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Posted By: plantsower FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/08/22 05:30 AM
I'm not sure this is the correct forum, but I mentioned a few years ago that when I try to use FaceTime it states there is no camera available. I forget what the advice was back then, but it didn't work. Now I am wondering since my email problem was fixed by tossing a folder out of the library, I am wondering if there is some folder I can toss regarding the camera???
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 04:03 AM
OK, so no takers yet. How about this? I was looking here Fixing Camera Error on Mac OS. Rebooting does nothing. Under the heading: Force quit AppleCameraAssistant and VDCAssistant it uses terminal. I have been cautioned about terminal use here, so what do you think? Should I try it?
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 04:30 AM
Our version of Catalina hasn't got AppleCameraAssistant, but it has got VDCAssistant.

Launch Apps/Utilities/Activity Monitor > Memory and search for VDC. Select it, and hit the "X" in the top left corner to quit or, as necessary, force quit it. No need to get involved with Terminal.

Can't hurt...I guess...

I also guess that it would pay to restart afterwards.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 05:03 AM
I did what you said and "quit" VCD assistant. Nothing happened. I then Force Quit it and nothing happened. But I did get a weird message: Do you really want to quit “VDCAssistant”?The process “VDCAssistant” is owned by _cmiodalassistants. I restarted but it made no difference. I even went to my test account and still no camera access.




Originally Posted by artie505
Our version of Catalina hasn't got AppleCameraAssistant, but it has got VDCAssistant.

Launch Apps/Utilities/Activity Monitor > Memory and search for VDC. Select it, and hit the "X" in the top left corner to quit or, as necessary, force quit it. No need to get involved with Terminal.

Can't hurt...I guess...

I also guess that it would pay to restart afterwards.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 05:37 AM
Originally Posted by plantsower
I did what you said and "quit" VCD assistant. Nothing happened. I then Force Quit it and nothing happened. But I did get a weird message: Do you really want to quit “VDCAssistant”?The process “VDCAssistant” is owned by _cmiodalassistants. I restarted but it made no difference. I even went to my test account and still no camera access.
When you hit quit/force quit, the process should have disappeared and reappeared. If that didn't happen after you responded to the message with a "yes" or whatever the appropriate positive is, you'll have to go the Terminal route.

Copy & paste the VDC command, hit "return," and I again suggest a restart. (You'll be asked to enter your password, but you won't see any indication that it's been entered.)

The bit of searching I did suggests that quitting the process may be your answer.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 06:11 AM
When you hit quit/force quit, the process should have disappeared and reappeared. If that didn't happen after you responded to the message with a "yes" or whatever the appropriate positive is, you'll have to go the Terminal route. It did disappear and reappear. There was no way to respond to the question except click on quit or force quit which I did.

Copy & paste the VDC command, hit "return," and I again suggest a restart. I will try this tomorrow. (You'll be asked to enter your password, but you won't see any indication that it's been entered.)

The bit of searching I did suggests that quitting the process may be your answer. [/quote] I did quit but it didn't work or do you mean after entering the Terminal command? Anyway, I'll try the terminal command tomorrow. Time for bed.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 10:52 AM
I doubt that Terminal can accomplish anything that Activity Monitor couldn't, but I guess it can't hurt to try.

It looks like it's time to reset NVRAM as per your linked doc, though. (The doc sounds ominous, but I've never run into any problems after the many times I"ve done it.)
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 06:15 PM
Before I do that (it says I will lose all my preferences), what about finding a container in the library like we did for mail? That worked perfectly.


Originally Posted by artie505
I doubt that Terminal can accomplish anything that Activity Monitor couldn't, but I guess it can't hurt to try.

It looks like it's time to reset NVRAM as per your linked doc, though. (The doc sounds ominous, but I've never run into any problems after the many times I"ve done it.)
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Before I do that (it says I will lose all my preferences), what about finding a container in the library like we did for mail? That worked perfectly.


Originally Posted by artie505
I doubt that Terminal can accomplish anything that Activity Monitor couldn't, but I guess it can't hurt to try.

It looks like it's time to reset NVRAM as per your linked doc, though. (The doc sounds ominous, but I've never run into any problems after the many times I"ve done it.)
No such animal.

As I said, that "lose prefs caveat" is nowhere near as ominous as it sounds. They're just covering their butts. You aren't likely to have any issues afterwards.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 07:51 PM
Nope! One website said: There are camera settings that you can adjust within the application itself. With Skype and FaceTime, you can specify whether you want to use your build in camera or an external one. Make sure that you have selected the build in camera. I have no such setting in FaceTime. I'll keep looking. We have the same OS version. Does yours work?



Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by plantsower
Before I do that (it says I will lose all my preferences), what about finding a container in the library like we did for mail? That worked perfectly.


Originally Posted by artie505
I doubt that Terminal can accomplish anything that Activity Monitor couldn't, but I guess it can't hurt to try.

It looks like it's time to reset NVRAM as per your linked doc, though. (The doc sounds ominous, but I've never run into any problems after the many times I"ve done it.)
No such animal.

As I said, that "lose prefs caveat" is nowhere near as ominous as it sounds. They're just covering their butts. You aren't likely to have any issues afterwards.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 08:08 PM
Under system prefs, security/privacy, privacy, camera it lists apps allowed to access the camera. The only ones mentioned are Zoom and Quicktime with no other options to add an app. This is a free app to do that. Maybe I should try that if there's no other generic way to do that manually.

Add Apps to Camera Privacy
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 09:32 PM
Oops. I just clicked on the link below and it's not what I thought I put there. I'll have to find that page.
Originally Posted by plantsower
Under system prefs, security/privacy, privacy, camera it lists apps allowed to access the camera. The only ones mentioned are Zoom and Quicktime with no other options to add an app. This is a free app to do that. Maybe I should try that if there's no other generic way to do that manually.

Add Apps to Camera Privacy
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 09:53 PM
What about this terminal command? It's for Mojave but maybe it would work.

Terminal Command to reset Camera and Mic permissions
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 11:19 PM
The tccutil command is in the Darwin kernel and is still there in Monterey so it should work on your OS version as well. Note: everything in Terminal is case sensitive so TccUtil is not the same as tccutil. The safest option is to copy the command out of the article and paste it into Terminal and then press Return.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/09/22 11:26 PM
OK, thank you.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
The tccutil command is in the Darwin kernel and is still there in Monterey so it should work on your OS version as well. Note: everything in Terminal is case sensitive so TccUtil is not the same as tccutil. The safest option is to copy the command out of the article and paste it into Terminal and then press Return.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/10/22 03:59 AM
The terminal command tccutil reset Camera com.apple.Safari is for Safari. Isn't the camera a mac OS
thing, not a browser thing? It shows how to do it for QuickTime and other stuff but not FaceTime itself, so I am not sure of how to put it into terminal. Would it be something like this? tccutil reset Camera com.apple.QuickTimePlayerX only remove QuickTimePlayerX and put in FaceTime?


Originally Posted by joemikeb
The tccutil command is in the Darwin kernel and is still there in Monterey so it should work on your OS version as well. Note: everything in Terminal is case sensitive so TccUtil is not the same as tccutil. The safest option is to copy the command out of the article and paste it into Terminal and then press Return.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/10/22 06:37 PM
BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING DRASTIC
  1. I am not clear on whether you have checked to see if the camera works in either PhotoBooth or FaceTime when you are logged in on the test account? If they do NOT work in the test account the tccutil commands are unlikely to fix anything as they only change the settings for the logon account.
  2. PhotoBooth: On the menu Bar go to Camera and see what appears in the drop down menu. Exactly what options appear in that menu? Which items are checked (✓)?


IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION

Originally Posted by plantsower
The terminal command tccutil reset Camera com.apple.Safari is for Safari. Isn't the camera a mac OS
thing, not a browser thing? It shows how to do it for QuickTime and other stuff but not FaceTime itself, so I am not sure of how to put it into terminal. Would it be something like this? tccutil reset Camera com.apple.QuickTimePlayerX only remove QuickTimePlayerX and put in FaceTime?

Yes the Camera and the Microphone are MacOS "services" but each application must be granted access to the service on a application-by-application basis in System Preferences > security & Privacy > Privacy. Because of the nature of the application the system assumes FaceTime, PhotoBooth, and Safari are assumed to have access to the Camera and Microphone and therefore do not appear in System Preferences > security & Privacy > Privacy. (Safari is unique in allowing access to the camera and microphone on a site-by-site basis within the application itself.) Remember too the article is in reference to a specific issue that had been raised by another user. For a better understanding of what is going on, read this article on tccutil.

