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#9724 - 04/30/10 03:44 AM Flash Bashing Express
grelber Offline


Registered: 08/05/09
Loc: North of 49th ||
Might as well stick this item here:

Apple’s Chief Makes Case Against Flash


(It seems that the views from the Flash Bashing Express (phrase coined by David Chartier, see ‘Microsoft echoes Apple’ link below) merit a separate thread. The starting post of this thread, Grelber's reply to this post by Hal Itosis, was detached from the iPad thread. Alternaut)


Edited by alternaut (04/30/10 11:33 AM)
Edit Reason: Reply in 'iPad' started as separate thread by alternaut

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#9725 - 04/30/10 11:20 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: grelber]
alternaut Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09
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#9733 - 05/01/10 02:51 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: alternaut
‘Real’ world follow ups:

This whole issue runs pretty deep. What with patents, licenses, law suits, settlements, fees, "open" standards, documented standards, approved standards, proprietary standards, cross-platform issues, revenue from sales, revenue from advertisments, etc., ... it's one ugly mess.

Good thing the world didn't have to depend on these guys to develop TCP/IP, otherwise there never would have been any Internet. Can't the government fund a couple of geniuses from MIT (or wherever) to get together and crank out a video format + hardware decoder for the world/posterity so we can move forward already?

Anyway, more links to peruse:

[oh, i intentionally left slashdot out of the picture... as FTM is a friendly, family-oriented place. wink ]


Edited by Hal Itosis (05/01/10 03:03 PM)

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#9742 - 05/02/10 11:19 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
[oh, i intentionally left slashdot out of the picture... as FTM is a friendly, family-oriented place.

I know you'll find a few +5's in there from me on the subject.
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#9753 - 05/03/10 11:15 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Virtual1]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Here are a few words from one of the founders of Ansca Mobile, makers of Corona (an iPhone simulator): Thoughts on Apple and Adobe

Surf around that entire site for more info, and check out this Wired article too: Ex-Adobe Engineers Weigh In on Jobs’ Flash Attack

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#9758 - 05/04/10 10:55 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
alternaut Offline

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#9762 - 05/04/10 11:36 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
Feds may launch inquiry into Apple's Flash stance

I thought they were focusing on the "have to use C for store apps" limitation?
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#9782 - 05/05/10 10:35 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Apple vs Adobe: Steve Jobs is Emperor Ming

That article does briefly add in a bit of historical context. So —while we're collecting all the Apple vs. Adobe linkages into one thread —here is another person's overview of the clash:

Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself


Originally Posted By: Virtual1
I thought they were focusing on the "have to use C for store apps" limitation?

True (i believe). Yes, the overall "issue" is actually divided into two areas: Flash Player for web video and Flash Professional developer environment for cranking out cross-platform code. The two often get conflated (or confused) in forum discussions, but that only serves as further evidence of Adobe's omnipresence.

--

What i find most often missing in all the media coverage are references to the fact that Apple/Jobs isn't the only entity dissatisfied with Flash. [e.g., the Free Software Foundation and probably any Linux fan feel about the same, to mention two.] It's just that Apple/Jobs is the most notable figure actually *doing* something about it. So i guess that's where the focus will go... but the full story encompasses a wider swath.


Edited by Hal Itosis (05/05/10 10:55 AM)

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#9783 - 05/05/10 10:38 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Virtual1]
alternaut Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09
I’m not familiar with every avenue potential litigants may be exploring, but some of them don’t look all that promising according to this:
Lawyer: Antitrust move against Apple would 'sink'.
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#9787 - 05/05/10 02:53 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
alternaut Offline

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#9807 - 05/06/10 01:27 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)

--

“And now for something completely different...”

Almost unclassifiable. (unintended satire perhaps?):


Edited by Hal Itosis (05/06/10 02:41 PM)
Edit Reason: don't ask.

