Office network 4 Macs still running 10.4 Tiger. Shock horror, call me crazy if you wish.

Why? Because it works! There must be thousands (tens of thousands?) of other Tiger-users still out there, just like us.

Last time I bought replacement Macs, I installed Tiger onto them. Now I'm considering replacing the replacements, because one of them has a small screen and the other is so noisy (it's a "windtunnel" tower). But they both work fine, as do the other two flat-screen iMacs.

The main reason for never upgrading OS from Tiger is that all our applications work, and I'm the scaredy type who will never forget the horrific nightmare of getting off OS9 and onto OSX a couple of years ago. This is an office, not leisure use.

Applications in daily use: AppleWorks believe it or not, in daily use. Pages and Numbers. DeltaGraph. FileMaker Pro. Some MS like Excel and Word but only when in extremis because people have sent us things in those applications and require translation back to them, in reply. All the others are regulars like Firefox, Mail, iPhoto. I use IE occasionally for one website which does not work on Firefox.

So here's the crazy question: when* I source two more Macs as replacements, they'll come with Leopard or higher.

Go through another potential nightmare of upgrading entire office to higher than 10.4, or just go ahead and instal 10.4 on them when I get around to sourcing the replacement Macs? I'm looking at Amazon for good deals - not brand new ones.

*there's no rush but we have the cash atm, and the (1) small screen and (2) noise from the windtunnel are beginning to bug me.

Hope you can make sense of all that. Thanks.

Just remember that Macs that shipped with Leopard or higher installed cannot be downgraded to Tiger.

If you want to run Tiger on your "new" Macs you'll have to buy machines that shipped with Tiger or lower.

Operator Headgap sells refurbished G4's, & G5's

Great Gods, artie, I didn't know that!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you!!

er, why are the undowngradeable? What's the rationale?

Only in very rare and very limited circumstances will any Mac boot from an OS version earlier than the version it shipped with. This is enforced by firmware in the logic board and code in the operating system.

This has been said before, but Apple support for hardware and software is a seven year sliding window. As new technologies such as Thunderbolt, gestures, and iCloud enter on the leading edge, support for older technologies like Rosetta, and ATA drop off the back. This helps to keep Apple hardware and software lean and clean. They aren't dragging the dross of previous generations along ad infinitum. This contributes to Apple's ability to turn a new OS release around in 18 months as opposed to Microsofts five years. Along with other technologies it also means Apple is able to sell OS X 10.7 (Lion) for $29.

Staying with Tiger is, of course, your choice but you need to consider that there will progressively be less and less support for the applications (Tiger is already obsolete and there are no more security updates) you are using and when you eventually make the leap to newer hardware and a newer OS the jump will be substantially greater and inevitably more traumatic. Personally I made the choice long ago to intentionally keep all my software including the OS current. With very few exceptions, upgrades have been non-events for me personally because of that. On the other hand most major upgrades result in a flood of cry for help from my Apple using friends who have allowed their OS and/or software fall behind the times. Far too often these lapses have resulted in some degree of data loss. You mentioned you are still using Appleworks, which in its time was a good office suite but Apple held wake for AW several years ago and I know a LOT of people who are only now realizing they have a lot of valuable data in AW files and either no way to convert the data or a long and painful process will be required to convert the data to a modern format. That is exacerbated by their realization their old copy of AW is not going to run in Lion or in a couple of cases I know of, their old copy of AW has become corrupted and is close to, or may be, irreplaceable. Think about it.

You're right, Joe, and I know you're right. Thank you very much for the long helpful reply. This thread has already saved me a lot of grief - but there's more to come, I can see.

Since I'm it here, have to do it all myself and feel really alone sometimes (no big IT support department, just internet forums like this one), it takes me a long time to do all the research and preparation for major changes - and costs me in stress/responsibility on shoulders, too.

So should I take the office from 10.4 to 10.5 or 10.6? The dominant part of the decision is not keeping up with current OSs, but keeping the office running.

I'm sorry to ask what may be silly questions to you, but what are the major differences to the user, between Tiger and Leopard or Snow Leopard? My boss is what you might call 'new learning-averse' but will learn when he has to, of course.

