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Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #55970 09/04/20 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
All considered, maybe Rita will be best off doing a clean install on her internal and using Migration Assistant to import her settings, apps, and docs from her external?
I thought of that, and it had great appeal. If I were performing the process, it is the way I would go. But Rita is performing the process.

All considered, then, no arguments here.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #55974 09/04/20 01:34 AM
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The link only showed “APFS VOLUME ANALOGY”, Your Name shared this item.



Originally Posted by joemikeb
Okay here is another document to look at that may help explain the difference between partitions and volumes in APFS.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #55989 09/04/20 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
The link only showed “APFS VOLUME ANALOGY”, Your Name shared this item.

It didn't offer a download like the previous document?


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #55991 09/04/20 04:18 PM
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I was able to d/l and look at it. Nice job!


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #55993 09/04/20 04:46 PM
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Nope. It didn't d/l nicely like the previous one.

On another note, I got a message this morning: The operation couldn't be completed. PK download error error 3. I looked it up and got this: Would you recommend this or is there something else I can do? There were a lot of other posts on that page and all were people who had the same problem of Catalina not downloading even if they were going from Mojave to Catalina. It made them want Steve Jobs back to make heads roll! LOL!



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Oct 19, 2019 1:54 PM in response to saied160

I read a lot of the posts with the same error and after being on the phone with Apple for a couple hours myself this is what worked (reinstall from macOS Recovery):
Fully shutdown Mac
Hold power on, Option+Command+R
You should see the spinning globe
You might also be asked to connect to a network
MacOS Utilities should open
Select “reinstall macOS”
It should show the Catalina update
If not, repeat this step (to remove the Mojave option)
This Apple link is helpful too: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904









Originally Posted by joemikeb
Okay here is another document to look at that may help explain the difference between partitions and volumes in APFS.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
artie505 #55994 09/04/20 05:12 PM
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I hope that helps dissipate some of the fog surrounding APFS volumes.

Before I forget it, congratulations on getting Catalina up and running. It is highly likely you will have more questions in the future because of all the changes; don't hesitate to ask when they come up.

I have two requests for you...
  1. MacOS updates (ie. MacOS 10.15.4 to MacOS 10.15.5) come along every month to six weeks. Please install them as soon as they are available. These will invariably fix bugs, improve security, and sometimes add new features.
  2. MacOS upgrades (ie. Mac OS 10.15 to MacOS 11) come along annually. Please install them when they come out. These may include substantial changes in the system and may break older, no longer supported apps, but putting them off makes the next jump that much bigger and your learning curve that much steeper. I don't think you, Artie, or I want to go through this exercise again.

That said, thanks for the challenge. I enjoyed coming up with a rock-solid solution to a complex operation that could be carried out by "an intelligent but uninformed" individual such as yourself. Challenges like this keep me intellectually stimulated and helps prevent my making too many assumptions that always get me into trouble. 😜.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #55995 09/04/20 05:44 PM
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Thanks so much for your time and so sorry for my last post where you will see that we need to do something else. I actually did learn my lesson. It's against my nature to upgrade every time something wants me to, but I will now, except for my iPhone, LOL! Once I heard they slowed it down, I refused to upgrade before that happened to me. Hopefully, we can resolve my other problem of it being a failed d/l. frown

Rita



Originally Posted by joemikeb
I hope that helps dissipate some of the fog surrounding APFS volumes.

Before I forget it, congratulations on getting Catalina up and running. It is highly likely you will have more questions in the future because of all the changes; don't hesitate to ask when they come up.

I have two requests for you...
  1. MacOS updates (ie. MacOS 10.15.4 to MacOS 10.15.5) come along every month to six weeks. Please install them as soon as they are available. These will invariably fix bugs, improve security, and sometimes add new features.
  2. MacOS upgrades (ie. Mac OS 10.15 to MacOS 11) come along annually. Please install them when they come out. These may include substantial changes in the system and may break older, no longer supported apps, but putting them off makes the next jump that much bigger and your learning curve that much steeper. I don't think you, Artie, or I want to go through this exercise again.

That said, thanks for the challenge. I enjoyed coming up with a rock-solid solution to a complex operation that could be carried out by "an intelligent but uninformed" individual such as yourself. Challenges like this keep me intellectually stimulated and helps prevent my making too many assumptions that always get me into trouble. 😜.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #55999 09/04/20 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
Nope. It didn't d/l nicely like the previous one.
🤷‍♂️ Apparently it worked for Artie. Try again using this URL

Originally Posted by plantsower
On another note, I got a message this morning: The operation couldn't be completed. PK download error error 3. I looked it up and got this: Would you recommend this or is there something else I can do? There were a lot of other posts on that page and all were people who had the same problem of Catalina not downloading even if they were going from Mojave to Catalina. It made them want Steve Jobs back to make heads rollhttps://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0AeusBln3weOwYZXCfvJHO3mw#RITA-V3_PDF! LOL!



