I'm thinking every 5 years replace spinning hard drives even if seem to still be working ok.

But one in bank, security deposit, not spinning, justs comes into house every 4 months to get backup up.

Would one replace this is too every 5 years, or maybe that one you'd keep 10 years? Thanks.

Thre are a lot of factors impacting the useful lifespan of a hard drive and calendar age or time in use is relatively low on that list. Rather than replace any drive solely because of its calendar age, I would run diagnostics on the drive every time you bring it into the house for backup and keep it as long as it passes diagnostics. The same is true of the drives you use every day. A drive can easily outlast the technology before failing or it could fail within minutes of being powered up the first time. The failure rate is a standard distribution and the published MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) is just that and no more. DriveDX, Drive Scope, and TechTool Pro all perform a thorough analysis of the S.M.A.R.T. values of hard drives and NVME statistics on SSDs, even those connected via technologies like USB that theoretically do not support S.M.A.R.T., to provide adequate warning of impending drive failure to keep your data safe. Within a few days of installing DriveDX on it flagged one of my HDs (a 3-year-old industrial grade Seagate) as an impending failure. It never actually failed but I had plenty of time to find and install a replacement drive in the same enclosure. FWIW, I have DriveDX set to routinely check the S.M.A.R.T. or NVME values on each of my drives every 4 hours and report immediately if the health of a drive falls below my preset comfort level. (I initially set it to send me a summary report every 48 hours, but the report was boring and I don't need any more email, so I canceled that.)

Thanks Joe, I don't have tech tool, or what other one famous, checked hard drives? Used to have for years.. oh Disc Warrior.

I only have Apples First aid in DU.

I was not being diligent ever in checking, but last week, after this weird constant ejecting of drives and crashing the hub and keyboard bluetooth. I checked.

My time machine first aid, never succeeded. Did not fail, but did not succeed, just kept going on and on. The other drive did fail. Got red alert failed. (those all 5 tB external Seagates - 6 years old)

Would you keep either of those -- one passed first aid, other did not pass but did not file kept churing away, oh and the one that failed or one not finish, could erase and then pass...? Both 6 years old. Keep?

Anyway sales rep BH photo, (and also one Apple senior tech few months ago) said to replace all spinning drives every 5-6 years.

I stick by my previous recommendation, but if you are unwilling to invest $20 in DriveDX to possibly save the cost of new drives as well monitor to detect potential failures. Given your recent history, I would have replaced those drives long ago and I would still want to be running DriveDX or similar.

Ok Joe thanks, will be getting that Drive DX.

I guess run it every couple months is good schedule? (better than doing nothing as been done last 5 years) For some reason I think I read years ago, you don't need to check drives unless there is a reason to... Remember disc warrior/ Tech Tool pro, always on hand one or or both, that was 10 years ago--also the defragmenting issue was solved I think... But I thought last 5 years were maintenance free. Why would have you bailed on the drives I've had 6 years years ago, if they been fine up to now?

And good news this Drive DX is only $20, those other aforementioned products I think veered toward $100 at the time.

I have DriveDX set to run every four hours. It does not scan the drives per se, it simply reads the S.M.A.R.T. or NVME data stored in registers on the drive and analyzes the results. Properly analyzed the S.M.A.R.T. and NVME trends are the most reliable predictor of impending drive failure and those values include and improve on the same information that you would look for in a full scan of the drive that could take hours on a big drive. DriveDX's entire process takes a few seconds at most and has no discernable impact on system performance. You can set the checking interval and specify the actions to take if there is problem detected. I forget it is running until it warns me of an impending failure. Just install it, set your preferences, and forget it until a warning arises.

Defragmentation still can improve the performance of an HD formatted HFS+, but APFS is intentionally fragmented and arguably have a deleterious effect on the lifespan of SSDs. Add to that for years macOS has quietly been doing its own optimization in the background. That leaves volume repair and not only has Disk Utility improved on its ability to do volume repairs they have become so infrequent that many no longer bother to keep the various repair facilities up-to-date and unless they are up-to-date they can actually do more harm than good.


They are looking at $100 in their rear-view mirror today.

Joe thanks, will do your strategy:

1-- Why say you would have gotten rid of my drives long time ago? ONes getting rid of now: Seagate 5 tBs?
2- I DX spot problem then you repair or even erase, then ok! .. but at what point to you know then to replace the drive? ... if keep repairing and then ok/ usable

In the specific set of circumstances that you did nit have the tools to adequately measure the relative health of the drive and you had encountered several problems some inexplicable, I would have quickly replaced the drive irregardless of its age. Given you have, or are getting, DriveDX or similar and the drive passes the test there would be no substantive r3ason to replace it.


If the S.M.A.R.T. Values and their trend indicate the probability of failure then replace it, even if it is only hours old. If the volume structure is frequently getting damaged and needs repair, you need to trouble-shoot that as an issue as it may be separate from the drive or enclosure. I have drives that have run years without needing any volume or file repairs.

JOe thanks, great ok, so for 1-2 old Seagate I have, that test ok... or for new drives just got:

If passes a test... (right now just using test of DUs first aid.) ie if green check passed.. and .. what test that passes with new software? DX there a definitive, yes passed.

If a couple of my older drives pass test..... then you would keep them even in 5 , years old, 10 years old 12 years old? There is no random cut off date even if spinning drive?

One apple rep and BH rep said with spinning drive cause spinning and so fragile to wear they would replace every 5-6 years regardless, I think many subscribe to that.

