My laptop station is in the living room. It feeds off the router from the main imac in the other room in the house via a router and file sharing.



Usually things come up fine on the internet, but sometimes, sites just are too slow, they wont upload. Why is this? is there anything one can do? thanks!

Try a utility like AirRadar, MacStumbler, or WiFi Scanner (free from App Store) to check your signal strength and signal to noise ratio in each of the rooms. Odds are you will find either the signal strength in the living room is significantly reduced or the signal to noise ration is greatly increased. You might even find there is significant interference in the living room from other networks in the area, fluorescent lights, cordless telephones, microwave ovens, etc.

WiFi signals can be greatly attenuated (reduced in strength) by the presence of furniture (overstuffed chairs and couches are notorious), wall structure (the thicker the wall the more the attenuation), even your own body. They are also effected by the location of the router both in the room and in relation to the furniture in the room.

There are things you can try to mitigate the problem:

1. If you are creating the network using the Airport in your iMac, get an Airport Extreme Base Station or an Airport Express and use it to create the network instead. Either will produce a much stronger signal than your iMac can.
2. Relocate the WiFi router
   1. Six or seven feet high on the wall is often considered optimum
   2. Putting the router on the wall closes to the living room would help
3. Relocate where you place the laptop in the living room.
4. Re-arrange the furniture to remove barriers to the signal between the location of the WiFi router and your laptop
5. If there is evidence of interference from other networks in the area, try choosing a WiFi band as far as possible from the band used by the other networks.
6. If all else fails, put a repeater in the living room to boost the signal from the router. — I generally use an Airport Express for this specific purpose.

Great post Joe, let me digest some of this and report back. I cannot move the laptop, it's a fixed new work station... but I'll read other ideas thanks.

Joe, I think wifi scanner is $20. no?

macstumbler seems to be beta.

Between the three is there a favorite?

This is one of those choices that falls into the category of personal taste and priorities than any technical reasoning. I found AirRadar when it first came out and liked it. It is informative, and has an easily understood interface. I continue to use it because I have never found any reason to change.

MacStumbler has been around for a long time and many people swear by it and I have never heard anyone swear at it. The Beta is MacStumbler 2. There is another product out there called iStumbler. There is an interesting discussion comparing iStumbler and MacStumbler here.

WiFi Scanner is new to me. I just found it in the App Store and installed it on a friend's computer. Personally I find that while it displays the same basic data as the others it takes me more effort to comprehend what it is saying.

Again, it is a matter of personal taste and priorities.

Joe, cool. Air radar did work the best.
73% on imac
33% on laptop

Airport extreme is $180
Airport express is $100 (thats a repeater?)

Is all greek to me now but I can go to an Apple store down the block. It's a pity to have to spend for this but...

I wouldn't want to chose another network, what a neighbor?

How do you know of interference?

currently I have a netgear router, dsl is going into it.

Either the Airport Extreme or the Airport Express can join and extend an existing wireless network. In my experience the Airport Extreme has a stronger signal, but because of the cost differential, I always use an Airport Express to extend a network.

It was greek to me the first time I set up a network but although the terminology may be confusing, it is not rocket science. With WiFi you are dealing with radian frequencies that are high enough to become really squirely. They work and they do amazing things but some of those amazing things are not necessarily what you want and the variables effecting them are almost infinite. As a result, sometimes it does require investing in devices to extend the network. It is the not the fault of the manufacturers, rather it is physics that must shoulder the blame.


Check the signal to noise ratio and look for neighboring networks on the same or adjoining channels. Channels in the 2.4 GHz band (channels 1-13) slightly overlap so if you are on channel 7 signals from channels 6, 7, or 8 can cause interference with your signal.

Some suggestions for setting up a repeater:

• If at all possible, the repeater (Airport Express or whatever) should be placed six feet or so above the floor to get it above most structure and/or furniture that might attenuate its signal.
• In your case I would try to locate it in the living room on the wall closests to the Netgear Router that is creating the network. If there is another room between the living room and the room where the Netgear is located the best location for the repeater might be in the intervening room.
• Configure the AE to "Extend a wireless network" NOT "Participate in a WDS network".

thanks Joe, great info as usual.