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User profile for user: samahart samahart
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Oct 19, 2019 1:54 PM in response to saied160

I read a lot of the posts with the same error and after being on the phone with Apple for a couple hours myself this is what worked (reinstall from macOS Recovery):
Fully shutdown Mac
Hold power on, Option+Command+R
You should see the spinning globe
You might also be asked to connect to a network
MacOS Utilities should open
Select “reinstall macOS”
It should show the Catalina update
If not, repeat this step (to remove the Mojave option)
This Apple link is helpful too: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904
I was going to suggest installing from the Internet Recovery Drive (which is what this is), but Apple's documentation indicated updating from a clean drive or Sierra might not offer Catalina as an upgrade choice and you would then have to upgrade via the App Store. Rather than take a risk I elected to go directly to the App Store but I was unaware of download issues from there. I am sanguine there are people at Apple tearing their hair out over this. Too 🤬 many ifs. However, it sounds as if you have things well in hand?


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56001 09/04/20 05:58 PM
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Nope, just what I posted above.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
The link only showed “APFS VOLUME ANALOGY”, Your Name shared this item.

It didn't offer a download like the previous document?


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56002 09/04/20 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
Thanks so much for your time and so sorry for my last post where you will see that we need to do something else. I actually did learn my lesson. It's against my nature to upgrade every time something wants me to, but I will now, except for my iPhone, LOL! Once I heard they slowed it down, I refused to upgrade before that happened to me. Hopefully, we can resolve my other problem of it being a failed d/l. frown

Rita
Hopefully the Internet Recovery Drive install will work. As I said, I would have used it had it not been for Apple's warning it might not offer the Catalina upgrade. 🤬🤬🤬

I believe the iPhone slowdown issue was corrected in subsequent iOS releases. Even if it hasn't, I would still encourage updating and upgrading iOS for security reasons and bug fixes. Especially for security reasons.

Last edited by joemikeb; 09/04/20 06:02 PM.

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56003 09/04/20 06:24 PM
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This is what I got from your new url: “RITA-V3 PDF“ plus it gave your name and that your shared the document. That's it. I don't use iCloud, so maybe that's it though it worked for the previous PDF you sent me.

Also, by saying I have it well in hand, do you mean I should follow the instructions I posted here below? I wanted your opinion first. I've tried that option in the past with the spinning globe and it always asked me to pick a network but there is never one to pick. It's always a dead end. I think I am stuck with Sierra for now on my older Mac. I really don't want to go to an Apple store an hour away and wait in line and have them charge me for now. My old Mac seems to be working well now, so I will stick with that for now. Correction: Duh, I am able to use Sierra on my every day Mac because I copied it back on from SuperDuper.

I don't know why recovery doesn't work for me, but it never has. Last time I had to go to the Apple store because of the same problem of recovery not working after AppleCare had me delete stuff. It's been a long time ago and so I wasn't sure that what I was doing recently would have the same effect. I took a chance, but now see I probably will have to go to an Apple store but not in the near future. frown I sure wish there was another way around it. Maybe trying to d/l again?

Also, one of the other posters said he got it to work by SAYING: "I was able to solve the problem by continually trying to download the file over 100+ clicks, then removing the installation file and running software update again. The download came down successfully in one go and installed successfully." I don't know what he meant by 100+ clicks. 100+ tries? Yikes!

This page has some more tips, I wonder if they are feasible: OS recovery. Towards the bottom it talks about OS recovery Exceptions. Maybe I could try one of those. I still want your opinion first. The OS Recovery Exceptions are towards the bottom of the page.






Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
Nope. It didn't d/l nicely like the previous one.
🤷‍♂️ Apparently it worked for Artie. Try again using this URL

Originally Posted by plantsower
On another note, I got a message this morning: The operation couldn't be completed. PK download error error 3. I looked it up and got this: Would you recommend this or is there something else I can do? There were a lot of other posts on that page and all were people who had the same problem of Catalina not downloading even if they were going from Mojave to Catalina. It made them want Steve Jobs back to make heads rollhttps://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0AeusBln3weOwYZXCfvJHO3mw#RITA-V3_PDF! LOL!