If you still want to proceed, use the instructions for the NUCLEAR OPTION at the bottom of this article but be aware you will have to reauthorize any other applications that use either the camera or microphone and it may not "fix" the issue with PhotoBooth or FaceTime.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/10/22 07:56 PM
[*]I am not clear on whether you have checked to see if the camera works in either PhotoBooth or FaceTime when you are logged in on the test account? If they do NOT work in the test account the tccutil commands are unlikely to fix anything as they only change the settings for the logon account.

Yes, I checked them before I got here. Camera didn't work there either.



[*]PhotoBooth: On the menu Bar go to Camera and see what appears in the drop down menu. Exactly what options appear in that menu? Which items are checked (✓)? There was no menu bar just a window as such: Photo Booth
[/list]


If you still want to proceed, use the instructions for the NUCLEAR OPTION at the bottom of this article but be aware you will have to reauthorize any other applications that use either the camera or microphone and it may not "fix" the issue with PhotoBooth or FaceTime. [/quote] I ran tccutil reset Camera but nothing happened. In fact, I quit FaceTime before I did that and then turned it back on but no camera available. I'm beginning to think there is zero fix for this. In the past when I used Photo Booth it didn't ask for a library, it just showed my face because the camera was working.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/10/22 09:30 PM
You are studiously avoiding resetting NVRAM.

It can't hurt to try...may even help, and if it costs you anything it likely won't be more than screen brightness, sound level, maaaybe date.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/10/22 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower

Yes, I checked them before I got here. Camera didn't work there either.

The menu bar for any MacOS app is not in the application window, rather it is across the tripe of the screen and changes according to which app has the focus. However, since you are not getting past locating the Photos library, PhotoBooth probably isn't even getting to the point of launching the menu bar.

Originally Posted by plantsower
I ran tccutil reset Camera but nothing happened. In fact, I quit FaceTime before I did that and then turned it back on but no camera available. I'm beginning to think there is zero fix for this. In the past when I used Photo Booth it didn't ask for a library, it just showed my face because the camera was working.

It appears a lot of links in your system have become corrupted or lost altogether. I have some suspicions about The what, how, when but that would not fix anything. The question at this point is how to fix the problem without creating other problems. The most likely solution is to re-install your OS, but there are alternative ways of going about that…
  1. Booting from a clone, then erasing the HD on your computer and then clone back to the HD would likely be the quickest and easiest, but that would unquestionably have the highest risk of failure because it is very likely the clone is "broken" too.
  2. A reinstall following these instructions would more likely be successful, but depending on the underlying cause of the problems, might not "fix" anything.
  3. Assuming you have a good Time Machine backup a Nuke & Pave (the same instructions as in number 2 preceding, but using the Disk Utility in the Recovery drive to erase your Hard drive before installing the OS and recovering your data from the time Machine backup) has the highest probability of success at the expense of spending more time and effort in the process.
  4. a nuke & Pave recovering your data from a clone would be a little faster than using Time Machine, but the risk of replicating the problem is arguably somewhat greater.

Is it sufficiently obvious I am prejudiced in favor of option 3? grin But then you will be doing all the work.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/10/22 09:45 PM
Sorry, Artie. I did run it, I just neglected to say so I guess. Nothing changed.


Originally Posted by artie505
You are studiously avoiding resetting NVRAM.

It can't hurt to try...may even help, and if it costs you anything it likely won't be more than screen brightness, sound level, maaaybe date.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/10/22 09:49 PM
I clicked on your link, but it just took me to the page we've been looking at. I purposefully only reset the camera. I actually don't see a terminal command including both in one command. Point me to it if it exists please.




Originally Posted by plantsower
What about this terminal command? It's for Mojave but maybe it would work.

Terminal Command to reset Camera and Mic permissions
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 10:35 AM
This is going around in circles.

Since your camera doesn't work in both your main and test accounts, it's got to be a system problem, so I suggest that since nothing else has worked, it's last resort, i.e. nuke & pave, time.

Boot from your clone, erase your internal drive, install Catalina from scratch, and import your settings from your clone with Migration Assistant, and if that doesn't get your camera working, it will establish that your problem is hardware, rather than software, based.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 07:32 PM
Wow, Artie, now that is a nuclear action. I really don't want to do that. It's not that important. It's aggravating that I can't use my camera, so that's why I went on a hunt for a solution, but it's not so important that I want to do that. Thanks for all your help and research. I really do appreciate it.



Originally Posted by artie505
This is going around in circles.

Since your camera doesn't work in both your main and test accounts, it's got to be a system problem, so I suggest that since nothing else has worked, it's last resort, i.e. nuke & pave, time.

Boot from your clone, erase your internal drive, install Catalina from scratch, and import your settings from your clone with Migration Assistant, and if that doesn't get your camera working, it will establish that your problem is hardware, rather than software, based.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 07:37 PM
Final thought: If your MBP is still covered by AppleCare, it may be worth experimenting to find out if your camera is kaput.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 07:39 PM
It's not covered. I've heard I can call them and they may not want to charge me, but I have to work up my nerve to do that. smirk


Originally Posted by artie505
Final thought: If your MBP is still covered by AppleCare, it may be worth experimenting to find out if your camera is kaput.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
It's not covered. I've heard I can call them and they may not want to charge me, but I have to work up my nerve to do that. smirk
I'm glad you brought that up. I meant to comment on it when Jon mentioned it, but I forgot.

I'm not 100% certain, but it's certainly worth checking: I think AppleCare applies to your machine, not the OS, i.e. software support may be free while hardware support is not.

Just call and ask.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Wow, Artie, now that is a nuclear action. I really don't want to do that. It's not that important. It's aggravating that I can't use my camera, so that's why I went on a hunt for a solution, but it's not so important that I want to do that. Thanks for all your help and research. I really do appreciate it.

Note that Artie and I each came to the same Nuke & Pave conclusion from different approaches. I would add to our joint recommendations that if the problem is software based, it is more likely to get worse than to stay the same and there is no chance it will get better unless it is fixed.

Before you call Apple, you can run Apple diagnostics (nee. Apple Hardware Test) following these instructions. The Genius desk at the Apple store has more rigorous tests available, but you have to take your Mac to the store to have those run.

That said, at this point, I would still recommend — make that urge — a Nuke & Pave rather than risk running afoul of McGillicuddy's corollary to Murphy's law.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 10:15 PM
Followed the directions to run diagnostics. Finally clicked "get started." Now all I have is a blank page with a very long url that starts with file:'/System/Installation/CDIS/MacOS%20utilities.app/contents/Resources anf on and on it goes. Is something happening and I just can't see it? How long does it take? Good thing I have my iMac to post here for now.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
Wow, Artie, now that is a nuclear action. I really don't want to do that. It's not that important. It's aggravating that I can't use my camera, so that's why I went on a hunt for a solution, but it's not so important that I want to do that. Thanks for all your help and research. I really do appreciate it.

Note that Artie and I each came to the same Nuke & Pave conclusion from different approaches. I would add to our joint recommendations that if the problem is software based, it is more likely to get worse than to stay the same and there is no chance it will get better unless it is fixed.

Before you call Apple, you can run Apple diagnostics (nee. Apple Hardware Test) following these instructions. The Genius desk at the Apple store has more rigorous tests available, but you have to take your Mac to the store to have those run.

That said, at this point, I would still recommend — make that urge — a Nuke & Pave rather than risk running afoul of McGillicuddy's corollary to Murphy's law.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Followed the directions to run diagnostics. Finally clicked "get started." Now all I have is a blank page with a very long url that starts with file:'/System/Installation/CDIS/MacOS%20utilities.app/contents/Resources anf on and on it goes. Is something happening and I just can't see it? How long does it take? Good thing I have my iMac to post here for now.
  • Apple Diagnostics take a long time as they are testing every memory cell, every CPU function, etc.
  • How long depends on how much memory, how much storage, how fast the processor is, etc.
  • Each version of Apple Diagnostics is a little different so I can't say for sure ir what you are seeing is normal or not.
  • In general, as long as you see the progress bar the tests are still running. When completed it will either say "No Issues Found" laugh or a list of codes shocked If you get a list of problem codes then your only option is a trip to the Genius Desk at the Apple Store for full up diagnostics and repair or replacement. mad


If you are unsure, confused try taking a picture of your screen with your iPhone and posting that for us to see what we can discern.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 11:02 PM
OK, I'll redo it and take a pic. There is no progress bar though, that's why I don't think anything was happening. I'm gonna wait until I start cooking dinner so I won't have to use my iMac which is in my office without a comfortable chair!