Re Appleworks, I now maintain the customer database on both AW and Filemaker, but honestly find AW far more intuitive, easier, quicker, less "stubborn" in doing simple things (like copying a database record from one DB to another: in AW you just control-C control-V; in Filemaker you have to make sure the databases are both displayed in exactly the same way (list, labels, data entry for instance) and then Export the record/s, then switch to target DB and Import them. What a lot of error-prone and time-wasting fuss.)

For the same reason - ease of use - I am also still using AW to generate all our invoices. I can bang out 20 invididual invoices in as long as 5 minutes. I had a go at formatting Filemaker to generate identical invoices but gave up trying to re-invent the wheel. I suppose I should put in another hundred hours at the Filemaker treadmill to make it do something which AW already does superbly, but it makes my heart sink, to be honest.

I can't pretend to tell you all of the differences but for me, the major improvement over Tiger is Time Machine. True, you can back up manually if you like, but TM has numerous advantages. In addition, 10.5 and 10.6 seem to be more stable. Not that 10.4 had problems, but I find hardly any directory errors popping up in 10.6 and I got some (not many, but some) in 10.4 when I ran Disk Warrior.

Here we go.......both the Macs-to-be-replaced, it turns out, are PowerPCs, not Intels.

So they'd both have to be replaced anyway, to run Snow Leopard.

I'm glad that's already been identified!

I'm now working my way through Apple and 3rd party websites to see what software will and will not be ok after the what-looks-inevitable OS upgrade.

Apple themselves say that iWorks08 will be fine.
DeltaGraph themselves say ditto.
Am now checking Filemaker.

It's like a ship (I've just told my boss). If one part does not work, the whole ship will not float.

I've also learned that grey instal disks go with that particular machine; black instal disks (retail) are not machine-specific. Is that right?

That's right.

I presume you are referring to Microsoft Office? If so your Microsoft Office license is limited to running on only one computer at a time. If they are on the same network you will not be able to launch two copies of the same Office installation. So you would need to take a copy of Office from one of the machines you are replacing.

Apple products are licensed for installation and use on a single Macintosh computer but but they have not been draconian in enforcing their license agreements — yet. Apple software has previously been available in a "family pack" that was/is legal for installation on five computers in the same household Unfortunately in your case the "family pack" license specifically excludes business and dormitory environments. However all this is changing with the advent of the App Store beginning in OS X 10.6.6(?).

Apple and third party applications purchased through the Apple App Store (not to be confused with the very similar iTunes App Store for iDevices such as the iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch) license permits the apps to be installed on up to five authorized devices for no additional charge. However I do not know offhand what the limitations, if any, are on authorized devices. The App Store alone might be a good reason for you to upgrade to Snow Leopard or Lion. While it only works on the latest versions of Snowy and will be the means of distributing Lion, the App Store will at least semi-uatomatically keep the OS and all applications purchased through the App Store up to date virtually painlessly and could save you a lot of trouble.

that's a plus and a minus with macs.. they can remain useful for a very long time, but that applies less pressure on users to periodically upgrade, businesses in particular.

do not continue to put it off by buying used machines. It's a very well-proven rule that the longer you wait, the more painful the inevitable upgrade will be. I have horror stories I can tell if you need to hear them. They're long, ugly, and very expensive. If you have a PHB that doesn't want to pry open the checkbook, do a cost-analysis that takes into account lost productivity due to using older hardware and software, downtime that will result when a massive upgrade is finally required, retraining on new software that has to be steeply upgraded, lost resale value of replaced equipment, lost productivity due to difficulty of accessing older documents due to large software version gaps, all in addition to the huge hardware/software pill they will have to swallow all at once.

Bottom line it like this: you can spend $2,500 a year on periodic upgrades. Or you can hold off to save money, and instead spend $20,000 in combined expenses (plus and 1-2 months of chaos and low productivity) every six years. (Or something like that) Even the numerically-challenged can work that out in their head.

Thank you for the long note Joe, but no, I was referring to the office in which we work (as in opening post). I only use MS stuff if unavoidable etc.

Thanks again.

Thanks for your reply, Virtual, and I know exactly what you mean.

More research today reveals that AW will run in Snow Leopard, I found that out from here:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2116594?start=15&tstart=0

then here:

http://www.wilmut.webspace.virginmedia.com/notes/aw/page1.html

which tells me that it can't run directly on Intel Macs, and requires Rosetta (in effect a PPC emulator built into OSX) and further that in 10.6 (Snow Leopard), Rosetta is not included by default but there is an option in the installer for the user to include it or it could be automatically downloaded by the system if needed at a later time.

