I just upgraded to big Sur and my backups are not what they should be.

Time Machine is showing a couple of hundred GBs more than it should.

Carbon Copy Cloners is just non-functional. The three previous backups are no longer there. Also it seems to think Mojave is still around.

I'm assuming I need to start from scratch but the size of the data no the hard drive, couple with CCC's impression, make me wonder if I need to do something else first. The upgrade from Mojave to Big Sur increased the size the the main drive by about 120 GBs, and that just doesn't feel right.

Thoughts?

And, to add to the wonkiness, there are little things happening that just seem weird. For example, after the Big Sur update, the main drive had a list of Relocated Items. Now an attempt to open it gets the message "The operation can’t be completed because the original item for “Relocated Items” can’t be found."

Edit: Possible clue....one of my old 32 bit apps, Passwords Plus, still works. Could it be thinking that Mojave is still on the main drive?

The fact that a 32-bit app works indicates you do not have a 64-bit only operating system.

You might need to do a complete erase of the hard drive and reinstall of the newer system using System Recovery and then bring everything over via Time Machine during the new system installation process. I still maintain that with Time Machine as the source during restore for all your stuff you will not lose anything.

suggests that TM may not be the way to go.

I'd go with an erase/clean install (as you've suggested) combined with migration from the old iMac.

Update on Time Machine. It's on a 1TB drive and indicates only 73 GBs left, so it has clearly added 100's of GBs. Prior to the upgrade, my drive had less than 400 GBs on it.

By way of clarification...this is not my newer machine. This is still the old one, so a complete wipe becomes a dicey proposition. I had upgraded to Big Sur only to see if the new Quicken would work for me.

Just a thought. This machine is capable of going to Ventura. Would a Ventura install, using the System Preferences link, clean things up?

I'm confused.

Didn't you say that you want to give the old iMac to the grandkids but wipe it first?

Absolutely correct, and that's still the plan. I wanted to make sure everything was okay with this machine, like removing digital detritus, so that I would have the Time Machine as clean as possible if I was going to use it to populate the new machine. Definitely this machine is going to get wiped and get a fresh OS install, but I can't wipe it without knowing my stuff is okay.

So now I'm faced with getting this machine sorted out before I can get a reliable Time Machine. Or....

By this, do you mean forget about Time Machine altogether, boot the new machine (still in the box), and try to get my stuff from this machine Mac-to-Mac? I'm not clear on how that would be done, given that Migration Assistant doesn't seem to offer options other than entire accounts, all Files and Folders, et cetera. Wouldn't I be taking a chance on porting over all the problems? So, to my earlier question...

Would the Venture install get rid of all existing system stuff, whether Mojave or Big Sur?

Although the Time Machine drive is jam packed, Disk Utility appears to tell a different story about what should be on the Time Machine drive:

• APFS System Snapshot - APFS
• macOS 11.7.2
* Used 15.32 GB
• Other Volumes 537.76 GB
• Free 474.6 GB
• 1.03 TB Shared by 5 volumes

• Capacity 1.03 TB
• Available 484.57 GB (9.96 purgeable)
• Used: 15.32 GB
• Type APFS System Snapshot
• Owners: Diabled
• Connection: PCI-Express
• Device: disk2s5s1
• Snapshot UUID: 9955E931-36BA-4A11-9EBB-B8FA2A6A9615

Possibly interesting bit of information....

I was just updating my Epson Scanner software and the Epson site "detected" OS 10.15.x instead of OS 11.7.2. Does that mean Mojave is hanging around?

1. Time Machine NO LONGER BACKS UP OR RESTORES SYSTEM FILES.
2. Carbon Copy Cloner NO LONGER BACKS UP OR RESTORES SYSTEM FILES.
3. Restoring the System is accomplished by booting from the Recovery Drive and re-installing the OS.

Without full hands on access to your systems potentially for several hours, I can only make a W.A.G. about the what or how of either of your backups much less whether or not they could be relied on. It is highly doubtful that any such analysis would be productive. What would be productive is restoring your old system to a stable, clean operating state for your grandkids and getting your new system up and running with your data.

• If, by any chance, you have your data and especially your Desktop and Documents folders synchronized with iCloud, Boot up your NEW computer, recreate your account and password, log on to your Apple ID, turn on iCloud synch and in a few hours you will be up and running with all your data and settings. Then erase the time machine drive and select it as the Time Machine drive on your new computer.
• Boot your OLD computer from the Recovery Drive, erase the hard drive, re-install the OS, and give the computer to your grandkids.

