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Posted By: ryck Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/09/20 12:55 PM
My wife and I have separate accounts on our computer. However, in my account, I am experiencing a slowness while my wife's account is operating normally.

When I log-in, the first application selected will take a very long time to load. For example, Safari or Apple Mail will take nearly 1.5 minutes before they are functional. Excel will take nearly 3 minutes. In my wife's account, these load and function instantly.

When I log-out, my account will take nearly 45 seconds to get to the log-in window, but my wife's account gets there immediately.

So far, once the first application to be loaded has gone through the excruciating wait, others seem to load normally.

Thoughts? - other than "Use your wife's account" smile
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/09/20 07:27 PM
Several possibilities occur:
  • At the top of my list would be what do you have running in the background? Check ~/Library/LaunchAgents, (where ~/ is Unix shorthand for your home folder) and System Preferences > Users & Groups > Login Items. Don't worry about anything in /Library as those are common to both you and your wife.
  • Another thought is corrupted user cache files. This OS X Daily article will walk you through clearing you user cache files. Don't worry, they will be rebuilt.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/10/20 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Check ~/Library/LaunchAgents, (where ~/ is Unix shorthand for your home folder)
I assume you mean the folder in the Users folder, which is an icon of a house.

The Library is an invisible file so I used Command/Shift/Period to view and the LaunchAgent folder contains only one file - com.dropbox.DropboxMacUpdate.agent.plist

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Don't worry about anything in /Library as those are common to both you and your wife.
I figured, if I was poking around anyway, I’d take a quick look there too. The LaunchAgent folder has a bunch of plists but I do note that one has a very strange name - com.adobe.ARMDCHelper.cc24aef4a1b90ed56a725c38014c95072f92651fb65e1bf9c8e43c37a23d420d.plist

Originally Posted by joemikeb
……Check System Preferences > Users & Groups > Login Items.
This list has five items with the cautionary yellow triangle and all are described as Kind Unknown. None has an icon other than the ‘blank sheet’. They are:

AdobeResourceSynchronizer
Canon IJ Network Scanner
TrackballWorksHelper
Microsoft AU Daemon
DiskWarriorStarter

Note: There is a second “DiskWarriorStarter” item with a proper icon and it is described as “Application”

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Another thought is corrupted user cache files.
I own Cocktail so I used it to clear my User Cache files. Cocktail came back with a dialogue box that said “Unable to clear all caches. Some caches have not been properly cleared. See Activity Log for details.” The log said:

2020-08-14 18:51:07.796 Cocktail[1340:37631] Cocktail 12.5.0 (Mojave Edition) launched.
2020-08-14 18:51:08.341 Cocktail[1340:37631] myname authenticated.
2020-08-14 18:51:53.617 Cocktail[1340:37631] Launch Services database has been rebuilt.
2020-09-05 05:23:04.377 Cocktail[7553:211709] Cocktail 12.5.0 (Mojave Edition) launched.
2020-09-05 05:23:04.924 Cocktail[7553:211709] myname authenticated.
2020-09-05 05:23:55.085 Cocktail[7553:211709] Launch Services database has been rebuilt.
2020-09-09 15:51:09.168 Cocktail[1195:37738] Cocktail 12.5.0 (Mojave Edition) launched.
2020-09-09 15:51:09.692 Cocktail[1195:37738] myname authenticated.
2020-09-09 15:51:19.524 Cocktail[1195:37738] Could not get path to main bundle.
2020-09-09 15:56:27.960 Cocktail[1195:37738] Inactive memory has been purged.
2020-09-10 06:32:17.314 Cocktail[3961:161187] Cocktail 12.5.0 (Mojave Edition) launched.
2020-09-10 06:32:17.718 Cocktail[3961:161187] myname authenticated.
2020-09-10 06:33:23.638 Cocktail[3961:161187] User caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:23.939 Cocktail[3961:161187] ColorSync caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:24.241 Cocktail[3961:161187] Dictation & Speech caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:24.543 Cocktail[3961:161187] Dock caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:25.460 Cocktail[3961:161187] Help caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:26.047 Cocktail[3961:161187] Unable to clear QuickLook caches. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:26.349 Cocktail[3961:161187] QuickTime caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:26.704 Cocktail[3961:161187] Unable to clear Spotlight caches. (User). Operation not permitted while System Integrity Protection is engaged. For more information about System Integrity Protection, go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Integrity_Protection.
2020-09-10 06:33:27.151 Cocktail[3961:161187] VoiceOver caches have been cleared. (User)

Additional Information:

Again, since I was poking around anyway, I looked at Corrupted Preferences in Cocktail. It came up with:

/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Copy
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.EPSON
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.EPSON
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Easy
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Epson
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Epson
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Epson
/Users/myname/Library/Preferences/com.apple.AddressBook.plist

Last edited by ryck; 09/10/20 10:58 AM. ET
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/10/20 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
I assume you mean the folder in the Users folder, which is an icon of a house.
Yes.