So therefore I could source two new (or nearly-new) Macs for our office (where we work) already running Snow Leopard, and gain some time on converting my workhorse AW functions like invoicing to some other, worse IMO, application.

I've also seen and quickly read down a thread here on the demise of Rosetta, and it won't run under Lion. OK, but nevertheless it seems to me that I do have some time in hand now (months) to (A) buy new kit; and (B) put in all the hours required by me to re-invent the wheel and transfer invoicing to different s/w.

I don't know if this applies to you, but a friend got a new computer (several months ago) with Snow Leopard pre-installed. I migrated everything from her old computer (running Tiger), including AppleWorks. AW itself ran OK but as soon as she updated the printer drivers for her HP printer, she couldn't print from AW. Eventually, she bought Pages and now uses that app.

sadly, it comes down to Apple never providing an option for the wonderful, easy database that is in Appleworks.

Spreadsheets are powerful but really can't meet the needs of a good database program.

I have Appleworks with Snow Leopard but my printer is a Canon Pixma IP5000. I don't have any printing issues.

However I wonder (and those more knowledgeable than I can jump in) if it has to do with the printer or whether it's the way I got to Snow Leopard. Your friend went straight from Tiger to Snow Leopard whereas I went through all the OS iterations, bringing Appleworks along with me.

If that is the case, it is logical that Bensheim should think about starting with an earlier OSX move from OS9 and go through a couple of bounces? The bounces should be easy enough, as they're just upgrades, and he will have done his wheel re-invention in the initial move.

Just a thought.

ryck

I found that going from 10.4 to 10.5 was easy and painless. I had no difficulty at all; all my apps ran smoothly without complaint, and the OS install was absolutely effortless. I think that upgrading 10.4 to 10.5 is a pain-free and hassle-fee and brings significant improvements to the table.

On the other hand, upgrading my machines from 10.5 to 10.6 wasn't quite as painless. It did give me back quite a bit of disk space--in a radical departure from how operating systems normally go, OS 10.6 is smaller and lighter than 10.5. But I've had weird, intermittent problems with Photoshop (I use Adobe Creative Suite 2, and it's not really fully compatible with 10.6), I found a small number of obscure apps that didn't run, and there were some other minor issues and rough spots along the road. It was worth the upgrade to me, but it wasn't painless.

10.7 is going to create a lot of pain for a lot of people, I think. The fact that 10.7 will drop support for PowerPC applications is significant. There's a lot of PowerPC code lurking in quite a few systems; for example, the Canon printer/scanner I have has PowerPC scanner software, even though it's relatively new.

If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely move up to 10.5, though I might think twice about 10.6 and wouldn't be planning to go to 10.7 just yet.

Can I take it (as you said migrated from Tiger) that Tiger and Snow Leopard machines can see each other on the network, i.e., are file-transferrable?

I hope so, otherwise it makes another problem.........

Plan is to buy 2 new (have decided on new, now) Macs which will come with SL pre-installed. Unpack one and put it on network. Transfer all working files from a to-be-discontinued Tiger, to the new SL Mac. (Also instal 3rd party software.)

If you say there's no problem, yes, they will be able to see each other and share files; then that will just leave upgrading the 2 Tiger macs which are not going to be replaced. Will the instal/system disks which come with the NEW machines, instal SL on them, or do I have to ALSO buy SL black/retail discs?

Many thanks for all the help so far, which is excellent.

Hi Ryck, I'm afraid I don't understand this paragraph.

Hi Tacit, the new machines will come with 10.6.

> Plan is to buy 2 new (have decided on new, now) Macs which will come with SL pre-installed.

Bear in mind that it's crunch-time... With the imminent release of Lion, the supply of new Macs with Snow Leopard pre-installed will probably not last long, particularly in view of the fact that major users of PPC apps may decide to buy new now to avoid buying, i.e. being stuck with, Lion later.

> Will the instal/system disks which come with the NEW machines, instal SL on them, or do I have to ALSO buy SL black/retail discs?

The discs that come with any Mac install at least the latest operating system (*) (**) plus bundled software; there is no need to buy black discs other than to upgrade your current version of OS X.

