Yesterday I solved the printing problem (detailed elsewhere here) by sourcing and buying an identical Brother printer which I installed this morning. All four Macs here print on it, as I anticipated.

However, while telling all four Macs to go+find the new printer driver (an unexpected and pesky task), I had a BLOOD RUNS COLD scenario. My trusty old G4 when switched on, displayed the Question Mark instead of booting up. Couldn't find a bootable disk. OH MY GAHHHHDD!

Keeping calm, I found the System Restore CD and booted off that, then did Repair Disk utility on the hard drive. Nothing reported, and it booted back again as usual.

Phew. A few more grey hairs.

Here's my idea and I can't see much wrong with it.

To my amazement there are loads of folks selling PowerPC G4s on e-Bay, because they've upgraded to Intel Macs. I've just bid a tiny amount for one in good operating condition and he'll post it (some sellers say collect-only). This one is more recent than mine, I can tell from the spec.

Plan is, I get all my files off my trustyG4 and put them on the e-Bay one. Then I have a FireWire port to make a bootable backup hard disk. (To my astonishment, my current trustyG4 is so old that is has no FireWire port and I know that Macs cannot boot off a USB external hard disk.......)

IF it don't work, I've only spent that tiny amount. If it don't work, there are other good-condition PowerPC G4s out there.

Wish me luck!

Minor correction/clarification to prevent confusion. Macs with a Power PC processor (G3, G4, G5) cannot boot from a USB connected drive. Macs with Intel processors can boot from either Firewire or USB connected drives.

That said your plan should work, but I would want a return guarantee in case the used G4 arrived dead on arrival. I would also insist that it include the original set of install CDs/DVD that came with the computer. No matter how small the price if you do not get the original install discs it is not worth the price. Remember too that if you intend to upgrade to a more recent version of OS X, unless you have a "family pack" license installing another copy of OS X from another Mac you are still using — if it will install at all — is a violation of Apple's software license agreement and therefore illegal.

> My trusty old G4 when switched on, displayed the Question Mark instead of booting up. Couldn't find a bootable disk. OH MY GAHHHHDD!

Have you checked /Apps/SysPrefs>Startup Disk to be certain that the correct volume is selected?

(If you do buy that new G4, be certain to take joemike's advice.)

Why not? Assuming it works as promised: if it is dead on arrival I'll get my money back: that's the deal with eBay and Pay-Pal, it says on both their sites.

Why are the original instal disks so vital? Are you saying that it will only re-instal from them and no other System Restore disks? If that's the case why are OS Systems downloadable from Apple?

I'm up for this. I have all the installation CDs for all the softwares I'm using. I have System disks for both OS9 and OSX Tiger. I can copy all my files to another Mac and copy them back when the "new" e-Bay computer arrives, should I win the auction.





I won't be using OSX on that computer but it comes with it anyway. I've chosen an AppleMac G4 M/Door1Ghz/500mb, DVD/USB/Ethernet/Firewire from e-Bay which is specifically bootable to OS9 and OSx.

I hope it all works as I plan. The trusty-G4* has no FireWire, no CD write (only read), and a HUGE crt monitor. I'm now also planning to buy a flat screen just like the other G4 on the other desk.

License violation? Yes I've got a family pack but even if I didn't what are they going to do? Come round here and rip it out?

Edited to add: when I say "The trusty-G4" I mean the OLD one on my other desk, the one which I'm planning to replace. I do not mean the one I'm planning to buy. I call it "The trusty-G4" because it's been SUCH a workhorse down the years and has hardly ever given me any problems and when it did, they were fixable. Good ol' trusty.

The original install discs are important in the even you ever need to do any serious troubleshooting. They, and only they, will have the Apple Hardware Test suite that is appropriate for the computer you are buying. Even more pertinent in your case virtually all G4s that will run OS 9 will only install and run the specific OS 9 that came on the original install discs that were shipped with the G4 from the factory. So if you ever have to reinstall OS 9 and do not have the original install discs — you are toast.