Originally Posted by ryck
The Library is an invisible file so I used Command/Shift/Period to view and the LaunchAgent folder contains only one file - com.dropbox.DropboxMacUpdate.agent.plist
I figured, if I was poking around anyway, I’d take a quick look there too. The LaunchAgent folder has a bunch of plists but I do note that one has a very strange name - com.adobe.ARMDCHelper.cc24aef4a1b90ed56a725c38014c95072f92651fb65e1bf9c8e43c37a23d420d.plist

For more information on ARMDCHelper look here.

Originally Posted by ryck
This list has five items with the cautionary yellow triangle and all are described as Kind Unknown. None has an icon other than the ‘blank sheet’. They are:

AdobeResourceSynchronizer
Canon IJ Network Scanner
TrackballWorksHelper
Microsoft AU Daemon
DiskWarriorStarter

the yeallow triangle means the appllication listed either cannot be found where it was when it was added to the Login Items list or possibly that the app will not launch. See if you can find any of these apps, they are usually located in /Applications or ~/Applications and may be in sub folders therein. If the apps are there and not launching it probably means the apps are not compatible with the version of MacOS you are running and need to be updated. All appear to be apps supporting specific devices or applications but since the have the yellow triangle they are not being launched. You can remove them from your login items list without breaking anything.


Originally Posted by ryck
Note: There is a second “DiskWarriorStarter” item with a proper icon and it is described as “Application”

That one is working. Leave it alone.

Originally Posted by ryck
I own Cocktail so I used it to clear my User Cache files. Cocktail came back with a dialogue box that said “Unable to clear all caches. Some caches have not been properly cleared. See Activity Log for details.” The log said:


2020-09-10 06:33:23.638 Cocktail[3961:161187] User caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:23.939 Cocktail[3961:161187] ColorSync caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:24.241 Cocktail[3961:161187] Dictation & Speech caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:24.543 Cocktail[3961:161187] Dock caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:25.460 Cocktail[3961:161187] Help caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:26.047 Cocktail[3961:161187] Unable to clear QuickLook caches. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:26.349 Cocktail[3961:161187] QuickTime caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-10 06:33:26.704 Cocktail[3961:161187] Unable to clear Spotlight caches. (User). Operation not permitted while System Integrity Protection is engaged. For more information about System Integrity Protection, go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Integrity_Protection.
2020-09-10 06:33:27.151 Cocktail[3961:161187] VoiceOver caches have been cleared. (User)

Did that help?

Originally Posted by ryck
Additional Information:

Again, since I was poking around anyway, I looked at Corrupted Preferences in Cocktail. It came up with:

/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Copy
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.EPSON
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.EPSON
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Easy
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Epson
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Epson
/Library/Preferences/com.epson.Epson
/Users/myname/Library/Preferences/com.apple.AddressBook.plist

That check is a based on a command line function that checks the files to be sure they are "consistent and fully comply with Apple's guidelines for MacOS". The fact some don't comply doesn't necessarily mean they are corrupted or invalid, just that they don't comply with Apple's standard. Given the first seven are all from Epson, along with the fact Epson tends to march to their own drummer, leads me to believe that is probably the case. Com.apple.AddressBook.plist definitely should comply with the standard, however. The fix would be to deleteCom.apple.AddressBook.plist and allow Contacts to recreate it. You can then go into Contacts > Preferences and make any changes you wish.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/10/20 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by ryck
This list has five items with the cautionary yellow triangle and all are described as Kind Unknown. None has an icon other than the ‘blank sheet’. They are:

AdobeResourceSynchronizer
Canon IJ Network Scanner
TrackballWorksHelper
Microsoft AU Daemon
DiskWarriorStarter

the yeallow triangle means the appllication listed either cannot be found where it was when it was added to the Login Items list or possibly that the app will not launch. See if you can find any of these apps, they are usually located in /Applications or ~/Applications and may be in sub folders therein.

If you're stuck for their locations, control-clicking on any of those items will call up a "Show in Finder" option. I'll guess that most, if not all of them will turn out to be located in the "Contents" of the apps they support rather than freestanding items.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 05:43 PM
Still no joy in Mudville.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
the yellow triangle means the application listed either cannot be found where it was when it was added to the Login Items list or possibly that the app will not launch. See if you can find any of these apps, they are usually located in /Applications or ~/Applications and may be in sub folders therein. If the apps are there and not launching it probably means the apps are not compatible with the version of MacOS you are running and need to be updated. All appear to be apps supporting specific devices or applications but since the have the yellow triangle they are not being launched. You can remove them from your login items list without breaking anything.