(*) The have been instances, and we may see another of them soon, in which Macs with one version of OS X pre-installed that were sold immediately after the release of a new version of OS X came with upgrade, not install discs. (Edit 2: Hmmm... I wonder if upgrades, if made available, will be available other than through the Mac App Store? Same issue with dial-up and bandwidth caps, though, I guess.)

Edit: (**) The latest version of OS X as of the date of manufacture, that is.

Bensheim,

Are the two machines currently running Tiger PowerPCs?

If so, then they do not support Snow Leopard which can only be installed on a Mac with an Intel processor.

The discs which ship with a new Mac are machine specific. It is unlikely that they will boot and install an operating system and bundled apps on other machines. There is also the Software License Agreement.

I have no experience with network file sharing between Tiger and Snow Leopard and cannot answer that question.

I did this via Firewire.

Ah, perhaps that's because it turns out to be goofy as hell.

I was thinking that you could ease through Panther, Leopard, et cetera and take Appleworks with you as you go through the OS upgrades. I was recalling that I bought Panther in 2006, Leopard in 2008 and Snow in 2009 - and thinking that these might still be available (i.e. inside a seven year window).

I've now looked at the Apple site and they don't have any of the older systems so that thought is out. I guess the more knowledgeable folks were too polite to reply to my post with: "ryck, have you been drinking?"

If anyone's looking for me, I'll be in the corner wearing the pointy hat.

ryck

Hi Dianne,

Yes, see msg 16490 further up.


Re disks, Artie says "The discs that come with any Mac install at least the latest operating system (*) (**) plus bundled software; there is no need to buy black discs other than to upgrade your current version of OS X."

Confused now.

Ryck brings up another important issue: once Apple officially introduces a new version of Mac OS X, it tends to stop selling the previous version immediately or pretty soon after. So if you're interested in Snow Leopard, get the necessary install disks NOW, don't wait.

That said, previous OS versions tend to be available from 3rd parties, frequently used and at premium prices. It's not yet clear how this practice will change with Lion, which will not come with install disks, but with a special (re)install partition on the hard disk. While it's possible to burn an install disk from this partition, it's not yet clear if Apple will make them available separately, in which case (illegal) 3rd party copies will be the only game in town.

By the way, Macs can see other Macs on the same network regardless of OS version running. In case there is an issue, there's always the target disk mode Jon alluded to.

I'll thank dianne here for her post that highlights the fact that my answer to your disc question was not the answer to the question you asked and was, therefore, incorrect.

She is correct in saying both that the discs that will come with your new Macs will not be able to install Snow Leopard on your old Macs that you would like to upgrade and that unless those Macs are Intel Macs, which is not clear from your posts, they cannot run Snow Leopard under any circumstances.

Thank you for the clarification Artie, and I apologise for not having made myself clear.

There are 4 Macs in this office: 2 are Intel and 2 are not.

The 2 which are not, are going to be replaced with brand new Macs, which will be Intel. Thenceforeward, all 4 will be Intel.

It seems that in addition to buying 2 new Macs, I must now also purchase a 10.6 license (black discs) to upgrade the OS on the two existant Intel Macs to bring them all up to the same OS.

With a £2,000 spend on hardware, another £36 spend on an additional 10.6 license is acceptable.

Browsing around Amazon and Apple Store earlier, there are plenty of new iMacs to be had, running 10.6, and plenty of SL licenses too, within that cost.

Many thanks for answering and re-clarifying.

Be careful with anything OS X purchased from eBay or other such sources. Too often they are unwittingly or perhaps wittingly selling the machine specific grey disks and not the retail upgrade disks. Your £36 cost of two Snow Leopard licenses is about 25% of what those same two licenses would cost in a U. S. Apple Store. I would expect two legitimate licenses to cost more on the order of £150. On the other hand waiting until the end of this month and you could upgrade two Intel machines to OS X 10.7 (Lion) for the original £36 you quoted.

Joe,

Amazon.co.uk
Snow Leopard Family pack, new, ~£43, here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing...p;condition=new

(Found here)

You may not use a Family Pack in your office; you must purchase two Single Use licenses.

Edit: They're still selling for $29 in the Apple US Store.

Ok Artie, got that, thanks for the reply.