Air Radar -- does not say signal to noise ratio. It says signal, and then noise.
Noise is at 0%.

So maybe I don't need the Extreme base then? just an extender?
Unfortunately the imac and the laptop are at fixed stations and there are heavy walls between - although only really 30 ft apart.

I'll probably get AE and test.

Ah, the noise just jumped to 19%. now back to 5%. I'm on channel 11. Still not much you can do about noise correct? There are no other networks to join, but mine right?

Last bit. I walked the laptop 30% over to the imac next to the router. It's showing a higher percentage than the imac. Went to 75% while the imac is at 65%. is that odd?

The Airport Extreme Base Station would be overkill. The less expensive Airport Express should be all you need. It is almost certainly the heavy walls that are attenuating your signal so in this case the physical distance is relatively immaterial.

There is some device in your home or in the area that is creating the noise you are seeing. Cordless phones, microwave ovens, fluorescent lights, electric motors, etc. are all electrical noise generators. Of course most of these are beyond your control.

Your results are not odd. It all has to do with the location and orientation of the antenna in each device. Often a difference of several inches can make a significant difference in received signal strength. It is the nature of the beast.

ok, Joe, will try the AE.
I do have 6 cordless phones in the apartment.
So more noise, the worse the signal rate? Noise usually says 0, but sometimes goes to 10 -20%

It's odd the signal rate would not be 90 -100% no? even when the noise is zero?

It never seems to go above 75, 80% tops, even with zero noise displayed.

you could buy a refurb Express and save yourself a few dollars, as well.

at the apple store Roger?

yes. here's one:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/FB321LL/A

$69

Thanks Rog, you think $30 is worth new?
also, wonder if one can return this to the Apple store if need be.

Apple factory refurbished equipment carries the same warranty is factor new.

I've bought plenty of stuff refurbished from Apple and have never been disappointed. You would not know it wasn't brand new except it doesn't have the technology from 10 minutes ago.....and, as joemike said, the warranty is the same as for new.

Will do guys, thanks. How does AE work. I just plug it into the other room that the weak laptop is, and it extends the signal from the router automatically?

Not quite. You have to configure it using Apple's Airport Utility that is found in /Applications/Utilities. You have to specify the network it is to join along with the network password and what you want it to do when it joins the network (Extend the network).

Thanks Joe, set it on the desktop or laptop, or does not matter?

You are setting the firmware in the Airport Express. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever which machine you run Airport Utility on. There is one caveat which is Airport Utility allows you to save the setup for any and all Airport devices in a file on the computer you are running Airport Utility from. To expert or import a configuration file

1. Open Airport Utility
2. Select the device you want to save the configuration file from
3. Click on "Manual Setup"
4. On the menu bar go to FIle > Export Configuration File

I like to look at it as a good way to get free applecare, especially if you're a little leery of buying a refurb.

Joe, got the AE, just wiped out.

I have it plugged in with amber blinking in the other room.

I got airport utility set up manually, to extend network. did all security stuff etc and just wont connect.
Lot updating and tinkering.

Now it just says it's unable to find any airport wireless devices.
Manual setup is greyed out. Everything is greyed out.

I assume I'm not supposed to run a 30' Ethernet cord from one room to another correct?

The airport is plugged in just one room away. Totally lost.

I have occasionally had problems with Airport Utility "seeing" the device to be configured. In those cases one of the following will generally fix the problem. In no particular order:

1. Using a paperclip to force the AE into a factory reset by holding the reset button in until the light flashes rapidly. (The AE has to be plugged in)
2. Rebooting the computer you are are running Airport Utility on
3. Use the Mac that is physically closest to the AE for the configuration
4. Temporarily move the AE into the room where the router is located in order to set it up. Once it is setup you can move in either into the Living room or if there is an intervening room between the router room and living room putting it in the intervening room.

ok Joe,
got it going.
i have it plugged in next to the laptop with a solid green light. Air radar has the imac at 80% and the laptop at 40%.