Have booted the new computer but can't see how I do that. There isn't even an iCloud icon in System Preferences.

I found Apple ID and added Desktop to the choices and it looks like the desktop is just appearing. However, I assume iCloud Sync, once I know how to find it, should update everything else (like my Mail, which shows zero messages), and also recreate my wife's account. Yes? No?

I have gotten the same thing from the Epson website when updating printer drivers. Apparently, Epson has not figured out how to detect the correct OS. When I did this, I clicked the arrow to select a different OS and OS 11 appeared. I then proceeded to download the driver. It installed with no issue.

Thank you for that but my concern wasn't Epson's ability to detect OS's. I wondered if their detection of OS 10.15 was evidence that Mojave was still on the hard drive. i.e. Did the Big Sur installation fail to remove the existing OS?

I was aware of those facts, which caused me to wonder why TM and CCC now want to copy material that is vastly more than previously. There has not been a dramatic increase in the non-system material.

Important Question

I am able to connect the two machines via an ethernet cable. If I do that, and then instruct Migration Assistant to bring over my account and my wife's account, will it do so without any of the system stuff that appears to be the issue?

That's unlikely. Epson's failure, in my case, was theirs alone and not a faulty OS installation.

I don't think an ethernet connection will work.

I think you'll have to boot the source iMac into FireWire target disk mode (or its current equivalent) and connect it to the destination via USB or one of the other protocols.

Once you do that, you can instruct MA to migrate only your accounts.

Question: Have you examined your old iMac with a "where has my space gone" app such as DaisyDisk for Mac?

No, but that's an interesting suggestion.....first time I've heard about DaisyDisk. And, reciprocating with a question..."Will it identify two separate OS's, if they are present?

My preference would be to have the ability to take a good Time Machine backup drive and attach it to the new machine which, of course, means I need to know the TM has reliable information. I continue to be puzzled by the fact that "Get Info" says the TM drive has used 917GB of 999.86 GB capacity. However, "Get Info" says the computer's drive with a capacity of 1.03 TB has only used 555.96 GB.

Assuming the new computer is running Ventura you will find iCloud settings by...

1. Opening System Settings
2. clicking on Apple ID
3. click on iCloud
4. click on iCloud Options
5. Select the folders and applications you want to synchronize

Assuming it was synched in your old system, YES!

The new computer is running Monterey. Is this the show-stopper?

I did open ICloud anyway and all the boxes are checked but there is no button to initiate an action.

In my account, which is a new account required to boot the machine (it has a different name than my account on the old machine) most stuff is there except Mail. Mail is mostly vacant, which seems odd because that is the one thing definitely synched acroos the iMac, iPad and iPhone.

My wife's account is not there.

I may have found the answer to the TM problem.

I went to an Apple Reseller store and talked to a person there who had a reasonable explanation. He said the problem is an issue between Big Sur and previous operating systems, and the way they are structured. Time Machine "thinks" the Mojave system is still on the hard drive and therefore keeps the Mojave backup. Then, also on its drive, TM does a backup of the Big Sur system and all the files. Ergo it indicates much more information than is actually on the iMac hard drive and gets full very fast. He said that Apple has been aware of this issue for two years.

His suggestion was to erase the TM drive and do a new backup, then use that hard drive to establish the accounts et cetera on the newer iMac. I have done the new TM backup and its content is now equal in size to the iMac, and it is doing its regular backups.

Still outstanding question - need help with it.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that the folder with all my data files (brought over by Drag and Drop), is now on the desktop whereas it was previously always on the hard drive icon. How do i get it back there? Dragging and Dropping does not work.

I took a look at that problem in Ventura, and I was unable to either create a new folder at that location or drag one there.

The best I could do was under /Users.

I tried to create your folder in Terminal with "cd HD" followed by "makdir..." I had no luck...not even with "cd."

I dunno what's up, but man seems to have changed in Ventura, and I'm having all sorts of trouble working with it.

Even my old reliable Bwana app has stopped working.

With that minor edit, you got that last right!

I have no idea what you did, or why it failed but obviously it did fail. My suggestion is to start over and this time, do it Apple's way.