Sadly it has all too often been the case on machines purchased on eBay that any discs provided are not compatible with the machine they are bundled with to the chagrin and often deep regret of the purchaser. There were any number of such cases reported on MFIF and as I recall there have been a few reported on FTM as well.

FYI, there are no legal copies of any Apple OS available for download on the internet and never have been. The only legal OS downloads are upDATEs that require the original version or a previous update to already be installed. In other words if you have installed OS X 10.4 from a CD you can download and install OS X 10.4.1, 10.4.2, 10.4.3, etc. but you cannot download and install an OS X 10.5 upGRADE. For that you need to purchase a retail copy of OS X 10.5. So far Apple has always relied on the honesty and integrity of their users to enforce their licensing agreements. However, I am quite confident that if enough people choose to steal Apple software they will resort to more draconian measures which will inevitably make life more difficult for every Mac user. Just so you know, discussion and/or requests for help where pirated or illegal software is involved can result in the thread being removed from Fine Tuned Mac and in extreme cases the suspension or even banning of the member.

> Assuming it works as promised: if it is dead on arrival I'll get my money back: that's the deal with eBay and Pay-Pal, it says on both their sites.

I wonder if that includes instances in which the seller's terms are "As is; no returns."

Edit: Did you check /Apps/SysPrefs>Startup Disk?

> They, and only they, will have the Apple Hardware Test suite that is appropriate for the computer you are buying.

Apple has posted "Apple Hardware Test Images and Information" for various older Macs here, and I believe Bensheim's MDD G4 is one of them.

(In offering the same AHT image for multiple Macs the article apparently puts to rest, to a degree, at least, the belief that AHT discs are unique to the Macs with which they ship.)

In a different vein, you forgot to mention that original discs include bundled software that will be lost in the event a reinstallation with retail discs becomes necessary.

I do hope this is a dual processor G4 1GHz MDD. There was a single proc 1 GHz MDD, but that was a FireWire800 model which would not directly boot OS9 (only Classic via OSX).

Well, this is fun and it sure takes my mind off other real-life stuff. I'm spending hours of research, reading technical specifications for different desktops, reading page after page on this site:

http://www.everymac.com/

which is highly recommended. It's like a DIY: The History of the Desktop Mac from 1990 onwards. I am learning so much!

In reverse: Mike, thanks for the heads-up. The e-bay one is a single processor MDD. However since the vendor did not set a reserve price and there are so few bids so far, I might end up having to buy it (e-Bay regulations) for only £12. TWELVE POUNDS! Blimey, even if it and I are toast, that's only £12 lost. Also, Mike, thanks, the other one I've got my eye on, on Amazon, is identical but with a 1-year warranty. I didn't buy that one but nearly did before you alerted me. That was close.........

In my researches for ~3 hours this afternoon I've come across a good-looking refurb with dual processors, then some 6th sense made me Google the reselling company. What a good job I did that too! There's a 5-page thread on another Mac forum (75 posts) trying to warn the world that that company are rip-off sharks selling stolen goods and illegally copied software. That was close, too.......

Artie, re: Did you check /Apps/SysPrefs>Startup Disk?

Uh? Wrong thread?

Joe, in 15 years in this job on many different Macs, I have never once had to do a Hardware Test Suite test. I have also never once had to reinstal an operating system. Not once. With all due respect, which is considerable, I can't help wondering if some people are too afraid/doomy/negative about what might possibly happen? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a dippy air-head Pollyanna type. I am very respectful to these Macs and treat them kindly and do my back-ups......

Yes, of course, you're right about downloading upgrades. I'd forgotten that bit. Sorry!

As to the rest of your post, did you mean to come across as threatening - as a Mod? It looks like a veiled threat to ban me which seems very odd, frankly. Especially since this forum is so quiet, and I contribute so many new threads all of which get responses. The world is full of Mac-support forums, Joe, and this is not the only one I use. It looks as though I irritated you or hit a sore point.

