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Posted By: plantsower Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/19/20 07:26 PM
I like to look at my inbox and my sent box in date order. I am always have to change it. Is there a way to make it permanent? I mean, is there a terminal command or something else I can do?

Thanks.
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/19/20 08:53 PM
That should stick. It's possible that you have a corrupted preference file. Quit Mail. Move ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist to the desktop and relaunch Mail. (You may have to reset your preferences, of course.) If the problem is solved, you can trash that plist. If not, quit Mail, move the plist back, and relaunch Mail.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/19/20 09:53 PM
Hi, Rita.

Without getting into the nitty gritty, I'll suggest that after you move that plist to your desktop you restart your MBP before you relaunch Mail.
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/19/20 10:49 PM
Good suggestion, Artie. I don't know if that's necessary but it certainly won't hurt.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/19/20 11:29 PM
These two posts by ganbustein deal with moving plists...

http://www.finetunedmac.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=31858&#Post31858

http://www.finetunedmac.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=32425&#Post32425

I never use Terminal when I can do something "seat of the pants," rather I move my plist and restart, and it has been a reliable procedure.
I can't find my mail plist. I went to Library, Preferences and then couldn't find it. The search bar is useless as it calls up everything but what I want. Why doesn't the search bar bring up stuff in the preferences folder only? I get don't get why it pulls stuff from all over my Mac except for what I want. Typing in plist doesn't work at all either.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Hi, Rita.

Without getting into the nitty gritty, I'll suggest that after you move that plist to your desktop you restart your MBP before you relaunch Mail.
Posted By: Ira L Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/20/20 05:11 PM
Make sure you go to your User's Library (that's what "~" indicates) and not the Library associated with your Mac HD. It can be found in the User's Library, never fear.

For me too the Finder search does not reveal the .plist for Mail. That could be a "safety" measure by Apple to protect us from ourselves. wink
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/20/20 05:29 PM
If you have problems getting to your user library, click the Go menu in Finder, select Go To Folder, and type (or paste) ~/Library. Then, press Return. (In case ~ is not easily visible on your screen, it's the tilde at the upper left of the keyboard, just below esc.)
This is what I got with ~Library/mail. Still can't find the proper plist.

PersistenceInfo.plist
V4
0F7360FC-3368-4493-8BF1-19B92A821CED
2CB18F87-EB6D-4B66-8672-C873FD884111
08C8B47B-A379-4C56-B90E-CB075DDEFDB5
26280D0F-5F0F-47C8-8ACA-3905B0515B14
D553DB7E-E834-449D-B011-B4C8476CF00F
F6E7BEAC-9C39-48CE-B679-A86BD903145E
FC863C25-90CD-409C-8D25-3ABB7EACBFE9
MailData
BackupTOC.plist
DefaultCounts
Envelope Index
Envelope Index-shm
Envelope Index-wal
ExternalUpdates.storedata
ExternalUpdates.storedata-shm
ExternalUpdates.storedata-wal
FlagMailboxes.plist
LSMMap2
OpenedAttachmentsV2.plist
RulesActiveState.plist
Signatures
SmartMailboxesLocalProperties.plist
SyncedFilesInfo.plist
SyncedRules.plist
SyncedSmartMailboxes.plist
UnsyncedRules.plist
VIPSenders.plist
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
If you have problems getting to your user library, click the Go menu in Finder, select Go To Folder, and type (or paste) ~/Library. Then, press Return. (In case ~ is not easily visible on your screen, it's the tilde at the upper left of the keyboard, just below esc.)
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/20/20 06:22 PM
Wrong folder! You want ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist.
It said "the folder cannot be found" when I did it this way.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Wrong folder! You want ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/20/20 06:33 PM
When I paste " ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist" (NO quotes) into a Go to Folder window it takes me right there.

If not, just type in ~/Library and navigate.
I'm not sure why it didn't work the first time, but this time it did. How do I get it to my desktop. I clicked "control" and got some options but no "move to" options except trash. I couldn't drag it either.


Originally Posted By: artie505
When I paste " ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist" (NO quotes) into a Go to Folder window it takes me right there.

If not, just type in ~/Library and navigate.
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/20/20 07:27 PM
You could trash it and then drag it from Trash to the desktop. Of course, you could leave it in Trash for later retrieval, but that's risky; you might inadvertently empty Trash.
Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. I will trash it and drag it out now and continue on to see what happens after I shut down and reopen everything. Thank you.


Originally Posted By: jchuzi
You could trash it and then drag it from Trash to the desktop. Of course, you could leave it in Trash for later retrieval, but that's risky; you might inadvertently empty Trash.
OK. That didn't work. I noticed that after I put it in the trash, it replicated itself immediately in Finder. So, if it is corrupted, it just replicated the same corrupt file, I guess. I decided to quit mail and then go to Finder and do it all over again but, again, I got the "the folder can't be found" message. Cripes!




Originally Posted By: jchuzi
You could trash it and then drag it from Trash to the desktop. Of course, you could leave it in Trash for later retrieval, but that's risky; you might inadvertently empty Trash.
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/20/20 09:16 PM
When you drag a plist out of its parent folder, a new, pristine plist is created to replace it (that could explain your observation). Also, you should drag the plist out while Mail is not open. Try resetting your Mail preferences and see if they stick.
Yes, I was trying to do that but once again ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist doesn't work. I just hear an error bell. I even reactivated mail to see if it would work that way, but nope. It only worked once for me. frown


Originally Posted By: jchuzi
When you drag a plist out of its parent folder, a new, pristine plist is created to replace it (that could explain your observation). Also, you should drag the plist out while Mail is not open. Try resetting your Mail preferences and see if they stick.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/20/20 09:52 PM
Just enter "~/Library" (No quotes) in Go to Folder and navigate from there to /Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist BY HAND.

That plist replicates itself if Mail isn't quit when it's trashed, and it will do the same if it's trashed after Mail is quit but before you restart, which is why the restart is necessary.

I can't imagine why you couldn't just drag that file from its home to your desktop; it's one of the few things that Apple hasn't prohibited yet. tongue
It didn't work, but I noticed when I did it by hand or the other way as mentioned with the Go to Folder, it's taking me to the Mac HD list not the users list. I don't know how to get to the user's list, I guess. I must have done it once but now it's not getting me there.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Just enter "~/Library" (No quotes) in Go to Folder and navigate from there to /Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist BY HAND.

That plist replicates itself if Mail isn't quit when it's trashed, and it will do the same if it's trashed after Mail is quit but before you restart, which is why the restart is necessary.