I unplugg AE and it still at 40%, hence it's not working or helping?

btw, how get rid of those loud beep sounds air raidar makes. thanks again.

• Both devices are showing up in AirRadar?
• Are both devices showing up with the same network identifier:
• Are both devices showing the same channel assignment?
• Have you rebooted your laptop?
• Is your AE configured to "Extend the Network"?

AirRadar > Preferences > General and uncheck the box labeled "Play Sound after each scan"

Joe,
thanks, it was on join wireless, so I went back, clicked manual and chose extend.

I don't understand what you mean by devices and where to look for devices. With air radar I've been looking at the network, not devices.

Anyway, Now it wont scan, or find any network. I rebooted both computers, and did the reset again. Not easy resetting btw, with the paper clip, but I did it.

But it still cannot find any network. So I'm two steps back again. Real grueling, but I appreciate this, good thread.

NEvermind, now it's back in action.

Nope, it restarted and does not find anything.

Ok, did get it working again after 2 reboots and 2 resets.
It's on extend network.

Don't understand devices issue.

I'm only look at the AE utility on the imac.

says there is no dns servers or valid Ip address if that matters.
and it's on defualt passwords and settings.
says channel 5, wireless clients 1. I wonder that that means, maybe it does not see of help the laptop then?

Should I have the software - ae utility -- going on both devices?

Ok, Joe, I called Apple. They said the AE only work with Apple routers. I need to get a netgear extender or buy an Apple router.

Ok, I'm up and rolling with the Netgear extender. Thanks Joe for great tips. Netgear support though is just brutal to deal with... if their equipment fails one day, I'll buy the Apple router just for the easier support.

It's good to hear that you got things to work with a Netgear extender, but the claim that AE only works with Apple routers is new to me. Fwiw, I got one extending a Linksys router based WiFi network and it works just dandy. Likewise several others in these forums mentioned AEs extending non-Apple hardware based WiFi networks.

That's what the Apple tech guy said. He shut me down right away and said that. I tried on my own, posted here, then finally got Apple support on the phone.

I jumped gun with netgear. It's not working too well.

Air Radar has signal at 80% , but the "average" at only 30%.
I don't understand average column, but suffice it to say, the connection is no better than without the netgear extender.

That said, the Netgear has created a 2nd network, with a different name, which is not really extending from my original network. I'm confused what to do to be honest.

I'm going back and forth with Negear by email, which is something you do not want to do in this lifetime if you can avoid it.

Make sure that the computer is connecting to the extender, not to the router. If you connect to the router, the extender won't do you any good!

thanks tacit, yes it seems to be connecting to the extender.

But I'm stumped here:

I'm using air radar, great software.

You have signal, signal average, and signal max.

Signal and signal average are almost always the same number.

Now as I write this:

In main workstation with imac and original router, the reading says 74% for signal and 76% for the average.

In the other room with the extender and laptop (with the extender right next to the laptop, is says: 96% for signal and 52% for the average.

What does that mean???

The Apple techs statement that you cannot use an Airport Express to extend a non-Airport network is news to me. I have been unable to verify that independently but that does not mean it isn't true. However I will take a shot at explaining what you are seeing in AirRadar

1. Signal is the instaneous signal strength seen on the last scan
2. Signal Avg is the average signal strength over all the last n seconds. The scan interval and retention in seconds is configurable in AirRadar > Preferences > General
3. Signal Max is the peak signal strength seen in all the scans in the last n seconds
4. In both rooms you should be seeing readings for your base station and your repeater but I would expect them to have the same SSID and to be operating on the same channel. (Bear in mind I am using a Time Capsule and Airport Express so your results may be different

If you are seeing a significant variance between Signal and Signal Avg and have a low noise number I would suspect something on someone moving around in the space and interrupting the signal line of site between your computer and the network device you are connected to. An intervening human or animal body will attenuate a signal just as a wall will or heavy furniture will. Perhaps not as effectively as a sheet of lead or grounded melt wire screen but it will cause attenuation.

thanks Joe, no is one moving around here. That average on the extender is always much less that the normal signal number.