On with the research, I've now found a company only 100 miles away which specialises in refurb Macs. They offer back-to-base warranties on their goods so I've emailed them about a G4 for sale on their website. And if they also turn out to be duds (i.e., answer unsatisfactorily or not at all), that doesn't matter much either. I have a Plan B.

Last point: if I lived in the USA this would all be so much easier. There are dozens of companies, hundreds maybe, selling refurb desktops to my exact specifications. But yet again some 6th sense tells me not to buy an American one....I bet the power supply is different or something fundamental like that.

> Artie, re: Did you check /Apps/SysPrefs>Startup Disk?

Uh? Wrong thread?

I posed that question in post #6304, the second response to your original post in this thread.

"My trusty old G4 when switched on, displayed the Question Mark instead of booting up. Couldn't find a bootable disk" is a classic description of what happens when you start up a Mac that does not have a disk selected in /Apps/SysPrefs>Startup Disk and is not at all necessarily indicative of your Mac being dead, terminal, or even ill.

> Joe, in 15 years in this job on many different Macs, I have never once had to do a Hardware Test Suite test. I have also never once had to reinstal an operating system. Not once. With all due respect, which is considerable, I can't help wondering if some people are too afraid/doomy/negative about what might possibly happen?

Interesting point of view considering your opinion of insurance as expressed in "Financial surveys: a rant," i.e. "Regarding 'something you did not anticipate reaching out to bite you when you least expect it and probably when you can least afford it' that's precisely what Insurance is for, isn't it? We've got insurance policies for everything [....]" (And "The entire insurance industry is predicated on fear. They make people afraid of what-ifs.")

I, too, hate insurance and the fact that so much of our world is based on "What ifs," but you're disdaining free insurance, i.e. the discs joemike mentioned, because you've never needed it in the past, and that strikes me as foolhardy.

Since lots of lurkers may be reading this thread at one time or another, and the issue of licensing had come up, my comment was intended as a heads up for any and all readers of the thread and not a threat, veiled or otherwise. Frankly I long ago lost count of how many times on MFIF and now FTM I have made a similar comment in a thread. My apologies if you took it personally.

FWIW, I had one of the dual processor MDDs and it was a nice machine, really fast in its day but almost painfully slow by today's standards. It was the first Mac that would only boot or run the very specific version of OS 9 that came on the original install discs and that version of OS 9 would not run on anything other than the dual processor MDD. There were two power supplies for that model, the first was so noisy Apple released a free, user installed, replacement. The replacement power supply had a lower amperage rating but as I recall it was self adjusting for 50~ or 60~ and 120v or 240v so it could be used in Europe or the states.

Good luck finding what you are looking for.

It is with great relief that I tell you that I was outbid on e-Bay. Extensive research confirmed that I didn't want that G4 because of its limitations and I was wondering what to do next if I had won the auction. Fortunately I had had prior contact with the seller by email, so was able to contact him directly. He is a really NICE person, very friendly and polite. And now someone else has bought it so no doubt he's happy.

I have now bought a much better spec tower G4 from Amazon, and have had email contact with that seller too. He also seems a very nice, friendly, person. This G4 will boot off OS9 and run OSX, has a 1-year warranty and has passed all Apple Diagnostics before going on sale. I'm so glad I'm not the only person in the Mac Universe who still wants OS9! There are lots of us around to run treasured applications - mostly designers, apparently.

Over the weekend this need to replace Trusty-G4 has become more pressing. Yesterday upon start-up I got the question mark again. Second time in a week. I got it to boot successfully by inserting the System Recovery bootable disk, wait patiently, and then select Shut Down. The second start-up from the power button worked. I have therefore decided to leave it on from now on. As someone once said "things fail when you switch them off and on again" so it's going to stay on until the new computer arrives. The monitor's switched off when I'm not using it. I have also researched this - leaving a computer on 24/7 - on the internet and can't see a potential problem: it's in an unheated room, by a window, so there won't be an overheating problem. It doesn't run any scripts overnight. However, I'd like to hear if anyone else leaves their Mac on all the time, please?