1. DO NOT MOVE ANYTHING VIA DRAG AND DROP
2. Disconnect the Time Machine drive from your old computer
3. Connect the Time Machine drive to your new computer
4. Follow these instructions to boot your new Mac into the Recovery Drive mode
5. From the Utilities menu on the Recovery Drive launch Disk Utility
6. Select Macintosh HD (the Volume not the Drive itself
7. On the Disk Utility menu select Erase
8. Choose GUID partition scheme and APFS as the format
9. Click Erase
10. Quit Disk Utility
11. Launch Install macOS and follow the instructions until it asks if you want to recover from a Time Machine backup
12. Choose the Time Machine drive
13. Choose all the restore options
14. Go watch a good movie on TV for a few (2 or 3) hours
15. When the installer and Migration Assistant have completed, your system will reboot from Macintosh HD and all of your and your wife's data files will have been restored.
16. Log onto your account and trash the "Recovered files"folder on your desktop, if it exists.
17. Launch System Settings > Time Machine and choose the Time Machine Drive
18. When asked if you want to assign the Time Machine backups on the drive to the new computer, answer in the affirmative.
19. Enjoy your new iMac.

ryck was trying to restore a "Data" folder to the TOP level of his iMac, i.e., the same level as /Apps.

I'm not sure how he got it there in the first place, nor was I able in any way, shape, or form of which I'm aware to create such a folder on my MBP. (The best I could was get a new "Data" folder into /Users.)

Will Time Machine be able to do the job, or is it simply precluded in current macOS versions?

That folder should NOT be trashed until it's been looked into and it's been determined that nothing in it is important.

It has contained pretty much the same files every time I've examined it, but on one occasion I got careless/lazy and wound up trashing the part of Keychain Access that contained my self-installed passwords.

AAARGH!!!

The instructions that followed have worked and the newer computer is now the same as the old. There are still a few things to do, like decommissioning MS Office on one and recommissioning it on the other, but things otherwise seem to be okay. Except....I'd sure like to get that Data folder showing up on the HD icon instead of the Desktop.

There are a few items like the Epson Scanner not wanting to work with the new OS but I'll start separate issue-specific threads.

Thank-you.

I too am curious about the Data folder showing up on your desktop. In Ventura, Monterey, Big Sur, and Catalina there is no default Data folder, but there is a Data Volume where all user folders, settings, and documents are stored. It is the only volume on the boot drive that you have read & write access to. Depending on Finder settings it may appear in the Finder sidebar, but not on the Desktop itself.

Just to satisfy my curiosity would you do a Get Info on the errant Data folder and post a screenshot of the resulting Get Info window? A screenshot of the Disk Utility sidebar might also help clear up the issue.

As I read it, ryck is talking about a folder he created that is called and contains data.

I can't begin to guess how many versions of the OS ago it was, but I remember being able to add items to the top level of my Mac as /Whatever.

It sounds like ryck's Data folder was created under those circumstances but has now run afoul of a new restriction which has resulted in its being relocated to his desktop for lack of a better alternative.

I have seen a window with Data Folder and, beneath it, Data Volume.... but don't recall where.

I've never had success in posting at FTM, despite following instructions, so I'll just list what's in the two Get Info windows. FYI, I still have both machines running as I have a conflicting Zoom meetings on Thursday and need one machine to record one meeting while I attend the other. The Get Infor information is the same on both machines.

Get Info for "Data Folder" on the Desktop

Kind: Folder
Size: 141,021,712,721 bytes (141.68 GB on disk for 68,639 items)
Where: iCloud Drive - Desktop
Created: January 19, 2023 at 1:37 PM
Modified: January 23, 2023 at 6:26 PM
Shared Folder: Not checked
Locked: Not checked
More Info:
Last opened: January 23,2023 at 1:19 PM
Name and Extension:
Data
Comments: None
Preview: An image of a folder
Sharing and Permissions:
You can read and write
...followed by
Name Privilege
My Name Read & Write
staff Read Only
everyone Read Only


Get Info for "Disk Utility.app" on the Desktop

Kind: Application (Universal)
Size: 8,492,624 bytes (8.7 MB on disk)
Where: Mac HDD - Applications - Utilities
Created: January 1, 2020 at 12:00 AM
Modified: January 1, 2020 at 12:00 AM
Version: 20.1
Copyright: 2015-2021 Apple Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Open in low resolution not checked
More Info:
Last opened: January 24,2023 at 1:48 AM
Name and Extension:
Disk Utility.app
Comments: None
Preview: The Disk Utility icon
Sharing and Permissions:
You have custom access
...followed by
Name Privilege
system Read & Write
wheel Read Only
everyone Read Only

Just to get back to square one, what are the contents of your Data folder that used to be at the top level of your iMac but is now on your desktop?