I can't imagine why you couldn't just drag that file from its home to your desktop; it's one of the few things that Apple hasn't prohibited yet. tongue
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/20/20 11:12 PM
If it's taking you to the Mac HD list rather than the users list it's because you didn't enter the tilde, i.e. "~/Library; you just entered /Library without the tilde.
Not true. I go to Finder-Go to Folder-paste in ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist and click go. I just get the ding sound when one tries to do something and can't on a Mac. I hope you know what I mean by that.




Originally Posted By: artie505
Wrong folder! You want ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 12:22 AM
This is getting silly, so it's time for something completely different.

This shows you how to make your home folder permanently visible.

You should be able to take it from there.
I made Library visible a long time ago. When I click on it and then on the preference folder, this is what I get, and I see no mail plist.

.bcb53190a25c427979276b98bafe9e9
.GlobalPreferences.plist
Audio
com.apple.airport.opproam.plist
com.apple.alf.plist
com.apple.AppleFileServer.plist
com.apple.apsd.launchd
com.apple.apsd.plist
com.apple.AssetCache.plist
com.apple.BezelServices.plist
com.apple.Bluetooth.plist
com.apple.ByteRangeLocking.plist
com.apple.commerce.plist
com.apple.CoreRAIDServer.cfdb
com.apple.dock.plist
com.apple.driver.AppleIRController.plist
com.apple.FindMyMac.plist
com.apple.HIToolbox.plist
com.apple.iokit.AmbientLightSensor.plist
com.apple.loginwindow.plist
com.apple.MCX.plist
com.apple.networkextension.cache.plist
com.apple.networkextension.necp.plist
com.apple.networkextension.plist
com.apple.noticeboard.plist
com.apple.P2PSupervisor.plist
com.apple.PowerManagement.26C8CDC4-DB76-5021-9111-5A887E6EA221.plist
com.apple.PowerManagement.plist
com.apple.preferences.accounts.plist
com.apple.security.appsandbox.plist
com.apple.security.plist
com.apple.security.systemidentities.plist
com.apple.SoftwareUpdate.plist
com.apple.systemprefs.plist
com.apple.TimeMachine.plist
com.apple.timezone.auto.plist
com.apple.updatesettings.plist
com.apple.ViewBridge.plist
com.apple.windowserver.plist
DirectoryService
Logging
OpenDirectory
org.cups.printers.plist
SystemConfiguration
Xsan



Originally Posted By: artie505
This is getting silly, so it's time for something completely different.

This shows you how to make your home folder permanently visible.

You should be able to take it from there.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 01:26 AM
That's the wrong library.

It's /Library, and it's always been visible. The one you want is /Users/yourshortname/Library. You want to see it when you click on your little house.

Did you try following the instructions?
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 02:41 AM
Wait, I just realized whats going on!

Those two items at the top of your list, the ones with dots in front of them, are generally invisible, so, as you said you did, somewhere along the line you made your invisibles visible, but /Users/yourshortname/Library is NOT one of those ordinarily invisible items.

Rather, it's HIDDEN, and you've got to follow the instructions I posted to UNHIDE it.
Posted By: MacManiac Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 02:41 AM
Hi Rita,

Looking at the listing you've provided it's pretty clear that you are getting into one of the THREE different Library directories, but not the one that Artie keeps trying to send you to.....the one you want is found by copying and pasting this address:

~/Library/Preferences

into the Finder's "Go to Folder" pull down under the Go menu.

If you try to just type the address, you will more times than not get it wrong and end up somewhere else.

The little symbol in the front of that address is actually a Tilde not a dash.....the Tilde is shorthand for getting to the Library that lives in your User Home Directory (and it is normally invisible so that folks can't find it to mess up the contents by mistake).

You'll know that you got to the correct Library if the listing includes stuff that looks more like this:

com.apple.Accessibility.plist
com.apple.accounts.dom.plist
com.apple.accounts.plist
com.apple.accountsd.plist
com.apple.ActivityMonitor.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.abd.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.plist.lockfile
com.apple.AddressBook.sync.plist.lockfile
com.apple.AddressBookSourceSync.plist
com.apple.AddressBookSourceSync.plist.lockfile
com.apple.AdLib.plist
com.apple.adminframework.plist
com.apple.adminframework.plist.lockfile
com.apple.airplay.plist
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 02:47 AM
We crossed in the mail, but I'd better correct you before Rita gets even more confused.

Originally Posted By: MacManiac
You'll know that you got to the correct Library if the listing includes stuff that looks more like this:

com.apple.Accessibility.plist

That's the contents of /Users/ysn/Library/Preferences.

/Users/ysn/Library should look like...

Accessibility
Accounts
Address Book Plug-Ins
Application Scripts
Application Support
Assistant
Audio
Autosave Information
BBEdit
Bundles
Caches
Now I am confused, and a little ticked, and am giving up.


Originally Posted By: artie505
We crossed in the mail, but I'd better correct you before Rita gets even more confused.

Originally Posted By: MacManiac
You'll know that you got to the correct Library if the listing includes stuff that looks more like this:

com.apple.Accessibility.plist

That's the contents of /Users/ysn/Library/Preferences.

/Users/ysn/Library should look like...

Accessibility
Accounts
Address Book Plug-Ins
Application Scripts
Application Support
Assistant
Audio
Autosave Information
BBEdit
Bundles
Caches
Believe it or not, I followed your directions below (before this post) and got nowhere. I even copied and pasted it, I didn't type in a dash. I think I'm done with this, but thanks so much for trying to help.

Originally Posted By: MacManiac
Hi Rita,

Looking at the listing you've provided it's pretty clear that you are getting into one of the THREE different Library directories, but not the one that Artie keeps trying to send you to.....the one you want is found by copying and pasting this address:

~/Library/Preferences

into the Finder's "Go to Folder" pull down under the Go menu.

If you try to just type the address, you will more times than not get it wrong and end up somewhere else.

The little symbol in the front of that address is actually a Tilde not a dash.....the Tilde is shorthand for getting to the Library that lives in your User Home Directory (and it is normally invisible so that folks can't find it to mess up the contents by mistake).

You'll know that you got to the correct Library if the listing includes stuff that looks more like this:

com.apple.Accessibility.plist
com.apple.accounts.dom.plist
com.apple.accounts.plist
com.apple.accountsd.plist
com.apple.ActivityMonitor.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.abd.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.plist.lockfile
com.apple.AddressBook.sync.plist.lockfile
com.apple.AddressBookSourceSync.plist
com.apple.AddressBookSourceSync.plist.lockfile
com.apple.AdLib.plist
com.apple.adminframework.plist
com.apple.adminframework.plist.lockfile
com.apple.airplay.plist
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 03:01 AM
Forget that!

Just read and digest my post #54660, and follow the instructions I posted on Imgur, and we'll be in business.

The library you need to access will be unhidden and readily accessible.