They would not say that necessarily with SSD, or even CF flash card I use for photography (some of those flash cards I've been using for 15 years plus).. I don't even test them ever, just if images coming up fine camera assuming fine... (they say that with Spinning disc drives)

Disk Utility only looks at a single composite S.M.A.R.T. value and is a good indicator that the drive has already failed. DriveDX looks at all the various S.M.A.R.T. values and attempts to predict drive failure before it actually happens. the user can specify how close to failing the drive has to be before it throws up a warning notification.


I have some drives that are still functional and over 10 years old, but I never use them because they are too small and too slow by today's standards to be useful in my current system. Every once in a while I dig through the stack and discard one or two to recover some space in my junk drawer. Given the rate of advancement in computer technology a five-year-old drive is antiquated and as far as Apple is concerned a seven-year-old drive is, by corporate policy, obsolete. Your five-year-old drive is using ten-year-old technology at best, but that technology level is cheap, reliable, and fast enough to perform more than adequately as a Time Machine drive. The Seagates you are proposing as replacements are using [b[the exact same obsolete technology[/b]. If there is no indication of impending or actual failure, why spend the money replacing your old drives with the same antique technology if the old ones are still good and show no signs of impending failure?

As far as the Apple and BH rep's opinion, just remember they are in the business of selling new drives and that impacts their opinion.


They or I would not say that of CF flash cards, SD cards, or thumb drives. You may still be using the flashcards after 15 years without a problem but all magnetic media, such as floppy disks, magnetic tape, HDs, CF Flashcards, and SD cards, are ill-suited to long-term data storage because the magnetic "image" degrades with time, unless periodically refreshed/rewritten. Thumb drives and SSDs both use non-magnetic solid-state media but thumb drives are much slower and are more subject to data loss. Arguably the best archival data storage currently available is LTO-8 magnetic tape ($5379.00 for 4TB capacity), but as far as I know, it is not compatible with Time Machine.

My crystal ball is notoriously cloudy, but assuming drive prices can be reduced by at least an order of magnitude LTO devices with LTFS could be the Time Machine storage media of the future.

Thanks Joe, the new Lacie d2, just got are not old technology right as C, usb made for the new imacs...? 7400 rpm vs 5400... Bit faster..

Never use CF cards for storage, just do shoot and then reformat.

Anyway, all this info helps with those spinning drives, thanks.

Other than the type C connector the drives themselves are still antique technology if not obsolete. That does not make it unsuitable for service as a Time Machine drive, in fact,it is highly suitable for the purpose. Yes 7500 rpm will be faster but you are unlikely to notice the difference in day-to-day use.

I don't get how these are anique Jos.. the d2 are on C (not A which I have), and fater speed 7400, most are 5400.... I agree, would I notice. But .... oh you are comparing to SSD?

I guess one final question Joe: maybe .. right BH, apple bias... the 2016 Seagates, have 4 one 8tB for TM... that one did not fail, but did not succeed, in DU -- still working though.... one 5TB failed, got red alert, can read it but could not save.
Other 5 TB home was for back up fine... One bank not tested, (rarely used) I would assume fine.

If these new d2 are not huge speed bump.. would you just erase the two that had issues, and if test ok with Drive Dx, keep using..? I could return all 3 of new d2 and get $600 back.....?

If I read joemikeb's comments correctly, spinning metal platter-based hard drives (he calls them "spinning rust") are obsolete relative to SSD's just like a flip phone is obsolete relative to an iPhone (or Galaxy, etc.). The flip phone can make calls, its primary function, but even if it has a color screen, it is not the current "best" technology in the long run. A spinning hard drive, even with a Type C connector, will back up your data, its primary function, but it is not the "best" technology in the long run.

Lots of people still use technology that is not the "best", and there is nothing wrong with that. In the end, it just has to work for them and you.

Thanks Ira, well, I'm using 5-8 TB externals, so SSD is still prohibitive.. So k ind of like electric cars, solar, wind... better but still too pricy.

Check the format on the drive that you can read but not write. If it is formatted NTFS all you have to do is reformat the drive to macOS Extended, APFS, or MSDOS and it will be writeable. Also, check the documentation on the drive, some enclosures have a mechanical switch that disables writing to the drive. Finally perform a Get Info on the drive and see what privileges are set. You may have to reset the privileges.

The new drives are not likely to be any speed bump because the limiting factor is the USB 3.0 protocol and the USB ports on your current Mac are USB 3.0. The best any USB 3.0 device can achieve is 5 Gbps. If DriveDX gives the old drives a clean bill of health there is no reason not to reformat and keep using them, especially if you are staying at the same level of technology. Aging affects several S.M.A.R.T. values and is likely to provide early warning -- if you are watching and know what to watch. DriveDX watches continuously and knows what to watch. That said any drive, regardless of age, is subject to catastrophic failure with little or no warning, but the odds are against it.

Thanks JOe,

1- the new Lacies, are C, I've read these get to 20gb not 5.. when I get the new M1 27"... that where it's heading. Does change your opinion knowing, I'll get the new 27"

2- Drive DX... there is a setting or some alert tells you drive is in trouble. Where do you set that? (I think I turned it off) or just set your own monthly calandar event to check?

3- Drive DX, looks great, but still cannot use it for externals. Got some other software which think installed ok, but still not working for externals. Sent email to them. Seems externals are issue for them to deal with.

