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SuperDuper Question
#56469 10/11/20 06:41 PM
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I am using OS X 10.15.7 on a new Mac mini. I have SuperDuper 3.3.1. I set SD to copy 'all' files to my external HD. When finished, the external HD shows 30 items in my Application folder but on my Mini there are 65 items in the Applications folder. I erased and copied 2 times with the same result. It's not coping 35 items in my Applications folder. Similar difference with Unilities Folder not copying all the items. It's not just ignoring third party applications as some of those are copied and some not. Also some Apple apps are not copied like Chess & Calculator.

What is going on with SD? Also when I set the external HD as the startup disk it takes like 20 minutes to boot up. This doesn't seem right.

Any enlightenment will be greatly appreciated.

Re: SuperDuper Question
Douglas #56472 10/11/20 07:59 PM
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At this distance, it looks like your external has problems. So, the fault might not lie with SD. 20 minutes to boot up is more than excessive. In the meantime, you could email Dave Nanien at SD with your issue. In my experience, he has been very responsive.


Jon

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Re: SuperDuper Question
jchuzi #56473 10/11/20 08:09 PM
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Thanks, will give that a shot.

Re: SuperDuper Question
Douglas #56474 10/11/20 10:10 PM
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Update. Dave at SD was quick and very helpful. For some reason, Apple synthesizes the /Applications folder from two separate folders on two volumes - the Data volume (your stuff) and the System volume (their stuff). So that issue is resolved. Since the new Mini does not have a Firewire port the external HD is connected via USB port which may be a partial reason for the very long boot times.

I'm thinking that it would be more efficient, faster to boot, to buy a flash drive, 256GB, and use that to clone and boot from. Should I get a Thunderbolt flash drive or a usb 3 flash drive? What are major +/- for each? Thanks.

Re: SuperDuper Question
Douglas #56475 10/11/20 10:44 PM
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Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast at USB 3.1 Gen 2 (also called USB 3.2) and four times faster than USB 3, which pretty well sums up the pros and cons of each. Note too that flash drives are notoriously slow regardless of the interface. You really want soemthing like this or this to get resonable boot times.

Also, consider this in your plans. Mac OS 11 (Big Sur) will be rolling out very shortly and, at least at this juncture, CANNOT BE CLONED using SuperDuper, Carbon Copy Cloner or any other available product, it can only be installed. To be more precise only the data volume can be cloned and that is not bootable and you cannot clone a data volume onto a bootable Mac OS 11 drive and still have it bootable.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: SuperDuper Question
joemikeb #56478 10/12/20 05:11 AM
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Thanks, you saved me some money. No point in buying an external SSD or flash drive if I won't be able to clone my drive with Big Sur. Any idea why Apple is eliminating the abilty to clone a drive?

Re: SuperDuper Question
Douglas #56479 10/12/20 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Douglas
Any idea why Apple is eliminating the abilty to clone a drive?
Good question. My suspicious nature makes me wonder if it's a move toward forcing everyone to use iCloud.


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Re: SuperDuper Question
Douglas #56481 10/12/20 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Douglas
Thanks, you saved me some money. No point in buying an external SSD or flash drive if I won't be able to clone my drive with Big Sur. Any idea why Apple is eliminating the abilty to clone a drive?
It can be summed up in a single word, SECURITY. Apple is trying to make the system as bullet proof as possible. Apple may eventually come up with a command line app to create a bootable clone but that will be a trick to create as Big Sur boots from a virtual volume that is stored on the boot drive as a APFS snapshot. The ball is in Apple's court.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: SuperDuper Question
Douglas #56498 10/13/20 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Douglas
Update. Dave at SD was quick and very helpful. For some reason, Apple synthesizes the /Applications folder from two separate folders on two volumes - the Data volume (your stuff) and the System volume (their stuff). So that issue is resolved.
Doesn't that contradict "It's not coping 35 items in my Applications folder. Similar difference with Unilities Folder not copying all the items. It's not just ignoring third party applications as some of those are copied and some not. Also some Apple apps are not copied like Chess & Calculator." in your original post?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: SuperDuper Question
artie505 #56502 10/13/20 04:35 PM
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Working with APFS Volume Groups from the Carbon Copy Cloner Knowledge Base explains the underlying APFS structures that are enabling the new OS architectures and if you scroll down to the section on Finder shenanigans with the Applications folder you will find an explanation of how and why the file count varies.

Boot Volume Layouts and Layout of the Catalina Boot Volume Group (both from The Eclectic Light Company) help explain what you are seeing in Catalina as well as answering some of the questions about why there is a big cloning issue in Big Sur and this Apple Developer News article explains the rationale behind the changes in Big Sur. Absorb all of this and you begin to get the full picture of what this all about, how it fits together, and how, through the actions of "firmlinks" the system can contain elements from both the data and system volumes and reaches a zenith in the boot volume in Big Sur which is essentially a "virtual" construct".

