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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
artie505 #55531 08/02/20 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
The very worst aspect of the Internet is that it's given every crackpot, lunatic, and agent provocateur, not to mention every just plain nasty person, a free platform with unlimited reach, and has thereby made the world a FAR worse place! mad

That's for sure. Compounding the problem is that there's such a large audience of people who simply don't think about the fact there are "crackpots, lunatics, and agent provocateurs, and nasty people" spreading nonsense....not even for a minute. I watched a news item with a bunch of people rallying against wearing masks as protection against the spread of COVID. One justified his attendance with: "Well there are so many conflicting opinions, it's hard to know what to believe."

And I thought, no there aren't any conflicting opinions if you look to the experts (CDC, AMA, Dr, Fauci, et cetera) for your information. You'll find that the people who know what they're talking about, agree. If you choose to listen to some wacko with an agenda, carry on about how the masks kill people, then sure, you'll be confused.

Last edited by ryck; 08/02/20 04:08 PM.

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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
artie505 #55532 08/02/20 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
The very worst aspect of the Internet is that it's given every crackpot, lunatic, and agent provocateur, not to mention every just plain nasty person, a free platform with unlimited reach, and has thereby made the world a FAR worse place! mad

At the same time, the internet has created a place where the voices of the underclass can be heard and revolutions against oppressive regimes can be coordinated. An internet voice that you hear as an agent provocateur may well be someone else's freedom fighter. It all depends on which side you are on. Freedom of speech is a two edged sword.



Make intentional errors —
Otherwise the Great Spirit realizes you have fulfilled your purpose on earth.

— Navajo saying
Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
joemikeb #55533 08/02/20 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Freedom of speech is a two edged sword.

The problem is that one edge has a lot of people who exercise the freedom without any rational thought or conversation...and that gives way to the kind of problems outlined in Ira's Pizzagate link.

I wonder if that's what Einstein predicted when he wrote to his friend psychiatrist Otto Juliusburger, in 1948: “I believe that the abominable deterioration of ethical standards stems primarily from the mechanization and depersonalization of our lives, a disastrous byproduct of science and technology. Nostra culpa!”

Last edited by ryck; 08/02/20 07:31 PM.

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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
alternaut #55563 08/03/20 10:51 PM
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Trump is considering a ban on TikTok. His following remarks "It's big business" Trump said during an interview with Gray television. "Look what happened with China with the virus, what they've done to this country and to the entire world is disgraceful"

On Mar.17th he said on national television "This is a pandemic I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic" Yet knowing that, he did nothing resulting in tens of thousands of American lives being lost. But wait, what has he done since, nothing! He is obsessed with being re-elected and he is willing to gamble on more American lives to do so.
And now he wants to blame China. An excuse for his own total disregard.


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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
jaybass #55571 08/04/20 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted By: jaybass
Trump is considering a ban on TikTok. His following remarks "It's big business" Trump said during an interview with Gray television. "Look what happened with China with the virus, what they've done to this country and to the entire world is disgraceful"

Trump's wish to shut down TikTok is virus-related but has nothing to do with China and the virus. It's because his total disregard for protecting Americans from the virus caused him great embarrassment.

Ahead of his Tulsa rally he made sure everyone knew that masks were not required and that he wasn't particularly concerned about social distancing. He even boasted that so many people were going to attend, without worrying about COVID precautions, that a huge staging area was being set up to handle the overflow.

Trump did this while Oklahoma was reporting a steady increase of new confirmed coronavirus cases per day and, in Tulsa County particularly, COVID cases were climbing at a record level. Then, a bunch of ticked-off kids on TikTok decided "enough is enough" and brought his rally to its knees.

The White House had a special offer for people who booked into the rally through them. If the people provided their contact information, they could get a free ticket to the rally. The kids jumped into action.

They passed the word along, throughout TikTok, that everyone should accept the White House offer, but not show up at the rally. As the kids started booking more and more seats, President Bonespur began boasting that "millions of people" wanted to come to his rally.

The day of the rally, there were less than 6,000 people in an arena that could hold 10 times that amount. The television visuals of these huge empty spaces was devastating. While the rally was going, a crew quietly disassembled the huge overflow area. Fortunately, TV cameras were present for that too.

So, Trump's wish to ban TikTok is only because he was snookered by a bunch of kids on that platform. I say good for the kids... not only for putting Trump in his place but also for underlining the importance of taking proper precautions with COVID.

And...thanks kids, both for showing great responsibility and for giving the world a giant belly laugh.


Last edited by ryck; 08/04/20 01:57 PM.

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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
joemikeb #55580 08/05/20 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
The very worst aspect of the Internet is that it's given every crackpot, lunatic, and agent provocateur, not to mention every just plain nasty person, a free platform with unlimited reach, and has thereby made the world a FAR worse place! mad

At the same time, the internet has created a place where the voices of the underclass can be heard and revolutions against oppressive regimes can be coordinated. An internet voice that you hear as an agent provocateur may well be someone else's freedom fighter. It all depends on which side you are on. Freedom of speech is a two edged sword.