A funny thing happened when it was doing it's thing though. It did a test and then said there is either something wrong with your power adapter or it's not plugged in. Plug it in and we will check it. I did that. But I was told to disconnect everything, including the AC adapter (their words) before I ran the test. So, that made no sense. Anyway I finished following the commands but it really, really doesn't look like anything is happening. I'll try again.






Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
Followed the directions to run diagnostics. Finally clicked "get started." Now all I have is a blank page with a very long url that starts with file:'/System/Installation/CDIS/MacOS%20utilities.app/contents/Resources anf on and on it goes. Is something happening and I just can't see it? How long does it take? Good thing I have my iMac to post here for now.
  • Apple Diagnostics take a long time as they are testing every memory cell, every CPU function, etc.
  • How long depends on how much memory, how much storage, how fast the processor is, etc.
  • Each version of Apple Diagnostics is a little different so I can't say for sure ir what you are seeing is normal or not.
  • In general, as long as you see the progress bar the tests are still running. When completed it will either say "No Issues Found" laugh or a list of codes shocked If you get a list of problem codes then your only option is a trip to the Genius Desk at the Apple Store for full up diagnostics and repair or replacement. mad


If you are unsure, confused try taking a picture of your screen with your iPhone and posting that for us to see what we can discern.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
OK, I'll redo it and take a pic. There is no progress bar though, that's why I don't think anything was happening. I'm gonna wait until I start cooking dinner so I won't have to use my iMac which is in my office without a comfortable chair!

A funny thing happened when it was doing it's thing though. It did a test and then said there is either something wrong with your power adapter or it's not plugged in. Plug it in and we will check it. I did that. But I was told to disconnect everything, including the AC adapter (their words) before I ran the test. So, that made no sense. Anyway I finished following the commands but it really, really doesn't look like anything is happening. I'll try again.

Since the diagnostic test suggested plugging in the power supply, then I would do it. Apple Diagnostics can take HOURS to complete depending on you particular Mac. The Genius Desk deep diagnostics used at the Apple Store can take even longer. Consider starting Apple diagnostics running at bedtime and they should complete long before breakfast (you definitely want the power supply plugged in in this case.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/11/22 11:28 PM
Great idea. Thanks.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
OK, I'll redo it and take a pic. There is no progress bar though, that's why I don't think anything was happening. I'm gonna wait until I start cooking dinner so I won't have to use my iMac which is in my office without a comfortable chair!

A funny thing happened when it was doing it's thing though. It did a test and then said there is either something wrong with your power adapter or it's not plugged in. Plug it in and we will check it. I did that. But I was told to disconnect everything, including the AC adapter (their words) before I ran the test. So, that made no sense. Anyway I finished following the commands but it really, really doesn't look like anything is happening. I'll try again.

Since the diagnostic test suggested plugging in the power supply, then I would do it. Apple Diagnostics can take HOURS to complete depending on you particular Mac. The Genius Desk deep diagnostics used at the Apple Store can take even longer. Consider starting Apple diagnostics running at bedtime and they should complete long before breakfast (you definitely want the power supply plugged in in this case.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/12/22 06:19 PM
I ran diagnostics last night. It only took 1.5 minutes to work. I actually had a progress bar this time. It tested with the "no issues" code ADP000. I then clicked on "get started" so that Apple could see what's happening. I think that's what it was for, because I was given the choice to be on the internet or not. That's when I got the blank page again with the url I was talking about yesterday. I forgot to take a pic, but it wouldn't have shown the whole url anyway. Now I know it probably isn't an internal hardware problem. I've read where the diagnostics can take anywhere from a couple of minutes to hours. Luckily, mine was a couple of minutes. I think I will try this on my older MacBook.

Back to the drawing board. I don't have a lot of faith in Apple Care as they hardly ever were able to help me. I get a lot more help here than anywhere else. Sometimes I think I know more than they do depending on who I talk to. wink


Originally Posted by plantsower
Great idea. Thanks.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
OK, I'll redo it and take a pic. There is no progress bar though, that's why I don't think anything was happening. I'm gonna wait until I start cooking dinner so I won't have to use my iMac which is in my office without a comfortable chair!

A funny thing happened when it was doing it's thing though. It did a test and then said there is either something wrong with your power adapter or it's not plugged in. Plug it in and we will check it. I did that. But I was told to disconnect everything, including the AC adapter (their words) before I ran the test. So, that made no sense. Anyway I finished following the commands but it really, really doesn't look like anything is happening. I'll try again.

Since the diagnostic test suggested plugging in the power supply, then I would do it. Apple Diagnostics can take HOURS to complete depending on you particular Mac. The Genius Desk deep diagnostics used at the Apple Store can take even longer. Consider starting Apple diagnostics running at bedtime and they should complete long before breakfast (you definitely want the power supply plugged in in this case.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/12/22 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
I ran diagnostics last night. It only took 1.5 minutes to work. I actually had a progress bar this time. It tested with the "no issues" code ADP000. I then clicked on "get started"
so that Apple could see what's happening. I think that's what it was for, because I was given the choice to be on the internet or not. That's when I got the blank page again with the url I was talking about yesterday.
I forgot to take a pic, but it wouldn't have shown the whole url anyway. Now I know it probably isn't an internal hardware problem. I've read where the diagnostics can take anywhere from a couple of minutes to hours.

Luckily, mine was a couple of minutes. I think I will try this on my older MacBook.

Back to the drawing board. I don't have a lot of faith in Apple Care as they hardly ever were able to help me. I get a lot more help here than anywhere else. Sometimes I think I know more than they do depending on
who I talk to. wink

From my experience training Tech Support "Engineers", the situation was best described by Sir Winston Churchill as, "…two peoples separated by a common language". Both you and the Genius know what you are
describing, but you have different images/actions attached to those words. The difference on FTM is having time to cogitate on what the other is saying — and meaning. Even I get tongue tied describing my issue to someone
at the Genius Desk.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/12/22 08:21 PM
smile

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
I ran diagnostics last night. It only took 1.5 minutes to work. I actually had a progress bar this time. It tested with the "no issues" code ADP000. I then clicked on "get started"
so that Apple could see what's happening. I think that's what it was for, because I was given the choice to be on the internet or not. That's when I got the blank page again with the url I was talking about yesterday.
I forgot to take a pic, but it wouldn't have shown the whole url anyway. Now I know it probably isn't an internal hardware problem. I've read where the diagnostics can take anywhere from a couple of minutes to hours.

Luckily, mine was a couple of minutes. I think I will try this on my older MacBook.

Back to the drawing board. I don't have a lot of faith in Apple Care as they hardly ever were able to help me. I get a lot more help here than anywhere else. Sometimes I think I know more than they do depending on
who I talk to. wink

From my experience training Tech Support "Engineers", the situation was best described by Sir Winston Churchill as, "…two peoples separated by a common language". Both you and the Genius know what you are
describing, but you have different images/actions attached to those words. The difference on FTM is having time to cogitate on what the other is saying — and meaning. Even I get tongue tied describing my issue to someone
at the Genius Desk.
smirk
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/12/22 08:55 PM
Luckily, mine was a couple of minutes. I think I will try this on my older MacBook.

Ran the diagnostics and it also came up with no issues. Darn. My late 2009 iMac (3.06 Ghz, 4 gig memory, 256 mb graphics) is faster than my MacBook (mid-20212, 2.5 gHz, 4 gb memory, 499 mb storage.) Not sure if I gave enough stats but you would think the MacBook would be faster as hardly any of the storage is used at all.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/12/22 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Ran the diagnostics and it also came up with no issues. Darn. My late 2009 iMac (3.06 Ghz, 4 gig memory, 256 mb graphics) is faster than my MacBook (mid-20212, 2.5 gHz, 4 gb memory, 499 mb storage.) Not sure if I gave enough stats but you would think the MacBook would be faster as hardly any of the storage is used at all.

Both your iMac and MacBook are using 5400 rpm HDs and the free space will have little or no effect on system speed so that is not a consideration when determining which would be faster. Both have the same bare minimum of memory so that too is a wash in the speed department. That leaves the processor as primary determining factor. Pure GHz of processor speed is not the full story particularly in light of the fact that the i5 processor in your MacBook may be rated at 2.5GHz it will accelerate up to 3.1GHz under full load and the i5 chip will process more data than a core2 Duo running at the same clock speed. So, all else being equal — and it probably isn't — I would expect your MacBook to be faster than the iMac.