Another question: How easy is it to replace a Mac internal CD/DVD drive? The one in the other office G4 will no longer write. It will read, but with difficulty. Looks like a hardware problem because of the clunking noises.

Is this something I can do myself? I've researched that too, and it involves opening the case and dismantling the drive up there on the tower.....this scares me somewhat.

Many thanks

If there's some particular reason for your having ignored this exchange I'd love to know what it is; perhaps I'll learn something.


Thanks.

Hallo Artie

Because the Trusty-G4 only has one disk. Yes I did check SysPrefs/Startup Disk after the last ?

It was already selected.

Am I missing something here? Sorry.

The fact that the G4 has only one disk does not mean that it cannot become unselected, but the fact that you're seeing the question mark while it is selected means that that is not your issue. (Edit: By the way... Everybody has at least two options in /Apps/SysPrefs/Startup Disk, their HD being one and "Network Startup" being the other.)

(You're not missing anything other than the understanding that I [Edit: sometimes] have no way of translating silence into English.)

Sometimes, a computer may refuse to start up if the Startup Disk selection becomes garbled. This can happen for many reasons--if the backup battery dies, if the computer's PRAM is cleared, or (as near as I can tell) if the phase of the moon is wrong.

Usually, if this information becomes garbled, the computer will simply take a longer than normal time to start up, but sometimes it will refuse to start up altogether. So checking the Startup Disk setting is a good first step in troubleshooting a computer that refuses to boot, even if the computer only has one disk.

Only you can be the judge of your comfort level when rummaging around inside the chassis of your Mac, but replacing, or adding a hard drive or optical drive in a tower model is pretty simple and generally only requires one tool, a phillips (cross) screwdriver and depending on the model maybe not event that. I also use a grounding strap to prevent inadvertent damage to sensitive components from static electricity, but I am probably in the minority there. Pictorial instructions can usually be found in the owners manual that came with the Mac or you can download the manual here.

I have replaced several drives over the years and the only ill effects suffered by me or the computer is the occasional skinned knuckle from working in tight quarters with lots of sharp metal edges around. In my experience the most difficult part of the operation is often unplugging the ATA ribbon cable and the power connector on the old drive. Those are generally tight fitting connections and, with my big hands and fat fingers, difficult to get a firm grip on.

You may be able to download a video showing installation of an optical drive by going here and selecting the particular G4 model that you have. As Joe said, the hardest part can be removing the cables, particularly the power cable, in my experience. If you can't get it free by hand, take pliers, grip the sides of the connector (NOT THE WIRES!) and wiggle it gently from side to side. That worked for me.

Putting everything back is much easier, luckily.

I thank you ALL for your responses, which are so much appreciated. TBH I sometimes feel kinda lonely here with the full weight of tech-support on my shoulders. I shouldn't feel that way because (a) I have been using Macs since 1986 and have installed and converted up and up through the range ever since; and (b) there is masses of help available, now, on the internet. The lonely feeling derives from being the only one here with that background and I used to work in a big IT department with other shoulders to lean on, PLUS in those days, they weren't my computers, I could go home at the end of the day and leave things to someone else!

Anyway. We've had a Big Discussion here and decided to replace both old trusty-G4s. They work, they're in full production, but parts of them are no longer reliable (power-on on one, disk burning on another) which makes me very uneasy and adds to the stress which is inherent in running a DTP business.

I have done HOURS of research and do not make buying decisions lightly! I've now bought a G4 MDD dual processor tower from Amazon, which should arrive by the end of the week. The specification is as high as I can achieve for what I want, which is booting into OS9 for those applications for that job in this office. I've got a retail OS9 on its way in the post and also have a version of Norton (never used) which will work on OS9 and OSX for disk recovery/maintenance.

The other trusty-G4, I've sourced and bought an iMac G4 (the one which looks like a desk lamp) which will come in original box with all original parts and original System Disks. I've got Disk Warrior for OSX (also never used).

