Just bought a LaCie 500GB External HDD. Want to back up existing HDD.
I dragged my presented HDD to LaCie icon.It shows that it's in the LaCie but as an ALIAS. Does this means that if the set crashes
I will have no back-up even though it showed in the LaCie?
Just don't know too much do I?

I guess you are right, no backup. You need to clone your HD onto LaCie. I can recommend two mainstream utilities - SuperDuper! (reportedly copies all bits and pieces of files) and Carbon Copy Cloner. Both are shareware but worth every penny. I personally use SD. The links are:
CCC: www.bombich.com/software/ccc.html
SD: www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/SuperDuperDescription.html

Given you are using OS X 10.3 according to your signature you will not be able to use the current versions of either Super Duper or Carbon Copy Cloner. You will have to use Super Duper 2.1.4 or Carbon Copy Cloner 2.3 which are the last versions compatible with OS X 10.3.x

Good point!

macnerd10- thank you for responding.It is most appreciated.
-Stan

joemikeb-
Thank you for responding.
I hope Super Duper 2.1.4 is an easy set-up.
I am just a fountain of Mac knowledge.
-Stan

I have found all versions of SuperDuper to be very user-friendly. Just one caveat: Is the LaCie formatted correctly? It should be Mac OS Extended (journaled). You can check by doing a Get Info on it and, if it is necessary to change the format, use the Erase tab in Disk Utility to reformat the drive. It only takes a few seconds.

Jon-
Get Info tells me that FORMAT:Mac OS Extended. It does not say
journaled as you indicated.

You may have to reformat the drive with Disk Utility. Actually, you may not have to do this entirely. Launch DU, select the drive (actually, the indented icon) and click Enable Journaling.

If that's not successful, select the drive in the DU window and click the Erase tab. Select Mac OS Extended (journaled) from the popup menu and then click the Erase button. That will take care of it.

Journaling is a feature that you can toggle on or off at will without having to erase/reformat the drive. Cocktail, OnyX, and TinkerTool System can all toggle this feature on or off on any drive formatted Mac OS Extended. Just be sure you get a version of any of these utilities that is compatible with OS X 10.3. The latest versions are not compatible.

The ability to toggle journaling on and off from within Disk Utility was introduced in OS X 10.3, so no third-party utility is required.

> I dragged my presented HDD to LaCie icon.

You've gotten the facts, now here's the reason...

You cannot create a bootable backup with drag & drop, because the many invisible support files that are the underpinnings of OS X do not get copied as part of the d&d process.

Artie505-
Knowing the facts and the reasons makes understanding easier.

Would you know if these invisible support files are picked up with SuperDuper 2.1.4.?

-Stan

Yes, That is the point of using SuperDuper or CCC.

artie505-

Just noticed your Avatar…everybody wants to do it in reverse.

Thanx again.

-Stan

Cmd-Z kthxbai

Stan,

I am not clear about two things:

1. which LaCie 500 GB external drive you are working with. Does it connect with USB? USB and FireWire?
2. are you asking about backing up data you cannot afford to lose or making a bootable clone of your operating systems, applications, utilities, libraries, and user data?

Just curious, did you get a LaCie Rugged 500? I just bought one of those myself to replace my 250gb service drive.

> [...] everybody wants to do it in reverse.

Me included, but I was waiting on line for a beer when J.K. Rowling was taking care of business.

I'll try "Cmd-Z kthxbai;" maybe.... Just maybe.

(Happy to have been helpful. )

Dianne-
LaCie 500GB d2 Quadra (7200).It comes with FireWire 400 & 800 & eSata and USB cables.
I have it hooked up with FireWire 400 and USB…is that wrong?
Backing up data I can't afford to lose.
By bootable do you mean that if the computer crashes I can work from the LaCie?
-Stan

Virtual1-
LaCie 500GB d2 Quadra (7200).

If you mean you have firewire and USB connected at the same time that is wrong. Pick one or the other and preferably Firewire as it is the fastest connection. By bootable Dianne means if the hard drive crashes you could work from the LaCie.

joemikeb-
Do I have to do anything additional to be bootable?

Assuming

1. the external drive you clone to is correctly formatted Mac OS Extended (Journaled) -- Journaled preferred but not required and not case sensitive
2. You used a compatible version of SuperDuper or Carbon Copy Cloner to create the clone

In order to boot from the external drive you would need to be connected using Firewire then you could either

1. Reboot while holding down the Option key then select the external drive as the boot drive or
2. In System Preferences > Startup Disk select the external drive as the boot drive

Joemikeb-
correctly formatted Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
SuperDuper 2.1.4

System Preferences > Startup Disk select the external drive as the boot drive…external drive icon not shown as a choice.

• Are you connected only by firewire?
• Do you see the external drive in Disk Utility?
• In Disk Utility when you select the drive, not the volume on the drive (the drive is to top outdented icon). Is the Partition Map Scheme Apple Partition Map?

