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Catalina to Monterey
#61548 05/21/22 05:42 PM
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Hi, All:



A few questions . . .

I am thinking of "upgrading" from Catalina to Monterey.

1. Is there any significant downside to doing so? Do I have to download and install Big Sur first, and then Monterey or can I leap from Catalina to Monterey?

2. My iMAC 2019 has a 1 TB FLASH STORAGE HD. On a previous 2012 HD desktop, I used to do the clean install routine (i.e. nuke). Is there a similar process for FLASH STORAGE drives? If so, what would be the recommended procedures. (P.S. My entire desktop contents are backed up on two separate drives using Time Machine.)

3. If something goes awry, can I revert back to Catalina? If so, how would this be done?

Any other tips?



P.S. Regarding #2 above: I just noticed that JOEMIKEB responded about the "Clean Install" processes when I inquired in December 2020 about Big Sur, so I do not need any info there - unless these procedures have changed since 2020.

Last edited by MG2009; 05/21/22 06:09 PM. Reason: Noticed

Many thanks,
MG2009
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61553 05/21/22 06:40 PM
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The clean install procedure per se changed and you can upgrade directly from Catalina to Monterey without installing Big Sur, but (there is always a but)...
  • Monterey installs the multiple volumes ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE that are essential to the Monterey boot process
  • Monterey is not bootable from an external drive without those volumes ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE
  • Therefore you must install Monterey ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE and in so doing may render a Catalina clone on the external drive unbootable. (I have not tried and cannot verify that statement one way or the other.)
  • You will find instructions on how to revert from Montery to Big Sur or previous in this MacWorld article, this OS X Daily article, and a discussion of the topic in this Apple Discussions thread.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Catalina to Monterey
joemikeb #61554 05/21/22 07:54 PM
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Thanks, again.

I am presuming that the INTERNAL DRIVE installation of Monterey is by default. (That is, I deliberately would have to tell the computer not to do so. smile )

However, I have read the article links you provided about Monterey. Thanks for the heads up! I have a 2019 Intel Mac and Monterey looks like bad news. Glad I asked before initiating the "upgrade."

Would BIG SUR be a better option or should I just stick with CATALINA on this desktop?

Re: Catalina to Monterey
joemikeb #61557 05/22/22 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
The clean install procedure per se changed and you can upgrade directly from Catalina to Monterey without installing Big Sur, but (there is always a but)...
  • Monterey installs the multiple volumes ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE that are essential to the Monterey boot process
  • Monterey is not bootable from an external drive without those volumes ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE
  • Therefore you must install Monterey ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE and in so doing may render a Catalina clone on the external drive unbootable. (I have not tried and cannot verify that statement one way or the other.)
I know that all applies to M-1 Macs, but I didn't think it applied to Intel Macs as well.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61558 05/22/22 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MG2009
I have a 2019 Intel Mac and Monterey looks like bad news.
I'm running Monterey on a 2019 16" (Intel) MacBook Pro, and I've got nothing bad to say about it.

On the other hand, though, I ran into so many issues with Big Sur that I reverted to Catalina and waited for Monterey to upgrade.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Catalina to Monterey
artie505 #61560 05/22/22 03:18 AM
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Artie:

Read the articles in the links. These explain about INTEL vs M1. My take-away is that Monterey and Intel do not "play nice." But do let me know if you have a different take on what the articles are saying . . . I could have misread.

i.e. ARTICLE WITHIN AN ARTICLE : https://www.macworld.com/article/677067/some-monterey-features-dont-work-on-intel-macs.html

Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61563 05/22/22 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MG2009
Read the articles in the links. These explain about INTEL vs M1. My take-away is that Monterey and Intel do not "play nice." But do let me know if you have a different take on what the articles are saying . . . I could have misread.

i.e. ARTICLE WITHIN AN ARTICLE : https://www.macworld.com/article/677067/some-monterey-features-dont-work-on-intel-macs.html

Note that the article you referenced is dated one week after Monterey (macOS 12.0) was released. I don't know about all of the features mentioned but I do know that at least one of them, Universal Control, did not become active on either M1 or Intel Macs until a month or so ago in macOS 12.3. Most of the missing "features" are dependent on hardware functions that simply are not found, or are inadequately supported, on Intel processors. MacOS upgrades commonly have features that are only available on the latest model, and yet to be released, Macs, regardless of who made the processor. This is not a case of Monterey not playing nice with Intel processors (I have an Intel Mac mini running macOS 12.4 quite happily) more like a case of you can't teach an old dog (Intel) new tricks.