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#9809 - 05/06/10 03:01 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
alternaut Offline

Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09


Edited by alternaut (05/07/10 10:48 AM)
Edit Reason: added CIO link
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#9862 - 05/10/10 03:34 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Apple's 'Disruptive' Strategy Targets New Rivals

Watch CNBC's in-depth coverage of Apple all day Tuesday—part of our special week-long series 'American Titans.'
  1. Monday, May 10: Exxon Mobil
  2. Tuesday, May 11:  Apple, Inc 
  3. Wednesday, May 12:  Boeing
  4. Thursday, May 13:  McDonald’s
  5. Friday, May 14: Google


--

This article by RoughlyDrafted's Daniel Eran Dilger describes the multi-faceted dispute, and links to his many other articles detailing the matter:
Why Steve Jobs Loves Adobe Flash


Edited by Hal Itosis (05/10/10 03:40 PM)

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#9884 - 05/11/10 05:30 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Watch CNBC's in-depth coverage of Apple all day Tuesday—part of our special week-long series 'American Titans.'

It's on now as well (8pm EST).

/posted from my iPad.

Edit: more info at planetoftheapps.cnbc.com


Edited by Hal Itosis (05/11/10 05:35 PM)

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#9920 - 05/14/10 11:13 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
alternaut Offline

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#9921 - 05/14/10 04:21 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
This one seem be stirring up the pot significantly:
[Brimelow doesn't need to use the term "lie", as Flash minions are spreading the word everywhere. There may be something fishy behind the scenes... i.e., it's a newer version of Flash, therfore... what Jobs said was probably still true *when* he said it.]


Edited by Hal Itosis (05/14/10 04:26 PM)

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#9945 - 05/16/10 12:02 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
"Flash Works On Touch-Based Devices"

It's not so much a matter of running it, it's an interface implementation problem.

Think of all the flash based games you've played in the past. Think of how you move the mouse around, and for example, a hand or a crosshairs moves, or maybe your guy starts waking toward where you have the arrow now. Or you have to swing the mouse around between targets.

AND then at some point of course you have to click the mouse.

These two operations can be independent because Flash has "mousehover". It means the app can tell where you've moved the mouse to, before you click it. This is a very handy control feature, and not surprisingly, and to no fault of the devs, they use it. A lot. Almost 100% of the time.

Problem. Touch interfaces don't currently have any way to indicate you are say, sweeping your finger across the surface without clicking. As far as the touch interface is concerned, your "mouse button is down" the entire time. This is the primary problem. There's no way to move the pointer on a touch surface without it interpreting a click down. The only way around this is to require the user to do some other additional interaction, like a quick release and tap down. This is something of a hack, but it will suffice for many of the games. BUT it's likely to require a recode of the app to smoothly support.

Second problem, much less frequently noticed. Your finger is in the way. It's often very important to get a very precise position in those games, AND you often need to see when the pointer changes colors, patterns, etc, indicates you're over the thing you can click on etc etc. On a touch interface, your finger is covering the pointer. It doesn't need you to see the pointer because you can't hover anyway. So if you fix hover, you have this new problem. This can also be hacked around by feeding such apps false touch information, such as placing the input 1/4" up from the actual finger location. This would either require a switch on the device or modifying the app.

There are other issues that are also less obvious. A few games have a very real need to intercept when you sweep your cursor over certain things. They could be walls or enemies or whatever. Basically pointer-to-object collision detection. For example, navigate your man through a maze. You can't cheat them because your pointer is always on the screen, and you can't move from A to C without crossing B. Except if you can lift your finger off the touch screen. So this breaks some game dynamics. (your man could teleport to the exit) This too could be hacked around, we could say that if you lift your finger and drop it somewhere else, the ipod feeds a fast hover sweep from A to C, crossing B, and causing whatever that may cause to happen.