If, as I believe you said at the get-go, they're simply YOUR data, joemike is off on a wild goose chase, i.e., your Data VOLUME has nothing to do with your issue, and your answer is what I've been saying: The folder, presumably because of some change in macOS, can no longer inhabit its original location, and the OS has relocated it to your desktop.

If I'm correct, you've got two options: You can either leave it on your desktop or create a new folder in /Users and populate it with your data.

And if not...Never mind.

These data are MY data. i.e. various documents I have accumulated over the years and which I must keep.

That would be preferable, particularly if it helps applications 'find' the Data folder. Right now I am having to save documents to the desktop and then Drag & Drop into the Data folder....a giant pain.

As the Users now reside on the hard drive, and I can't Drag and Drop to the hard drive, how would I get the Data folder to a folder in Users?

Whether I am on a wild goose chase or not, Get Info on the unmovable Data might yield information on WHY the folder is unmovable and lead to a solution that would make it movable.

My fingers are crossed.

I missed the part about the folder's being unmovable (so yeah, Get Info may help), and I've looked, but can't find it. (Someone please direct me.)

I thought the problem with which we're currently dealing is simply that the folder can't, via drag & drop or otherwise, be moved from the desktop to the top level of ryck's iMac.

So, ryck, please clear up my confusion, and restate the current problem, including which desktop - i.e., which iMac - the folder is on, and where it needs to be relocated to. Thanks.

The computer is the newer.....

iMac (Retina 5K, 27 inch, 2020)
Processor 3.8 GHz 8-Core Intel Core i7
Memory 8GB 2667 MHz DDR4
1 TB SSD

The file called Data is an icon on the desktop beside the Macintosh HD icon.

Double-clicking on the HD shows four folders:

Applications
Library
System
Users

I would like to move the Data folder onto the HD so that it shows five folders, the way it was on the old iMac.

Applications
Library
System
Users
Data

OK, that's precisely what I thought we were after.

As far as I can tell, that's no longer possible in Ventura, but I've got no idea in which version of the OS the capability was lost.

Unless there's some arcane method to move your folder to the top level of your iMac using Terminal, you appear to be stuck with either having to leave your folder on your desktop or moving it to some other location.

As I said, it can be moved to /Users, but if it's something you access frequently, leaving it on your desktop seems to be a better idea.

Here's an updated rewrite of my previous post...

OK, that's precisely what I thought we were after.

As far as I can tell, that's no longer possible in my Ventura, and, apparently, whichever earlier version of macOS you're running, but I've got no idea in which version of the OS the capability was lost.

Unless there's some arcane method to move your folder to the top level of your iMac using Terminal, you appear to be stuck with either leaving it on your desktop or moving it to some other location such as /Users, with a symbolic link for easy access on your desktop.

Hmmm... I didn't pay close attention to what joemike had you do, so this may be a dead issue already: There's an outside possibility that an upgrade of your original installation will perpetuate "Data's" original location. I'm basing my guess on the fact that I've got one kext still running that has been perpetuated only via upgrades. Migration Assistant is unable to do the job with a new installation.

What you see in Finder in Ventura is not the actual physical layout of the Macintosh HD partition and volumes rather it is the logical structure of the sealed and encrypted Macintosh HD snapshot that is the actual bootable system. It is carefully curated by Apple to appear to the user much like the structure of earlier versions of macOS. On my systems the Data volume per. se. does not appear as a separate entity anywhere except in Disk Utility, or more accurately, when I look at Macintosh HD what the system shows me is actually the contents of the Data volume. However, that does not explain why there is a Data volume icon (it is a volume not a folder although they appear similar) is appearing on your desktop.

Artie is absolutely correct, what you want is no longer possible. Ventura is hard-coded to prevent it.

What about Monterey? That's what I'm running on the newer machine. 12.6.3

That's why I kinda waffled...because I'm not certain about Monterey.

It's now occurred to me to boot into my Monterey clone and test.

Later...