We are fifteen days away from Apple's 2022 World Wide Developer's conference and the announcement of macOS 13 with more Gee whiz! features. It is highly likely some, or all, of those features will be Apple Silicone only.

NOTE: Apple long ago announced they will be dropping support for...
  1. Unsigned files
  2. Kernel Extensions in the System space
  3. x86 (Intel) apps

No final support date has been announced yet, but macOS 13 could be the last release supporting either item 1 or 2 on that list.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Catalina to Monterey
artie505 #61565 05/22/22 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by joemikeb
The clean install procedure per se changed and you can upgrade directly from Catalina to Monterey without installing Big Sur, but (there is always a but)...
  • Monterey installs the multiple volumes ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE that are essential to the Monterey boot process
  • Monterey is not bootable from an external drive without those volumes ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE
  • Therefore you must install Monterey ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE and in so doing may render a Catalina clone on the external drive unbootable. (I have not tried and cannot verify that statement one way or the other.)
I know that all applies to M-1 Macs, but I didn't think it applied to Intel Macs as well.

I am unwilling to sacrifice my remaining Intel Mac to test this by removing the internal drive, but the volume structure on it appears to accurately replicate my Studio Max and my interpretation of what Michael Bombich has said about bootable clones (my other guru Eclectic Light is all Apple Silicon now) leads me to believe that it applies to both Intel and Apple Silicon.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61568 05/23/22 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MG2009
Artie:

Read the articles in the links. These explain about INTEL vs M1. My take-away is that Monterey and Intel do not "play nice." But do let me know if you have a different take on what the articles are saying . . . I could have misread.

i.e. ARTICLE WITHIN AN ARTICLE : https://www.macworld.com/article/677067/some-monterey-features-dont-work-on-intel-macs.html
joemike's response is more or less the scholarly, teacherly version of what I'd have posted, but I'll add to it that the only item mentioned in your linked article that I see as possibly not playing nice/a deal breaker is
Originally Posted by Macworld
If you want to use AirPlay to send content to your Mac from an iPhone, iPad, or another Mac, or to use your Mac as an AirPlay speaker, you’ll need a....
because it sounds like if you haven't got the right Mac it may lead to a loss of functionality, which would, indeed, be a deal breaker.

Otherwise, the lack of functionality may be disappointing, but it isn't a case of "not playing nicely," and unless you've found substantive documentation of problems in the underlying OS, i.e., Monterey, I can't see any reason for you to not upgrade. (Nor do I recall any FTM posters reporting any issues that might dissuade you.)


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Catalina to Monterey
joemikeb #61569 05/23/22 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by joemikeb
The clean install procedure per se changed and you can upgrade directly from Catalina to Monterey without installing Big Sur, but (there is always a but)...
  • Monterey installs the multiple volumes ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE that are essential to the Monterey boot process
  • Monterey is not bootable from an external drive without those volumes ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE
  • Therefore you must install Monterey ON THE INTERNAL DRIVE and in so doing may render a Catalina clone on the external drive unbootable. (I have not tried and cannot verify that statement one way or the other.)
I know that all applies to M-1 Macs, but I didn't think it applied to Intel Macs as well.

I am unwilling to sacrifice my remaining Intel Mac to test this by removing the internal drive, but the volume structure on it appears to accurately replicate my Studio Max and my interpretation of what Michael Bombich has said about bootable clones (my other guru Eclectic Light is all Apple Silicon now) leads me to believe that it applies to both Intel and Apple Silicon.
That whets my appetite for some experimentation, but first, may I assume
  1. that as long as any Monterey partition remains on my MBP, the boot volumes remain, i.e., they're not installed on a partition by partition basis, and
  2. that if I erase the pertinent partition or, if necessary, the entire drive they'll be gone, leaving me in the same position I'd be in were I to install a new internal drive?


By the way, this first comes up at this point because until now, the subject of those boot volumes has come up only in the context of your reporting on your M-1 experience.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Catalina to Monterey
artie505 #61572 05/23/22 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
That whets my appetite for some experimentation, but first, may I assume
  1. that as long as any Monterey partition remains on my MBP, the boot volumes remain, i.e., they're not installed on a partition by partition basis, and
  2. that if I erase the pertinent partition or, if necessary, the entire drive they'll be gone, leaving me in the same position I'd be in were I to install a new internal drive?


