 - 06/06/11 07:19 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: artie505]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Originally Posted By: artie505
OK... So I'm a luddite and a non-visionary, both of which I'm happy with. grin If I were a PC user I'd likely still be bemoaning the loss of DOS, much the same as I don't particularly like the direction in which Apple is apparently headed.

There is no apparentlly about it. Did you catch the item in the Keynote that the App Store is already the largest software distributor in the world? Many developers marketing through the App Store are becoming overnight millionaires. Established software developers who have switched to App store distribution have seen sales increases of not 100% but 100 times.

From the reaction of the developers at the WWDC today they appear to be in full support of the direction Apple is taking if for no other reason than, to coin a phrase that Steve repeated several times today" It just works. And in the process it is making a lot of independent developers wealthy.

IMHO not all change is good and I am seldom, if ever, in favor of anything that tends to decrease competition, but so far it seems any shortcomings in the App Store concept are far outweighed by the positives.
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#15900 - 06/06/11 07:37 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: Hal Itosis]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Being a seasoned iOS user (both iPad and iPod), i know the pain of downloading OS updates. <snip> And since iPad ≠ iPod, i have to do that twice.

Reportedly, iOS 5 will unite all (eligible) models and end my multi-iDevice download woe.

However...
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
How many gigs will the Lion download be?

4 gig. "in-place". So i guess it's not a dmg that we can speedily apply to other Macs in-house. Each individual Mac will need to do its own 4-gig download/upgrade.

Folks still running Leopard (who've been holding off on 10.6) will be left out in the cold. They'll need to obtain Snowy first (to get the MAS) in order to move up. I.e., no "direct" Leo->Lion pathway.

Interesting (i guess).

The price is nice: one $30 fee covers all Macs tied to a particular MAS account (user).


Edited by Hal Itosis (06/06/11 07:44 PM)

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#15902 - 06/06/11 10:43 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: joemikeb]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> Many developers marketing through the App Store are becoming overnight millionaires. Established software developers who have switched to App store distribution have seen sales increases of not 100% but 100 times.

Wow! And without even any help from me. smile

I wonder how much of those sales is real, i.e. ongoing, and how much is "euphoric," i.e. people going short-term nuts buying stuff because they now know it's there? (I've read that when iPhones first came out many people who totaled their purchases after the euphoria wore off were flabbergasted by how quickly 99¢-a-pop adds up.)

> IMHO not all change is good and I am seldom, if ever, in favor of anything that tends to decrease competition, but so far it seems any shortcomings in the App Store concept are far outweighed by the positives.

For developers, no argument (apparently), but for us users, I don't know that all the results are in yet.
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

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#15903 - 06/06/11 10:55 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: Hal Itosis]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
> Each individual Mac will need to do its own 4-gig download/upgrade.

That'll require an enormous amount of time, maybe expense, too, for many households; I wonder what the disc policy will be...whether we non-cable luddites will be stuck cooling our heels for hours?
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#15906 - 06/07/11 09:00 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: artie505]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: artie505
...we non-cable luddites will be stuck cooling our heels for hours...

How about people relying on slow satellite or (dare I even remind you) dialup connections? For these and similar concerns, check out today's entries in MacInTouch's Apple Reader Report.
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#15909 - 06/07/11 11:16 AM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: alternaut]
macnerd10 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Can somebody explain what's gonna happen to numerous applications requiring PPC code? I hear that even some parts of Adobe CS5 still have a PPC code and will not, therefore, run under Lion. I also read yesterday that somebody installed Rosetta from SL disk into Lion but it refused to open PPC applications. Any third-party emulator on the horizon? Apple is doing a big monopolist disservice to its loyals.