While you're there, thank you for reading my posts and treating me decently. If you didn't, I would have left by now. Why do I mention this? Shouldn't anyone on a forum like this expect to be treated decently? Well, I dipped a toe into the e-Bay "community" forum and asked a question about computers being sold without their system disks (prompted by responses here). The response was so hostile that it made me blink. After a few hours I replied calmly that I have been using computers for YEARS and do my research and know what I'm looking for, adding that a hostile response to an e-Bay newbie was unwelcoming.

The next response was so ad hominem that I goggled at the screen. The person said that "I did not know what I was doing, had no idea about computers, should get some proper IT support, and should not be going onto eBay and 'buying things at random' ". So I did the only thing possible there. I hit the Report button and left.

PayPal's driving me round the twist too, but that's another topic.

Norton should be fine for OS9 but it's poison in OSX. Stick with Disk Warrior and be sure that your version is compatible with the version of OSX that you will be using.

A retail copy of OS 9 will not boot a G4 MDD dual processor model. I had a G4 MDD dual processor model and can personally vouch for the fact it will only boot from the version of OS 9 on the install discs that came in the box with the G4 MDD. G4s prior to the MDD would boot the retail version of OS 9, but beginning with the MDD model each required the specific OS 9 version that was on the install discs for each particular model until Macs would not boot OS 9 at all.

I second Jon's comment about using Norton Utilities. Using the version that will run on OS 9 on a Mac using OS X is definitely not recommended. Norton of that vintage was infamous for doing more harm than good. Later OS X versions of Norton were not much if any better until Symantec finally withdrew Norton Utilities for Macintosh altogether. If you plan to use NUM, I would suggest that you not install OS X on your G4 MDD and run only OS 9, assuming you have a version of OS 9 that will boot your MDD.

> A retail copy of OS 9 will not boot a G4 MDD dual processor model.

...as you've already stated in your post #6390 in this thread.

No one has answered this question:



I posted that on Sunday and it has not been switched off since then. Some days, like today, I do not need that Mac, so I don't even switch the monitor on.

Does anyone else here leave their Mac on 24/7? Thanks.

WRT the computers awaiting delivery, I'll let you know how I got on when they arrive.

I do. unless I'll be away from it for more than a day.

but them I'll usually take it with me.

My Macs are turned on the day they are installed and only turned off when necessary for a specific maintenance procedure/routine or when they are transferred to other locations. I also have my system set to not sleep.

I leave the computer on 24/7, and just sleep the monitor when I'm not using it. Beyond issues of wear and tear and security, you might want to consider energy use. My Mac's a mini, which uses only 85 watts; the MDD draws on the order of 7.5 amps, or about ten times as much power.

same as jooemike

uptime
20:44 up 22 days, 22:05, 3 users, load averages: 0.71 0.86 0.89

I only reboot when needed or when over a month. the laptop gets sleeped all the time of course but the other machines do not. I keep running into people with macbooks that have no idea you can sleep it and avoid the restart delay when you get it out.

I wonder if that quote is based on old designs. I have always turned televisions off when not in use - which would be several times per day - and they've always lasted for years. I'm not a Mac Technician but I would assume that they're built with a device that adjusts the power in stages when the computer is turned on, to reduce the impact of full voltage.

My practice is always to logout and set the monitor to sleep during the day. At night the computer is off.

ryck

My former computer, a G4 DP 450, had problems sleeping. Consequently, I shut down whenever I was finished with a session, often several times a day. I had that computer for 7 years with nary a hiccup.

To my personal knowledge the argument to shut down or not shut down has been going on since the very early 1970s and there has never been a definitive conclusion either way.

The argument for powering down when the computer is not in use holds that turning the computer off saves energy (no argument about that from here) and leaving it on causes the components to age prematurely and thus shortens the life of the machine. Corporate users generally find the energy savings the most compelling argument and shut down.

The argument for leaving the computer on is the "thermal shock" created by the components continually cooling and then reheating tends to weaken solder joints on the logic board, and the frequent expansion and contraction can eventually cause components to suffer mechanical breaks and thereby shorten the life of the machine.

Pick your side, either side, and you will have plenty of company but no genuinely scientific evidence to back it up.