Ok then maybe if erase, and then get good bill health -- your opinon is (kind of mind until talked out of it), even spinning drives can go 10 years fine -- but does that final question #1 change anything being I'll have new computer... C usb at some point shortly (d2) geared for that. ie may say.. well, if getting new computer soon.. those d2 would be much better, or maybe not, that older Seagates.. if working ok.

PS Joe, ok got external drives working drive DX, time machine seem ok...
Question in DU first aid, top level, Seagate, quick pass, but then I do first aid test level below where I named it time machine goes on and on. Should one even do first aid on that lower level (where its indented and you name the drive)?

The connector type (A, B, C) is related to the USB protocol but a Type C connector can be used with USB 3.0 (5 Gbps), 3.1 (5 0r 10 Gbps), 3.1 Gen 2 (10 Gbps), 3.2 (20 Gbps), 4 (40 Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 (40 Gbps), or Thunderbolt 4 (40 Gbps). Speed is determined by the USB protocol used by the slowest device (port, connector, cable) in the chain. So if your LaCie drive, your computer, and the connecting cable would all have to be USB 3.2 to achieve 20 Mbps throughput. Your current computer is wired for USB 3.0 so that is the limiting factor. The USB ports on the current generation of M1 and M2 Macs are either USB 3.0 or 3.1 Gen 2 so depending on which port you choose you could have a maximum speed of either 5 Gbps or 10 Gbps. However if you connected a USB device to one of the Thunderbolt 4 ports and you had a USB 4 drive Your could get 20, 20 or even 40 Mbps throughput depending on connecting cable and/or the attached device.

1. Launch DriveDX
2. On the menu bar click on The DriveDX icon
3. In the Drop down window click on prefences
4. In Preferences > General check the box labeled Launch at login and Specify the testing interval
5. In Preferences > Advanced when to report and how to report
6. Click anywhere outside of the DriveDX window to close it
7. Forget DriveDX is running until you get an email warning you of a drive with questionable health.

It works just fine on all my external drives whether connected via Thunderbolt, USB, or firewire. Only one of these drives is internal


As far as I am concerned the computer and the drives are separate entities and USB 3.0 is fast enough for Time Machine drives. I am using a USB 3.0 drive on my M1 Max Studio and my only objection is I wish the fan were quieter. (Most of my other drives HDs and SSDs get along just fine with conduction cooling but this particular enclosure also houses an optical (CD/DVD) drive that generates a lot of heat.)

Externals now working with Drive X.

The old Main HD 5TB toast/ bad. Now not tested erasing and retesting, but if bad siganls now... you'd just trash right?.. could be perfect after a erase?.
The old TM is good with couple minor warning, close perfect.. not perfect.
The old backup which now became the main 5TB perfect.
ONe in bank not sure, guessing fine. Yeah, so maybe I could return 2 of three new Lacies., lets see.

Joe: I would think when get new 27" M1, all those things were be perfect to get the 20 Gps, combined with 7400 rpm over 5400 is t;hat something significant or..? ie getting closer to a real much better external drive?

BTW, Disk Daisy, just trying for a bit.. Dont' see ithe interface any better than Macs, improved and simple About: Disc Storage. You can click tediously on blocks.. no interest. Am I missing something with these stand alone apps over Maps greatly improved About/ Disc Storage?

PS Joe, all this madness turns out just one HD failing, the main data external had 6 years 5TB. That brought down with it: TM external and even bluetooth keyboard, and Hub and Apple tech (sharing screenI, incorrectly misdiagnosed everything to be with bad computer or Mad HD.
apple senior tech, even was recommending a full replacement of OS.
And then BH "computer" specialist, selling all new Hardrives.... which could even get on board when arrive Thursday, as they don't include (and he was not knownedagle enough and knew I still had older 27" as dont sell a newer one yet --- to mentioned don't come with converters)..

All 3 converters are coming now from Amazon on Rush and even Seagate, after hour and hours lost with bad Seagate techs, etc. (Maybe keep one of D2)... And might return the 2 SSD Sandisk, for laptop which are fine, but old one testing fine with DriveDx hence you were right about motivations. ( though to be fair, the apple tech from months ago saying to replace drived every 5 years just misguided, apple does not sell drives, right?)

But Drive DX is a marvelous interface.. so clean and t o the point, yes, why not replace as needed, not random time, as the deal/ space get better on these every year. Kudos.

If DriveDX says the drive is failing or has failed you could erase it 1,000 times and it would still be failing or failed. Don't confuse the volume structure with the mechanical health of the drive. Volume structure is software, DriveDX is testing the hardware.


IF that is DriveDX test results, strat looking for a good buy on replacements.


You are golden.


The limiting factor will always be the lowest USB protocol level (USB 3.0, 3.1, etc. of any device, cable, or connector in the chain. Unless the port on your drive, the connecting cable, and the port on your computer are ALL USB 3.2 or higher you cannot achieve 20 Mbps throughput. I for one have never seen either a cable or an adaptor rated USB 3.2, so you would have to have a USB 4.0 cable and connect to one of the Thunderbolt 4 ports on your new Mac, and have a USB 3.2 port and port adaptor on the drive to get to 20 Mbps. But quite frankly USB 3.0's 5 Gpbs will still adequate for TIme Machine. (Changes in Time Machine have dramatically reduced the amount of data written to the disk. The only time disk speed would be noticeable is during the data recovery stage and it appears to me that is compute not I/O bound.


Daisy Disk, Disk Map Analyzer, and Grand Perspective all do pretty much the same thing provide an indication of what and how the disk space is being used and will delete temporary files to free up some disk space. They are not app unistallers nor do they do anything like DriveDX.