By the way, this first comes up at this point because until now, the subject of those boot volumes has come up only in the context of your reporting on your M-1 experience.

Okay I have dug deeper and although I am still unwilling to risk destroying either my Studio Max or Intel Mac mini by removing the hard drive my digging has convinced me the differences in Monterey installations on the two platforms are far more different than I had realized. Nor had I recognized possibly significant internal differences between Catalina, Big Sur, and Monterey. I embarrased myself by Ass-U-Meing. blush blush blush

Studio Max (macOS 12.5)

Three physical disk containers (partitions]
  1. iBootSystemContainer with four volumes: iSCPreBoot, Recovery, Hardware, and xART (installable only from another Mac using Apple Configurator 2)
  2. RecoveryOSContainer with two volumes: Recovery & Update (Apparently installed during an Upgrade or Update)
  3. Macintosh HD with six volumes: Macintosh HD, APFS Snapshot, Data, VM, Preboot, Update, & Recovery. (The only container created by either the Monterey installer or the Apple clone utility)


Intel Mac mini

Two APFS Containers:

  1. Customer with 7 volumes: Macintosh HD, Macintosh HD - Data, Preboot, VM, Update, Content-cache, & Recovery
  2. Macintos HD 2 with 7 volumes: Macintosh HD, Macintosh HD - Data, Preboot, VM, Update, Content-cache, & Recovery


NOTES:
  • Using Tinkertool 7.87, which gives the best and most complete view of APFS structures I have found, the encrypted and sealed APFS snapshot that was prominent in Catalina and Big Sur does not appear in Monterey on the Intel Mac but is still visible on the Studio Max. confused I don't know if that is the result of hiding on Monterey's part, a difference in Tinkertool system on Intel and Apple Silicon, or what? But, this is definitely a change between Monterey and its predecessors. i have no idea how profound that difference is, but it appears significant potentially to the point of being separate versions of MacOS.
  • It appears the iBootSystemContainer on Apple Silicon Macs replaces the firmware boot system on Intel machines which could explain the difference in bootability between external clones on Intel and M1 Macs.
  • The partitions/physical disk containers are not created or installed on a partition-by-partition basis but that does not mean reverting to a prevous version of the OS won't erase those partitions when it is installed. I leave that test up to you.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Catalina to Monterey
joemikeb #61574 05/23/22 08:35 PM
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Thank you, joemikeb, for all the EXTRA work you have put into my OP.


Many thanks,
MG2009
Re: Catalina to Monterey
joemikeb #61575 05/23/22 08:36 PM
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I remember the days when Apple proudly (and righfully) declared: "It just works." I miss those days. I have gone from taking it for granted that upgrades provided by Apple are a good thing - and would update accordingly over the years - to now, unfortuately, always looking for what kind of trouble could I get into if I do their next "recommended" upgrade. I have ignored the MONTEREY Apple upgrade notice for months, although I am reminded every few days to do this upgrade.

So, what to do?

I may chance upgrading to BIG SUR and see how long that will last. But, BEFORE THEN, how do I go about keeping/accessing CATALINA to revert back if BIG SUR does not cooperate with my 2019 Intel desktop? Something, perhaps, about making a bootable copy of CATALINA? Or would CATALINA still be accessible through Apple's Recovery feature?

Obviously, I am reluctant to leave CATALINA because, having used it now, I know everything is working all as it should. It really scorches my slippers that I bought a new 2019 desktop and only three years later it is getting out of date - unless I stick with CATALINA for as long as it is supported by Apple. (Those days are numbered, I suspect.)

Last edited by MG2009; 05/23/22 08:39 PM. Reason: spelling

Many thanks,
MG2009
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61579 05/23/22 10:19 PM
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Based on my experience and others, my recommendation would be to make the jump all the way to Monterey. Big Sur is mostly a place holder until Monterey was ready. Monterey is arguably on of the most significant upgrades since OS X.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Catalina to Monterey
joemikeb #61587 05/25/22 01:33 AM
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Hi, All:

Downloaded CATALINA from the App Store and made a bootable USB. Just thought it would be nice to have. That took about an hour. All looks fine there. Whew!

Then . . . I took the plunge.

Went into RECOVERY MODE and Erased iMac, as per their instructions. The only OS option was to re-install CATALINA. - which came with the iMac. - so I did. In about an hour, it was up and running on my clean computer. No surprises there. Whew! (again).