But what is the accurate number, the average then?

I'm still battling Netgear, just for fun, this is the last email in an email exchange of 30 or so emails.


It's pretty hairy:




Dear Kevs,

My name is Niño and I am following up your support case.

I have review your case responses with the previous engineers and I sincerely apologize for an incomplete steps you have requested them to provide. As of now the connection through the extender timed out with your laptop and the your iMAC in your office seems to be disconnected too. Honestly, I will say our possible option because I feel the inconvenience this had caused you, so here are the possibilities, first, I can verify with the things and steps given by the previous engineers who handle this case that evidently the extender is problematic unit partly a software failure or hardware itself is bad. The only way we can fix the software problem on the extender is by flashing a new firmware, however, it will be a problem because MAC OS have different file system that cannot recognize the firmware file to be downloaded so as a heads up we will have trouble again doing the firmware flash. As a work around, using Mozilla Firefox browser is applicable than using the Safari browser. If you want to try this I have included the step-by-step instructions below. Last option is to have the unit be replace from the store because as I suspect it is a hardware problem since the extender should have not behave like this and really hard to be setup. I regret to say but it contradicts what we marketed that this unit is universal and easy to setup as you are very well aware of. Perhaps having it replace will resolve the problem. Again, I sincerely apologize for all the trouble this had caused you. If you have additional questions please feel free to let me know.

To update the extender firmware:

Let us use your laptop.

1. I presume it is currently connected to KEVS network of your main WGR614v9 router.
2. Please open your browser I prefer you have Mozilla Firefox. If you can consider downloading it and I would greatly appreciate, otherwise, let us return the product to the store and have it replaced.
3. If you have Mozilla Firefox please open it and then go to the link below:

http://www.downloads.netgear.com/files/WN3000RP-V1.0.0.12_1.0.12.chk

4. Please save the file to the most convenient location on your laptop, I prefer just on the desktop location to easily find it later.
5. Once you are done downloading the file close the browser and let us turn off your Airport temporarily.

a. Click on the AirPort icon on at the top right side of your screen. It is the signal icon for your Wi-Fi. Then select Turn AirPort off.

6. Please reset the Extender once more.

a. Press the reset button on the back of your extender for 30 seconds.
b. Power off the extender for 10 seconds and turn it back on and wait till it is ready.

7. Using your laptop please connect an Ethernet cable to the back of the NETGEAR Extender.
8. Once connected please open Mozilla Firefox.
9. On the address bar please type http://www.mywifiextnet/cgi-bin/index.html and press return or enter key.
10. Please continue with the Extender Wizard and choose Firmware Upgrade under the Maintenance tab.
11. Please click on browse and locate the file you have save from step 3-4.
12. Please wait until the process finish updating the extender and please do not interrupt this process by any means.
13. Once the update is done. Press the reset button on the back of your extender for 30 seconds.
14. Power off the extender for 10 seconds and turn it back on.
15. Let us turn on the AirPort baco on.

a. please click the AirPort icon on the top right side of the screen, the W-Fi signal icon and then please select Turn AirPort on.

16. Once the AirPort is on. You should see again the default extender name SSID; NETGEAR_EXT. Please click on it and then connect or join the network. Since it is unsecured it should not ask for any password yet. There should a check mark beside the name SSID to indicate that the laptop is connected to the extender network.
17. Open again Mozilla Firefox and go to www.mywifiext.com or www.mywifiext.net
18. Please continue with the Extender Wizard and choose your router network name SSID; “KEVS” and click on continue.
19. On Step 3of the wizard process, please make sure your passphrase is type in correctly and continue and box is check for “Use the same security and passphrase as those for existing network.