S.M.A.R.T. has been around for years but for much of that time we either did not have the tools to access all the data and even when we had the full S.M.A.R.T. picture available, significant technical sophistication was required to analyze it. Micromat's Lifespan and Drivescope were first-generation tools intended to automate the data gathering and analysis task. I think DriveDX is in the second or third generation of that technology that has grown out of the open-source community. The people you talked to previously didn't have or maybe even know about these analytical tools. IHMO DriveDX is a game-changer and your experience would appear to bear that out.

"If that is DriveDX test results, strat looking for a good buy on replacements."

Joe: So what is the standard you go by to replace the drive?

Here: on the TM:

https://imgur.com/a/s6E8JOJ

Left 2 little errors, few hours later only 1. So thought oh 1 little error, ok? dont understand metric there at all: 1 (1/0) maybe be ok later? go away? Even with on right one error, you'd be replacing? You want 0 problems? I'm asking maybe fine until...Top not say green/ good.. could still have years left ok?


"The limiting factor will always be the lowest USB protocol level (USB 3.0, 3.1, etc. of any device, cable, "

But if D2s provide cable, and go into a brand new M! 27" in few months isn't everything optimal for 20gb?
https://www.lacie.com/products/d2/

Oh.. current 27" has 4 ports end back not sure what new one will have, hence may be a hub in mix ....


How long has drive DX been around in it's current so easy to see form?

"The people you talked to previously didn't have or maybe even know about these analytical tools." I talking to senior Apple techs last week, and a "computer sales specialist' at BH... You'd guess they don't know? Sadly..

That is a judgement call in my opinion. Some years ago, a major study by Google labs reached the conclusion that heat alone was not a major cause of drive failure. Note that in this case the overheat value has not been exceeded, but approached. My question is why is the drive running so hot? Overheating can be caused by many factors but some common causes are, in rank order...

• The enclosure's air vents are clogged with dust
• The enclosure is in a too warm location
• The enclosure is in a location with restricted air circulation
• The fan in the enclosure has failed
• Bad enclosure design
• The drive mechanism is failing

Most are easily corrected with a good dust rag, canned air, and relocating the enclosure to a cooler location with better air circulation. A new drive in the same location would have the same problem very quickly. Only you can determine your personal risk tolerance but if it were my drive I would perform each of the following steps in order...

1. With the drive powered down, check the enclosure for dust and very gently blow out the ventilation holes with canned air.
2. Carefully examine the location of the drive for environmental heat, air circulation, anything that might reduce airflow or prevent heat dissipation and correct all problems found.
3. If there is a fan in the enclosure, I would manually trigger a Time Machine backup and listen closely to see if the fan is turning on. If not I would consider replacing the enclosure and keeping the existing drive mechanism. A new enclosure. A bare enclosure costs $50 and an enclosure with a new 4TB drive $200. You know your own skill level with tools but it is a 10 - 15 minute job and the only tool required to make the swap is a small Phillips screwdriver.
4. Continue to Monitor DriveDX reports closely and if the drive continues to run hot then I would probably replace it. (Personally I am a fan of OWC's Mercury Elite Pro enclosures, they aren't pretty, but they are quiet (passive cooling and no fan), rugged, and reliable. I have some of their enclosures I have used for years by swapping out the enclosed drive mechanism with increasingly larger hard drives and in some cases replaced the HD with an SSD.

Assuming you choose the right port on your new Mac and presuming the port on your Mac is the same type as the connector on the supplied cable the answer is yes, but the USB protocol of the d2 desktop drive is USB 3.1 Gen 2 and the standard for 3.1 gen 2 is 10 Mbps, not 20. So expect half of what you were hoping for

Joe thanks Today, different status Tm look

https://imgur.com/a/tK5JWxx

Is till heat?

no, other drives will not suffer, as all next to each other in same place to unique to that one Seagate for some reason. No stomach for doing any of that troubleshooting or case, just replace. That said it could still go years? You don't have a rule to how many issue.. don't even get numbers what mean 4/ 1... 1/0 dont' understand any of it.


These D2 brand new, their elite model, any guess why would not be at standard for 20gb, what is that called 3.2? ANd you don't notice much performance bump from 5gb, 10gb, 20gb..?

I don't think great externals, 8TB in $200 range any better...?

There is no indication of heat or any other problem in this report, it is about as good as you can get.


This picture is worth 1,000 words. Don't get wrapped around that axle over numbers, DriveDX interprets those for you. The numbers are for the more technically sophisticated users. Colors are important too, green is good, yellow/amber is not so good (failing), and red is bad (failed).


Minimal development cost (technology upgrades are expensive), insufficient market demand, the PC products are a commodity market based on price not performance.


3.2 is a USB Standard that hasn't gone much of anywhere and is often confused/conflated with USB 3.1 Gen 2. The nomenclature has switched back and forth over the years, and to be honest I am not sure where things have landed other than 3.1 Gen 2 is 10 Mbps.

Yes there is a very noticeable difference between 5 Gbps, 10 Gbps, 20 Gbps, and 40 Gbps data transfer rates. Whether that is important depends upon the task. If I were using a disk drive for professional video production I would demand the fastest data transfer rate I could get and insist on Thunderbolt 4 SSDs and probably some type of RAID array to ensure data integrity (think in terms of $20,000 to $30,000 or more in data storage alone). If my tasks is archival data storage of company records replace the SSDs with Tape drives but I would probably stick with Thunderbolt 4 because of the bandwidth. For most backup purposes 5 Gbps will get the job done and best of all the technology at that level is CHEAP. Uping that to a 10 Gbps data rate would not add much to the price and might be nice in a particular circumstance, but I wouldn't pay much to get it.