Then I went to the App Store to do the "Software Update" for MONTEREY. Message: "Do you wish to download?" Of course, I replied with a "yes" and the process kicked in as one would expect.


HOWEVER (There has to be a "however" or I wouldn't be writing here, right?) . . .

2 1/2 hours later, the blue status bar completed and a message popped up telling there was a problem and the installer did not download. No sign of it anywhere, although previous such OS installer downloads appeared in the APPLICATIONS folder (which is where I expected to find MONTEREY's installer app).

So . . . I restarted the computer and initiated the same process using the App Store. At the 1-hour mark, it is about 60% installed - although no ICON in the Applications Folder has yet appeared. I instinctively am feeling like I will see the "problem message" again at the end of the blue status bar time.

Fingers and toes are crossed. (It shouldn't be this hard!)

Why would Apple send a recommended update if the computer they are sending it to is not compatible with MONTEREY? Everything I have read online indicates that my 2019 Intel iMac with CATALINA should be able to download and install MONTEREY.

Any other ideas if the install fails again?


Many thanks,
MG2009
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61588 05/25/22 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by MG2009
Any other ideas if the install fails again?
Trying to be somewhat better than useless, instead of booting into recovery with command-R, boot with command-option -R, which should give you the latest version of macOS with which your Mac is compatible.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904 How to reinstall macOS - Apple Support


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Catalina to Monterey
artie505 #61589 05/25/22 02:30 AM
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THANKS for the tip!

The installer DID show up in the Applications Folder when the blue line ran its course the second time. Hee-Haw.

I am in the process of making the Installer Disk (bootable USB) at the moment. It's about 30% complete as I write this.

If 100% successful, would you recommend I update/install from that USB OR use the command-option -R in Recovery to get Monterey installed? smile

Last edited by MG2009; 05/25/22 02:36 AM. Reason: spelling

Many thanks,
MG2009
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61590 05/25/22 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MG2009
If 100% successful, would you recommend I update/install from that USB OR use the command-option -R in Recovery to get Monterey installed? smile
I'd be inclined to go with command-option-R, because it's single step install, directly from Apple, and is less subject to possible error than the alternative three step approach.

On the other hand, though, if you're really tight for time, you'll likely save some by using the installer you've already d/l'ed rather than having to d/l Monterey again in Recovery.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Catalina to Monterey
artie505 #61591 05/25/22 03:40 AM
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Inclinations?

Mine was the same as yours . . . just in case there is something wonky about the Install USB which is not apparent. (My confidence in Apple is pretty much shot.)

The blue status bar says 6 1/2 hours. I figure that is not particularly reliable either. At least, let’s hope not. Grrrrr.

As far as Migration Assistant is concerned: Not even going there; I will drag and drop from my backup drive. I KNOW that will work.


Many thanks,
MG2009
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61592 05/25/22 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MG2009
The blue status bar says 6 1/2 hours. I figure that is not particularly reliable either. At least, let’s hope not. Grrrrr.

As far as Migration Assistant is concerned: Not even going there; I will drag and drop from my backup drive. I KNOW that will work.
6 1/2 hours is absurd! Not to be too facetious, but a guy carrying code in a bucket could do the job faster. tongue How fast or, as the case may be, slow is your Internet connection?

I recently did a command-option-R Catalina installation, and it didn't take much more than an hour from start to finish, if that long.

Having used Migration Assistant many times and never run into any problems with it, I recommend it, and, in fact, it may be your only viable option, because there's stuff that the OS won't allow you to drag, stuff that even if you can drag it you'll wind up with the wrong answer (*), and stuff that you won't even know needs to be dragged.

(*): For instance, even if the OS allows you to drag ~/Library/Preferences, by overwriting the new installation with your old one you'll lose the new plists that Monterey introduces.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Catalina to Monterey
artie505 #61593 05/25/22 07:42 AM
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Thanks, Artie.

As it turns out, the install time shortened considerably. The iMAC had restarted a few times and the total install clocked in at about 2 1/2 hours . . . which is far more reasonable from a clean install than the original estimate.

One thing that was a bit different with the installation is that I was given two drive options upon reboot: Apple SSD and Apple SSD-Data (i.e.each showing 1TB of space. I chose Apple SSD for the install). blush

And . . . Feeling somewhat more optimistic about Apple, I will now proceed with MIGRATION ASSISTANT - given your insight.