Note if your KEVS network have WEP security please use the WEP key and type it on to the key1 box of the extender wizard page and nothing on the passphrase field. If it uses WPA type it to the passphrase field and continue.

20. Once the extender network is created, which will have the name SSID of KEVS_EXT please close all the windows.
21. Go to the AirPort icon again from the top right side and select KEVS_EXT and press connect it may not ask for a password anymore if it retains the previous connection to be save if it does use the same password you have with your KEN network.

If you have clarifications, it would be great if you can specify the step that you have trouble in case it did not work to determine our next action.

Once again I appreciate the opportunity to assist you. Please accept my apologies for all the inconvenience.

Sincerely,

Niño
Technical Support
NETGEAR, Inc.
http://support.netgear.com

***Please be aware that your case will auto-close after 7 days of inactivity***

Both numbers are "accurate", but one is instantaneous and the other is an average over time. When you launch AirRadar the initial set of readings you see should show Signal, Signal Avg, and Signal Max should be the same because there is only one reading to average. After that it could go either way. On my network all three readings are often the same or are within a point or two either way of one another. For example, at the moment from my iMac in the same room as the Time Capsule that is generating the network I am seeing


The second "Bailey (5GHz)" is the signal from the Airport Express repeater at the other end of the house.

Niño is obviously encouraging you to return your repeater to the store and although the firmware update seems reasonably doable — I would take his suggestion and get a new repeater.

thanks Joe,
well, isn't it weird though that the average on the netgear extender is always about 50% or the signal number -- always.

I don't mind returning, but it seems netgear -- they don't know what they are doing, and that's an easy out for him, but who knows.

Also, curious, if I got the Apple router, maybe it's so superior, it does not need an extender?

The 802.11 a/b/g/n protocols used for WiFi are IEEE standards and ratified by international agreements. So theoretically there should be little difference between various brands. However, there are differences in how the standards are implemented by the different manufacturers. For example Netgear and Linksys devices typically have two obvious external antennae while Apple Airport devices have smooth exteriors with no visible antennae. From what you have learned from the Apple tech there is apparently some difference in the protocols used for extending a network and this may be outside the purview of the standard. Depending on the age of your Netgear router (when it was designed and built not necessarily when you bought it) there may be differences in the protocols used. A preliminary standard for 802.11n was issued in 2007 and many manufacturers built devices to their interpretation of what the final standard would be. The final 802.11n standard was not adopted until 2009 and supposedly devices designed and built since then conform to this final standard. While devices built under the the proposed standard are generally compatible, the devil is in the details and more than a few compatibility issues arose during the interim period.

This is a long winded way of saying no one, least of all me, could guarantee your network would perform better using all Apple components. I have always used Apple in my networks because:

1. I was and I am an Apple stockholder and Apple stock has been very good to me financially so I support their products
2. I got started using Airport and have come to know it well
3. I have always had good results with Airport networks
4. On the theory that if it aint broke, don't fix it I have never had reason to try another vendor's product

thanks Joe,
well the apple router is about $190, lot more than Netgear, but if I change, I'll be happy to go to Apple for the customer service alone.

btw, curious, the netgear, they issue a new wifi name, instead of using the Kevs network, I use Kevs-netgear.

What's going on? Is this extending from kevs, or does the little extender with the two antennas have it's own independent network?

kind of confusing really.

pss,

and again the average, you have no idea why netgear extenders always, without exception, have average reading of 50% of signal. thanks JOe!

What does your graph tell you? If your average signal strength is 50% it should be bouncing up and down accordingly, reflecting some sort of local activity/interference/something.

(And you can't be specific about NETGEAR hardware without knowing what info other hardware generates under the same circumstances.)

update Joe, if still there:

Its now working again-- so I'll hold my breath.

Question:
the original router has 74% connection rate.

The laptop in other room without extender is 30%.

With extender it goes to 50%. (that the average speed. I'll go with that -- lowest speed listed)

Is that normal?