LaCie is good but like many enclosure makers the drive inside (which is the whole point of the exercise) was purchased from Seagate, Western Digital, or Toshiba on a low cost bid basis and may be different from one production run to the next. My personal preference has been OWC enclosures with Toshiba HDs or OWC SSDs/NVMEs.

"There is no indication of heat or any other problem in this report, it is about as good as you can get.
"

thanks Joe, but in problems you have something there at bottom say 4 instead 0. Want all zeros. no?

I don't see the non-zero values you are referring to, but as long as the Health rating is 100% you have nothing to worry about. The only way to guarantee there will be no non-zero values is to never take the drive out of the box and turn it on, many are quite normal and some zero values actually indicate the drive has already failed. Once again DriveDX knows all of this and has the ability to interpret it for you. If you want to know more about S.M.A.R.T. spend some time reading and digesting this Wikipedia article.

"as long as the Health rating is 100% you have nothing to worry about. "

Ok Joe, Well the TM is actually 83%, has one issue found (keeps changing) etc, with numbers dont understand , but at top say: smart status ok, overall health and overall perforance, good all green at top, yet goods are both 83% ok so in fact TM is problematic, yet working...



The other older Seagate, Same thing but No issues found -- all green at top, but not 100% says 97.4% on those overall health, and performance.


The internal 6 ;year old MAC HD.. all green, 0 issues, 100% health, but 76% time remaining left

The brand new Lacie d2 in 100% unsurprisingly, all green.... no problems.

But saying now is later... with new drives.... if has 1 issue, can live with that as long as all 100% at top; but per force, it wont be 100% at top if got even 1 issue right?

And for the older Seagate, no issues, but at 97.4, not 100% you would then of replacing soon?

Actually, the drives are good but the ratings reflect the fact they are aging. All drives have feature that compensate for normal wear and tear and measured by S.M.A.R.T. DriveDX ratings reflect how many have been used and how many are remaining to be used.

As an example: Drive designers know that storage sectors will fail in numerous ways often when the drive is built so they provide spare sectors that can be re-mapped into service when a bad sector is detected. S.M.A.R.T./NVME tracks how often remapping is occurring and how many spare sectors are still available to be used. Even if the number of spare sectors reaches zero, the drive is still usable but if another sector fails, the disks total capacity will be reduced that much. By default, DriveDX will notify you when the number of spare sectors falls below 20% of the original total (but you can change that in DriveDX > Preferences > Advanced).

So the numbers you are seeing are normal for older drives, but in no way reflect on their integrity or reliability. If you replaced a drive every time one of those numbers fell below 100% few drives would last more than a few months or a year.


At that rate plan on replacing drives every few months or even weeks. The default tolerances in DriveDX are a good guideline.


Depends on your definition of soon. At 97.4% I would anticipate soon to be measured in years, probably several of them. But you can be at 100% and in rare circumstances go to total failure in less than a second. But in the end, all of this is based on statistical probabilities and the probablity of a sudden failure on a drive rated 100% is at the far extreme edge of the normal distribution curve, approaching 1 in a million or better.

Final question JOe, so with hardrives, replaces as needed not on a random time.

Your opinion on my 27" imac? Bought May 2016, late 2015 model.. Is anything I need in a new model? No.

That said would you still by the new M1 when come out (as computer is getting older..) or just stay with the 27" I have, "if happy'.. as cliche goes....

When I got rid last 27" imac (which also had about 6 years).. I had to.. Photoshop was taking a full minute to open an image and the the computer solved that... But the current 27" is still working speedy/ fine now for some reason 6 years in.

Here's my 2¢: My Late 2014 27" iMac, for the first time, will not be able to use the latest OS (Monterey). It appears that yours is only a year younger and it is possible that the OS after Monterey will be incompatible with it. If I were you, I would not replace your iMac now but wait to see what happens. If history is any indication, Apple will continue to update Monterey after its successor is crowned, if only for awhile. At that point, you can re-evaluate your options. Hopefully, Apple will re-issue a 27" iMac with the latest chip.

As for me, I'm waiting a bit since my iMac is performing admirably.

OK Jon so you answer is, "if you happy and works with current OS, keep it"

definitely YES!


According to Apple, your iMac will not run Ventura and Ventura offers a LOT of useful new features as well as continuing to implement major functional changes enabled by the structural changes in Monterey. Whether you need them or not may not be the right question. More like, do you want those features or not?


The following does not answer your question, but may help inform your decision. IF and that is a big IF Apple decides to continue the iMac form factor it would more likely be based on the M2 version of Apple Silicon rather than the M1. But the last I heard the iMac product line has come to its end, and you will have to get a Mac Mini, Studio, MacBook Air, or MacBook Pro for your next Mac. I switched from an iMac to a Mac mini several years ago and recently upgraded to a Studio, so I won't miss the iMac. My current Monitors have outlasted a MacBook Pro, an intel Mac mini, and an M1 Mac mini, so my upgrades have been several thousands of dollars less than they would have been had I been using iMacs.