I have chosen the "leave it on" position for four reasons:

1. Modern OSs take so blooming long to start up, I haven't got the patience to sit around waiting on the computer to start up. NOTE: Staged power up would make the boot time even longer and would almost certainly have a negative effect on sales of systems using such a scheme
2. I got in the habit in the early days of the OS X Public Beta when the Daily, Weekly, Monthly maintenance routines ran late at night and of course did not run unless the machine was not only on but awake. I know I could have used Cocktail to manually run the routines but that is a pain and I always forgot. (That was before Cocktail would run automatically and even longer before OnyX or any of the other maintenance utilities were written.)
3. I never remembered to do regular backups, so I used automated backup routines that took a long time and I ran them at night when I was in bed. Again the computer had to be on and awake for that to happen
4. I have never had any problems leaving my Macs on 24x365 and most computer failures I have encountered too often seem to correspond with booting up.

I hear what you're saying about no scientific evidence but, on this one, I have to say "I'm from Missouri." It just doesn't jibe with my simple-minded reality check which is:

a) I have lots of stuff that generates much more heat, but still lasts an awfully long time without that kind of failure. My old cathode ray TV is a good case in point.

b) To affect a solder joint, I assume the heat inside a device would have to be close to the heat at the end of a soldering iron, but that kind of heat would have to have a serious effect on other things before affecting solder.

ryck

It is not the heat that effects the solder joints it is the expansion and contraction of the circuit board that eventually causes the solder joints to crack and break loose.

The title of this thread offers nary a clue as to what its content might be, and now that content has branched off into an entirely different line of thought that I think deserves its own thread. (I've notified the Mods.)

What amazes me, though, is that Mods are active participants in this hi-jacking without recognizing it as such.

Bensheim's original post had to do with a strategy for acquiring a back-up G4. That strategy, along with various related issues, was discussed at length, apparently to Bensheim's satisfaction.

He then posed an additional question which grew organically out of the original discussion:


Following this, while you were trying to get an answer to your initial question (a question which itself, ironically, might be regarded as off-topic), there were a few posts dealing with other side issues: replacing internal optical drives, whether or not one should use Norton products in OS 9.

Then Bensheim reiterated the earlier request for feedback: "Does anyone else here leave their Mac on 24/7? Thanks." The nine subsequent posts all dealt with this question or with issues directly relating to it. Since the question was posed by the original poster after satisfactory resolution of the issue raised in the initial post, no moderator intervention was called for. Note that this is not at all analagous to the situation in which a participant other than the original poster raises an off-topic question in a thread whose initial issue has yet to be resolved.

Since this thread-within-a-thread is clearly off-topic by pretty much any definition, though, let's not continue it here.

Hallo again. I expect you've all been wondering where I've been and how The Big Project is progressing.

It's been a bumpy ride......

The Original Mission was to replace the two (in full production) G4s which run OS9, with (used (obviously)) G4s, to continue to run OS9. I did weeks of research on the internet. As I said, I was up for this. Somewhere along my research route, someone told me on another forum that "I did not know enough about this and should get proper IT support", or words to that effect. I dismissed this as just plain rude verging on offensive. Later on, however, I learned some more, the hard way.........

The MDD G4 arrived from Amazon first. It is ASTONISHINGLY HEAVY. It is a beautiful machine and I'm sure it runs splendidly. However, the seller had loaded Leopard 10.5, not Tiger 10.4. Therefore it would not boot into OS9 which I could see on the disk. I contacted the seller and he offered to send me a hard disk in the post containing Tiger and instructions how to carbon-copy it over. This avenue was discontinued and the MDD is now back in its box under my dining table.

Then I had very traumatic dental surgery necessitating stitches in my jaw, that was new.......

The e-Bay iMac G4 arrived next. It is a beautiful machine and looks like this: http://images.apple.com/support/_images/hero_imacG4.jpg It has 10.4 installed. It came in original packaging and all original system disks.