My question would be how are you determining "speed"? By personal impression or by a test utility such as GeekBench 5?
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 12:14 AM
You know me, I don't pay for utilities, so it's just my impression because everything takes so long to load.


Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
Ran the diagnostics and it also came up with no issues. Darn. My late 2009 iMac (3.06 Ghz, 4 gig memory, 256 mb graphics) is faster than my MacBook (mid-20212, 2.5 gHz, 4 gb memory, 499 mb storage.) Not sure if I gave enough stats but you would think the MacBook would be faster as hardly any of the storage is used at all.

Both your iMac and MacBook are using 5400 rpm HDs and the free space will have little or no effect on system speed so that is not a consideration when determining which would be faster. Both have the same bare minimum of memory so that too is a wash in the speed department. That leaves the processor as primary determining factor. Pure GHz of processor speed is not the full story particularly in light of the fact that the i5 processor in your MacBook may be rated at 2.5GHz it will accelerate up to 3.1GHz under full load and the i5 chip will process more data than a core2 Duo running at the same clock speed. So, all else being equal — and it probably isn't — I would expect your MacBook to be faster than the iMac.

My question would be how are you determining "speed"? By personal impression or by a test utility such as GeekBench 5?
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 03:51 AM
I was just looking at the error codes from the diagnostic test. Not for me but the codes in general. One code is NDC001
NDC003
NDC004
NDC005
NDC006 stating:
There may be an issue with the camera.

I wonder why I didn't get that code.


Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
Ran the diagnostics and it also came up with no issues. Darn. My late 2009 iMac (3.06 Ghz, 4 gig memory, 256 mb graphics) is faster than my MacBook (mid-20212, 2.5 gHz, 4 gb memory, 499 mb storage.) Not sure if I gave enough stats but you would think the MacBook would be faster as hardly any of the storage is used at all.

Both your iMac and MacBook are using 5400 rpm HDs and the free space will have little or no effect on system speed so that is not a consideration when determining which would be faster. Both have the same bare minimum of memory so that too is a wash in the speed department. That leaves the processor as primary determining factor. Pure GHz of processor speed is not the full story particularly in light of the fact that the i5 processor in your MacBook may be rated at 2.5GHz it will accelerate up to 3.1GHz under full load and the i5 chip will process more data than a core2 Duo running at the same clock speed. So, all else being equal — and it probably isn't — I would expect your MacBook to be faster than the iMac.

My question would be how are you determining "speed"? By personal impression or by a test utility such as GeekBench 5?
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
I was just looking at the error codes from the diagnostic test. Not for me but the codes in general. One code is NDC001
NDC003
NDC004
NDC005
NDC006 stating:
There may be an issue with the camera.

I wonder why I didn't get that code.
You ran a hardware diagnostic, so your not seeing that code in your results apparently indicates that your camera is functioning as expected...that you probably need to do a (Has anybody mentioned this before? tongue ) nuke & pave.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
I was just looking at the error codes from the diagnostic test. Not for me but the codes in general. One code is NDC001
NDC003
NDC004
NDC005
NDC006 stating:
There may be an issue with the camera.

I wonder why I didn't get that code.

Because you ran a HARDware test and there is no issue with your HARDware. That means the issue is with your SOFTware (ie. MacOS) and you are back to the nuke & pave Artie and I both recommended. A simple OS re-install [/b]might[/b] fix the problem but nuke & pave is more likely to clear up any other underlying issues.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 05:57 PM
You ran a hardware diagnostic, so your not seeing that code in your results apparently indicates that your camera is functioning as expected...that you probably need to do a (Has anybody mentioned this before? tongue ) nuke & pave. [/quote]

LOL! Yes, and if my Mac gets to where it is giving me fits in general and not just the camera, I will do that!
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 06:01 PM
Right, but it makes me nervous and I just am not up for it. Like I told Artie, if my Mac acts up in ways that really concern me, I will do that. I remember last time I did something like that, you guys had to answer a bunch of questions over and over until I got it right.

I'm not up for that for just the camera which I can live without. Thanks, Joe.




Because you ran a HARDware test and there is no issue with your HARDware. That means the issue is with your SOFTware (ie. MacOS) and you are back to the nuke & pave Artie and I both recommended. A simple OS re-install [/b]might[/b] fix the problem but nuke & pave is more likely to clear up any other underlying issues. [/quote]
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Right, but it makes me nervous and I just am not up for it. Like I told Artie, if my Mac acts up in ways that really concern me, I will do that. I remember last time I did something like that, you guys had to answer a bunch of questions over and over until I got it right.

I'm not up for that for just the camera which I can live without. Thanks, Joe.
You've got a considerably higher aggravation threshold than I've got! laugh

Not to browbeat you, but remember that even if you're unhappy with the results of a nuke & pave, you'll still have your backup clone to revert to.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 06:38 PM
Right. I'd better get on that. I haven't backed up for awhile. I know you guys do it often, but I'm lazy that way.

Not to browbeat you, but remember that even if you're unhappy with the results of a nuke & pave, you'll still have your backup clone to revert to. [/quote]
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 06:44 PM
Your slow loading issue can be somewhat alleviated by swapping the painfully slow 5400 RPM HD you have currently installed for a Solid State Drive. Add to that a memory upgrade to 8 or even 16 GB and you might well believe that your MacBook was on steroids. The Apple Store will not do the upgrades but Other World Computing will. This would be a small fraction of the cost of a new machine and could add years to your MacBook's useful lifespan.

DISCLAIMER: I have no relationship pecuniary or otherwise with Other Worlds Computing other than that of a long time customer.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 06:49 PM
Thanks, Joe. I believe you, but I thought you said that the memory amount wouldn't have anything to do with the speed. I admit my SSD works faster than my old Mac but so does my even older iMac. That's what is bothering me.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Your slow loading issue can be somewhat alleviated by swapping the painfully slow 5400 RPM HD you have currently installed for a Solid State Drive. Add to that a memory upgrade to 8 or even 16 GB and you might well believe that your MacBook was on steroids. The Apple Store will not do the upgrades but Other World Computing will. This would be a small fraction of the cost of a new machine and could add years to your MacBook's useful lifespan.

DISCLAIMER: I have no relationship pecuniary or otherwise with Other Worlds Computing other than that of a long time customer.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Thanks, Joe. I believe you, but I thought you said that the memory amount wouldn't have anything to do with the speed. I admit my SSD works faster than my old Mac but so does my even older iMac. That's what is bothering me.

Your perceived speed difference is another reason for concern about the health of the software on your MacBook. I understand that nuke & pave can seem daunting, but at the very least I urge you to re-install your current version of MacOS. The Bare Minimum ProcessIt is very simple and straightforward, and the enhanced version only slightly more complicated but either is well within your demonstrated competence:

BARE MINIMUM PROCESS

  1. Connect your MacBook to the power supply
  2. Print out these instructions so you have them while the reinstall is in process.
  3. follow the instructions for an Intel Processor.

Depending on your download speed and other factors the entire process should somewhere between 30 minutes and an hour. You may be asked for your logon password about midway through the process.

ENHANCED PROCESS:

  1. Connect your MacBook to the power supply
  2. Print out these instructions so you have them while the reinstall is in process.
  3. Boot following the instructions for an Intel Processor.
  4. Once you are booted from the Recovery Drive run Disk Utility > First Aid to be sure the volume structure on your HD is healthy.
  5. If problems are found and not repaired re-run Disk Utility > First Aid
  6. When either no errors are found or errors were found by corrected Quit Disk Utility
  7. Launch Reinstall MocOS...
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 01/13/22 09:20 PM
Thank you. I will consider it. I remember doing something similar when told to by AppleCare. I did what they said, and I ended up having to go to the Apple store to get it fixed. I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I think it had something to do with deleting my OS version and re-downloading it, but it didn't work.. That is why I am so reticent. I live an hour away from an Apple store (if they are even open as some closed due to covid). I think I mentioned the exact circumstances here a few years ago, but I can't seem to find anything I am looking for from my past posts. I know I can look under advanced search and use my handle but I still can't always find what I am looking for. I know I probably mentioned the Apple Store but I couldn't find a post like that when I looked. Lots of posts since 2009. :)


Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
Thanks, Joe. I believe you, but I thought you said that the memory amount wouldn't have anything to do with the speed. I admit my SSD works faster than my old Mac but so does my even older iMac. That's what is bothering me.