I enjoy pushing the envelope so anything I say must be taken in light of that predilection. The decision to upgrade is more often based on want & desire, rather than need. I will also point out that computational speed is relative and what we perceive as fast can change in a heartbeat after using a new computer, and within a week, what was a speedy new computer has become the new norm. If I were in your shoes, the deciding factor would be the single fact that your 27" iMac will not be able to run Ventura. That does not mean it would not remain useful, it will. But, it means the next upgrade will have a significantly steeper learning curve. A secondary consideration would be the trade-in value, if any, of your iMac will never be more than it is today. So if you trade today and use Apple Pay, not only will you will be able to pay for a new M1 or M2 mac in 12 months at 0% interest, but you will pay less in the long run.

Joe thanks Did not know about VEntura, not working, so that is reason always to change... you cannot be on OS for reason along of no support for security reasons, right? You'd have security issues ...updates

"I heard the iMac product line has come to its end, and you will have to get a Mac Mini, Studio, MacBook Air, or MacBook Pro for your next Mac. I switched from an iMac to a Mac mini several years ago and recently upgraded to a Studio, so I won't miss the iMac. My current Monitors have outlasted a MacBook Pro, an intel Mac mini, and an M1 Mac mini, so my upgrades have been several thousands of dollars less than they would have been had I been using iMacs."''

Sure? They just released imac M1 for smaller screen... 24 inch no?

Don't understand how saved $... Imac goes for 6 years that a pretty good run for $1700? How did you save? Seems spend more no? (my Mac Book air lasted 9 years in the other room)

Studio is a fortune no? compared to $1700 for 27"

Also, that LG... monitor, wont have good speakers or good camera for Zoom / Google meetings?

Apple will publish security updates to Monterey for at least a few years


I must have been asleep when they announced that one, mea culpa. I think it is just the 27" iMac that is EOL.


The Studio is not comparable to the M1 iMac rather the M1 Mac Mini at $699. So, with a good 24" 4G display, and careful shopping you could come in under $1,000, and not only have an arguable more powerful and flexible machine, the monitor could easily live to be used on another machine in the future. Admittedly the iMac would be a sleeker package.

JOe, thanks, well if you could go more years on the 27" with MOnterrey (nothing I care about future editions)... then would you? Last time... again things were horriblly slow.. not noticing anything slow right now...

https://www.apple.com/mac-studio/

STudio starts 2k... so... maybe confused.

Want monitors at least 27.... you sent link previously of LG, sure ok but camera and speakers, maybe not as good who knows..

Looking at the Mac Mini M1, it only says 16GB ram, whereas my old 27 " has 24GB, so that is big downgrade in Ram?

As long as you are satisfied with the software you have today, willing to accept the additional risk of future forms of malware, and will not be unhappy if you take your iMac in for repairs and find ti is no longer supported by Apple.


The M1 iMac has the same Apple Silicon as the MacBook Air. iPad Pro and the Mac mini is actually (although the mini has 8 GPU cores to the iMacs 7). The Studio on the other hand uses M1 Max with two more high speed processor cores and eight more GPU cores or the M1 Ultra that puts it into the work station level of processing speed and power. So, as I said the Mac mini is comparable to the 24" M1 iMac and the Studio is in a significantly higher performance level.


All I can tell you is when I am on Zoom, I am frequently asked about the camera I use because it is so much better than what others are using and cost < $25. However, when Ventura is available, I will in all probability switch to using the rear facing camera and microphone in my iPhone to take advantage of its superior lenses, not to mention the ability to use the different lenses simultaneously.


That has been noted several times and places, that M1 Macs are able to get by with smaller memories than their Intel counterparts without degrading performance. I can't explain it, but there it is.

Thanks JOe, ok so you vote for getting rid of the 6 year old 27" as soon as can... .....moneywise.. just start thinking of replacing... I could get maybe used to 24' instead of 27"' screen, but love the 27"... or get Mac Mini with LG the LG link you posted few weeks ago...., or get Studio..computer with LG..? (maybe overkill 2k just for computer part..... but if going have something 6 years?) I don't think you'd buy Apple display correcct? But you might spend 2k on Studio computer?

That LG Monitor, l not 5k like Apples, you miss that? LG, mentioning camera that shoots you while sit in front of a meeting, not come with that? $25 buy something put it on top? Have link?

Some rumour may may something like 27 similar " again who knows..

Oh... RAM, my 27" has 24GB, you'd not want to go lower right? The minis can't get to that? Ok now see your reply? You concur with that..? or more argument to spend almost 3x get studio? or ok see even new imac 24s just 16 Ram

Other question for M computers: Just got 8 TB externals, I partition for emergencies backups for OS. So on on one external, and backup up again bank... I do now both Super Duper and CCC, why not have space. Those will work on on spinning disk (Lacie d2 or even older Seagate I have?), ok, for installing back up OS, if need be ok? Obviously SSD better.. but more $ and more clutter ---- have to buy new SSD just for OS backups.... your opinion?

And Drive X on alert.. You have it in your log in items to always running during the say, always on?

The Studio in my opinion would be overkill for you. Put difference between a mini and a Studio in the bank and buy an M2 or M3 mini with it in a few years.
The Apple Display is impressive, but not as impressive as the price. I have become too enamored of having two monitors to give one of them up and two 27" monitors would overwhelm my desktop, So I am quite happy with a 24" LG Ultra Fine Thunderbolt display and 21.5" LG Full HD HDMI monitor side-by-side. (Curiously enough they are exactly the same height so they look like this. (Note that is not my Studio on the desktop, it is a NewerTech Drive enclosure, the Studio is mounted out of sight under the desk.)


this is the one I bought and it provides the microphone as well. I have been very pleased and Facetime or Zoom participants have been very impressed. It does not offer tracking like Apple's built in cameras do, but the lighting is almost studio quality.