Still in my dogged quest to have another OS9-bootable new Mac here, I found to my surprise, that it did not have OS9 installed. It would, however, run Classic. That's when I found out that Classic's not much use.....it would see other OSX machines on our network but not the OS9 ones, of course. STUPID ME.

The next thing I did was Very Stupid Indeed. I am perfectly capable of beating myself up and calling myself an idiot, so you can have a good laugh now.

I reinstalled the OS from the disk provided, thinking that that way I'd get the OS9 I desired, on this machine. However, the disk provided was 10.2, Puma, only. No OS9 despite what it says in the handbook. That installed as it should but left the iMac G4 in a worse state than it was when I unpacked it. STUPID ME. STUPID ME. STUPID ME. I retired to bed with sleeping pill and painkillers.

The next day I had a good long hard bike ride and a good long hard think. I then had a good long hard talk with my boss and stated that the Original Mission was now unachievable. Too much time has elapsed. Technology has moved on in the interim 10 years and we have not kept pace. Therefore, this hopeless devotion to OS9 (Specifically, ClarisWorks) has come to an end. All the DTP work must now be done in Pages which we already have. The accounts work is already half-being-done on Numbers anyway and spreadsheets are pretty much the same. I achieved grudging consent.

Today I re-unpacked the cute iMac G4 (photo above) and started over. I had by now discovered how to change the Admin password (THANK GOODNESS) and had to do that first. Then I installed OSX 10.4 Tiger from a family pack which I have here anyway (Thank Goodness). That worked fine. I did a clean install to get rid of the STUPID ME Puma episode.

Now, I have to get the updates for Tiger; then I can load iWorks (also from a family pack I have here) and FileMaker which THANK GOODNESS runs on both PowerPC and Intel Macs.

THEN I must find a way of transferring the large customer database from the old OS9 G4s in ClarisWorks to the iMacG4. FileMaker's support site is full of help. I'll have to use a data stick.

I can't proceed any further atm, however, because I'm working right up till Christmas, then I'm going away, then I'm working again as soon as I get back on the 28th. There's no space in the office to put the cute iMacG4 to download the Tiger updates while we are working. That'll have to wait till next weekend.

I don't know what I'm going to do about the MDD. I might never use it. I'd prefer to get the database converted on the iMacG4 first and then maybe buy another one of those. I don't fancy becoming an eBay seller either, I don't have time for that rigmarole. That can all wait for a bit.

Thanks for reading and I don't mind if you also call me stupid. I'd prefer a salute for my determination to get something out of this and move on, though. Thanks......

When I clicked to your post my room immediately began filling with smoke, and all that was left after I opened a coupl'a windows and cleared the air was...


Let's get real... Bensheim hijacked his own thread (It has still not reached its logical conclusion.), and, in the process, changed a relatively uninteresting (in my opinion, anyhow) thread with a totally uncaptivating name into an interesting one (and I mean interesting content as well as of general interest) with the same totally uncaptivating name.

As a result, any number of visitors to FTM may never (have) look(ed) at the thread, and any number of others may (have) look(ed) at it but never see(n) the interesting stuff at the bottom of the page.

(How can my initial question can be considered off-topic when it was the logical first response to "My trusty old G4 when switched on, displayed the Question Mark instead of booting up. Couldn't find a bootable disk. OH MY GAHHHHDD!?")

> However, the seller had loaded Leopard 10.5, not Tiger 10.4. Therefore it would not boot into OS9 which I could see on the disk.

Did you actually try to boot into OS 9?

My understanding is that a Mac that is capable of booting OS 9 can do so regardless of which version of OS X is installed on it as long as "Mac OS 9 Drivers" have been installed, and if you couldn't boot your MDD into OS 9 it may be no more of an issue than installing those drivers (installation instructions being readily available).

The Tiger/Leopard thing applies to "Classic Environment," support for which was discontinued in Leopard.

Your determination and fortitude are certainly admirable; keep at it, and good luck.

Edit: > Then I installed OSX 10.4 Tiger from a family pack which I have here anyway (Thank Goodness).