In the SuperDuper menu, there are options. One of them is "restart from target". This would definitely create a bootable disk and then it should show up in the system prefs. I always keep this option enabled.

Macnerd's is an excellent suggestion, which serves to make sure your clone can actually be booted from. After all, there's always the possibility of errors, and you don't want to find out when you need that clone.

I may actually be able to help here because I have experienced a similar morass in Panther and backing up to my LaCie. First of all, I will tell you what I have done many times when finding myself buried in these kinds of Panther problems. Back up your user folder on DVDs or an external drive or an ftp or anything. Make sure you have all your software installer disks and serial numbers on hand or you may have to copy the Application Support Folder out of the main Library Folder on your HD. Back up your email exactly according to the instructions under MacHelp. The instructions are very specific. Export bookmarks from your browser or find where they are stored with a search and go ahead and reformat the HD and remember to write zeros to it to completely wipe it out. There is just so much torture a human being should have to take before drastic action is needed.

The "Restore" disk, as far as I understand it's mysterious nature, is that it installs a bootable 9 as long as when you reformat in Disk Utility using the first install disk and choose a 9 partition as an option. You use it after everything else. Then you connect to Apple for all the updates, and they are big combo ones which take several restarts and then more downloads.

Since there is no Target Disk Mode in Panther, you put everything from your old user folders into your new system folders by hand and reinstall all your apps and put Mail back according to the instructions. Your server may re-download all the mail it still has on hand, so you will be ditching hundreds of copies.

Reformat the Lacie drive also by writing zeros. I use Silverlining software which came with the drive and am very happy with it.

Some of the Apple Apps for Panther, such as Flash, iTunes, and QT must be very specific version numbers. Especially iTunes, I have found only 7.7.1 works.

Good luck. You can do it. Pressing the erase button in Disk Utility takes nerves of steel. Eventually you will get back on your feet and get going again, and the whole computer will be faster.

Just to fill in a blank and correct an erroneous statement.

The Restore disc restores the system to the state that existed when the computer left the factory with all the OS versions and all the original apps including any bundled apps that came with the computer. Using the Restore disc will overwrite any and all standard application updates that have been installed as well as setting any bundled software back to the version that came with the computer. That original condition does NOT include or require a separate OS 9 partition.

Firewire Target Disk mode works perfectly in Panther and previous versions of OS X. It is a hardware/firmware function.

As far as I can tell the O.P. was not having any trouble with his boot drive, he was asking about making backups and clones, so I'm not sure why you're talking about wiping the drive and reinstalling.


One benefit in having a current, bootable clone as part of one's backup scheme is to avoid having to do the tedious hand backup, re-installation and subsequent updating that you describe. One can simply re-clone back to the start-up drive.


The Install/Restore discs that came with various Mac models function in slightly different fashions, so you need to be careful giving instructions. If you're installing from OS X discs which also include OS 9 or Classic, you need to check the box that says "Install OS 9 drivers" before installing if you wish OS 9 or Classic to be functional. Partitioning is optional, not necessary. However, the O.P. says he has a G4 AGP Graphics model, which shipped with OS 8.6 to OS 9.0, according to MacTracker, no OS X.


The G4 AGP Graphics can boot into Target Disk Mode and Panther certainly supports this (as did Jaguar - I don't know about earlier). In addition, Panther had a Setup Assistant in the Utilities folder that, like the later Migration Assistant, could help in transferring user data.

THANK YOU for all the corrections. This is the first time I actually had some familiarity with a problem. Also, the software that came with the LaCie drive is called SilverKEEPER, not Silverlining.



Never got it to work with my G4 Ti.



With a clean system to start, he can use Silverkeeper to make a bootable volume out of the backup drive. It asks you if you want to do that. He can then mirror the drives or schedule backups or updates using Silverkeeper.



Misunderstood, and misspoke when calling the checkbox to add os9 drivers as a partitioning scheme. But it must also set up some kind of invisible partition space, huh?



The setup assistant doesn't transfer most files, just sets up mail, internet, etc. I was told on the old forums that a Migration Assistant came with Panther, but as you said it only came with later systems.

I hope any inaccurate information is forgiven in this case. Trying to help. I still stand by my advise to start over clean, no matter how it is done, because if he clones a relic-heavy system with all kinds of old settings and prefs files and user folders, it will eventually catch up with him, IMHO. Even if he just loses some potential for the computer to run faster. And my opinion is humble.

Be that as it may, Firewire Target Disk mode is independent of the OS version and it does work on a G4 Ti.



Nope. OS X and OS 9.2 can happily coexist on the same partition (a.k.a. volume) and it is possible to boot from either OS. However, when OS 9 and OS X are on the same volume the Option Boot is not available and the only way to switch between the two OS versions is the Startup Disk preference pane in OS X and the Startup Disk control panel in OS 9. I almost forgot on a system that is set to boot into OS 9 a restart while holding down the X key should force a boot into OS X. My results with that trick were spotty however.