Unless you plan to work on billboard size images 16K is ample on an M1 machine. M1 iPad Pros get along just fine with 8 or 16 GB of memory, and they will be running "Full power" applications in iPadOS 16.


I do all my backups to HDs and save my external SSDs for use where fast I/O is important ie. my additional data drive.


Yes and why not? It is completely unobtrusive, and because it is always running, it can provide early warning of impending failures.

Thanks JOe, the LG you gave before was 27" LG, just $350 on Amazon....
https://www.amazon.com/LG-27UK650-W-Monitor-FreeSync-Technology/dp/B078GRM2MV

Good? wont miss 5k? I prefer just one monitor.. Used to 27" to that's nice.. but Mac Mini with a seperate display only $1100 or so vs $1800 for 24" Imac... you vote for mini and LG? The imac 24" lose monitor, plus, not much give you a Mini/ LG .... does not?m Just mostly Apple logo miss?

Ok drive X in log in items. ONly downside apple tech point out if want keep log in items to minimum as crash system sometimes, but ok.. I think I have 6 items in log in items, not too much?


"I do all my backups to HDs and save my external SSDs for use where fast I/O is important ie. my additional data drive."

Not sure understood Question.. Question was think Lacie d2 will be fine as backips for OS.. backups OS to use with M1 machines, thanks!

I just caught this. since you are running Catalina or later. DO NOT PARTITION a drive. Format it APFS and create additional Volumes on it. Unlike partitions, volumes can grow or shrink as needed and volumes can be added or deleted non-destructively at will. Each Volume has the potential to occupy the entire remaining space on the drive if it needs it. Volumes are far more flexible and easier to manage than partitions.

To create a Volume launch Disk Utility. Select the drive in the sidebar, and on the toolbar at the top of the Disk Utility Window, click on the plus sign above the word Volume and when prompted specify a name for the volume. That is all there is to it. To delete a volume select it in the sidebar and click the minus sign above the word volume.

Volumes appear on the desktop just as any other drive, partition, or disk image file.

Yes Joe I just use word partition, as so used to it. So should use drive all time no no more using work partition? Yeah Apple tech taught me how to to drives APFS.. Funny though I still use encrypted sparse drives, which you showed on forum years ago. The encryption for APTS is PITA, as they mount on desktop, on all reboots, annoying, no way out of that Sparse encrypted just live in finder. Apple tech called me could not solve that, so still use sparse for encrypted folders..

Only ask this again sorry:

Thanks JOe, the LG you gave before was 27" LG, just $350 on Amazon....
https://www.amazon.com/LG-27UK650-W-Monitor-FreeSync-Technology/dp/B078GRM2MV

Good? wont miss 5k? I prefer just one monitor.. Used to 27" to that's nice.. but Mac Mini with a seperate display only $1100 or so vs $1800 for 24" Imac... you vote for mini and LG? The imac 24" lose monitor, plus, not much give you a Mini/ LG .... does not?m Just mostly Apple logo miss?

Ok drive X in log in items. ONly downside apple tech point out if want keep log in items to minimum as crash system sometimes, but ok.. I think I have 6 items in log in items, not too much?


"I do all my backups to HDs and save my external SSDs for use where fast I/O is important ie. my additional data drive."

Not sure understood Question.. Question was think Lacie d2 will be fine as backips for OS.. backups OS to use with M1 machines, thanks!

I would vote for the Mac mini and the monitor of your choice (I'm partial to LG) over the 24" iMac. You would actually end up with a bit more powerful machine (8 processor cores vs 7 in the iMac) and if Apple releases a new M2 or M3 Mac mini in the next few years between the trade-in and what you saved over the iMac you would have almost the price of a newer model Mac mini. By the way, if you like an uncluttered desktop (like I wish mine were), there are several excellent under desk mounts for the Mac mini to get it out of sight.


DO NOT PUT DRIVEDX IN THE STARTUP ITEMS LIST. Remove it from startup items then go to DriveDX > Preferences > General and check the box labeled Launch at login. It will still launch on startup but instead of through the startup items, through a "Launch Agent" or "Launch Daemon" which is Apple's preferred method.


It was an indirect way of indicating I thought the LaCie would serve nicely as a Time Machine drive. Personally I would rotate the bank drive in a different, perhaps simpler, manner using only Time Machine, but there is no harm in the way you do it and it works.

Thanks JOe, ok will notate all. Did not put DRive X yet in log in items. Will look for that. I think Kayboard maestro has same thing , still with them I think end up in log in items. You agree, keep log in item to minimum.

I think the SSD for back up OS vs, is Lacie ok for that, is not getting through... I would like Lacies to do that as so much space on them in a APFS "drive"...

I am saying that I would use the LaCies for your backup drive. The speed of a SSD would be very expensive, and completely unnecessary overkill in the backup role. And the LaCies can be formatted APFS and therefore could potentially become bootable backups.

On the subject of bootable backups, there is a catch to using any external drive on a Mac with Apple Silicon. It won't be bootable if there is a complete failure of the internal drive. This has been discussed in detail on these forums many times, but to summarize.