I really hate to do this to you, but I must tell you that your use of a Family Pack to install Tiger may be a violation of Apple's "SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR MAC OS X."

The Leopard SLA, found here, states (on page 73):

(Emphasis added)

I believe the same limitation applies to your iWorks discs.

Artie,

I'm glad you've posted again today. Your previous post - "relatively uninteresting" and "uncaptivating" I found quite hurtful. WRT the thread title and the possibility that others going down the same trail as me might not locate this thread, there's always the Search function. I get the overwhelming majority of my help/research needs on the Apple Support site and forums nowadays and usually find what I want by using Search rather than scrolling down pages of not-exactly-titled threads. I also can't help thinking that if any of the Mods had had a problem with the title they would have dealt with it by now.

Did I try to boot into OS9? Of course. It was the very first thing I did. How else would I know that it would not boot into OS9?

Anyway, as I said in my previous post, this pursuit of OS9 has now come to an end.

You might be faintly interested to hear that last night I had a blinding moment of realisation, aka The Penny Drops. I just wish I had had this epiphany a year ago; it would have saved a great deal of time, effort and money. The only software I need to buy (and it has now been ordered; I found a vendor on the net) is AppleWorks. AppleWorks 6.4 is both PowerPC and Intel installable; AND will read all the current ClarisWorks files including the vital customer database. Therefore I could use it on the two Intel iMacs AND the two PowerPc G4s if necessary. Since by then they'll all be running OSX they will finally all talk to each other as they should.

The blinding moment of realisation was thus: "It's not the processor, it's the operating system!".

So therefore I'm going to keep the MDD, especially since I now know how to change the admin password without which I couldn't load any new s/w.

And if that don't work I'll cross that bridge then. I am very determined. I have to be!

> Your previous post - "relatively uninteresting" and "uncaptivating" I found quite hurtful. WRT the thread title and the possibility that others going down the same trail as me might not locate this thread, there's always the Search function.

1. I certainly didn't mean to be hurtful, Bensheim, and I'm sorry that my post struck you as such, but I still think that your quest for a new, ancient Mac was "relatively uninteresting" to much of FTM's readership, and that since the title of your thread offers nary a clue as to its content it would not have attracted the attention of people who might have been interested in your quest but were unaware of it because they simply cruise FTM's thread lists to see if anything interests them rather than visit every thread as I and others do.

2. I didn't mention "others going down the same trail," but since you have, what search term would you suggest that would call up your thread? It just plain doesn't have a specific topic.

3. It's true that people interested in the question of turning a Mac off as opposed sleeping it could search for the subject and find your thread, but the topic is one that many people who would never ask themselves the question would find interesting enough to read were it stuck under their noses.

> So therefore I'm going to keep the MDD, especially since I now know how to change the admin password without which I couldn't load any new s/w.

Rather than using the MDD "as is," I suggest that you first run a surface scan to see whether its HD has got any bad blocks, and if not, follow that with an erase and install of whichever version of OS X you elect to run; if so, post back here for assistance.

> Did I try to boot into OS9? Of course. It was the very first thing I did. How else would I know that it would not boot into OS9?

No offense intended, but you might have simply assumed that the MDD would not boot into OS 9 by virtue of the fact that it has Leopard installed on it.

> I also can't help thinking that if any of the Mods had had a problem with the title they would have dealt with it by now.

I'll be good; I swear I'll be good!

And finally, I'll say that although your journey has wound up, apparently successfully, with your company upgrading its hardware and software it all might have been totally unnecessary had you originally posted (or searched for) "My Mac boots to a question mark."

Accordingly, and although I realize that you may not the least bit inclined to do any favors for me, when you finally reach the point at which you're comfortable turning your "trusty old G4" off would you please follow the instructions in "Resetting your Mac's PRAM and NVRAM", reselect your startup disk in /Apps/Sys Prefs/Startup Disk after the G4 has booted (Give it some time.), restart, and let us know how you make out.

In closing, I'm pleased that you've apparently worked your issue out to your satisfaction, and I wish you the very best of luck with your new hardware/software configuration.