Link to Imgur
Artie: I told you above that what you showed me on Imgur I did a long time ago. I already can always see my library. I went through the motions via your instructions and came to the same end. I could see that I had already checked show library folder. It's just not working for me. Also, what preferences do I need to change in order to see your post #54660? None of the posts are numbered in my view of things here.

Originally Posted By: artie505
Forget that!

Just read and digest my post #54660, and follow the instructions I posted on Imgur, and we'll be in business.

The library you need to access will be unhidden and readily accessible.

Link to Imgur
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 05:57 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Artie: I told you above that what you showed me on Imgur I did a long time ago. I already can always see my library. I went through the motions via your instructions and came to the same end. I could see that I had already checked show library folder. It's just not working for me. Also, what preferences do I need to change in order to see your post #54660? None of the posts are numbered in my view of things here.

Time to stop for a second and take a deep breath.

It wasn't clear to me that you followed the Imgur instructions, because you didn't say it specifically, and I was confused by the fact that your invisible items are visible.

You just said "I already can always see my library" and "I could see that I had already checked show library folder. It's just not working for me."

If you can see your USER library, what's not working for you?

If you double-click on your little house, one of the items you should see is "Library." Are you saying that you don't see it even though you've followed the Imgur instructions?

Aside: Post numbers are in the top right corner of each post, like this.
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 10:56 AM
Here's another way to access your User Library:

1. Double-click the Macintosh HD icon to open it.
2. Find the Users folder.
3. Open the Users folder.
4. Open the folder with your user name.
5. Open the Library folder (this is your User Library).
6. You should find a Preferences folder within Library. Open it and look for com.apple.mail.plist
OK, I see what I did wrong. When I opened Finder I saw the Library listed on the side bar. I thought that was the Library that I made visible. Maybe it was, but I also thought it was the User Library. This time I clicked on my "house" and then on Library, Preferences and found com.apple.mail-shared.plist. I don't see one that isn't shared though. Should I use that one?

*********


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Artie: I told you above that what you showed me on Imgur I did a long time ago. I already can always see my library. I went through the motions via your instructions and came to the same end. I could see that I had already checked show library folder. It's just not working for me. Also, what preferences do I need to change in order to see your post #54660? None of the posts are numbered in my view of things here.

Time to stop for a second and take a deep breath.

It wasn't clear to me that you followed the Imgur instructions, because you didn't say it specifically, and I was confused by the fact that your invisible items are visible.

You just said "I already can always see my library" and "I could see that I had already checked show library folder. It's just not working for me."

If you can see your USER library, what's not working for you?

If you double-click on your little house, one of the items you should see is "Library." Are you saying that you don't see it even though you've followed the Imgur instructions?

Aside: Post numbers are in the top right corner of each post, like this.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 05:23 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
... I clicked on my "house" and then on Library, Preferences and found com.apple.mail-shared.plist. I don't see one that isn't shared though. Should I use that one?

I've got both com.apple.mail-shared.plist and com.apple.mail.plist...dunno why you haven't got "mail."

It should have been there since time immemorial, and it doesn't make any sense that you haven't got it, because even if you accidentally trashed it at some point it should have been recreated the next time you launched Mail. confused

But then again, maybe your not having it is at the root of your issue, and if so, I haven't got a clue what comes next.

At any rate, the "shared" pref has nothing to do with your issue, so leave it be.

(The Library folder in your sidebar is apparently /Library, and I suggest that you drag it out to avoid future confusion.)

More: Upgrade??? wink
I still have the original com.apple.mail.plist on my desktop. I thought it replicated itself, but I don't see it. Maybe I should just put it back in and start all over.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
... I clicked on my "house" and then on Library, Preferences and found com.apple.mail-shared.plist. I don't see one that isn't shared though. Should I use that one?

I've got both com.apple.mail-shared.plist and com.apple.mail.plist...dunno why you haven't got "mail."

It should have been there since time immemorial, and it doesn't make any sense that you haven't got it, because even if you accidentally trashed it at some point it should have been recreated the next time you launched Mail. confused

But then again, maybe your not having it is at the root of your issue, and if so, I haven't got a clue what comes next.

At any rate, the "shared" pref has nothing to do with your issue, so leave it be.

(The Library folder in your sidebar is apparently /Library, and I suggest that you drag it out to avoid future confusion.)

More: Upgrade??? wink
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 06:52 PM
Oh, I lost track of where you were at.

Even though you quit Mail, moved the plist, restarted, and launched Mail, the plist won't recreate itself until you set a pref. (Without your having set any prefs there's no need for a p[reference]list. wink )
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 07:20 PM
Artie, this may be a red herring as I am using MacOS as you are, but I did a search for com.apple.mail.plist using FindAnyFile and to my surprise found several on my boot drive. Then I started opening them in Xcode and found the contents were very different and the one in my user Library was almost certainly NOT the property list plantsower is looking for. I found the one I believe you all are looking for is:
Code:
~/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist
When and why Apple has moved it and why they have chosen to use such a baroque file path is well beyond my ken, but there it is. You have done a great job guiding plantsower so far and I am backing out and leaving it up to you to determine if that was the case in Sierra or a more recent change.

PS: That isn't the only thing that has migrated to a new home in the ~/Library/Containers folder.
Thanks, JoeMike. I guess I will wait on Artie to see if I should do it the old way or not.


Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Artie, this may be a red herring as I am using MacOS as you are, but I did a search for com.apple.mail.plist using FindAnyFile and to my surprise found several on my boot drive. Then I started opening them in Xcode and found the contents were very different and the one in my user Library was almost certainly NOT the property list plantsower is looking for. I found the one I believe you all are looking for is:
Code:
~/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist
When and why Apple has moved it and why they have chosen to use such a baroque file path is well beyond my ken, but there it is. You have done a great job guiding plantsower so far and I am backing out and leaving it up to you to determine if that was the case in Sierra or a more recent change.

PS: That isn't the only thing that has migrated to a new home in the ~/Library/Containers folder.
So, I still need to know if I should put the plist back into the library from my desktop and start over unless what JoeMike said threw everything off. I will await your grand wisdom.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Oh, I lost track of where you were at.

Even though you quit Mail, moved the plist, restarted, and launched Mail, the plist won't recreate itself until you set a pref. (Without your having set any prefs there's no need for a p[reference]list. wink )
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/21/20 11:08 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I will await your grand wisdom.

Preliminary wisdom: Break your MBP in half, give the guts back to Apple and the screen to your ISP, and adopt your letter carrier. crazy

More later.
Looking forward to more.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I will await your grand wisdom.