I will find out when I plug it in, but I'd like some idea aforehand:

When I buy the 2 new Snow Leopard Intel Macs, and plug the first one into our router, will it be able to see the disk contents of the Tiger Macs on the same network? I hope the answer is yes, because then transferring user files and s/w will be easy. If the answer is no, then I'll have to think of a way (burn to DVD, probably) to get all the user files off before disconnecting the to-be-replaced Tiger windtunnel, then reinstal s/w in usual way.

I explain too much, I sometimes think.
Re-stated question.
Can OS SL and OS Tiger Macs co-exist on same network wrt seeing disk contents?

Many thanks you very helpful people.....

Apple is somewhat sponsoring Bento , makers of FileMaker

I've never used it nor filemaker before, but from what I can tell those are the best consumer-grade DB solutions for the mac

I have several database products I use on the Mac.

• Filemaker Pro -- Filemaker used to be owned by Apple but was spun off several years ago. Filemaker is about as powerful a relational database as you can find with exceptionally powerful and relatively easy to use report generation. It can even generate HTML reports. It is available as a stand alone client -- but that client can also act as portal to a Filemaker server that can handle a very large number of sumultaneous queries. There are also a large number of third party solutions for Filemaker so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. It is not cheap.
• Bento -- by Filemaker is an easy to use single user database product with access to most if not all the standard Apple databases such as AddressBook, iCal, iPhoto, etc. It is however strictly single user as it is dependent on the Apple databases and files on the host machine.
• Yojimbo -- by Bare Bones Software, is another single user database. It is very simple and easy to use with access capabilities much like those in Spotlight. There is no report generator and like Bento is strictly single user.
• MySQL -- is a very powerful open source multiuser database server that runs on the Mac. NeoOffice and OpenOffice database modules can access the common MySQL database seerver. It does call for good knowledge of database design to create a successful operation. IMHO this one is free it is definitely not for the faint of heart or amateurs for that matter.

Yes, Snow Leopard and Tiger machines should have no problems file sharing with each other.

Thank you once again Tacit, that's good to hear.

This is a Very Good forum. It always yields intelligent and knowledgeable responses.

IMO.

thanks, Virtual and Joe.

I'm about to order the two brand new intel iMacs (from a well known UK retailer which includes 2-year warranty) and the software licenses hereinbefore mentioned. I've contacted a 3rd party s/w site to make sure my version of their s/w will run under Snow Leopard. So far so good.

I have another question. I'm sorry if this seems 'stupid' but the only way to get the answer is to ask the question.

The other two intel Macs in this office, currently running Tiger, which I'm going to upgrade to SL with the new licences, do I just go ahead and instal SL on them, or do I have to get all the user files (all our precious work data) off them first?

I didn't have to ask this question when upgrading from OS8 to 9 all those years ago IIRC, so presumably all the OSX upgrades will happen as seamlessly in this respect? i.e., upgrade the OS and just carry on working? No need to get data off and back on again?

I hope that makes sense. Thank you in advance. Hope someone replies fairly soon.

The only thing I'll say is that regardless of which route you ultimately decide to take to get from Tiger to Snow Leopard, be certain that everything you can't afford to lose is fully backed up before you begin the process!

You're right with that assumption: the OS upgrade can be performed without touching your home folder and its data. That said, and as emphasized by Artie, it's always a good idea to have those data backed up so that you won't lose anything if the smelly stuff hits the fan, however unlikely that may be.

Excellent, thanks Artie and Alt

I've been watching You-tube clips of Tiger > Snow Leopard installations.

Some of them are terrible. There are several where the person doing the demonstration is also trying to hold a camcorder in his/her other hand, resulting in the picture moving about all over the place. Another one has a man who keeps saying "OK Guys......" and "Here we GO!" and another one, the Mac being filmed has an unbelievable desk top image of some artiste, image copied over and over to fit his desk top, so you canNOT see what the demonstrator is doing, clicking on, pointing at.

OTOH I've now found out that I won't need a new printer driver: apple software update will sort that out for me, if necessary. Good! The manufacturer's website was impenetrably obtuse on this subject.

Speaking about printer drivers, I would recommend excellent free Gutenprint from Sourceforge

Not only is it free, it's included in OS X 10.6.

I've ordered the two new iMacs, delivery Thursday.

Taking a very close look at the spec, I see they'll come with Apple wireless keyboards, which are nearly half the width having no numeric pad. Navigation keys are elsewhere on the tiny cramped keyboard.