Your perceived speed difference is another reason for concern about the health of the software on your MacBook. I understand that nuke & pave can seem daunting, but at the very least I urge you to re-install your current version of MacOS. The Bare Minimum ProcessIt is very simple and straightforward, and the enhanced version only slightly more complicated but either is well within your demonstrated competence:

BARE MINIMUM PROCESS

  1. Connect your MacBook to the power supply
  2. Print out these instructions so you have them while the reinstall is in process.
  3. follow the instructions for an Intel Processor.

Depending on your download speed and other factors the entire process should somewhere between 30 minutes and an hour. You may be asked for your logon password about midway through the process.

ENHANCED PROCESS:

  1. Connect your MacBook to the power supply
  2. Print out these instructions so you have them while the reinstall is in process.
  3. Boot following the instructions for an Intel Processor.
  4. Once you are booted from the Recovery Drive run Disk Utility > First Aid to be sure the volume structure on your HD is healthy.
  5. If problems are found and not repaired re-run Disk Utility > First Aid
  6. When either no errors are found or errors were found by corrected Quit Disk Utility
  7. Launch Reinstall MocOS...
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 02:25 AM
I am still trying to get my camera function back without the nuke option. You said our version of Catalina does not have apple camera assistant but FYI I just looked and it's on the activity monitor. I force quit but it made no difference
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 02:34 AM
I just checked again, and I still haven't got that file. It probably has something to do with the fact that I never use my camera.

You seem to be edging closer and closer to the nuclear option.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 02:47 AM
Nah! It's just the camera. Not for that.

You seem to be edging closer and closer to the nuclear option. [/quote]
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 04:58 AM
One last try, then...

Navigate to ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.camera.plist (which I just found), move it to your desktop, immediately shut down/restart your MBP.

If you want to be daring, you can follow that procedure for ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd, but be certain to save it on your desktop and be certain that Photos works as expected after you restart.

Personally, I'd start with just the .plist.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and =^._.^= for luck. smile
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 05:07 AM
I can't remember how to do that. I went to Finder - Go - Go to folder but couldn't find it. I finally found containers but couldn't find the exact match. Please send the roadmap.

Navigate to ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.camera.plist (which I just found), move it to your desktop, immediately shut down/restart your MBP.

Not sure how to navigate to the following either.


If you want to be daring, you can follow that procedure for ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd, but be certain to save it on your desktop and be certain that Photos works as expected after you restart.

Personally, I'd start with just the .plist.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and =^._.^= for luck. smile [/quote]
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by plantsower
I can't remember how to do that. I went to Finder - Go - Go to folder but couldn't find it. I finally found containers but couldn't find the exact match. Please send the roadmap.

Navigate to ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.camera.plist (which I just found), move it to your desktop, immediately shut down/restart your MBP.

Not sure how to navigate to the following either.


If you want to be daring, you can follow that procedure for ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd, but be certain to save it on your desktop and be certain that Photos works as expected after you restart.

The second path is just the beginning of the first one.

The paths are the roadmaps you're asking for.

If you were able to get to "Containers," just keep going from there.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 07:02 PM
Here's the thing. I went to containers yesterday before I posted and could not find the exact folder. A couple of them started out with ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd/Data/Library/Preferences/com but no camera was mentioned. I looked inside the folders and still no camera mentioned.


Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by plantsower
I can't remember how to do that. I went to Finder - Go - Go to folder but couldn't find it. I finally found containers but couldn't find the exact match. Please send the roadmap.

Navigate to ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd/Data/Library/Preferences/com.apple.camera.plist (which I just found), move it to your desktop, immediately shut down/restart your MBP.

Not sure how to navigate to the following either.


If you want to be daring, you can follow that procedure for ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd, but be certain to save it on your desktop and be certain that Photos works as expected after you restart.

The second path is just the beginning of the first one.

The paths are the roadmaps you're asking for.

If you were able to get to "Containers," just keep going from there.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Here's the thing. I went to containers yesterday before I posted and could not find the exact folder. A couple of them started out with ~/Library/Containers/com.apple.photolibraryd/Data/Library/Preferences/com but no camera was mentioned. I looked inside the folders and still no camera mentioned.
Maybe the problem is that I was looking in Monterey, not Catalina. (Oops!) I'll look in Catalina a bit later.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/08/22 08:58 PM
Okie dokie.


Maybe the problem is that I was looking in Monterey, not Catalina. (Oops!) I'll look in Catalina a bit later. [/quote]
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/09/22 09:52 AM
No luck, Rita. I went through Catalina and didn't find any files that are even remotely pertinent to your camera.

I've lost track. Have you tried just running the Catalina installer rather than nuke & pave?
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/09/22 07:58 PM
Yes, I got a friend to put it on a thumb drive for me and I ran from that. No change. Hardware test proved negative. Did PRAM with no change. So weird, under System report, I clicked on Camera and got the message "No video capture devices were found." I guess it's lost in cyberspace.

Originally Posted by artie505
No luck, Rita. I went through Catalina and didn't find any files that are even remotely pertinent to your camera.

I've lost track. Have you tried just running the Catalina installer rather than nuke & pave?
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/09/22 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
So weird, under System report, I clicked on Camera and got the message "No video capture devices were found." I guess it's lost in cyberspace.
I'm far from an expert, but that sounds to me like your camera's kaput.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/09/22 08:24 PM
From what I've been reading on the apple community, some people got it back by upgrading to Big Sur, but it didn't work for everyone. Some people said that the logic board was the culprit and needed to be replaced. No thanks. One person said that the culprit for him was Kapersky and the camera worked after deleting it. Now I am wondering if Malwarebytes might be causing me problems, though it never has in the past. Not sure what I'm gonna do if anything. It's not vital. My husband has to use Zoom to talk to his doctor every month, but the camera works on the iMac so no problem.


Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by plantsower
So weird, under System report, I clicked on Camera and got the message "No video capture devices were found." I guess it's lost in cyberspace.
I'm far from an expert, but that sounds to me like your camera's kaput.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/09/22 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
From what I've been reading on the apple community, some people got it back by upgrading to Big Sur, but it didn't work for everyone. Some people said that the logic board was the culprit and needed to be replaced. No thanks. One person said that the culprit for him was Kapersky and the camera worked after deleting it. Now I am wondering if Malwarebytes might be causing me problems, though it never has in the past. Not sure what I'm gonna do if anything. It's not vital.
As I said, I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the camera's not being seen by System Info is a far different, more basic, that is, problem than it's being unable to connect to software.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/09/22 09:59 PM
Right. There are many irate and frustrated customers on the Apple forum about this. It's like Apple could care less. No patches offered or anything else. If I didn't dislike PCs so much I would go back.

Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by plantsower
From what I've been reading on the apple community, some people got it back by upgrading to Big Sur, but it didn't work for everyone. Some people said that the logic board was the culprit and needed to be replaced. No thanks. One person said that the culprit for him was Kapersky and the camera worked after deleting it. Now I am wondering if Malwarebytes might be causing me problems, though it never has in the past. Not sure what I'm gonna do if anything. It's not vital.
As I said, I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the camera's not being seen by System Info is a far different, more basic, that is, problem than it's being unable to connect to software.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/09/22 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Right. There are many irate and frustrated customers on the Apple forum about this. It's like Apple could care less. No patches offered or anything else.
They can't patch a failed/defective camera.

It'll take a class action suit to get them to move, but it doesn't sound like the problem is widespread enough to attract a lawyer's attention.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/09/22 10:34 PM
They can't patch a failed/defective camera. But it passes the hardware test!

It'll take a class action suit to get them to move, but it doesn't sound like the problem is widespread enough to attract a lawyer's attention. [/quote] There are plenty of people affected. AppleCare personnel have been involved, and it's been taken higher up. They have replaced some screens (that fixed it), and I think something else in some cases, but it looks like they are not going to address it. I found out it affects different years and version of Macs. I think it's big enough that they should take responsibility. They won't.

A couple of people said vacuuming the nooks and crannies of the hinge worked. That's hard to believe.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/11/22 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by plantsower
They can't patch a failed/defective camera. But it passes the hardware test!
Whatever that means in "English," i.e. maybe the issue slipped between the cracks in the hardware test but would be obvious to the tools available at the Apple Store.

Originally Posted by plantsower
It'll take a class action suit to get them to move, but it doesn't sound like the problem is widespread enough to attract a lawyer's attention. There are plenty of people affected. AppleCare personnel have been involved, and it's been taken higher up. They have replaced some screens (that fixed it), and I think something else in some cases, but it looks like they are not going to address it. I found out it affects different years and version of Macs. I think it's big enough that they should take responsibility. They won't.
They can only address a clearly defined problem, and from what you've said, none has been brought to the table. Is the number of people who've reported needing to have their screens replaced significant?