Preliminary wisdom: Break your MBP in half, give the guts back to Apple and the screen to your ISP, and adopt your letter carrier. crazy

More later.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/22/20 06:46 AM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Artie, this may be a red herring as I am using MacOS as you are, but I did a search for com.apple.mail.plist using FindAnyFile and to my surprise found several on my boot drive. Then I started opening them in Xcode and found the contents were very different and the one in my user Library was almost certainly NOT the property list plantsower is looking for. I found the one I believe you all are looking for is:
Code:
~/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist
When and why Apple has moved it and why they have chosen to use such a baroque file path is well beyond my ken, but there it is. You have done a great job guiding plantsower so far and I am backing out and leaving it up to you to determine if that was the case in Sierra or a more recent change.

PS: That isn't the only thing that has migrated to a new home in the ~/Library/Containers folder.

I think this is reverse deja-vu, because if I remember correctly, I called your attention to the container arrangement in another thread a while back, and like you, I haven't got a clue why Apple did what they did. It's buried in obscurity.

I've run into a wall in that the oldest file system I'm able to examine is High Sierra, and Apple had already instituted containers by then. (I tried to examine Sierra in Pacifist, but it was a useless exercise.)

And finally, ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist has got ~5,500 lines of text in both High Sierra and Catalina, so I wouldn't mess with it under any circumstances even if it's the same plist that Rita's got.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/22/20 07:20 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Looking forward to more.


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I will await your grand wisdom.

Preliminary wisdom: Break your MBP in half, give the guts back to Apple and the screen to your ISP, and adopt your letter carrier. crazy

More later.

frown  And I hear that your letter carrier is both a pretty nice person and needs a home. tongue

Following up on my response to joemike, I'm kinda hamstrung.

In your home library folder, do you see ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail?

Under any circumstances, though, please open the plist on your desktop in TextEdit, and, unless it's enormous like I described to joemike, copy & paste its contents into a post. (You'll probably be asked to select an app when you double click on the plist, so navigate to /Apps in the dialog box and select TextEdit.)

You may be stuck for a fix other than upgrading, but I haven't got a clue why it may be the case. frown

(A major part of the problem with troubleshooting vintage OSs is that we can't access them.)
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/22/20 03:57 PM
Originally Posted By: artie505
And finally, ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist has got ~5,500 lines of text in both High Sierra and Catalina, so I wouldn't mess with it under any circumstances even if it's the same plist that Rita's got.

I just took a good look and ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist is most definitely what used to be ~/Library/preferences/com.apple.mail.plist. When you look at it in Xcode it isn't that fearsome, it is a typical property list file but there are a lot of "Dictionaries" and some of those "Dictionaries" have up to 30 items, and I would have sworn there was no way it would have ~5500 lines, but when I opened it in BBEdit the way it was parsed there are 5,847 lines as in many cases each word is a separate line and there are a bunch of formatting tags. But it is definitely the same file that used to be in ~/Library/preferences/com.apple.mail.plist with a few additions for new Mail features.

I don't recall if plantsower uses Time Machine or not, but if she does a possible solution would be to restore ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist from a point in time prior to the start of her problem. If that did not correct the problem or other problems arise, then it would be a simple matter to restore the most recent version of the file from Time Machine.

ASIDE: 🔆 I don't know why I hadn't though of using Time Machine in similar situations before.💡 Old habits I guess. 👴🏻

Originally Posted By: artie505
(A major part of the problem with troubleshooting vintage OSs is that we can't access them.)
AMEN!
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/22/20 04:06 PM
I'm not afraid of plists. If you've got a good memory you'll remember Hal's having given me grief over editing them by hand rather than Terminal.

But I've got absolutely no inclination to go through ~5,000 lines of text looking for...I'm not even sure what.

I don't now if I ever looked at the old plist, and I don't think Rita uses Time Machine.

Maybe we can get her to finally upgrade. tongue
I am probably not going to upgrade until I have to since I found out my problem was with my router anyway much to your chagrin I'm sure! I am not going to worry about the view preferences that keep changing either, because this has become a very complicated process. If I feel up to it, I will put my plist back into Finder and start over. Or I may not. I appreciate everyone's time, but this is too much for something as trivial as a view pref not staying put! smile



Originally Posted By: artie505
I'm not afraid of plists. If you've got a good memory you'll remember Hal's having given me grief over editing them by hand rather than Terminal.

But I've got absolutely no inclination to go through ~5,000 lines of text looking for...I'm not even sure what.

I don't now if I ever looked at the old plist, and I don't think Rita uses Time Machine.

Maybe we can get her to finally upgrade. tongue
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/22/20 11:26 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I am probably not going to upgrade until I have to since I found out my problem was with my router anyway much to your chagrin I'm sure! I am not going to worry about the view preferences that keep changing either, because this has become a very complicated process. If I feel up to it, I will put my plist back into Finder and start over. Or I may not. I appreciate everyone's time, but this is too much for something as trivial as a view pref not staying put! smile

Actually Rita, in retrospect, the whole exercise should have taken at most five minutes. The procedure is quite simple and has been around since the first MacOS beta release, but that was/is a big part of the problem. We have used it many many times in the past to solve exactly this kind of problem and we all assumed that it would still work the same way as before. But, while we weren't looking Apple had moved the pieces on the chessboard, and you, quite reasonably, assumed the Library in the sidebar of your Finder window was the user Library. So we all had a chance to once again learn what happens when we ASS U ME. blush

Hopefully this won't put you off upgrading. One reason we missed the change is because MacOS has become so stable we seldom, if ever, need the "trick" any more — I haven't needed it in years. That and as Artie pointed out, our lack of out of date OS versions to use as exemplars for troubleshooting are to my mind good reasons for you to bite the bullet and upgrade to Catalina. After all, next month Apple will presumably announce Catalina's successor and I will be running MacOS 10.16 not to mention iOS and iPadOS 14, public betas. 🤯
Yeah, I know. I wish I was braver, but I've heard so many negatives (don't ask, I can't remember) that I hesitate. Maybe someday.


Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I am probably not going to upgrade until I have to since I found out my problem was with my router anyway much to your chagrin I'm sure! I am not going to worry about the view preferences that keep changing either, because this has become a very complicated process. If I feel up to it, I will put my plist back into Finder and start over. Or I may not. I appreciate everyone's time, but this is too much for something as trivial as a view pref not staying put! smile

Actually Rita, in retrospect, the whole exercise should have taken at most five minutes. The procedure is quite simple and has been around since the first MacOS beta release, but that was/is a big part of the problem. We have used it many many times in the past to solve exactly this kind of problem and we all assumed that it would still work the same way as before. But, while we weren't looking Apple had moved the pieces on the chessboard, and you, quite reasonably, assumed the Library in the sidebar of your Finder window was the user Library. So we all had a chance to once again learn what happens when we ASS U ME. blush

Hopefully this won't put you off upgrading. One reason we missed the change is because MacOS has become so stable we seldom, if ever, need the "trick" any more — I haven't needed it in years. That and as Artie pointed out, our lack of out of date OS versions to use as exemplars for troubleshooting are to my mind good reasons for you to bite the bullet and upgrade to Catalina. After all, next month Apple will presumably announce Catalina's successor and I will be running MacOS 10.16 not to mention iOS and iPadOS 14, public betas. 🤯
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/23/20 01:20 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Yeah, I know. I wish I was braver, but I've heard so many negatives (don't ask, I can't remember) that I hesitate. Maybe someday.