The Internet has made it easier for "traditional" revolutionary groups and agent provocateurs on both edges of the sword to proselytize and coordinate, but those groups are funded and have always had some sort of platform and means of communication without regard for the Internet.

The quacks, charlatans and other assorted nut case to whom I was referring are generally unfunded and wouldn't have any audience at all without the free platforms with which the Internet has gifted them.

Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
artie505 #55584 08/05/20 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
The quacks, charlatans and other assorted nut case to whom I was referring are generally unfunded and wouldn't have any audience at all without the free platforms with which the Internet has gifted them.

That is the argument used by virtually all repressive regimes. The Emporer of the Holy Roman Empire might have said the same thing about the printing press when it enabled Martin Luther's 39 Thesis to be spread across the entire European continent in less than a fortnight. King George might have made similar comments about the Federalist Papers in the American Colonies. Those same words have recently been used about the internet by governments in Egypt, China, North Korea, and Trump.

Free speech must be for all, not just those whose words we approve of. Those who are thoughtful, analytical, and informed must speak out against the quacks and charlatans, but that does not mean silencing their voices. Children must be taught the discipline of literary analysis to help them distinguish between BS and facts. Freedom of speech must be defended, not decried.



Make intentional errors —
Otherwise the Great Spirit realizes you have fulfilled your purpose on earth.

— Navajo saying
Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
joemikeb #55585 08/05/20 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Free speech must be for all, not just those whose words we approve of.

Especially for President Trump because it provides constant confirmation of how profoundly ignorant he is. Today, responding to a question in a radio interview about COVID, he said: "This thing's going away. It will go away like things go away."

Last edited by ryck; 08/05/20 11:41 PM.

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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
joemikeb #55605 08/08/20 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Free speech must be for all, not just those whose words we approve of. Those who are thoughtful, analytical, and informed must speak out against the quacks and charlatans, but that does not mean silencing their voices. Children must be taught the discipline of literary analysis to help them distinguish between BS and facts. Freedom of speech must be defended, not decried.

I have to disagree with you there, albeit in a qualified manner. While I subscribe to the basic principle of free speech, I can see quite a few instances where exceptions would be preferable, or even necessary. In this context a critical situation is one in which free speech leads to violence or even the abolishing of free speech itself, because for whatever reason the relevant majority is not able or willing to distinguish between BS and facts, or doesn’t care as long as it has its way. History as well as current developments show that this is not just theory.

That said, this issue is likely to center on the location from where one might exercise free speech. We can and do limit that on occasion here in the forums, and other (private) platforms increasingly curtail speech to fight (or promote) things like mis/disinformation, propaganda, conspiracy theories and outright lies, usually in a political setting.


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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
alternaut #55607 08/09/20 01:26 PM
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Freedom of speech is not absolute. It is a hallowed tradition in law that freedom of speech does not give anyone the right to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater and a rule on FineTunedMac that personal attacks are not permitted. Even Twitter and Facebook are now fact-checking posts and have taken down some of the President's more egregious statements. But, everyone is entitled to express their personal opinion or belief. Oppression occurs when attempts are made to silence other voices than "ours" (whoever our is or thinks they are).



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Otherwise the Great Spirit realizes you have fulfilled your purpose on earth.

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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
joemikeb #55622 08/11/20 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Free speech must be for all, not just those whose words we approve of. Those who are thoughtful, analytical, and informed must speak out against the quacks and charlatans, but that does not mean silencing their voices. Children must be taught the discipline of literary analysis to help them distinguish between BS and facts. Freedom of speech must be defended, not decried.

I'm totally against restrictions on freedom of speech.

I'm just lamenting the freedom's having been turned against us.

Speaking out against quacks and charlatans, and teaching children to distinguish between BS and facts is tried and true methodology, and I'm sure it's still effective in confined situations, but between our being at a point at which the quacks and charlatans very often sound more intriguing and captivating than the voice of reason, and the Internet has so blurred the border between fact and fiction that it's almost impossible for anybody, regardless of who or what they are, to sound any more credible than they do, I doubt that it's still got any widespread applicability.

The quacks and charlatans are the Pied Piper, and the Internet is their pipe.

Maybe what really needs to be restricted is freedom to listen?

Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
joemikeb #55623 08/11/20 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Freedom of speech is not absolute.

Going back to Don Imus's firing, when Joe Love said to me "It's the beginning of the end of free speech," I've seen frequent confusion about precisely what "free speech" is.

This may be an over-simplification, but "free speech" needs to be appended with an "on your own dime" caveat.

You stand up a box on a street corner, you can say whatever you damn please, but if someone's paying you to stand on that box...you're bound by their rules.

And similarly, FTM and ALL other websites have got an unlimited right to police their own spaces.

It's a shame that it's taken Twitter and Facebook so long to exercise their rights.

Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
artie505 #55632 08/11/20 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
It's a shame that it's taken Twitter and Facebook so long to exercise their rights.