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User profile for user: samahart samahart
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Oct 19, 2019 1:54 PM in response to saied160

I read a lot of the posts with the same error and after being on the phone with Apple for a couple hours myself this is what worked (reinstall from macOS Recovery):
Fully shutdown Mac
Hold power on, Option+Command+R
You should see the spinning globe
You might also be asked to connect to a network
MacOS Utilities should open
Select “reinstall macOS”
It should show the Catalina update
If not, repeat this step (to remove the Mojave option)
This Apple link is helpful too: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904


I was going to suggest installing from the Internet Recovery Drive (which is what this is), but Apple's documentation indicated updating from a clean drive or Sierra might not offer Catalina as an upgrade choice and you would then have to upgrade via the App Store. Rather than take a risk I elected to go directly to the App Store but I was unaware of download issues from there. I am sanguine there are people at Apple tearing their hair out over this. Too 🤬 many ifs. However, it sounds as if you have things well in hand?

Last edited by plantsower; 09/04/20 06:36 PM.

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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56009 09/04/20 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
This is what I got from your new url: “RITA-V3 PDF“ plus it gave your name and that your shared the document. That's it. I don't use iCloud, so maybe that's it though it worked for the previous PDF you sent me.
Try this link.

Originally Posted by plantsower
Correction: Duh, I am able to use Sierra on my every day Mac because I copied it back on from SuperDuper.
Yes and becuse you now have enpough disk space, your former problems are likely history[/quote]

Originally Posted by plantswer
I don't know why recovery doesn't work for me, but it never has. Last time I had to go to the Apple store because of the same problem of recovery not working after AppleCare had me delete stuff. It's been a long time ago and so I wasn't sure that what I was doing recently would have the same effect. I took a chance, but now see I probably will have to go to an Apple store but not in the near future. frown I sure wish there was another way around it. Maybe trying to d/l again?
I would try downloading it from the App Store again, but I would start it late at night or early in the morning when internet traffic is low. Slow internet connections can be a problem with large downloads, but the App Store is usually pretty good at handling that. I would try two or three times before giving up on the App Store.

If the App Store download still fails then follow the instructions Apple gave you to boot from the internet recovery drive. When it prompts for your network, look at the menu bar for a network icon (radiating arcs) and click on that then select your WiFi and enter the password. I have had to do that on occassion but I never know for sure why that is.

Another possibility would be to bypass WiFi and connect your computer directly to the router via an ethernet cable, that would eliminate WiFi interference and could possibly speed up the download. Most routers have multiple ethernet ports so all you have to do is plug into one of those and the ethernet port on your Mac. (If your computer is a laptop you would probably need an ethernet adaptor as well.)

Originally Posted by plantsower
This page has some more tips, I wonder if they are feasible: OS recovery. Towards the bottom it talks about OS recovery Exceptions. Maybe I could try one of those. I still want your opinion first. The OS Recovery Exceptions are towards the bottom of the page.
That is the same page that has reasons why it might not work from the Recovery Drive if you are using Sierra. 😲 Which is why I wanted to avoid that option. Besides that the suggested alternatives are not particularly helpful except for taking your computer to an Apple Store. 😡


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56012 09/04/20 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
This is what I got from your new url: “RITA-V3 PDF“ plus it gave your name and that your shared the document. That's it. I don't use iCloud, so maybe that's it though it worked for the previous PDF you sent me.
Try this link. That worked like the first link did. Thanks.

Originally Posted by plantsower
Correction: Duh, I am able to use Sierra on my every day Mac because I copied it back on from SuperDuper.
Yes and becuse you now have enpough disk space, your former problems are likely history
😀

Originally Posted by plantswer
I don't know why recovery doesn't work for me, but it never has. Last time I had to go to the Apple store because of the same problem of recovery not working after AppleCare had me delete stuff. It's been a long time ago and so I wasn't sure that what I was doing recently would have the same effect. I took a chance, but now see I probably will have to go to an Apple store but not in the near future. frown I sure wish there was another way around it. Maybe trying to d/l again?
I would try downloading it from the App Store again, but I would start it late at night or early in the morning when internet traffic is low. Slow internet connections can be a problem with large downloads, but the App Store is usually pretty good at handling that. I would try two or three times before giving up on the App Store. OK, will do.

If the App Store download still fails then follow the instructions Apple gave you to boot from the internet recovery drive. When it prompts for your network, look at the menu bar for a network icon (radiating arcs) and click on that then select your WiFi and enter the password. I have had to do that on occassion but I never know for sure why that is. That's never worked for me, but I will try if d/l's don't work.