Judging from your hesitance, that "someday" is likely to be the day your MBP meets its maker, i.e. goes back to Apple for recycling, and your new machine will be a FORCED upgrade of 'n' more versions of macOS than are facing you now. (Remember that they come EVERY YEAR now.)

You've asked FTM's assemblage of experienced users how they're faring with the upgrades and gotten zero negative response, so why let some anonymous complainers deter you from upgrading when the people to whom you turn when you've got a problem have all encouraged it?
You know me pretty well. Yes, that's how I usually do it. It's the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

Judging from your hesitance, that "someday" is likely to be the day your MBP meets its maker, i.e. goes back to Apple for recycling, and your new machine will be a FORCED upgrade of 'n' more versions of macOS than are facing you now. (Remember that they come EVERY YEAR now.)

Good point. I will have to think about that.


You've asked FTM's assemblage of experienced users how they're faring with the upgrades and gotten zero negative response, so why let some anonymous complainers deter you from upgrading when the people to whom you turn when you've got a problem have all encouraged it? [/quote]
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/23/20 04:26 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
You know me pretty well. Yes, that's how I usually do it. It's the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

My problem is that I think too much, and it keeps me from pulling the trigger before the price goes up or Amazon runs out or whatever.

And your problem is that you're ignoring the fact that even though it still works, it really is broke.

BANG! wink
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/23/20 07:30 AM
If I remember correctly, you've got only 4 GB RAM, in which case I suggest that you go no further than Mojave, because its minimum RAM is 2 GB, but it's gone up to a 4 GB minimum for Catalina, which might make it a bit tight on your MBP.
Yeah, and sometimes ignorance is bliss! You have to remember I don't do much other than email, text and search. Though the stupid autofill has quit working in a lot of places again.

Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
You know me pretty well. Yes, that's how I usually do it. It's the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

My problem is that I think too much, and it keeps me from pulling the trigger before the price goes up or Amazon runs out or whatever.

And your problem is that you're ignoring the fact that even though it still works, it really is broke.

BANG! wink
I actually have 8 GB ram. When I went checking to make sure I saw my Flash Drive and got a scare. I usually only use a tiny bit but now it says something different. See? Flash Storage

Or is that just because I divided it up for future OS's? I haven't reconfigured it yet because I don't want to think again about how to do it. frown




Originally Posted By: artie505
If I remember correctly, you've got only 4 GB RAM, in which case I suggest that you go no further than Mojave, because its minimum RAM is 2 GB, but it's gone up to a 4 GB minimum for Catalina, which might make it a bit tight on your MBP.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/23/20 09:06 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I actually have 8 GB ram.

Which is ample for Catalina given your uses of the computer.

Originally Posted By: plantsower
When I went checking to make sure I saw my Flash Drive and got a scare. I usually only use a tiny bit but now it says something different. See? Flash Storage

Or is that just because I divided it up for future OS's? I haven't reconfigured it yet because I don't want to think again about how to do it. frown

It is just because you divided it up for future OS's, but in my opinion you are right to be concerned about the lack of free overhead in your MACINTOSH HD partition. Your Flash Drive (a.k.a. SSD or NVMe) realistically does not have sufficient capacity for three operating systems. Technically they can all run in the space you have allocated, but there might not be enough free space to install and upgrade. Mojave will have multiple volumes and Catalina will have more than than Mojave. It might work, but it is equally likely to lead to future difficulties.

As I recall, without going back and rereading over 100 posts, Artie and I, both talked about putting Sierra on an external drive (in fact I was under the impression you already had a Sierra clone on an external drive which would take care of that handily) and if you are going to Catalina then you have no reason for installing Mojave and vice-versa. I understand your reticence, but you are allowing it to over-complicate things which will inevitably create unnecessary problems. The best plan is to KEEP IT SIMPLE.
OK. Yes, I have Sierra on an external drive which I guess I am supposed to erase and use again because maybe it's in a million pieces from what I've read here.

I guess I will call up Disk Utility and erase my partitions for Mojave and Catalina and just install a new O.S. when I am ready. It will incorporate the stuff I have on Sierra which is what I want to keep it simple. Though I know I will lose some of my ad blocking apps.

Thank you.


Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I actually have 8 GB ram.

Which is ample for Catalina given your uses of the computer.

Originally Posted By: plantsower
When I went checking to make sure I saw my Flash Drive and got a scare. I usually only use a tiny bit but now it says something different. See? Flash Storage

Or is that just because I divided it up for future OS's? I haven't reconfigured it yet because I don't want to think again about how to do it. frown

It is just because you divided it up for future OS's, but in my opinion you are right to be concerned about the lack of free overhead in your MACINTOSH HD partition. Your Flash Drive (a.k.a. SSD or NVMe) realistically does not have sufficient capacity for three operating systems. Technically they can all run in the space you have allocated, but there might not be enough free space to install and upgrade. Mojave will have multiple volumes and Catalina will have more than than Mojave. It might work, but it is equally likely to lead to future difficulties.

As I recall, without going back and rereading over 100 posts, Artie and I, both talked about putting Sierra on an external drive (in fact I was under the impression you already had a Sierra clone on an external drive which would take care of that handily) and if you are going to Catalina then you have no reason for installing Mojave and vice-versa. I understand your reticence, but you are allowing it to over-complicate things which will inevitably create unnecessary problems. The best plan is to KEEP IT SIMPLE.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/24/20 12:43 PM
Believe it or not I woke up this morning at 4:00 AM worried you might do something to get into trouble.

Originally Posted By: plantsower
OK. Yes, I have Sierra on an external drive which I guess I am supposed to erase and use again because maybe it's in a million pieces from what I've read here.


IMMEDIATELY IF NOT SOONER AND BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE...
  1. use Disk Utility to erase and partition your external HD to a single partition (GUID partiton scheme, Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
  2. Verify you are running the latest version of Carbon Copy Cloner by going to Carbon Copy Cloner > Check For Updates
  3. Clone MACINTOSH HD to your external HD
  4. Control+Click on your external HD and select Rename from the drop down menu
  5. Rename the external HD Sierra Clone to prevent confusion
  6. in System Preferences > Startup Drive select Sierra Clone and reboot (NOTE: it will take a lot longer because your external drive is a LOT slower than your flash drive.)
  7. Run from the external drive for several hours — even a day or two — to be sure the clone is good
  8. in System Preferences > Startup Drive select MACINTOSH HD and reboot
  9. In order to keep your two drives synchronized clone MACINTOSH HD to Sierra Clone every day (you can automate that in CCC).