• On Apple Silicon Macs there are hidden partitions/Volumes, Preboot, iSCPreboot that are required to boot the system (these functions are in firmware on Intel Macs)
• Those volumes are not created by the macOS installer
• They can only be created by connecting two Macs back to back using a Thunderbolt 4 cable, booting the target Mac into Thunderbolt disk Mode and using Apple Configurator 2 and the correct installation image on the other Mac. I have done it, and it is more complicated than it looks.
• The bootable volume is not the physical hardware itself, it is a sealed and encrypted APFS Snapshot that cannot be copied without breaking the seal and can only be created by the installer, so traditional cloning techniques will not work¹.
• There is a deprecated Apple created utility, that can clone enough of the system to be bootable, although it is not a complete clone and third-party kernel extensions likely will not survive the cloning process. Mike Bombich uses that utility in Carbon Copy Cloner to create "bootable clone", but he does not recommend it.²
• The moral of this story is you can clone or install macOS on an external drive on Apple Silicon Macs, but it will only be bootable with the help of the Preboot volumes on the internal drive.
• I don't know whether Apple Configurator 2 will work on an external drive or not.

Footnote:

1. Apple has made it clear that in the event of a drive failure they intend for you to reinstall macOS from the Recovery Drive and recover your data and third-party applications from Time Machine.
2. Mike Bombich, the developer of Carbon Copy Cloner, recommends cloning the data volume to the external drive then booting into Recovery mode and Installing macOS if you ever need to make the external drive bootable rather than attempting to create a bootable clone. The Apple clone utility he uses in CCC may or may not work in Ventura.

Thanks JOe, well my main Data is on an external too, as well as backups.. Right? NO data is on and SSD internal or external.. (Data is getting near 3TB) But from what you are saying, these new Lacie d2 will be fine for BAckup OS, emergencies even in the M!, M2 world... ?

Final.. any idea why (sent few emails to Seagate rep , no response); why D2 don't have the new 20GB speed- 3.2 , but only 10GB speed? Curious on that..

Absolutely fine even in the M1, M2 World


I can pose a few possible reasons...

• Insufficient market demand for the faster interface
• No supporting USB 3.2 cables, adaptors, etc are available on the market (because of insufficient demand)
• Few if any PCs and no Mac computers have USB 3.2 ports (which is confusing because USB 3.1 Gen 2 is often marketed as USB 3.2)
• Where high-speed throughput is desired/required, USB 4 or Thunderbolt are superior technologies with twice the throughput of USB 3.2 (not to mention twice the price)
• External drives are a commodity product and low price is the primary deciding factor. The difference in price caused by the technology upgrade could price LaCie out of the market or negatively impact their profit margin.
• An uninformed and/or misinformed public that is only vaguely aware of most of what we have discussed in this thread, and has been adeptly confused by marketing labels such as 'High Speed" and "SuperSpeed".

Thanks Joe, so no point in even looking for a Seagate or other 3.2 drive ... not really around/ exist?

And USB 4 is wonderful, but same thing, non existent as well... because externals with 3.2 or 4 cost lot more to make?

Of course, very weird, as don't remember anything like this.... I think USB 1, and the Seagate or Lacie or.. WD would make the new drives with new USB number.... I guess suddenly doing that was more expensive that in past going from 1 to 2..?

The drive alone is not enough, you also have to have a compatible port on the computer and a compatible cable as well as a compatible hub, and your are right about being more costly. A 6 foot USB 3.0 cable costs ~$7 a 2 meter Thunderbolt 4 cable costs $70 or ten times as much!

Thanks JOe, returned few hardrive today, hope that goes well!

Thanks for help on current madness and misdiagnoses by Apple.. and others, (Sales reps)

So true: that in past computer would have new USB ports and the external drive maker would follow suit? That was expected once?

Impressed with Drivs DX, that technology where have software that analyzes with Smart so elegantly has been around now how long? Only year or two?

And Disk Warrior; Tech Tool Pro.. obsolete now?

In My Humble Opinion, they are not obsolete, they are still excellent apps. But, improvements in Disk Utility, the stability of macOS disk management systems, the Recovery Drive, and APFS, have (again IMHO) rendered them largely unnecessary. Out of date versions can do more harm than good (most of them will only run on one macOS version), updates are pricey, and they are so seldom needed, many (most?) of us take the position that we will only buy them again, if and when, they are actually needed. I haven't actually needed DiskWarrior, TechTool Pro, or Drive Genius in several years, and I finally deleted my long-time favorite. that I had been with since macOS 1 (or thereabout), TechTool Pro, when I installed Catalina.

Thanks Joe, great tips...Final bit; as stabilizing hard drives. Now 27" wont come out... Could wait... for month to 2 years, if wanted.. but you would get rolling on Mac Mini, soon, primarily because you never know when a 2016 computer will meltdown? The internal hardrive is good, but? Would vote to hang onto the old 27" up to what point in time- latest?

And on monitor : that LG is 4k, I think, have you ever owned 5k monitor, if so would notice miss 5 k going to LG 4K...or is it subtle difference, not big deal... Is there a 5k LG 27" not too much more expensive?

And final Drive X, when check externals, do you also need to check/ look at/ click on also, the "sub volumes" "you created through APFS? The ones you name... OR just that top root thing.. what.. Container or one above that listed name HD, ie Lacie/ Seagate. understand that?

Same Question if running DU repair, do repair sub volumes or just click Container or Level above that?

And again Drive X, so impressive, you say even though SMART been around, an app that so elegantly uses it well only been on scene since? curious.

JOe sorry for the delay, ok finally went to preferences, thinking of these settings, opinion?

https://imgur.com/a/0urYJ9Y

More importantly, I assumed would be alert on computer, but need to email? And lost there, send from..??


Thanks