At one point in this discussion ryck said that the Data folder was a folder he created to hold a variety of stuff of his choosing and creation. Could this be as simple (hah!) as a name "conflict". "Data" is the name of the Apple created volume that did not exist as such in the recent past, but does now. Change the name?

Replying to you and ryck...

When I finally got my MBP booted into my Monterey clone (after reinstalling Ventura...don't ask) I wasn't able to either create a new folder in or drag anything to the top level of my Mac.

And under any circumstances, there was no "Data" volume in Monterey. It didn't appear until Ventura.

We now have more clues, and possibly a solution. I didn’t notice before but there is a very small iCloud icon under the Data folder on the desktop.

Here what I have done:

1. Double-clicked on the HD where there were 4 folders: Applications, Library. System, Users.

2. Clicked on Users and then on the one with my name.

3. Created a folder in that User called “New Data”

4. Dragged a single item from the Desktop to the “New Data” folder and it remained.

5. That item opens by double-clicking



Now it gets interesting….. I figured: If a single file can move from the Desktop to the User, maybe an entire folder can.

1. I tried dragging the “Data” folder from the Desktop into the “New Data” folder in my user account. I got this message:

Are you sure you want to remove “Data” from iCloud Drive?

This item will be moved to this Mac and will no longer be available in iCloud Drive on any of your devices.

I did not continue, thinking I should wait to get confirmation it’ll be okay. If the only downside is that I don’t have that folder on my iPad or iPhone, I don’t care.

2. As a test, I tried moving the “New Data” folder from the user account to the hard drive. I got this message:

Finder

Finder wants to move “New Data”. Enter your password to allow this.

I cancelled, preferring to wait for an opinion.

I just realized something new in Ventura that I had not picked up on previously, and if I am correct it is the answer to what is going on with your mystery folder, but first I need the answer to four questions.

1. Is System Settings > Apple ID > iCloud > iCloud Drive > turned ON?
2. If it is turned ON click on Options and see if Desktop and Documents folders is checked
3. Click on the Data folder in question and the press ⌘I. The resulting Get Info window should look something like this. What Kind of file is it? Where is it?

What I suspect is going to be difficult to explain so I will postpone the explanation and the fix until I get the answer to my questions, but I urge you not to do anything yet, there may be a risk of major data loss or corruption with what you are proposing.

ryck's running Monterey, not Ventura. Does that make any difference in your thinking?

I don't see any reason why you can't drag Data to New Data; it's more or less, if not exactly, what I've been suggesting. I'd create an alias or symbolic link on my desktop to make access easier, though.

But I've got zero knowledge of iCloud Drive, so I've got to pass on that aspect of your question.

I've tried to move the equivalent of your New Data folder to the top level of my drive in Catalina, Monterey, and Ventura and gotten a "Prohibited" sign in all three.

What I did find, however was that I could duplicate your experience by trying to move the folder to /Users, i.e., the next level down from /HD, which wouldn't accomplish anything helpful to your situation.

My apologies this is taking so long, but I think in attempting to force macOS to be organized like earlier versions of OS X you have accidentally created a Gordion knot that is going to be difficult to untie and may require cutting. If I were sitting at your keyboard, I could verify my suspicions in minutes, but since I am not at your keyboard it is going to take some time. I strongly suspect at this point you have an [i]endless loop[/p] situation where the folder you are trying to delete/move is contained in the folder your are trying to delete/move. But the what and why are not the objective, the objective is to solve the problem. That said, I will reiterate, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET BACK TO APPLICATIONS, LIBRARY, SYSTEM, USERS, AND DATA ON YOUR HARD DRIVE WITHOUT GOING BACK TO AN EARLIER VERSION OF MACOS (I am not sure how far back you would have to go, maybe as far back as Catalina.) However, you can easily get to something like this.

If that would satisfy you, the only issue remaining is getting rid of the problematic Data folder.

I wasn't able to do it in Catalina (last night). I've done similar in the past, but I've got no idea how long ago I last did it.

I'm confused, though, about "getting rid of the problematic Data folder." What is the problem?

Back at you. A bunch of personal stuff has taken my time, but I have been making some observations and should have some pertinent questions soon.

That'll be one of my questions. One of my observations is that it no longer has the little white iCloud icon under it.

Just to let you both know this is not a forgot thread....I have been making some progress (an interesting voyage) and, so far, there's no smoke coming out of the iMac vents. I hope to report soon.