Originally Posted By: plantsower
I guess I will call up Disk Utility and erase my partitions for Mojave and Catalina and just install a new O.S. when I am ready. It will incorporate the stuff I have on Sierra which is what I want to keep it simple.

Getting rid of partitions is not always straight forward or easy because deleting a partition is not enough you have to expand another partition to encompass the newly freed up disk space and that can be tricky and can cause data loss. That is why I said to be sure you have a good clone first.

AN EASY WAY TO GET RID OF YOUR PARTITIONS ON YOUR flash drive assuming you have performed the previous steps:
  1. Boot from your Sierra Clone
  2. Launch Disk Utility and erase/repartition MACINTOSH HD to a single partiton (GUID partition scheme, Mac OS Extended (Journaled) format)
  3. Launch Crbon Copy Cloner and Clone Sierra Clone to MACINTOSH HD
  4. In System Preferences > Startup Drive choose MACINTOSH HD as the startup drive and Reboot.

Originally Posted By: plantsower
Though I know I will lose some of my ad blocking apps.

Lose some gain more. I have gotten rid of all but WIPR with no increase in annoying adds but major improvement in site specific control within Safari/Safari Technology Preview itself. I haven't lost any functionality I needed or wanted just adjusted to new controls.

NOTE: Please don't make assumptions and/or bypass any of these steps. Print them out and check them off as you do each one just to be sure you don't miss something.
Wow, I am so sorry you woke up at 4 a.m. worried. It was probably warranted. LOL! But thanks. So sorry.

Today is not a good day to do this but soon. I don't understand all the directions completely, but hopefully as I bumble along on each step, it will become clear.

BTW, I use SuperDuper.

Just to clarify steps 6 thru 8:

6. Click on my Sierra clone and reboot (restart the computer after I enter Sierra Clone)?

7. Run for several hours, etc. Got it.

8. Select Mac HD from Start up Disk and reboot. (Restart?). After I run Sierra Clone for several hours (or a day) and then remove Ext. HD, first? I don't normally have to pick a startup disk after I remove my Ext. Drive. But, maybe this is a special situation?

*******

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Believe it or not I woke up this morning at 4:00 AM worried you might do something to get into trouble.

Originally Posted By: plantsower
OK. Yes, I have Sierra on an external drive which I guess I am supposed to erase and use again because maybe it's in a million pieces from what I've read here.


IMMEDIATELY IF NOT SOONER AND BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE...
  1. use Disk Utility to erase and partition your external HD to a single partition (GUID partiton scheme, Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
  2. Verify you are running the latest version of Carbon Copy Cloner by going to Carbon Copy Cloner > Check For Updates
  3. Clone MACINTOSH HD to your external HD
  4. Control+Click on your external HD and select Rename from the drop down menu
  5. Rename the external HD Sierra Clone to prevent confusion
  6. in System Preferences > Startup Drive select Sierra Clone and reboot (NOTE: it will take a lot longer because your external drive is a LOT slower than your flash drive.)
  7. Run from the external drive for several hours — even a day or two — to be sure the clone is good
  8. in System Preferences > Startup Drive select MACINTOSH HD and reboot
  9. In order to keep your two drives synchronized clone MACINTOSH HD to Sierra Clone every day (you can automate that in CCC).

Originally Posted By: plantsower
I guess I will call up Disk Utility and erase my partitions for Mojave and Catalina and just install a new O.S. when I am ready. It will incorporate the stuff I have on Sierra which is what I want to keep it simple.

Getting rid of partitions is not always straight forward or easy because deleting a partition is not enough you have to expand another partition to encompass the newly freed up disk space and that can be tricky and can cause data loss. That is why I said to be sure you have a good clone first.

AN EASY WAY TO GET RID OF YOUR PARTITIONS ON YOUR flash drive assuming you have performed the previous steps:
  1. Boot from your Sierra Clone
  2. Launch Disk Utility and erase/repartition MACINTOSH HD to a single partiton (GUID partition scheme, Mac OS Extended (Journaled) format)
  3. Launch Crbon Copy Cloner and Clone Sierra Clone to MACINTOSH HD
  4. In System Preferences > Startup Drive choose MACINTOSH HD as the startup drive and Reboot.

Originally Posted By: plantsower
Though I know I will lose some of my ad blocking apps.

Lose some gain more. I have gotten rid of all but WIPR with no increase in annoying adds but major improvement in site specific control within Safari/Safari Technology Preview itself. I haven't lost any functionality I needed or wanted just adjusted to new controls.

NOTE: Please don't make assumptions and/or bypass any of these steps. Print them out and check them off as you do each one just to be sure you don't miss something.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/24/20 08:55 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Wow, I am so sorry you woke up at 4 a.m. worried. It was probably warranted. LOL! But thanks. So sorry.

Today is not a good day to do this but soon. I don't understand all the directions completely, but hopefully as I bumble along on each step, it will become clear.

BTW, I use SuperDuper.

Not to worry, I needed to get up anyway, 😄

I quit using SuperDuper because it did not handle the Recovery Drive properly, if at all and Carbon Copy Cloner did at the time. I have no current experience with SuperDuper but as I recall it works essentially the same way CCC does but with a different UI and I would imagine they have caught up with CCC in regards to handling the multitudinous volumes used in Mojave and Catalina.

Originally Posted By: plantsower
Just to clarify steps 6 thru 8:

6. Click on my Sierra clone and reboot (restart the computer after I enter Sierra Clone)?

See screenshot here

Originally Posted By: plantsower
7. Run for several hours, etc. Got it.

8. Select Mac HD from Start up Disk and reboot. (Restart?). After I run Sierra Clone for several hours (or a day) and then remove Ext. HD, first? I don't normally have to pick a startup disk after I remove my Ext. Drive. But, maybe this is a special situation?

The boot drive is stored in the system so every time you boot it will attempt to find and start from Sierra Clone unless you tell the system otherwise. If it does not find the selected startup drive it then searches for any other drive that has a bootable volume. Resetting startup drive will save some time every time you startup your computer not to mention eliminating any confusion if your external drive happens to be attached when your boot/reboot. NOTE: if you are going to be cloning every day, and you should if you do not use Time Machine, why go to the trouble of mounting and dismounting the external drive daily? Why not just leave it connected?
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/25/20 07:01 AM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Though I know I will lose some of my ad blocking apps.

Lose some gain more. I have gotten rid of all but WIPR with no increase in annoying adds but major improvement in site specific control within Safari/Safari Technology Preview itself. I haven't lost any functionality I needed or wanted just adjusted to new controls.