Looking at this in total, it appears that implementing any "cloning" ability in Big Sur may have to include installing the boot volume using the MacOS installer, or at least portions thereof. I am not holding my breath waiting for that to appear.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: SuperDuper Question
joemikeb #56504 10/13/20 05:16 PM
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Appreciate the info but it is way about my pay grade. I've used Mac's since 1986 and they just keep getting more and more complicated and unfortunately I keep getting older and older.

Bottom line, I guess, is that I will probably no longer be able to clone my system for backup purposes going forward. It's probably not rational but I don't want all my 'stuff' out there floating around in iCloud or any other remote service. I liked to clone my system in the unlikely occurrence my Mac crashed and that actually happened once quite a number of years ago. With the clone I was up and running with a new Mac in short order.

Re: SuperDuper Question
Douglas #56511 10/13/20 09:58 PM
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Then you need a serious external drive at least 3 to 4 times the capacity of your boot drive, format it MacOS Extended Journaled, and select it as your Time Machine drive in System Preferences > Time Machine. Your disaster recovery is booting from the Recovery Drive (code boot while holding ⌘R until you see a progress bar) then install MacOS and if necessary restore your data from Time Machine. It takes a couple of hours to complete but it is complete, and Time Machine backups are far more flexible than any bootable clone because you can recover files from months even years back easily.

Note speed isn't important with Time Machine drives so you can use inexpensive. bus powered, Hard Drives and enclosures.

Last edited by joemikeb; 10/13/20 10:01 PM. Reason: Note

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: SuperDuper Question
Douglas #56512 10/13/20 10:00 PM
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Douglas, starting with an LC and System 6 in 1990 I am with totally with you in almost every respect. Now increasing age and irrationality see me questioning whether it was really worth replacing my perfectly functional 2013 iMac in order to run Big Sur when it arrived!

I have used cloning software for years in case of hardware failure (never happened) or OS update problems (which have, one of them blowing away 6 months of recent Time Machine history). Even if Volume cloning can’t be implemented immediately, it seems to me that it’s the Data volume that’s more important and it looks like that can still be cloned…

Re: SuperDuper Question
andycap #56513 10/13/20 10:03 PM
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[quote=andycap... and it looks like that can still be cloned… [/quote]
It can. But I still prefer a Time Machine backup for its flexibility and ability to keep historical files.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: SuperDuper Question
joemikeb #56635 10/26/20 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast at USB 3.1 Gen 2 (also called USB 3.2) and four times faster than USB 3, which pretty well sums up the pros and cons of each. Note too that flash drives are notoriously slow regardless of the interface. You really want soemthing like this or this to get resonable boot times.

Also, consider this in your plans. Mac OS 11 (Big Sur) will be rolling out very shortly and, at least at this juncture, CANNOT BE CLONED using SuperDuper, Carbon Copy Cloner or any other available product, it can only be installed. To be more precise only the data volume can be cloned and that is not bootable and you cannot clone a data volume onto a bootable Mac OS 11 drive and still have it bootable.

There are a number of applications that are not yet compatible with Big Sur. I have not heard that there will not be an update to SuperDuper! (I use it too) for Big Sur compatibility. So, I expect it to be compatible whenever Dave gets an update ready. That has been the case in the past, and I would not expect it to change.

For myself, there are 4 critical applications that need to be compatible before I move from Catalina to Big Sur: SuperDuper!, Onyx, LibreOffice, and Tech Tool Pro. And given past history, Tech Tool Pro will be the last. But "No Problemo", as Arnie says, as the first few releases of a new mac OS contain a good amount of bugs, and Catalina is working fine for me. Plus, there is nothing earth shattering in Big Sur.

Re: SuperDuper Question
MartyByrde #56636 10/26/20 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MartyByrde
There are a number of applications that are not yet compatible with Big Sur. I have not heard that there will not be an update to SuperDuper! (I use it too) for Big Sur compatibility. So, I expect it to be compatible whenever Dave gets an update ready. That has been the case in the past, and I would not expect it to change.

