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#8331 - 02/11/10 01:56 AM WHY is SnapBack gone?
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Without getting into yet another discussion of its pros and cons, I'd just like to ask whether anybody has any insights into why Apple might eliminate such a feature?

I think it's 100% unlikely that they got negative feedback about SnapBack, one of the highly touted features of the initial Safari release, which has been "missed" on sites other than FTM and which has performed flawlessly for me since day-one.

It's possible that it was a completely arbitrary, dartboard type, decision, made in the interest of eliminating some code.

But I wonder whether it's because it didn't get enough positive feedback, and, if so, precisely how do you post positive feedback to Apple?

Apple's Mac OS X Feedback page, considered together with the "Thanks" page that clicking on "Send Feedback" elicits, makes it painfully clear that positive feedback is not part of its intended purpose, so...?
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#8332 - 02/11/10 04:37 AM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: artie505]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09

Quote:
I think it's 100% unlikely that they got negative feedback about SnapBack...

Whence comes such certainty? Even the National Weather Service meteorlogists were only 90% certain we'd get snow heading into the blizzard we'll be digging out from all morning here.

That aside, I think it's likely that the elimination of SnapBack and its associated code was done in order to accommodate the relocation of the Reload/Stop button and Progress indicator to the right-hand end of the Address field.

Since we don't have access to internal discussions about Safari features and the implementation thereof, it's hard to say how arbitrary that relocation was. (I certainly didn't like it at the time, but now that I'm used to it, I find myself looking in the address bar for Camino's Stop/Reload buttons.) But if you stipulate to the relocation, then it's easy to see that the presence of the SnapBack button there as well would require an untenably complex set of user interface procedures of the sort which are anathema to the Apple design philosophy.

As for what made SnapBack expendable, I'd guess that you're correct that it didn't get a lot of positive feedback. I think one reason for that, beyond the lack of an Apple-provided forum for the expression of same, is that most folks simply weren't aware of its functionality, for two major reasons:
  1. the SnapBack button itself appeared and disappeared with the changing context of the browsing session (similar to the way Back and Forward arrows dim), which discouraged users from forming an understanding of its functionality through empirical observation;

  2. a majority of the type of user for whom SnapBack might have been a natural fit had already implemented its essential functionality much earlier by establishing the habit of preserving pages/tabs which represented significant branching nodes in the navigational tree by opening links contained in such pages/tabs in new pages/tabs.
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#8334 - 02/11/10 05:15 AM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: dkmarsh]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
a majority of the type of user for whom SnapBack might have been a natural fit had already implemented its essential functionality much earlier by establishing the habit of preserving pages/tabs which represented significant branching nodes in the navigational tree [i]by opening links contained in such pages/tabs in new pages/tabs.
That's what I have been doing. I missed Snapback when it was eliminated but it has become second nature to open links in a new tab; I don't have to stop to think about it anymore. Still, I'm happy that Snapback has been retained in the Google search box because that is really convenient (and, in my view, almost essential).
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OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#8344 - 02/11/10 01:44 PM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: jchuzi]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
That's what I have been doing. I missed Snapback when it was eliminated but it has become second nature to open links in a new tab; I don't have to stop to think about it anymore. Still, I'm happy that Snapback has been retained in the Google search box because that is really convenient (and, in my view, almost essential).

Do you ever employ the drop-down menu off the back-arrow button?

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#8348 - 02/11/10 02:44 PM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: Hal Itosis]
jchuzi Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: New York State
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Do you ever employ the drop-down menu off the back-arrow button?

Yes, but I find it more convenient to switch between tabs (usually).
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OS 10.14.3, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365

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#8359 - 02/12/10 01:21 AM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: dkmarsh]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Quote:
I think it's 100% unlikely that they got negative feedback about SnapBack...

> Whence comes such certainty?

From not having typed my complete thought, i.e. having omitted "overwhelming, even substantial."

> [...] I think it's likely that the elimination of SnapBack and its associated code was done in order to accommodate the relocation of the Reload/Stop button and Progress indicator to the right-hand end of the Address field.

[....] But if you stipulate to the relocation, then it's easy to see that the presence of the SnapBack button there as well would require an untenably complex set of user interface procedures of the sort which are anathema to the Apple design philosophy.


After booting into SL and taking a closer look at Safari 4 I now understand that.