Consider your own example: You don't want to travel to an Apple Store where they may be able to diagnose your problem, and you don't even want to go the troubleshooting distance in the form of a reinstallation or upgrade, so why should Apple even address your problem, let alone give you a new screen (an entire screen assembly [which I believe is the most expensive component in a MBP] because the camera isn't a separate, replaceable component), when they've got no idea what it actually is?

If "n" Macs brought to the Genius Bar were diagnosed with the same issue, Apple would be vulnerable, but until that happens...

The fact of the matter is that we know Apple won't address an issue that hasn't been conclusively determined to NOT have been caused by 3rd party software, and we further know that even when they've got their back to the wall they'll fight like cornered rats to avoid accepting responsibility. They've got to be compelled to face reality by customer uproar, and that won't happen until the Genius Bars - not the troubleshooting websites - have been overwhelmed with complaints.

This seems like the sort of thing that might benefit from a dedicated Facebook page.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/11/22 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
They can't patch a failed/defective camera. But it passes the hardware test!

It'll take a class action suit to get them to move, but it doesn't sound like the problem is widespread enough to attract a lawyer's attention.
There are plenty of people affected. AppleCare personnel have been involved, and it's been taken higher up. They have replaced some screens (that fixed it), and I think something else in some cases, but it looks like they are not going to address it. I found out it affects different years and version of Macs. I think it's big enough that they should take responsibility. They won't.

A couple of people said vacuuming the nooks and crannies of the hinge worked. That's hard to believe. [/quote]
There is always the possibility of coincidental repair. There was a period when Apple was having problems with the cable connecting the monitor to the macBook logicboard. Because some users had apparent success vacuuming out the hinge, which in some cases would joggle the connection back into alignment, that became touted was a sure-fire fix although it had nothing to do with the actual issue. The real fix required a new hinge and connector cable assembly. Fixing the problem is not the answer — it is fixing the right problem.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/11/22 03:12 PM
By-the-way, I have not needed to repair or change permissions in macOS in at least five or six years.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/11/22 07:25 PM
Why would I go to a Genius Bar an hour away when they will charge me me to poke around and then try to upset me a screen just in case that's it? Others have already used AppleCare and also gone to the Genius Bar with usually no help. Some of those that had their screen replaced said that worked. But it's very expensive and not worth it to me.

They can only address a clearly defined problem, and from what you've said, none has been brought to the table. Is the number of people who've reported needing to have their screens replaced significant? How would I know that. From what I've read, it was mentioned that it's all over forums on the internet, not just Apple.com. I don't have access to stats.

Consider your own example: You don't want to travel to an Apple Store where they may be able to diagnose your problem, and you don't even want to go the troubleshooting distance in the form of a reinstallation or upgrade, so why should Apple even address your problem, let alone give you a new screen (an entire screen assembly [which I believe is the most expensive component in a MBP] because the camera isn't a separate, replaceable component), when they've got no idea what it actually is? I told you a friend put Catalina on a thumb drive and I reinstalled Catalina with no difference in the camera showing up.

If "n" Macs brought to the Genius Bar were diagnosed with the same issue, Apple would be vulnerable, but until that happens..."n" Macs?

The fact of the matter is that we know Apple won't address an issue that hasn't been conclusively determined to NOT have been caused by 3rd party software, and we further know that even when they've got their back to the wall they'll fight like cornered rats to avoid accepting responsibility. They've got to be compelled to face reality by customer uproar, and that won't happen until the Genius Bars - not the troubleshooting websites - have been overwhelmed with complaints. That's what I think it is. Their customer support is nothing like it used to be.

This seems like the sort of thing that might benefit from a dedicated Facebook page. [/quote] Maybe so, but I don't use facebook and don't want to. Maybe I can suggest it the next time I'm on a forum regarding this issue if Apple will even see it.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/11/22 07:47 PM
Wow! The real fix required a new hinge and connector cable assembly. Fixing the problem is not the answer — it is fixing the right problem. [/quote]
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/11/22 07:49 PM
Are you bragging? LOL! tongue

Originally Posted by joemikeb
By-the-way, I have not needed to repair or change permissions in macOS in at least five or six years.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/12/22 07:10 PM
Why would I go to a Genius Bar an hour away when they will charge me me to poke around and then try to upset me a screen just in case that's it? Others have already used AppleCare and also gone to the Genius Bar with usually no help. Some of those that had their screen replaced said that worked. But it's very expensive and not worth it to me.
That's totally understandable, but it doesn't help Apple get any closer to identifying the problem.

I told you a friend put Catalina on a thumb drive and I reinstalled Catalina with no difference in the camera showing up.
That's been addressed in your trash permissions thread.

If "n" Macs brought to the Genius Bar were diagnosed with the same issue, Apple would be vulnerable, but until that happens..."n" Macs?
"n" is a convention for an indeterminate number.

This seems like the sort of thing that might benefit from a dedicated Facebook page. Maybe so, but I don't use facebook and don't want to. Maybe I can suggest it the next time I'm on a forum regarding this issue if Apple will even see it.
I'll guess that if a Facebook page were to be created and generate significant interest, Apple would become aware of it and address it in some manner.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/12/22 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Why would I go to a Genius Bar an hour away when they will charge me me to poke around and then try to upset me a screen just in case that's it? Others have already used AppleCare and also gone to the Genius Bar with usually no help. Some of those that had their screen replaced said that worked. But it's very expensive and not worth it to me.
That's totally understandable, but it doesn't help Apple get any closer to identifying the problem.

You're right.


I told you a friend put Catalina on a thumb drive and I reinstalled Catalina with no difference in the camera showing up.
That's been addressed in your trash permissions thread. I just saw that earlier today and responded. Thanks.

If "n" Macs brought to the Genius Bar were diagnosed with the same issue, Apple would be vulnerable, but until that happens..."n" Macs?
"n" is a convention for an indeterminate number. Ah..

This seems like the sort of thing that might benefit from a dedicated Facebook page. Maybe so, but I don't use facebook and don't want to. Maybe I can suggest it the next time I'm on a forum regarding this issue if Apple will even see it.
I'll guess that if a Facebook page were to be created and generate significant interest, Apple would become aware of it and address it in some manner.
Yes, I will keep that in mind for problems that no one can seem to find an answer for on other forums. I will suggest it as lots of people actually do use Facebook though I hear they are losing lots of members.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/12/22 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Are you bragging? LOL! tongue

Originally Posted by joemikeb
By-the-way, I have not needed to repair or change permissions in macOS in at least five or six years.

Not bragging, rather pointing out what for several years was a routine maintenance procedure has become unnecessary and potentially creates more risk than benefit. At the outermost user level there is not that much obvious difference between macOS X 10.0 (Cheetah) and macOS 12 (Monterey) but under the hood they are radically different.

Some of the standby maintenance routines we used to follow on our Macs remind me of the very confused young man I saw at the filling station wandering around trying to figure out where to put gasoline in the Tesla he was driving.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 02/12/22 10:22 PM
Not bragging, rather pointing out what for several years was a routine maintenance procedure has become unnecessary and potentially creates more risk than benefit. At the outermost user level there is not that much obvious difference between macOS X 10.0 (Cheetah) and macOS 12 (Monterey) but under the hood they are radically different. Oh, ok.

Some of the standby maintenance routines we used to follow on our Macs remind me of the very confused young man I saw at the filling station wandering around trying to figure out where to put gasoline in the Tesla he was driving. [/quote] LOL! For real? I once watched a guy drive up to a pump and when he got out he realized his gas tank was on the other side. So he got back in and drove around to the other side of the pump. Same problem! It was so funny to watch.
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 05/28/22 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by plantsower
Thanks, Joe. I believe you, but I thought you said that the memory amount wouldn't have anything to do with the speed. I admit my SSD works faster than my old Mac but so does my even older iMac. That's what is bothering me.

Your perceived speed difference is another reason for concern about the health of the software on your MacBook. I understand that nuke & pave can seem daunting, but at the very least I urge you to re-install your current version of MacOS. The Bare Minimum ProcessIt is very simple and straightforward, and the enhanced version only slightly more complicated but either is well within your demonstrated competence:

BARE MINIMUM PROCESS

  1. Connect your MacBook to the power supply
  2. Print out these instructions so you have them while the reinstall is in process.
  3. follow the instructions for an Intel Processor.

Depending on your download speed and other factors the entire process should somewhere between 30 minutes and an hour. You may be asked for your logon password about midway through the process.