You won't necessarily lose any of your blocking extensions, because they may have been replaced by apps available from the App Store, although their functionality won't necessarily be identical.

For what it's worth, I lost AdBlock for Safari to decreased functionality and greed, but I replaced it with Wipr a few months ago after reading that joemike used it, and I'm thoroughly pleased with it.

I also use Roadblock because of its unique ability to block ANY HTML element in a web page.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/25/20 07:08 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
8. Select Mac HD from Start up Disk and reboot. (Restart?). After I run Sierra Clone for several hours (or a day) and then remove Ext. HD, first? I don't normally have to pick a startup disk after I remove my Ext. Drive. But, maybe this is a special situation?

You can't remove your external before you reboot/restart, because it's the volume into which you're booted.

You've got to wait until you restart into your internal SSD, and the best way to get there is by setting it as your startup disc in System Prefs > Startup Disc.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/25/20 07:15 AM
The only thing with which I differ is Rita's leaving her external HDD as a single partition.

In one of her other threads I suggested that since it's so big, 1 TB compared to her 120 GB internal SSD, she make 5 x 100 GB partitions and 1 x 500 GB partition.

That will leave her space to potentially back up five different OSs in the small partitions plus run Time Machine or do whatever else comes up in the big one.

Someday.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/25/20 12:18 PM
Originally Posted By: artie505
The only thing with which I differ is Rita's leaving her external HDD as a single partition.

In one of her other threads I suggested that since it's so big, 1 TB compared to her 120 GB internal SSD, she make 5 x 100 GB partitions and 1 x 500 GB partition.

That will leave her space to potentially back up five different OSs in the small partitions plus run Time Machine or do whatever else comes up in the big one.

Someday.

No argument, but given Rita's penchant for overthinking, I thought it better to keep it as simple as possible with fewer options to create possible confusion on her part. I would hope that eventually she would be willing to give up Sierra and then the external drive could be completely devoted to Time Machine as it should be.
I guess what is confusing me is why I can't just detach my external drive like I always do when I'm done with it and go into my OS on my internal drive minus the external drive being attached. I don't want to have to tell my Mac which drive to go into every time. Besides, there will only be one OS (Catalina or the next one) on my internal drive anyway. I've decided not to put more than one OS on my SSD as you've suggested. Plus, I have found that once I relegate an older OS to my external drive, I rarely go there again. Of course, I would be putting my new OS on the external drive, also. I need to keep this really, really simple as I do now. I honestly don't feel the need to back up everyday. There is nothing that important on my Mac that I need to do this and really don't want to.

If I were using a desktop computer it would be a simple thing to keep my external drive connected. I only have a laptop which I actually use on my lap. It's too awkward to keep the external drive connected because of logistics and it's short cable. It has come out of the USB port more than once because I had the audacity to move in my chair. smirk

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Wow, I am so sorry you woke up at 4 a.m. worried. It was probably warranted. LOL! But thanks. So sorry.

Today is not a good day to do this but soon. I don't understand all the directions completely, but hopefully as I bumble along on each step, it will become clear.

BTW, I use SuperDuper.

Not to worry, I needed to get up anyway, 😄

I quit using SuperDuper because it did not handle the Recovery Drive properly, if at all and Carbon Copy Cloner did at the time. I have no current experience with SuperDuper but as I recall it works essentially the same way CCC does but with a different UI and I would imagine they have caught up with CCC in regards to handling the multitudinous volumes used in Mojave and Catalina.

Originally Posted By: plantsower
Just to clarify steps 6 thru 8:

6. Click on my Sierra clone and reboot (restart the computer after I enter Sierra Clone)?

See screenshot here

Originally Posted By: plantsower
7. Run for several hours, etc. Got it.

8. Select Mac HD from Start up Disk and reboot. (Restart?). After I run Sierra Clone for several hours (or a day) and then remove Ext. HD, first? I don't normally have to pick a startup disk after I remove my Ext. Drive. But, maybe this is a special situation?

The boot drive is stored in the system so every time you boot it will attempt to find and start from Sierra Clone unless you tell the system otherwise. If it does not find the selected startup drive it then searches for any other drive that has a bootable volume. Resetting startup drive will save some time every time you startup your computer not to mention eliminating any confusion if your external drive happens to be attached when your boot/reboot. NOTE: if you are going to be cloning every day, and you should if you do not use Time Machine, why go to the trouble of mounting and dismounting the external drive daily? Why not just leave it connected?
I have Wipr too but find I have to disable it on a lot of sites because it causes me problems. Same with Ghostery. And I'm too cheap to pay for Roadblock. smile


Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Though I know I will lose some of my ad blocking apps.

Lose some gain more. I have gotten rid of all but WIPR with no increase in annoying adds but major improvement in site specific control within Safari/Safari Technology Preview itself. I haven't lost any functionality I needed or wanted just adjusted to new controls.

You won't necessarily lose any of your blocking extensions, because they may have been replaced by apps available from the App Store, although their functionality won't necessarily be identical.

For what it's worth, I lost AdBlock for Safari to decreased functionality and greed, but I replaced it with Wipr a few months ago after reading that joemike used it, and I'm thoroughly pleased with it.

I also use Roadblock because of its unique ability to block ANY HTML element in a web page.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/25/20 04:06 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I guess what is confusing me is why I can't just detach my external drive like I always do when I'm done with it and go into my OS on my internal drive minus the external drive being attached. I don't want to have to tell my Mac which drive to go into every time. Besides, there will only be one OS (Catalina or the next one) on my internal drive anyway. I've decided not to put more than one OS on my SSD as you've suggested. Plus, I have found that once I relegate an older OS to my external drive, I rarely go there again. Of course, I would be putting my new OS on the external drive, also. I need to keep this really, really simple as I do now. I honestly don't feel the need to back up everyday. There is nothing that important on my Mac that I need to do this and really don't want to.

If I were using a desktop computer it would be a simple thing to keep my external drive connected. I only have a laptop which I actually use on my lap. It's too awkward to keep the external drive connected because of logistics and it's short cable. It has come out of the USB port more than once because I had the audacity to move in my chair. smirk

Just consider this a special case in this specific instance of "cleaning up" both your flash drive and external HD.

Once you have completed the task of cleaning up the partioning on both your drives you can
  1. Power your Mac down completely
  2. Disconnect the external drive
  3. boot from the Recovery drive...
    1. Be sure your MacBook is plugged in
    2. press the power button
    3. press and hold Option+Command+R (⌥⌘R) until you see the Apple logo
    4. at the prompt select your user account and enter the password
    5. if prompted enter the password for your WiFi network
  4. Select the option to install/reinstall the latest version of MacOS (Catalina)
...and all your settings, data, and applications will be intact (albeit some apps may not run). Clean, simple, and as easy as it gets
OK, thank you!