Thanks joemikeb. Obviously--The devil was in my details! My Apologies.

I have one other weird thought in rereading the original post. Dragging the icon to the external drive produced an alias. Would holding down the option key while dragging have worked? He then can option-drag his hard drive to the LaCie and make a copy of the whole drive and then reformat his internal drive, reinstall all system and app software from original disks, and move user stuff back to the new, clean system. If everything works well for a day or two and he feels confident about erasing the old drive stuff from the LaCie drive, he can then reformat LaCie and configure it as bootable. I like Silverkeeper to schedule backups, but I think he could mirror the drives in Disk Utility Raid setup.

I know that everyone thinks reformatting seems extreme when establishing a backup system, but it may be worth his while to have a clean backup of a clean drive. I have found great advantages in taking 6 hours or so to start from scratch even as often as every few months. I notice how much *debris* builds up in apps and the system and libraries as time goes on and the computer gets slower and slower. These can be cleaned with Onyx or Cocktail, but I always had problems afterward. Tricky stuff.

Now when he backs up, the whole system runs smoother, his apps are fresh installs and run better and there are LESS USELESS FILES to backup, so theoretically, the backup is completed faster.

Dragging and dropping the files, no matter what optional keystrokes are used will not copy the myriad of hidden folders and files essential for the functioning of OS X. It would also very likely miss many, perhaps most, if not all of the registration files used by the third party applications so all those would have to be reinstalled.

For all intents and purposes an Archive and Install results in the same system folder you would achieve by doing an erase and install. The only difference being the user files and settings are preserved. Optionally the third party applications are preserved as well or you could choose to take the time to re-install and re-update the third party applications. See the linked Apple Knowledge Base article for more information about this feature. Used with the proper precautions, the archive and install goes a long way toward eliminating the erase and install that was so commonly recommended in OS 9 and its predecessors.

FWIW, with upgrades and migrations from previous systems I haven't had a completely clean install in well over three years, and all my systems are clean, smooth running, while updates and upgrades install flawlessly.

I was just thinking on that, and I can think of some early exceptions. I know I owned a B&W G3 that wouldn't do it. And I know some of the first slot load imac g3's required their firmware update run to do it. And iirc there were some very early pmg4 that would not?

Jumping in here right at the end... need to do the same as original post

Need to have bootable clone from my iMac 24 to a WD 500Gb external set up with Firewire - Snow Leopard 10.6.1

Question: Are Carbon Copy Cloner and SuperDuper SL compliant? I could go off and spend hours chasing but the collective brainpower here is much quicker and I am way too lazy (unless of course there is panic...)

Cheers

Just stopped being lazy... off to Version Tracker

CCC says it is compliant with new doodads in SL

SD says noting about SL

Both have 10.5 as latest system capability

I shall have a go with CCC... if it is a stuff-up then a reformat of the external WD is all I am up for..

Cheers

From the SuperDuper site "Have no fear. SuperDuper v2.6.1 is here, and it's compatible with Snow Leopard!"
http://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/SuperDuperDescription.html

"Have no fear. SuperDuper v2.6.1 is here, and it's compatible with Snow Leopard!"

Well I have done it with CCC... all good... backed up 48 Gb in 27 min - love that FW 800

Tested with Option/Start and seems perfectly OK... WD 500 drive seems to be noticeably slower than the internal iMac drive... I suspect that it is a disk speed issue... don't care, got the job done

One other small difference is that there were a larger number of folders on the clone ... something like an extra three folders comprising an extra seven files... wonder what that is all about

Cheers

The extra folders are normal; I get them after cloning with SD. I don't remember the explanation but you don't have to worry about it.

Because the data transfer speed is slower with an external drive than an internal, overall performance may be slower. If the rotational speed is slower also, that's another factor.

Maybe that was with cloning a live filesystem? things like Network, home, etc

Used SD 2.6.1 once already (MacPro, SL 10.6). Afterwards, it started from the clone, of course (OWC 250 GB, Firewire). No problems. Then updated to 10.6.1. No problems either. Checked perms - same two SUID files modified and not touched, as on the original.
FYI, RicMac is correct because they looked at the versiontracker site. In fact, both apps state under system requirements that they are for 10.5. However, CCC description says it has been updated for SL, whereas the one for SD says nothing.
Versiotracker is notoriously behind the time; developers should pay close attention to what it says about their products.

> Versiotracker is notoriously behind the time; developers should pay close attention to what it says about their products.

Aren't the developers, themselves, responsible for their own content, in which case...?

I guess not, because on the SD site, all the SL info is in block letters, as Alternaut quoted. Or, maybe, an oversight...

I don't think typeface is the least bit indicative; I've consistently noticed that an app's description on its VT page is close to or identical with its descriptions on its developer's website.

Let's be realistic... It's most unlikely that VT has got anywhere near the resources it would take for its staff to be doing the updating themselves.