Edited by macnerd10 (06/07/11 11:17 AM)
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3.1 GHz 13" MacBook Pro 2015, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, TimeWarner Cable
2.8 GHz Xeon Mac Pro 2010, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.11.2, Office 2011, LAN

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#15914 - 06/07/11 01:21 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: macnerd10]
joemikeb Online
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
It sounds as if this comes as a surprise. Assuming you are a follower of Apple you should know Apple has always supported hardware and software on a "sliding scale". The new Mac you buy today will be obsolete and not supported in June 2018. This allows Apple to move their product forward adding new features and functionalities without dragging a too huge tail of old out of date code along. This is one of the reasons Apple can consistently turn a new released of OS X in 18 months while it takes Microsoft 3 to 5 years. It also helps keeps the OS X footprint at a reasonable size and in general contributes to a system that is cleaner, faster, and more efficient. I am only plagerizing a little when I add, "I pass over the fact this contributes to Apple's ability to sell OS X 10.7 for $29.99"

Rosetta was provided in Leopard to allow developers time to rewrite and optimize their code to run on the Intel platform. Rosetta is an optional install in Snow Leopard to ease users pain in updating and modernizing their software. AFIK Apple has not made any secret of their plans to do away with Rosetta and just as support for the PPC was dropped in Snow Leopard, the time has come to drop that support for the applications as well.

If, in fact, there is PPC code embedded in Adobe CS5 applications, that has to be Adobe's problem. Apple has given them plenty of notice of their intentions and if the PPC code is there it is because Adobe chose to leave it there. As far as Adobe's offerings go there are credible alternatives to many of their products in the App Store at a fraction of the cost.

As to what is to happen to all the applications that require PPC code, I can offer some suggestions:
  • Choose not to uprade to Lion or to purchase a new Mac becauese it will have to run Lion
  • Lean on the developer to get on the stick and upgrade the app to 21st centgury technology
  • Replace the app with a newer app from the App Store -- there are literally thousands of them there. For me the hard part is deciding which one to choose and generally at very reasonable prices
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#15915 - 06/07/11 02:42 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: Hal Itosis]
RHV Offline


Registered: 09/19/09
Loc: Winnipeg, Kenora, Palm Springs...
"in place"!!! So I download Lion from the MAS but I can't keep the download as a file as I could if it came to me as a .dmg. That's what "in place" means? If so, what a nuisance!

Okay let's suppose the nuisance. So I've installed Lion on my only Lion capable device -- my late 2009 iMac, having first updated it to 10.6.8. But later I want to do an erase and re-install of Lion on that computer. (Not a restore from my external HD. Don't ask why.)

So do I have to pay another $30 for the second download of Lion?

I think that I've already read that if I have a number of Lion capable physical devices bought from Apple in my name, the one payment of $30 covers downloads of "OS X Lion" (note the changed name) on up to and including five of those devices. But does that mean that I get five downloads (or even two) of Lion on my one and only Lion capable device for $30?

All will be revealed by Apple in the fullness of its time. But what will likely be revealed on this matter? Yeah, I know, speculation is usually a waste of time. But for old retired farts like me speculation is always fun. My guess is that Apple will charge me for the second (and additional) downloads but will also make available a Lion installation disk -- not free of course -- to satisfy many, many different needs or desires. I pity the poor IT guy who has to service 100 Macs from a Lion download to each Mac!



Edited by RHV (06/07/11 02:45 PM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#15918 - 06/07/11 09:29 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: joemikeb]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
As to what is to happen to all the applications that require PPC code,

Heh... some of us (probably you among them) can recall when PPC was the "new thing" and 68K was current. shocked

Same story, different day. smile

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#15919 - 06/07/11 09:39 PM Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) [Re: RHV]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: RHV
So do I have to pay another $30 for the second download of Lion?

Methinks not. Somehow your account at MAS should retain the record that "you" are allowed to own Lion (on any Mac duly linked to that account)... ad infinitum.

Originally Posted By: RHV
I think that I've already read that if I have a number of Lion capable physical devices bought from Apple in my name, the one payment of $30 covers downloads of "OS X Lion" (note the changed name) on up to and including five of those devices. But does that mean that I get five downloads (or even two) of Lion on my one and only Lion capable device for $30?

Again, that's not my read of the situation. I think that "all" Macs linked to that particular iTunes/MAS authorization account are allowed to be Lionized. IOW, it's not as much about selling OS software as it used to be. So —once you've purchased Lion for $30 —if you want to go out and buy 100 Snow Macs and put Lion on them... then go for it, freely. (unlike Microsoft, Apple's cash cow is hardware sales). Have fun authorizing and downloading those 100 upgrades BTW. wink

I think that's true for the OS... but maybe not for suites like iWork.

But honestly... idunno yet.


Edited by Hal Itosis (06/07/11 11:08 PM)

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