Right, but what about that pesky social responsibility, duty even? Not surprisingly, all that appears subject to the almighty Dollar, hence the reluctance to excercise any 'rights' beyond the bottom line. That also dictates the approach to be taken when the public starts making noises, for users are the means to an end. 'Social' media, indeed...


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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
alternaut #55639 08/12/20 06:49 AM
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The most socially responsible thing Facebook and Twitter (and others?) could do is declare themselves to in fact be EXCLUSIVELY social...to the COMPLETE exclusion of politics.

Yeah, nice thought.

Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
ryck #55649 08/12/20 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Free speech must be for all, not just those whose words we approve of.

Especially for President Trump because it provides constant confirmation of how profoundly ignorant he is.

And he doesn't let too much time pass before he once again provides evidence of his ignorance, stating that the Spanish flu probably ended WW II.

Last edited by ryck; 08/12/20 05:15 PM.

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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
alternaut #55751 08/19/20 02:08 AM
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And, if you were wondering why Florida California is in such deep trouble, perhaps this will explain things.

Last edited by ryck; 08/19/20 03:24 AM.

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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
ryck #55752 08/19/20 03:09 AM
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Huntington Beach is in California...which I guess explains a lot of the idiocy in the video.

Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
artie505 #55754 08/19/20 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
Huntington Beach is in California...

Oh crap. Thanks for the catch. Someone had sent me the video with the Florida title and I just did a search for the link....without checking the information on the page. What a bone-headed mistake.


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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
ryck #55756 08/19/20 09:50 AM
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When Einstein concluded that human stupidity is infinite, he underestimated the size of infinity.


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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
jchuzi #55757 08/19/20 02:38 PM
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That's for sure. A good example is the guy who exclaims that it's all a B.S. hoax. He hasn't even thought: "Let's see. For my opinion to be correct, most of the countries in the world would have had to collude....and they'd all have to agree their economies should tank."

Sometimes the stupidity is stupefying.

Last edited by ryck; 08/19/20 02:39 PM.

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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
ryck #55761 08/19/20 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
And, if you were wondering why Florida California is in such deep trouble, perhaps this will explain things.


As a California resident this truly saddens me. One consolation might be that Huntington Beach is in Orange County, historically a Republican stronghold, and as such does not (politically) represent the majority of Californians. Although their Congressional seat was flipped in the last general election.

I wonder if the woman in the beginning who argued it was her choice would give that same freedom to a Pro-Choice pregnant woman? confused
Also note that she objected to breathing in her own "carbon monoxide". I wouldn't want to breathe in anyone's carbon monoxide; carbon dioxide, maybe; monoxide, no way. grin


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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
Ira L #55770 08/19/20 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ira L
I wonder if the woman in the beginning who argued it was her choice would give that same freedom to a Pro-Choice pregnant woman? confused

I think the "It's my choice" argument is totally bogus. If a person wants to ride a motorcycle without a helmet or travel by car without a seatbelt, and the result is that someone has to scrape their brains off the pavement, that's "their choice". Their choice meant they only hurt themselves.

However, if they refuse to wear a mask and pass a deadly virus to someone else, they don't get to claim it's a "their choice". Nobody gets to choose that someone else dies.

They're just self-centred ignorant jerks.


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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
Ira L #55773 08/20/20 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ira L
Originally Posted By: ryck
And, if you were wondering why Florida California is in such deep trouble, perhaps this will explain things.


As a California resident this truly saddens me.

The linked video is probably a fair representation of the negative response you'd get anywhere, not just in CA, although in all likelihood, it isn't anywhere near a fair representation of the actual thanks/no thanks response.

And it demonstrates the folly of confronting people over COVID at this particular moment in American history. (Particularly when you know you're in right-leaning territory.)

Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
ryck #55778 08/20/20 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
Originally Posted By: Ira L
I wonder if the woman in the beginning who argued it was her choice would give that same freedom to a Pro-Choice pregnant woman? confused

I think the "It's my choice" argument is totally bogus. If a person wants to ride a motorcycle without a helmet or travel by car without a seatbelt, and the result is that someone has to scrape their brains off the pavement, that's "their choice". Their choice meant they only hurt themselves.

However, if they refuse to wear a mask and pass a deadly virus to someone else, they don't get to claim it's a "their choice". Nobody gets to choose that someone else dies.

They're just self-centred ignorant jerks.


I don't think helmets, seat belts, no smoking, etc. are just for the good of the user. There are medical and other costs associated with individual behaviors that impact everyone.

And yes, the reasons for a mask are completely lost on some people.



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Re: Coronavirus information: assorted web links
Ira L #55780 08/20/20 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ira L
I don't think helmets, seat belts, no smoking, etc. are just for the good of the user. There are medical and other costs associated with individual behaviors that impact everyone.

And yes, the reasons for a mask are completely lost on some people.

Those who believe their personal choices don't have an impact on others would be a lot more believable if they would irrevocably give up their right to bring a lawsuit if they suffer personal injury due to the actions of someone else.



Make intentional errors —
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