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I guess what is confusing me is why I can't just detach my external drive like I always do when I'm done with it and go into my OS on my internal drive minus the external drive being attached. I don't want to have to tell my Mac which drive to go into every time. Besides, there will only be one OS (Catalina or the next one) on my internal drive anyway. I've decided not to put more than one OS on my SSD as you've suggested. Plus, I have found that once I relegate an older OS to my external drive, I rarely go there again. Of course, I would be putting my new OS on the external drive, also. I need to keep this really, really simple as I do now. I honestly don't feel the need to back up everyday. There is nothing that important on my Mac that I need to do this and really don't want to.

If I were using a desktop computer it would be a simple thing to keep my external drive connected. I only have a laptop which I actually use on my lap. It's too awkward to keep the external drive connected because of logistics and it's short cable. It has come out of the USB port more than once because I had the audacity to move in my chair. smirk

Just consider this a special case in this specific instance of "cleaning up" both your flash drive and external HD.

Once you have completed the task of cleaning up the partioning on both your drives you can
  1. Power your Mac down completely
  2. Disconnect the external drive
  3. boot from the Recovery drive...
    1. Be sure your MacBook is plugged in
    2. press the power button
    3. press and hold Option+Command+R (⌥⌘R) until you see the Apple logo
    4. at the prompt select your user account and enter the password
    5. if prompted enter the password for your WiFi network
  4. Select the option to install/reinstall the latest version of MacOS (Catalina)
...and all your settings, data, and applications will be intact (albeit some apps may not run). Clean, simple, and as easy as it gets
Usually I click on the extended HD items when I want to remove it, and when given the choice to eject all, I click that and then remove the external drive. I don't have to reboot anything. Never have. It always works.



Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: plantsower
8. Select Mac HD from Start up Disk and reboot. (Restart?). After I run Sierra Clone for several hours (or a day) and then remove Ext. HD, first? I don't normally have to pick a startup disk after I remove my Ext. Drive. But, maybe this is a special situation?

You can't remove your external before you reboot/restart, because it's the volume into which you're booted.

You've got to wait until you restart into your internal SSD, and the best way to get there is by setting it as your startup disc in System Prefs > Startup Disc.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/25/20 07:53 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Usually I click on the extended HD items when I want to remove it, and when given the choice to eject all, I click that and then remove the external drive. I don't have to reboot anything. Never have. It always works.

That is the proper way to disconnect an external drive, but in this case there are other things going on. If nothing else just put it down to my personal sense of computer propriety 😉
OK. Thanks.


Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Usually I click on the extended HD items when I want to remove it, and when given the choice to eject all, I click that and then remove the external drive. I don't have to reboot anything. Never have. It always works.

That is the proper way to disconnect an external drive, but in this case there are other things going on. If nothing else just put it down to my personal sense of computer propriety 😉
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/26/20 06:40 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I have Wipr too but find I have to disable it on a lot of sites because it causes me problems. Same with Ghostery. And I'm too cheap to pay for Roadblock. smile

Neither Wipr nor Ghostery is causing your problems; it's just that websites have become more sophisticated and better able to pick up on ad blockers - no matter which variety - and block them.

If you've got the little gear wheel guy in your Safari menu bar you can uncheck the "Enable content blockers box" on a website by website basis to whitelist particular sites, and if you haven't got it, it's because your Safari is too far behind the times.

I caught Roadblock for 1/2 price around X-mas, but its functionality is so important to me that I'd have paid full price. As far as I've been able to tell, it's unique.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/26/20 06:49 AM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
The only thing with which I differ is Rita's leaving her external HDD as a single partition.

In one of her other threads I suggested that since it's so big, 1 TB compared to her 120 GB internal SSD, she make 5 x 100 GB partitions and 1 x 500 GB partition.

That will leave her space to potentially back up five different OSs in the small partitions plus run Time Machine or do whatever else comes up in the big one.

No argument, but given Rita's penchant for overthinking, I thought it better to keep it as simple as possible with fewer options to create possible confusion on her part. I would hope that eventually she would be willing to give up Sierra and then the external drive could be completely devoted to Time Machine as it should be.

I think that under any circumstances, Rita's external should have no less than two partitions: one, because Rita should have a clone, no matter how far behind the times it is, and a second for potential Time Machine or other use.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/26/20 07:03 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
OK. Thanks.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Usually I click on the extended HD items when I want to remove it, and when given the choice to eject all, I click that and then remove the external drive. I don't have to reboot anything. Never have. It always works.

That is the proper way to disconnect an external drive, but in this case there are other things going on. If nothing else just put it down to my personal sense of computer propriety 😉

Clarification: You're usually booted into your internal SSD, so you can eject your external HDD with no issues.

In this instance, though, you'll be booted into your external, and you CAN'T eject the drive/volume into which you're booted.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/26/20 12:37 PM
Originally Posted By: artie505
I think that under any circumstances, Rita's external should have no less than two partitions: one, because Rita should have a clone, no matter how far behind the times it is, and a second for potential Time Machine or other use.

I won't argue with you but it goes against my grain to use partitions. I wish it were possible to use APFS volumes instead of Partitions, but Time Machine rules that out.

How about a 128GB partition for the clone and the rest of the drive for a future Time Machine backup?
Posted By: artie505 Re: Changing Mail View Options permanently - 05/26/20 02:54 PM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
I think that under any circumstances, Rita's external should have no less than two partitions: one, because Rita should have a clone, no matter how far behind the times it is, and a second for potential Time Machine or other use.

I won't argue with you but it goes against my grain to use partitions. I wish it were possible to use APFS volumes instead of Partitions, but Time Machine rules that out.

How about a 128GB partition for the clone and the rest of the drive for a future Time Machine backup?

That works. Since Rita's got a 1 TB external drive and only a 120 GB internal, there's no way she'll ever run out of space in either partition. (And I doubt that there's any way she'll ever run Time Machine, anyhow.)

The possibility of running out of space in a partition, which is, correctly, at the root of your dislike of partitions, isn't in play in this instance.
That's just what I meant. The websites don't work if they are enabled.

Neither Wipr nor Ghostery is causing your problems; it's just that websites have become more sophisticated and better able to pick up on ad blockers - no matter which variety - and block them.

Yes, I use the gear box from time to time. Thanks.


If you've got the little gear wheel guy in your Safari menu bar you can uncheck the "Enable content blockers box" on a website by website basis to whitelist particular sites, and if you haven't got it, it's because your Safari is too far behind the times.

I caught Roadblock for 1/2 price around X-mas, but its functionality is so important to me that I'd have paid full price. As far as I've been able to tell, it's unique. [/quote]
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