We won't be using them. I can only think that whoever designed this, does not have to input numbers on spreadsheets.

Talking of keyboards, yesterday I took it upon myself to clean the two filthy keyboards on my boss's desk. At first I used a spray disinfectant, which the old black buckling-spring keyboard just sneered at. Next I tried glass cleaning spray, which the grimy keyboard also shrugged aside. Eventually I reached for the Mister Muscle Removes Grease spray, clean cloth and 50-odd cotton buds. I finished it off with a blast from a hair dryer and an hour later had done an excellent job; the keyboard looks 10 years younger.

However, he later reported a problem. It types spaces all by itself. It seems that I killed it with my hygienic ferocity. Good job we have spare keyboards stashed about the place.

Apple's default option is the standard (small) wireless keyboard. An alternative would have been the (wired) extended keyboard. Somehow, the wireless version of that extended keyboard is no longer available from Apple, but if you've got one lying around it'll probably work.

Cleaning keyboards is a good idea, but using spray cleaners may cause the liquid to seep in between the keyboard membrane assembly and short key contacts. They most likely will return to normal operation after a while, but you may have to disassemble the keyboard and dry the membrane assembly to speed things up and avoid corrosion. (There are any number of instruction sites for this to be found online, like here and here.)

I am not sure about "included". If it were so, why does the KB article vaguely states that if the PPD file (which logically would be part of OS) cannot be found, one can use the Gutenprint PPD file? And then they give the link to the developer site.
I recall that when I switched to SL, my HP LaserJet would hesitate on pdf files during printing from Reader or Acrobat. To the point that I installed Gutenprint and all is still smooth and fast into Lion.
Apart from the drivers, there is also PrintTherapy that can remedy a lot of (minor) printing problems.

You have your choice of that keyboard or the wired keyboard with the numeric keypad. They're both the same cost.

Apple's theory is that you'll want the Magic Trackpad, which takes as much room as the keypad, and there's not room in front of your screen for both a wide keyboard and a trackpad.

I got the wide keyboard with numeric keypad (no extra charge) plus the trackpad plus the mouse ($69 extra to get both), and they all live comfortably in front of a 27" screen. Apparently a lot of people do this, because it came in a box with compartments for all three, and both the trackpad and mouse came pre-paired with the iMac.

I got trackpad + mouse, because I prefer the mouse but Lion prefers the trackpad, and I wanted the flexibility to play both ways. I didn't want to knock the trackpad until I'd tried it.

From Gutenprint Printer Drivers for Mac OS X v10.6:


Maybe you opted not to install them as part of your original Snow Leopard upgrade?

Not from John Lewis dot com, it comes with a little wireless keyboard, no option. Extended wired costs another £40 or so.

No matter, I'll be using the extended-wired k/bs which are already in use, on the Macs about to be taken out of production.

Having said that however, next post........

Dear Alt,

I don't want wireless keyboards!, my wireless mouse already EATS batteries, and I can't be doing with replacing AA batteries on a weekly basis on wireless keyboards when it is not in any way necessary. What's wrong with USB wired? iMacs come with 4 USB ports - that's what they're for, I reckon.

Thanks for your links on taking apart and cleaning keyboards, I did look at them. However it was a buckling spring keyboard which I ruined by cleaning it, not a membrane one. In any case, I can't help feeling that life is simply too short for all that fiddling with tiny screws..........

To my astonishment, utter astonishment, I now see that Cherry are doing buckling spring extended Mac keyboards on Amazon for between only £13.35 (Spill Resistant) and £61.27 (different model); and that Matias Tactile Pro for Mac can be had either from them or Amazon for £118.80.

I had just got through telling my boss that they don't make buckling spring keyboards any more, then a minute's search revealed all those purchasing opportunities. I'm amazed.

But I'm hoping he'll give up his mechanical keyboard and join the slim stainless steel (extended, wired) Apple keyboards like the rest of us. Give it time.........

Rechargeables FTW. I've been using rechareable AA, C, D, and 9v since what... 1987 I think?

Never saw that option. But thanks for clarification!

Likewise here; the 4 AA batteries in my extended wireless Apple keyboard last for months, not weeks.

Very few intels shipped with 10.4, they first started appearing with 10.4.7. Original macbooks, original intel imacs, and some of the core solo minis.