Another possibility would be to bypass WiFi and connect your computer directly to the router via an ethernet cable, that would eliminate WiFi interference and could possibly speed up the download. Most routers have multiple ethernet ports so all you have to do is plug into one of those and the ethernet port on your Mac. (If your computer is a laptop you would probably need an ethernet adaptor as well.) If all else fails, I will also try this. I have connected to ethernet in the past to do recovery mode per AppleCare, but it didn't work. But, maybe d/ling Catalina will work that way. Thanks. I do have an ethernet adaptor because Apple discontinued including the port. 😡😡

Originally Posted by plantsower
This page has some more tips, I wonder if they are feasible: OS recovery. Towards the bottom it talks about OS recovery Exceptions. Maybe I could try one of those. I still want your opinion first. The OS Recovery Exceptions are towards the bottom of the page.
That is the same page that has reasons why it might not work from the Recovery Drive if you are using Sierra. 😲 Which is why I wanted to avoid that option. Besides that the suggested alternatives are not particularly helpful except for taking your computer to an Apple Store. 😡 [/quote] OK. I have lots to try now which give me some hope.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56016 09/04/20 10:32 PM
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I misplaced my ethernet adaptor. Is it better to use a thunderbolt or USB adaptor? Does it have to be a USB type C? I think thunderbolt may be more expensive and if USB will work, I will go with that.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56017 09/04/20 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
I misplaced my ethernet adaptor. Is it better to use a thunderbolt or USB adaptor? Does it have to be a USB type C? I think thunderbolt may be more expensive and if USB will work, I will go with that.
Don't confuse the port style with the dta protocol. USB C ports are the standard for Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3.2. All of the USB C ports on my Mac mini are Thunderbolt 3 and are downward compatible with USB 3.2. Thunderbolt 3 is four times faster than USB 3.2 so a TB3 adapter would be my first choice. However, USB 3.2 is probably faster than your internet.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56018 09/04/20 11:18 PM
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Would this work? It's a 3.1 and says it works with new MacBook pros. Ethernet adapter


Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
I misplaced my ethernet adaptor. Is it better to use a thunderbolt or USB adaptor? Does it have to be a USB type C? I think thunderbolt may be more expensive and if USB will work, I will go with that.
Don't confuse the port style with the dta protocol. USB C ports are the standard for Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3.2. All of the USB C ports on my Mac mini are Thunderbolt 3 and are downward compatible with USB 3.2. Thunderbolt 3 is four times faster than USB 3.2 so a TB3 adapter would be my first choice. However, USB 3.2 is probably faster than your internet.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56020 09/05/20 01:13 AM
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Okay here is another document to look at that may help explain the difference between partitions and volumes in APFS.

Though I still don't completely understand it, your explanation on 4/26/20 was even better.




Originally Posted by plantsower
Nope. It didn't d/l nicely like the previous one.

On another note, I got a message this morning: The operation couldn't be completed. PK download error error 3. I looked it up and got this: Would you recommend this or is there something else I can do? There were a lot of other posts on that page and all were people who had the same problem of Catalina not downloading even if they were going from Mojave to Catalina. It made them want Steve Jobs back to make heads roll! LOL!



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User profile for user: samahart samahart
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Oct 19, 2019 1:54 PM in response to saied160

I read a lot of the posts with the same error and after being on the phone with Apple for a couple hours myself this is what worked (reinstall from macOS Recovery):
Fully shutdown Mac
Hold power on, Option+Command+R
You should see the spinning globe
You might also be asked to connect to a network
MacOS Utilities should open
Select “reinstall macOS”
It should show the Catalina update
If not, repeat this step (to remove the Mojave option)
This Apple link is helpful too: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904









Originally Posted by joemikeb
Okay here is another document to look at that may help explain the difference between partitions and volumes in APFS.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56022 09/05/20 04:34 AM
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I found my old ethernet adaptor which is a usb 3.0. Adaptor. I tried it, but got the message you don't have DSL or a cable so cannot connect. What? The internet went out just about then, too, so I don't know if it was a coincidence or what. I am now d/ling via wifi again. Wish me luck!