For myself, there are 4 critical applications that need to be compatible before I move from Catalina to Big Sur: SuperDuper!, Onyx, LibreOffice, and Tech Tool Pro. And given past history, Tech Tool Pro will be the last. But "No Problemo", as Arnie says, as the first few releases of a new mac OS contain a good amount of bugs, and Catalina is working fine for me. Plus, there is nothing earth shattering in Big Sur.
  • Carbon Copy Cloner is already as Big Sur compatible as any clone utility will get, unless and until, Apple creates a tool to make it possible to create a bootable clone. There is a dandy one in Catalina, although SuperDuper chose not to use it, but security changes in Big Sur broke it. The Data Volume can be cloned, but the actual bootable volume is a sealed and encyrypted APFS snapshot created by the Big Sur installer. Copying or cloning that snapshot to another drive breaks the seal and renders the image unbootable. The work around is, and will likely remain for some time, maybe permanently, to install Big Sur on the target volume using the Recovery Drive and then cloning the Data volume to that drive. NOTE: when new applications are included in a data volume clone, they will be certified the next time you boot that clone which can be time consuming and annoying.
  • Tech Tool Pro works on Big Sur but it has yet to be certified and there are functions that are not supported on APFS drives (and are generally un-needed on SSDs). Personally although I have had TechTool Pro since its inception, I haven't needed or used it in three or four years and have no intention of paying for an upgrade for Big Sur.
  • Open Office works just fine on Big Sur so LibreOffice should work as well as both are created from the same base code set.
  • OnyX, Cocktail, Tinkertool, TinkerTool System, MacPilot, et. al. are nothing more than a GUI front ends for Unix commands and preference settings, and although they need careful testing to be sure nothing has changed in the kernel, the only thing lacking in most cases is certification. Tinkertool is already compatible.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: SuperDuper Question
joemikeb #56637 10/26/20 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by MartyByrde
There are a number of applications that are not yet compatible with Big Sur. I have not heard that there will not be an update to SuperDuper! (I use it too) for Big Sur compatibility. So, I expect it to be compatible whenever Dave gets an update ready. That has been the case in the past, and I would not expect it to change.

For myself, there are 4 critical applications that need to be compatible before I move from Catalina to Big Sur: SuperDuper!, Onyx, LibreOffice, and Tech Tool Pro. And given past history, Tech Tool Pro will be the last. But "No Problemo", as Arnie says, as the first few releases of a new mac OS contain a good amount of bugs, and Catalina is working fine for me. Plus, there is nothing earth shattering in Big Sur.
  • Carbon Copy Cloner is already as Big Sur compatible as any clone utility will get, unless and until, Apple creates a tool to make it possible to create a bootable clone. There is a dandy one in Catalina, although SuperDuper chose not to use it, but security changes in Big Sur broke it. The Data Volume can be cloned, but the actual bootable volume is a sealed and encyrypted APFS snapshot created by the Big Sur installer. Copying or cloning that snapshot to another drive breaks the seal and renders the image unbootable. The work around is, and will likely remain for some time, maybe permanently, to install Big Sur on the target volume using the Recovery Drive and then cloning the Data volume to that drive. NOTE: when new applications are included in a data volume clone, they will be certified the next time you boot that clone which can be time consuming and annoying.
  • Tech Tool Pro works on Big Sur but it has yet to be certified and there are functions that are not supported on APFS drives (and are generally un-needed on SSDs). Personally although I have had TechTool Pro since its inception, I haven't needed or used it in three or four years and have no intention of paying for an upgrade for Big Sur.
  • Open Office works just fine on Big Sur so LibreOffice should work as well as both are created from the same base code set.
  • OnyX, Cocktail, Tinkertool, TinkerTool System, MacPilot, et. al. are nothing more than a GUI front ends for Unix commands and preference settings, and although they need careful testing to be sure nothing has changed in the kernel, the only thing lacking in most cases is certification. Tinkertool is already compatible.

1. Where are you getting that information about Carbon Copy Cloner? On Shirt Pocket Watch, there is a September 4th post by Dave, but nothing like you stated.
2. I have seen nothing definitive about Tech Tool Pro definitely working with Big Sur. As far as I can tell, they are still working on a compatible version. And one would think that is the case, since Big Sur still has not been officially released.
3. According to this:

https://www.openoffice.org/download/

it does not say OpenOffice is compatible with Big Sur. I also looked on tis site:

https://roaringapps.com/apps

and again, nothing definitive.
4. Onyx does not have a version yet, and just like in the past, I suspect a Big Sur version will not be released until OS 11.1 arrives.

Re: SuperDuper Question
joemikeb #56638 10/26/20 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
[*]Carbon Copy Cloner is already as Big Sur compatible as any clone utility will get, unless and until, Apple creates a tool to make it possible to create a bootable clone. There is a dandy one in Catalina, although SuperDuper chose not to use it, but security changes in Big Sur broke it. The Data Volume can be cloned, but the actual bootable volume is a sealed and encyrypted APFS snapshot created by the Big Sur installer. Copying or cloning that snapshot to another drive breaks the seal and renders the image unbootable. The work around is, and will likely remain for some time, maybe permanently, to install Big Sur on the target volume using the Recovery Drive and then cloning the Data volume to that drive. NOTE: when new applications are included in a data volume clone, they will be certified the next time you boot that clone which can be time consuming and annoying.