ENHANCED PROCESS:

  1. Connect your MacBook to the power supply
  2. Print out these instructions so you have them while the reinstall is in process.
  3. Boot following the instructions for an Intel Processor.
  4. Once you are booted from the Recovery Drive run Disk Utility > First Aid to be sure the volume structure on your HD is healthy.
  5. If problems are found and not repaired re-run Disk Utility > First Aid
  6. When either no errors are found or errors were found by corrected Quit Disk Utility
  7. Launch Reinstall MocOS...
OK, so Rita erased the MBP's HDD from Recovery (so I couldn't experience the exact slowness she's been complaining about) and shipped it to me to see what I could make of it.

The saga:
  1. I booted into Recovery and partitioned the HDD and installed Catalina 10.15.7.
  2. I overwrote the clean Catalina installation with the clone I had saved, and cloned in my music/apps/etc. partition.
  3. Slow? Close to 20 minutes from chime to desktop and fully populated menu bar, and no less than 30 seconds to respond to any input. Whew!
  4. Since the machine had only 4 GB RAM, I ordered 8 GB. (My daughter's got the same MBP, and it runs 10.15.7 just fine with 8 GB.)
  5. Crucial linked me to a Newegg seller at a 33% lower price...turned out be, of all things, bait & switch..."They're the same specs as the ones you ordered. Try them and let us how it goes." Not the least bit likely!
  6. I returned the RAM and reordered from Crucial.
  7. Absolutely zero difference in boot or response times.
  8. Ran Repair Disk from Recovery...no issues reported.
  9. Ran Apple Hardware Test...no issues reported.
  10. Erased HDD and reinstalled 10.15.7 from Recovery, this time migrating data rather than cloning it in (except , of course, for my partition).
  11. No difference in either boot or response time.
  12. Much head scratching with no inspiration.
  13. INSPIRATION!
  14. I booted from the clone on my external, and both boot and response times were considerably faster, although still not up to par.
  15. That got me thinking that maybe having booted from the external somehow took some "load" off the internal, so I erased my 250 GB partition to see if I could perhaps duplicate my success.
  16. Yup! Booting into the internal and subsequent response times were about the same as with the external.
  17. Extrapolating, I ordered a 500 GB Seagate HDD for $19.99. Wow, cheap!
  18. I installed the new HDD, and VOILA! The MBP now functions as expected!!!


Now, here's the curious part: My plan was to install the new HDD and reinstall the 4GB RAM simultaneously in the hope that the machine would work as expected with that configuration and I could return the Crucial RAM for a refund, BUT...the MBP wouldn't "accept" the RAM...tormented me with 3 beeps each of the 3-4 times I tried to start up after unseating/reseating it.

So, it seems like both the RAM and HDD in Rita's MBP went wonky at the same time...one heck of a coincidence. I wonder if the problem would ever have been solved remotely.
Posted By: MacManiac Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 05/28/22 05:45 PM
Nice job Artie!!!! I'm gonna say remotely would have been a horribly frustrating failure!
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/02/22 03:32 AM
Y'know, it just occurred to me that maybe the RAM isn't bad...that by beeping, the MBP was just telling me that it's insufficient for Catalina (despite the fact that Apple specifies 4 GB)?

If I can work up the ambition and energy to deal with those tiny screws again, I'll borrow my daughter's chips and try them.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/02/22 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Y'know, it just occurred to me that maybe the RAM isn't bad...that by beeping, the MBP was just telling me that it's insufficient for Catalina (despite the fact that Apple specifies 4 GB)?

"Bad RAM beeps", what a blast from the good old days! The beep indicates the processor does not detect any RAM and is independent of the particular operating system, but that doesn't mean you can put your screwdriver away. The most common causes are:
  1. Improperly seated DIMM (remove and reseat the DIMM being sure it is seated all the way to the bottom of the logic board connector. This could also help with items 2 and 3 below and I would try it two or three times before giving up.)
  2. Corroded contacts on the DIMM (a soft pencil eraser will clean the contacts)
  3. Dirty or corroded contacts in the DIMM connector on the logic board (a puff of canned air to blow out any dust and clean the contacts with a 70% isopropyl alcohol swab or a Contact Cleaner spray)
  4. A DIMM module performing at the lower end or below the specification range. (replace the DIMM)


I know that many on this forum swear by (not at) Crucial memory grin but I have had multiple failures with Crucial DIMMs over the years, but OWC has never let me down yet. (Now that Apple is building the Memory on the same fabric as the processor I do not anticipate ever being concerned about new DIMMs in the future.)

BY-THE-WAY: nice troubleshooting!
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/02/22 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Y'know, it just occurred to me that maybe the RAM isn't bad...that by beeping, the MBP was just telling me that it's insufficient for Catalina (despite the fact that Apple specifies 4 GB)?

"Bad RAM beeps", what a blast from the good old days! The memory beeps are a firmware function independent of the OS. According to Apple tech NOte HT202768 A beep at 5 second intervals indicates the processor does not detect any RAM, three beeps at 5 second intervals indicates the memory did not pass the integrity test, but that doesn't mean you can put your screwdriver away. The most common causes are:
  1. Improperly seated DIMM (remove and reseat the DIMM being sure it is seated all the way to the bottom of the logic board connector. I would try this at least two or three times before giving up as it might also solve the next two problems on the list.)
  2. Corroded contacts on the DIMM (a soft pencil eraser will clean the contacts)
  3. Dirty or corroded contacts in the DIMM connector on the logic board (a puff of canned air to blow out any dust and clean the contacts with a 70% isopropyl alcohol swab, or use a contact Cleaner spray.
  4. A DIMM module performing below or at the lower end of the specification range (replace the DIMM)


I know that many on this forum swear by (not at) Crucial memory grin but I have had multiple failures with Crucial DIMMs over the years, but OWC has never let me down yet. (Now that Apple is building the Memory on the same fabric as the processor I do not anticipate ever being concerned about new DIMMs in the future.)
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/04/22 09:49 AM
The beeping DIMMs (Three beeps, then a 5-second pause, repeating: The memory in your Mac didn't pass an integrity check.) are not the ones I bought from Crucial. They're the OEM DIMMs which came with the MBP and were working to at least some degree when I got it from Rita.

The Crucial DIMMs were working as expected when I got the new HDD, but hoping to return them for a refund, I reinstalled the OEMs, which is when the beeping began.

I gave the DIMMs a light brushing with a plastic eraser and unseated/reseated them 3 or 4 times before giving up on them.

A quick Google search tends to support my guess that it may be an OS problem. Here are a couple of related posts I found:
...the 4GB you have will be insufficient for Catalina, despite what Apple says. (This reports on a MacBook Air.)
...a lot of people will try to install Catalina using the patcher on a MacBook that only has 4 GB of RAM and a mechanical HDD. Let me tell you now, that is a near-SUICIDAL experience for a Mac, and this goes for all models. It will run slow as molasses, and you WILL regret it. (This reports on a patched system.)
Furthermore, the MBP in question (13'' Mid 2012) is an unusual machine in that it had an extended (4 year) production run which actually ended after the 2014s had been discontinued, and that could mean that it may not be 100% up to running Catalina, its final viable OS version, again, despite what Apple says.

...all of which suggests the possible relevance of your item "4: A DIMM module performing below or at the lower end of the specification range (replace the DIMM)"

The acid test will be performed in a week or two when my daughter who's got the same MBP brings me the OEM DIMMs I uninstalled when she bought it.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/04/22 06:01 PM
I agree completely that running Catalina on an elderly Mac with only 4 GB of RAM would likely be an exercise in frustration at best. Personally I would never attempt to run anything other than the Apple apps that "come in the box" with macOS on any 4 GB machine, and then I would expect poor performance. My focus on the DIMMs themselves arises out of the fact the "memory test" portion of the boot process takes place in firmware and once the alarm is raised, the boot process stops. The OS itself can't be loaded and therefore cannot be identified or tested so the Mac has no way of knowing what OS is installed.

From the sequence of events, it occurs to me your DIMMs might have been subject to ESD (Electro-Static Discharge) damage. It has happened to me in the past. All DIMMs are vulnerable and strict anti-static measures should be followed to prevent their being fried in handling. Testing using your daughter's DIMMs is a good idea, but under the circumstances, I would review anti-static handling procedures and follow them assiduously to be sure her DIMMs didn't get fried as well. (Now the questions are: "where did I put that anti-static mat and wristband, and do I still have any anti-static spray?" smile )
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/05/22 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
My focus on the DIMMs themselves arises out of the fact the "memory test" portion of the boot process takes place in firmware and once the alarm is raised, the boot process stops. The OS itself can't be loaded and therefore cannot be identified or tested so the Mac has no way of knowing what OS is installed.
I'm still hanging my hat on your item 4: "A DIMM module performing below or at the lower end of the specification range (replace the DIMM)" Even if whatever arcane diagnostic routine a machine goes through pre-boot can't determine which version of macOS it's being asked to boot, can't it still determine that whichever version it's being asked to boot is beyond the DIMMs' capability?