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56029 09/05/20 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
I found my old ethernet adaptor which is a usb 3.0. Adaptor. I tried it, but got the message you don't have DSL or a cable so cannot connect. What? The internet went out just about then, too, so I don't know if it was a coincidence or what.
Sounds as if the internet going out was the cause of the first message. FYI the connector in your device is USB type A. But there is a significant difference in the maximum data rate possible based on the protocol:
  • USB 3.0 - 5Gbps
  • USB 3.1 - 10 Gbps
  • USB 3.2 (a.k.a. 3.1 gen 2) - 20 Gbps
  • Thunderbolt 3 - 40Gbps (Type C connector only)


Originally Posted by plantsower
I am now d/ling via wifi again. Wish me luck!
🤞🤞🤞🤞(there is no icon for crossed toes) 😉


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Updating to Catalina
joemikeb #56030 09/05/20 06:13 PM
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I'M UP AND RUNNING!!!!! Glad you told me about the screen going dark and stuff or I would have started all over.

I don't like dark mode and found out online that I could tell Siri to disable it and he (man's voice for some reason) did! Now off to learning other stuff!

Oh, one question. Under the network options, all boxes are checked automatically but the iPhone box was unchecked. Does that sync my iPhone to the mac? I couldn't find that info anywhere. I wonder if I need to do that so that messages show up on the mac and my iPhone like they did before. I don't want my credit card info on my phone, so I hope that's not an issue.

You would be proud of me, I put the Mac on auto update and will turn on Time Machine though I probably won't use it! LOL! Oops, it looks like it was automatically on. Oh well.

Thanks again for all your help JoeMike and everybody, and I will let you know if I have any questions that I can't get answered after researching it.

Rita


Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
I found my old ethernet adaptor which is a usb 3.0. Adaptor. I tried it, but got the message you don't have DSL or a cable so cannot connect. What? The internet went out just about then, too, so I don't know if it was a coincidence or what.
Sounds as if the internet going out was the cause of the first message. FYI the connector in your device is USB type A. But there is a significant difference in the maximum data rate possible based on the protocol:
  • USB 3.0 - 5Gbps
  • USB 3.1 - 10 Gbps
  • USB 3.2 (a.k.a. 3.1 gen 2) - 20 Gbps
  • Thunderbolt 3 - 40Gbps (Type C connector only)


Originally Posted by plantsower
I am now d/ling via wifi again. Wish me luck!
🤞🤞🤞🤞(there is no icon for crossed toes) 😉


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Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56031 09/05/20 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by plantsower
I'M UP AND RUNNING!!!!!

YAAAY!!! smile

Originally Posted by plantsower
...will turn on Time Machine though I probably won't use it! LOL! Oops, it looks like it was automatically on. Oh well.

Time Machine may be able to use your external even with Sierra on it (...a question for joemike), but it's why I suggested partitioning your external a while back...so you'd have unique spaces for both backup AND Time Machine.

As a matter of fact, I believe your internal is now APFS, and I suggest erasing your external and REformatting it APFS with 2 partitions...one for backups and one for TM.


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Re: Updating to Catalina
artie505 #56032 09/05/20 06:40 PM
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If Rita is using the external for Time Machine, she cannot use APFS. TM drives MUST be formatted Mac OS Extended (journaled). I believe, however, that if she sets up TM, the drive will automatically be formatted correctly. As I understand it, TM drives can be formatted APFS in Big Sur.


Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: Updating to Catalina
artie505 #56033 09/05/20 06:41 PM
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Yeah, well I will need specific instructions for that. tongue

As a matter of fact, I believe your internal is now APFS, and I suggest erasing your external and REformatting it APFS with 2 partitions...one for backups and one for TM. [/quote]


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Re: Updating to Catalina
jchuzi #56034 09/05/20 06:41 PM
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Thanks for correcting me, Jon.

I should have remembered that from multiple joemike posts.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Updating to Catalina
plantsower #56035 09/05/20 07:57 PM
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Rita, I am proud of you! You have made a big step, and I am glad you left auto-update turned on. That way, the next step will be relatively small and one heck of a lot less complicated. 👌

Your internal drive is now formatted APFS and has four Volumes, only one of which (Macintosh HD - Data) do you have read-write access. The other volumes are Read Only. If you want to keep Sierra as a security blanket, you cannot format the external drive APFS. Unless you do want to keep Sierra as a security blanket, I would erase the external drive to Mac OS Extended (Journaled) and use the whole thing for Time Machine backups. (Check System Preferences > Time Machine to see which drive it is using.)

If you feel the need for a bootable backup, the Recovery Drive will work to make repairs or even reinstall if necessary, which is what Apple intends. (Big Sur at this point cannot be cloned unless and until Apple creates a utility to do that. SuperDuper and Carbon Copy Cloner can only clone the data volume.) This fall, when you update to Big Sur, you can convert your external drive to APFS without losing the data on it. Whatever you decide, I do NOT recommend partitioning. (Okay, I NEVER recommend partitioning unless it is unavoidable.)


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