One other thing: according to this update from Bombich software:

https://bombich.com/kb/ccc5/frequently-asked-questions-about-ccc-and-macos-11

they do not seem to be that far away with getting this resolved. (I have also EMailed Dave about this situation, asking him for an update).

Last edited by MartyByrde; 10/27/20 04:01 AM.
Re: SuperDuper Question
MartyByrde #56641 10/27/20 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MartyByrde
1. Where are you getting that information about Carbon Copy Cloner? On Shirt Pocket Watch, there is a September 4th post by Dave, but nothing like you stated.
From personal experience running, release notes from the current version of CCC, correspondence with the developer of CCC, Mike Bombich, information is multiple threads on FineTunedMac.

Originally Posted by MartyByrde
2. I have seen nothing definitive about Tech Tool Pro definitely working with Big Sur. As far as I can tell, they are still working on a compatible version. And one would think that is the case, since Big Sur still has not been officially released
No argument

.
Originally Posted by MartyByrde
3. According to this:

https://www.openoffice.org/download/

it does not say OpenOffice is compatible with Big Sur. I also looked on tis site:

https://roaringapps.com/apps

and again, nothing definitive.
Apologies, I misspoke when I said OpenOffice, I meant to say NeoOffice which is LibreOffice with a dark mode See the compatibility notes on their download page if my personal experience is insufficient.

Originally Posted by MartyByrde
4. Onyx does not have a version yet, and just like in the past, I suspect a Big Sur version will not be released until OS 11.1 arrives.
Agreed, In fact I thought that is essentially what I said.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: SuperDuper Question
joemikeb #56642 10/27/20 03:19 PM
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MartyByrde, you might find this thread interesting as it contains a lot of discussion and discovery about cloning and MacOS 11 (Big Sur).


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: SuperDuper Question
MartyByrde #56644 10/27/20 04:14 PM
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No-one's welcomed you to FTM yet. frown

Hi, and welcome to FineTunedMac. smile


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: SuperDuper Question
artie505 #56645 10/27/20 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by artie505
No-one's welcomed you to FTM yet. frown

Hi, and welcome to FineTunedMac. smile

Thank You. Hopefully I can make some contributions, and also learn some things.

Thanks again.

Re: SuperDuper Question
joemikeb #56646 10/27/20 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
From personal experience running, release notes from the current version of CCC, correspondence with the developer of CCC, Mike Bombich, information is multiple threads on FineTunedMac.

I assume you remember when Apple released V10.15.5 of Catalina. It basically broke both SuperDuper! (SD) and Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC). CCC did release a fix, but SD did not. I actually went back to V10.15.4, but then the issue was resolved in V10.15.6 (and is OK is V10.15.7).

I did hear back from Dave about this, and he stated the following:

"We are forced to use asr (not ssr) to make a bootable copy, and since it doesn't work yet, we haven't been able to test with it, other than to prove it doesn't work.

I do not know when Apple will fix their tool. We've been asking all summer."

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Apologies, I misspoke when I said OpenOffice, I meant to say NeoOffice which is LibreOffice with a dark mode See the compatibility notes on their download page if my personal experience is insufficient.

No problemo. I have not heard of LibreOffice with a dark mode. But I suspect a version of (the "normal") LibreOffice with Big Sur compatibility will be released soon. Again, though, I can wait, given that I will not be moving to Big Sur until, most likely, in January. In the meantime, I'll do just fine with Catalina.

Re: SuperDuper Question
joemikeb #56647 10/27/20 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
MartyByrde, you might find this thread interesting as it contains a lot of discussion and discovery about cloning and MacOS 11 (Big Sur).

Thanks. I'll look at that. I just hope Apple fixes the problem. Given that something similar (I believe) happened with V10.15.5 of Catalina, hopefully they will get it resolved, and both Shirt Pocket Software and Bombich Software will be happy campers!

Also, in another communication with Dave, I said that Apple is trying to kill us. His response was "No, I don't think they're trying to kill us. I think they don't care about us. It's different...although the end effect may be the same.". Maybe a play on words, but not caring is even worse! Do you know a way I can communicate my disdain with Apple's attitude about this situation? Might not help much, but maybe if enough SuperDuper! and Carbon Copy Cloner users do the same, Apple possibly will listen and do something.

Last edited by MartyByrde; 10/27/20 05:06 PM.
Re: SuperDuper Question
MartyByrde #56654 10/28/20 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MartyByrde
I assume you remember when Apple released V10.15.5 of Catalina. It basically broke both SuperDuper! (SD) and Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC). CCC did release a fix, but SD did not. I actually went back to V10.15.4, but then the issue was resolved in V10.15.6 (and is OK is V10.15.7).
That's interesting, because I've never had an issue with CCC.10.15.5 and otherwise, it's worked for me without fail.


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