(still 50 from 30 is worth $70...)

but,I was thinking the extender would bump the laptop to the speed of the original. I guess not?

If you haven't done so already, you might want to check out NetSpot with your WiFi setup to see if it sheds more light on your observations.

I think you may be misinterpreting the Signal readings.
So there is no direct relationship between the Signal strength percentage as reported by AirRadar and other Wifi apps and network data rate or speed. The most direct effect on network speed is the version of the 802.11 protocol being used. If your connection is using..

• 802.11b the network data transfer rate is limited to 11 Mbps (note that is bits not Bytes).
• 802.11g networks can get up to 55 Mbps
• theoretically 802.11n can get up to 150 Mbps (but I would not hold my breath expecting that high a data rate).

There is an indirect effect of signal strength on network data rate however. A weak signal is more prone to transmission errors resulting in more frequent retransmission of network data packets to achieve data reliability.

If your Netgear router and repeater support it, try configuring them to create a 802.11n network. Any Mac made in the last four years is capable of 802.11n and theoretically 802.11n is capable of up to three times the data rate of 802.11g and twice the range. 802.11b/g operate only on the 2.4 GHz band but 802.11n can operate on either the 2.4 GHz or 5 GHz bands. Again if your Netgear equipment will support the 5 GHz band give that a try. In some cases the 5 GHz signal will punch through where the 2.4 GHz will not go or vice-versa.

thanks Joe/ A.
Wow, that just flew over my head. I am not conversant in any of it.

I took 30 emails to get it to work. I'm not touching it for a bit!

But if my main imac is at 75%, and the laptop in other room (with extender right next to it) is at 50%, that is not so bad?

(is would be 30% without an extender at all)

PS, today, on laptop in living room, computer with the new Netgear extender. I click on Google and it took minutes to load up -- so long.

But then a bit later, everything was surfing fine and fast.

is there something about that first surf? getting warmed up or something?

I, along with others, have commented in other posts that Internet speed varies for no apparent reason. In my case one computer is hard-wired--directly connected by Ethernet cable--to the router, and the page loading times will vary. I attribute this to "things" going on with my ISP or to hiccups in the entire World Wide Web.

What you are describing is most likely the result of external network load not anything you or the equipment in your house would or could have any effect on. In fact I encountered some slow response times on Google and another site yesterday.

Thanks guys, appreciate it. I seem to think this huge delay happens more on the laptop in the living room, but I'll keep an eye on it.. who knows!

If you are using Time Machine to backup your laptop check on the Time Machine icon on the menu bar when the slowdowns occur. It may be the slowdown is caused by the Time Machine backup process.

Time machine is only being used with the desktop imac.

You might want to check out an article in today's Globe and Mail:
Say bye to Wi-Fi, powerlines can juice your home network

It turns out that my post above wasn't exactly accurate, if not to say incorrect. While you may be able to 'extend' non-Apple WiFi networks ('A'} with an Airport Express ('B') using AirPort Utility, this doesn't necessarily mean that you'll get full functionality.

For instance, with regard to network extension, one way to check which base station you're actually connecting to is to Option-click the Airport icon in your Mac's menu bar. This will then show (in dimmed text) the SSID/MAC of the actual WiFi source below the (checked) name of the extended WiFi base station ('A'). This ID will likely NOT be that of the AE extending the network ('B'). However, such an AE will work to wirelessly connect printers and hard disks.

That said, it still appears to be possible to do a 'real' and fully functional extension of (certain) non-Apple WiFi networks with AEs, depending on the capabilities of the base stations involved. These capabilities may need to be enhanced with firmware upgrades to support such network extensions. I'll bring up some details in a new thread on the topic (Adding WDS to Linksys WRT300N v1.1), seeking more information about this.

JOE/ others.
things going good, one question. The laptop, the name is KEVS-EXT. But the laptop seems to default over to Kevs, which is the name of the main router. I don't know why Netgear had to make a new name for the extender. Any ideas on this? thanks.