To be honest, I never realized that the SnapBack "button" was a button; in my "keyboard-centricity" I took it as no more than a visual indication of the function's implementation. (I'd settle for the keyboard functionality without the eye-candy, but...)

Thanks for your observations and insights; they at least clarify the issue, even if they don't make it the least bit palatable.
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In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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#8364 - 02/12/10 10:27 AM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: artie505]
Hal Itosis Offline


Registered: 09/03/09
Loc: 10.6.8 (build 10K549)
Originally Posted By: artie505
To be honest, I never realized that the SnapBack "button" was a button; in my "keyboard-centricity" I took it as no more than a visual indication of the function's implementation. (I'd settle for the keyboard functionality without the eye-candy, but...)

I don't see how anyone's "workflow" in a browser like Safari could be so dependent on the keyboard. Sure, i use ⌘[ and ⌘T often enough (as well as the spacebar and shift-space, for paging down/up). But most browsing involves the trackpad/mouse for navigation. How do you get into The Lounge? Do you have a specific bookmark for The Lounge, or do you start from the main page and "tab" [tab tab tab tab tab tab tab tab tab tab ...] your way down? smile Manually clicking a link is so basic, i don't see how your focus can remain fixed on the keyboard for any length of time.

Buttons (and, especially useful: menus) on the Bookmarks Bar... how do you access those via keyboard? Seems like this infatuation with snapback may be part of an overall accumulation of bad eccentric habits. I'd really like to observe a typical hour in your web travels... to experience its unique methods of conveyance. [Not exactly the epitome of efficiency i'm guessing. -- Else, perhaps the trackpad/mouse is more central than previously claimed.]


>>> WHY is SnapBack gone?

WHY are so few users even mentioning its “disappearance” (let alone lamenting its “loss”)?


Edited by Hal Itosis (02/12/10 02:38 PM)
Edit Reason: fixed my inaccurate nomenclature (once again)

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#8367 - 02/12/10 05:51 PM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: Hal Itosis]
dkmarsh Offline
Moderator

Registered: 08/04/09
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
How do you get into The Lounge? Do you have a specific bookmark for The Lounge, or do you start from the main page and "tab" [tab tab tab tab tab tab tab tab tab tab ...] your way down? smile

I don't have The Lounge bookmarked, but I do have a bookmark for Active Topics : Past 24 hours - FineTunedMac. Just for fun, I'll outline the steps involved in accessing it without using the mouse:
  1. Type command-option-B to invoke Show All Bookmarks.
  2. Hit tab until an item in the Collections column becomes selected.
  3. Use the up or down arrows to select the Bookmarks Bar item. (A list of Bookmarks Bar items is now displayed in the main column.)
  4. Hit tab until an item in the list of Bookmark Bar items becomes selected.
  5. Use the up or down arrows to navigate to the FTM folder.
  6. Use the right arrow to expand the FTM folder, revealing its contents.
  7. Use the down arrow to navigate to the Active Topics : Past 24 hours - FineTunedMac bookmark.
  8. Type command-down arrow to open the link.
What complicates this procedure even more is that, as with many apps, Safari remembers state in the Show All Bookmarks window, so the specific steps involved are likely to be different each time, depending on how things were left the previous time.

My suspicion is that artie uses a launcher or the like to access bookmarks. (In fact, I found it much simpler to open the bookmark described above by simply hitting command-spacebar, typing "Active Topics," and—since this bookmark happened to be the Top Hit—using the down arrow to select it and hitting Return to open it.)

Still, using the mouse for the simple two-step procedure of clicking on the FTM folder in Safari's toolbar and choosing Active Topics : Past 24 hours - FineTunedMac from the dropdown menu seems at least a magnitude or two simpler.
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#10480 - 06/10/10 11:19 AM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: dkmarsh]
roger Offline


Registered: 08/04/09
Loc: Vermont
jon, didja see this: SnapBack for Safari 5?
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#10490 - 06/10/10 04:47 PM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: roger]
cyn Online

Administrator

Registered: 08/03/09
For anyone who's interested in Jon's response and further discussion of the SnapBack extension: Re: Safari 5, first impressions
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#10495 - 06/11/10 02:16 AM Re: WHY is SnapBack gone? [Re: roger]
artie505 Online


Registered: 08/04/09
Certainly made my day...not to mention tomorrow's project! cool laugh grin
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The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory Of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire

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