Note: Catalina OS was about 7 GB ; Monterey OS nearly is 13 GB.


Many thanks,
MG2009
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61594 05/25/22 01:25 PM
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Woke up to my backup done EXCEPT my “Personal Settings” did not transfer . . . and ALL the boxes in MA were checked off to do so. (Yes, I remembered to tick the little floppy arrows to make sure!)

Is there something else I can do? I know I can manually do the settings, but wasn’t the whole point of selecting the boxes to have MA do that for me during the transfer?

Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61598 05/25/22 04:39 PM
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It all depends on the step-by-step process you followed in performing the upgrade and specifically what you mean by personal settings:
  • Migration Assistant does NOT transfer ALL of your personal settings but it does transfer all of your data files and applications. For example, Launchpad folder settings are not transferred.
  • If you simply run the installer on a drive that already has a version of MacOS installed the data and settings are already there and running Migration Assistant is unnecessary -- even Launchpad folder settings are preserved.
  • If you erase the destination drive before running the installer and then use Migration Assistant to migrate your data from another bootable drive or Time Machine backup then you will lose some personal settings. You will have to ask Apple why those settings are not copied.
  • Personal accessibility settings are part of the setup process before running Migration Assistant.
  • You can always run Migration Assistant gain, but you will end up creating another user account and still will not recover ALL of your personal settings.


NOTE: If you still have a bootable copy of Catalina, the appropriate version of Carbon Copy Cloner, and a bit more patience you can still recover ALL of your personal settings by...
  1. Clone Catalina to the drive you intend to install Monterey on.
  2. Boot from your choice of the Recovery Drive or your bootable installer. (the bootable installer will save time)
  3. Re-install Monterey on the desired volume. DO NOT RUN MIGRATION ASSISTANT


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Catalina to Monterey
joemikeb #61603 05/25/22 07:17 PM
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Hello:

Thanks, again, JOEMIKEB.

Someone (Ira?) had posted about re-running MA with just the Settings boxes selected. Not something I would chance.

In fact, many of the settings did show up; the others I will “tweak” as needed (e.g. printer and some 3rd-party apps). What threw me was the FINDER, SIDEBAR, and DOCK preferences did not migrate, so I presumed very little else would . . . BUT I presumed incorrectly.

More fiddling about than I would have liked, but I should be able to settle in. smirk


Many thanks,
MG2009
Re: Catalina to Monterey
MG2009 #61605 05/26/22 03:33 AM
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Re: Earlier in this OP I mentioned . . .


One thing that was a bit different with the installation is that I was given two drive options upon reboot: Apple SSD and Apple SSD-Data on which to migrate my backup using M.A. (i.e.each showing 1TB of space) . I chose Apple SSD for the install.


Yesterday, I did the Recovery boot, as prescribed. Erased the SSD-DATA and then the SSD, as instructed, for the clean install. I then ran First Aid on the volumes as well. All the messages I received along the way were "green lights." HOWEVER, I noticed today that the SSD and SSD-Data still appear as two separate 1 TB drives each. While the four folders - Applications, System, Library and Users - transferred to the SSD drive, it appears as though the (separate) SSD-DATA drive is not being used at all. Has something gone awry? Shouldn't the USERS folder (and others?) be on the SSD-DATA drive?

Disk Utility shows the main Apple SSD and its two components: SSD and SSD-DATA. Not sure why it is showing as two separate drives on the desktop (i.e. it didn't with CATALINA). My instinct tells me that not all the contents of the computer should be on the SSD only while the SSD-DATA drive is ignored completely.

Any ideas? Has something happened that needs to be fixed? (I'd send a screenshot of my DU, but have no idea how to post such a pic.). Solution? : Is it safe to drag and drop the pertinent folders from the SSD to the SSD-DATA?

Any solutions anyone could provide would be great, if my perceived problem is a problem. (I was very careful to read as I went along and got no warnings not to proceed.)


EDITED:

I think this is what has happened . . . although, for the life of me, I have no idea why this would have. I certainly made no "requests" to split the FLASH/SSD. confused

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207584

P.S. I am coming up to clocking 32 hours since I began the "upgrade" to MONTEREY yesterday around noon - and that doesn't include a first Backup (which I will).

Last edited by MG2009; 05/26/22 03:47 AM.

Many thanks,
MG2009
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