So... yes, it can be done, but there are several severe limitations you have to work around. It could be done, and we may yet see it happen, especially if touch interfaces continue to increase in popularity. But these problems cannot be dismissed or ignored. They are legitimate, serious problems to be addressed.
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#9964 - 05/16/10 08:11 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Virtual1]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Second problem, much less frequently noticed. Your finger is in the way. It's often very important to get a very precise position in those games, AND you often need to see when the pointer changes colors, patterns, etc, indicates you're over the thing you can click on etc etc. On a touch interface, your finger is covering the pointer. It doesn't need you to see the pointer because you can't hover anyway. So if you fix hover, you have this new problem.

Very perceptive! (do you have an iPad?) Anyway, you are correct... and that aspect has not been discussed much. Even for insertion point positioning and text selection (such as I just did while editing this post), Apple pops up a little magnifying glass which shows me (from its offset location) the area under my finger. So yes, I would certainly think that any game (or website gateway even) in which any degree of precision when pointing is needed, would also require retooling.

Excellent... I'll keep this in mind now, as I do battle in forum threads.

__


Here are two old articles which provide some perspective (on the Flash topic in general, not the touchscreen issue):

/posted from my iPad


Edited by Hal Itosis (05/16/10 08:33 PM)

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#9991 - 05/18/10 11:26 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
do you have an iPad?

Nope, but I do have an ipod touch, and I use it quite a lot. That's one of the big issues with my use, trying to figure out exactly where it thinks my fat finger is.

I have a flip case for it that comes right up to the edge of the screen left and right, and makes it hard to move the insert to the far left side of the screen because the cover's edge is in the way and I have to sort of mash my finger into the corner where the side of the cover bezel meets the ipod.

My mind tends to fall immediately into "devil's advocate" mode during discussions like this - I tend to analyze problems from all alternate angles trying to spot problems before they get a chance to attack me.
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#10137 - 05/25/10 11:00 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Virtual1]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)

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#10141 - 05/25/10 12:49 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
Virtual1 Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Iowa
I had another revelation when pondering flash on a touch device... lets say you are a man walking on a map. One of the terrain types is swamp. When you walk your man through the swamp, he walks slower.

This works because the position of your mouse or finger on the trackpad is not 1:1 with the movement of the man on the map. You may move your mouse 3" to the right and the man crosses the entire map, or maybe only 1/3 of the map. It works because you are moving the pointer/man, and it's ok for it to move at a different speed (or stop completely) even if your mouse keeps moving. Say you hit a wall and stop. You can continue to move your mouse to the right as the man tries to push through the wall and gets nowhere. Eventually you move your mouse up instead and he continues up.

Now think about how weird that would get on a touch interface. You move your finger past the wall and the man stops at the wall. Your finger continues moving right for several inches as the man "jogs in place". Then you start swiping upward.

Now the man is at a different location on the screen than your finger is.

I have no idea how you'd work around that as a developer. Probably your only sensible solution would be top STOP the movement until the user stopped swiping, and picked up his finger and put it back down on the man and re-acquired control. Clumsy but I suppose doable. Absolutely would require recoding the app.

The same problem would come up with the swamp example above. I can think of several other games where you can get "nommed" by critters that you have to "shake off" or they slow you down or stop you completely. Games like that would have the above issue.
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#10209 - 05/28/10 07:40 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Virtual1]
alternaut Offline

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Registered: 08/04/09
Of related interest: Ted Landau on Solving Flash problems on a Mac.
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#12105 - 09/29/10 09:33 PM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
[ I don't envy you mods/admins here, having to decide what belongs where. wink ]

But I think these go here:
^ some stuff i missed apparently, while away for the summer.

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#12539 - 10/23/10 07:45 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: Hal Itosis]
alternaut Offline

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#12540 - 10/24/10 05:35 AM Re: Flash Bashing Express [Re: alternaut]
dkmarsh Offline
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Registered: 08/04/09

In other third-party plug-in news, looks like Java may be on its way out as well: Apple hints no Java in Lion's tank.
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