Originally Posted by joemikeb
From the sequence of events, it occurs to me your DIMMs might have been subject to ESD (Electro-Static Discharge) damage. It has happened to me in the past. All DIMMs are vulnerable and strict anti-static measures should be followed to prevent their being fried in handling. Testing using your daughter's DIMMs is a good idea, but under the circumstances, I would review anti-static handling procedures and follow them assiduously to be sure her DIMMs didn't get fried as well. (Now the questions are: "where did I put that anti-static mat and wristband, and do I still have any anti-static spray?" smile )
I've worked on HDDs, SSDs, and DIMMs any number of times without having fried anything, which, of course, is no guarantee that I didn't do so this time, but I did handle the 8 GB DIMMs immediately after the 4 GBs "beeped," and I had no problem with them. (I'm sure there's some way to test DIMMs definitively, but I'm equally sure that the means to do it are beyond my ability to access.)

And while we're scratching our heads, here's an interesting question: Assuming that the DIMMs haven't been fried - which I am - why did the machine boot with them before I changed the HDD, but not afterwards?

I wonder if this qualifies as a "unified" theory of all that was wrong with Rita's MBP: I've already established - by both booting from my external and deleting a large chunk of data from the MBP's internal - that "offloading" "load" from the HDD improved performance, so I'll extrapolate from there and guess that the debilitated HDD diminished the OS's performance threshold by enough to raise it above the DIMM's performance threshold...self-cancelling errors, so to speak.

And I think I'm going to copyright that as a pretzel recipe! laugh

Where is V1 when we need him? Too bad he doesn't check in any more. (It would be nice to give him - and let him know he's got - his own forum, same as MMT3 used to have, so he can check in periodically and immediately see if we could use his help.)
Posted By: joemikeb Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/05/22 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
I'm still hanging my hat on your item 4: "A DIMM module performing below or at the lower end of the specification range (replace the DIMM)" Even if whatever arcane diagnostic routine a machine goes through pre-boot can't determine which version of macOS it's being asked to boot, can't it still determine that whichever version it's being asked to boot is beyond the DIMMs' capability?

During the Intel boot process one of the very first steps is the memory test and any condition tht would raise an alarm immediately terminates the boot process so nothing is loaded.

QUESTION: are you getting a single beep or double beep every five seconds? A single beep indicates NO RAM detected, a double beep indicates RAM is detected but it fails the RAM performance test.

Originally Posted by artie505
I've worked on HDDs, SSDs, and DIMMs any number of times without having fried anything, which, of course, is no guarantee that I didn't do so this time, but I did handle the 8 GB DIMMs immediately after the 4 GBs "beeped," and I had no problem with them. (I'm sure there's some way to test DIMMs definitively, but I'm equally sure that the means to do it are beyond my ability to access.)

When I worked for Texas Instruments, even the software engineers were required to take annual ESD training. Part of that training demonstrated quite clearly that static discharges below the level humans can sense will fry a DIMM and even with good ESD procedures, accidents happen. As far as I know HDDs or SSDs are not subject to ESD damage. (getting hit by lightning excepted, but that would also result in significant physical damage as well.) Again when I worked for TI, we had equipment that could throughly test the entire performance range of DIMMs. Each test station cost 500 to 750 thousand dollars and that was half a century ago. I can't imagine what a DIMM test station would cost in 2022 but I know it is a bit beyond the range of amateurs.

Originally Posted by artie505
And while we're scratching our heads, here's an interesting question: Assuming that the DIMMs haven't been fried - which I am - why did the machine boot with them before I changed the HDD, but not afterwards?

confused All I can speculate is "stuff happens."

Originally Posted by artie505
I wonder if this qualifies as a "unified" theory of all that was wrong with Rita's MBP: I've already established - by both booting from my external and deleting a large chunk of data from the MBP's internal - that "offloading" "load" from the HDD improved performance, so I'll extrapolate from there and guess that the debilitated HDD diminished the OS's performance threshold by enough to raise it above the DIMM's performance threshold...self-cancelling errors, so to speak.

  1. There are any number of reasons and ways an HDD can negatively effect performance that would be mitigated by "off-loading" major chunks of data.
  2. Virtual memory swap files on that same HDD are critical to the operation of machines with small amounts of RAM
  3. Improving the peformance of the HDD will significantly improve the overall system performance of any computer, but especially on machines needing to make heavy use of VM swap files
  4. Could potentially make the difference in whether or not a given app can/will run
  5. Apple made significant changes in memory management techniques in Catalina including the switch to APFS for the boot drive and VM swap volumes
  6. APFS is optimized for SSDs and actually reduces the peformance of HDDs which exacerbates the previous negative performance factors
  7. under the circumstances off-loading files from the HDD would almost certainly result in improved system performance
  8. replacing the HDD with an SSD would have even more effect
  9. additional RAM would be even more efficacious


Originally Posted by artie505
And I think I'm going to copyright that as a pretzel recipe! laugh

More like a Gorgon's knot. smile
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/07/22 11:05 AM
Trying to post an uncomplicated response here...

I was getting the repeating 3 beeps. (The item 4 I keep referencing was listed under your description of that scenario.)

I wasn't suggesting that HDDs or SSDs can be fried, but entire machines can be fried if you don't discharge before trying to work on them.

I've been careful over the years and never fried anything, and I'm confident that I didn't do it this time either.

Granted that 16 GB RAM rather than 8 GB and a SSD rather than a HDD would greatly enhance the MBP, but there's a limit to how much money I was willing to invest in a machine that's already two versions of macOS beyond its limit and is going to spend virtually the entirety of the rest of its life in a drawer.

If it had been a Gordian pretzel, Alexander could have chewed his way through it...maybe even dressed it with mustard and sauerkraut. tongue
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/19/22 02:19 AM
I've finally gotten hold of my daughter's DIMMs, and they work a treat...no noticeable slowdown in either startup or response time.

Happily, I've got 2 or 3 days left in my Crucial window and was able to set up a return for a refund. Phew! Great timing.

Considering how many times I've handled DIMMs with no ill effects, I'm certain that Rita's original DIMMs died on their own, but, of course...
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/19/22 02:26 AM
[quote=artie505]I've finally gotten hold of my daughter's DIMMs, and they work a treat... Have you been watching Britbox a lot lately?
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/19/22 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by plantsower
[quote=artie505]I've finally gotten hold of my daughter's DIMMs, and they work a treat... Have you been watching Britbox a lot lately?
I've never heard of Britbox, but I can guess...

It's just a Brit expression that I've run across many times over the years and have always liked. I've used it many times in FTM posts.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/19/22 03:10 AM
Yes, it's a Brit thing and maybe other places. I didn't know you had ever used it.


I've never heard of Britbox, but I can guess...

It's just a Brit expression that I've run across many times over the years and have always liked. I've used it many times in FTM posts. [/quote]
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/19/22 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by plantsower
Yes, it's a Brit thing and maybe other places. I didn't know you had ever used it.
Originally Posted by artie
I've never heard of Britbox, but I can guess...

It's just a Brit expression that I've run across many times over the years and have always liked. I've used it many times in FTM posts.
You don't read every FTM post, so there are MANY to which I've responded that you've never seen.
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/19/22 04:11 AM
It's just a Brit expression that I've run across many times over the years and have always liked. I've used it many times in FTM posts. [/quote] [/quote]
You don't read every FTM post, so there are MANY to which I've responded that you've never seen. [/quote]

You're right. About the only posts I've seen of yours are answers to my questions. Otherwise, I don't spend a lot of time on FTM. I guess I only get to see one side of you! LOL!
Posted By: artie505 Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/19/22 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by plantsower
...I don't spend a lot of time on FTM. I guess I only get to see one side of you! LOL!
Then there's a coupl'a other sides that you're missing. laugh

Or, as the case may be, not missing at all!
Posted By: plantsower Re: FaceTime and Photo Booth - 06/19/22 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by plantsower
...I don't spend a lot of time on FTM. I guess I only get to see one side of you! LOL!
Then there's a coupl'a other sides that you're missing. laugh

Or, as the case may be, not missing at all!
smirk
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