AdobeResourceSynchronizer

Could not find.

Canon IJ Network Scanner

Canon Applications folder had two “Scanner” folders (Utility and Selector) but neither of the applications could locate my printer.

TrackballWorksHelper

Could not locate a TrackBall folder but did have the TrackBallWorks dmg. However, it would not open …got message “”Kensington TrackBallWorks.pkg” can’t be opened because it is from an unidentified developer. Your security preferences allow installation of only apps from the App Store and identified developers.”

Microsoft AU Daemon

Could not find this in the Microsoft Office 11 folder or in any of the nested folders.

DiskWarriorStarter

As directed have left the good one in place.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
If the apps are there and not launching it probably means the apps are not compatible with the version of MacOS you are running and need to be updated. All appear to be apps supporting specific devices or applications but since the have the yellow triangle they are not being launched. You can remove them from your login items list without breaking anything.
• I only use Adobe to read PDFs and it isn’t failing.
• My printer works fine although I seldom use the scanner function as I have an Epson scanner.
• The Kensington TrackBall works fine.
• I mostly use Word and Excel and both work fine (although MS keeps saying I should update). I note that the MS apps are much slower to load than Apple’s, such as Safari.
• DiskWarrior is an unknown as V5 does not work anyway with my system.

I tend to keep things updated - that is, the apps I regularly use. However, I do have a number of apps (other than those shown above) that are seldom, if ever, used. I wonder if I should go through them with CleanApp and trash the ones not generally used.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
That check is a based on a command line function that checks the files to be sure they are "consistent and fully comply with Apple's guidelines for MacOS". The fact some don't comply doesn't necessarily mean they are corrupted or invalid, just that they don't comply with Apple's standard. Given the first seven are all from Epson, along with the fact Epson tends to march to their own drummer, leads me to believe that is probably the case. Com.apple.AddressBook.plist definitely should comply with the standard, however. The fix would be to deleteCom.apple.AddressBook.plist and allow Contacts to recreate it. You can then go into Contacts > Preferences and make any changes you wish.

In ~/Library/Contacts > Preferences I found many more “Address Book” plists so, knowing that plists rebuild after a reboot, I turfed them all.

com.apple.AddressBook.abd.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.plist.Dgasgj0
com.apple.AddressBook.plist.MOPrw2t
com.apple.AddressBook.plist.UB6BQ3E
com.apple.AddressBook.sync.plist
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Still no joy in Mudville.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
the yellow triangle means the application listed either cannot be found where it was when it was added to the Login Items list or possibly that the app will not launch. See if you can find any of these apps, they are usually located in /Applications or ~/Applications and may be in sub folders therein. If the apps are there and not launching it probably means the apps are not compatible with the version of MacOS you are running and need to be updated. All appear to be apps supporting specific devices or applications but since the have the yellow triangle they are not being launched. You can remove them from your login items list without breaking anything.

AdobeResourceSynchronizer

Could not find.

Canon IJ Network Scanner

Canon Applications folder had two “Scanner” folders (Utility and Selector) but neither of the applications could locate my printer.

TrackballWorksHelper

Could not locate a TrackBall folder but did have the TrackBallWorks dmg. However, it would not open …got message “”Kensington TrackBallWorks.pkg” can’t be opened because it is from an unidentified developer. Your security preferences allow installation of only apps from the App Store and identified developers.”

Microsoft AU Daemon

Could not find this in the Microsoft Office 11 folder or in any of the nested folders.

DiskWarriorStarter

As directed have left the good one in place.

Did you look for those items using the "Show in Finder" option, or just on your own?

Most, if not all of them sound like they're in Your app > Contents, which are not readily visible.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Did you look for those items using the "Show in Finder" option, or just on your own?
I looked for them on my own. I couldn't use Finder as I moved too quickly on removing them from the Log In list. Drat!
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
Did you look for those items using the "Show in Finder" option, or just on your own?
I looked for them on my own. I couldn't use Finder as I moved too quickly on removing them from the Log In list. Drat!

If you're really curious, you can boot into your clone if you haven't updated it already.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
AdobeResourceSynchronizer

Could not find.

Canon IJ Network Scanner

Canon Applications folder had two “Scanner” folders (Utility and Selector) but neither of the applications could locate my printer.

TrackballWorksHelper

Could not locate a TrackBall folder but did have the TrackBallWorks dmg. However, it would not open …got message “”Kensington TrackBallWorks.pkg” can’t be opened because it is from an unidentified developer. Your security preferences allow installation of only apps from the App Store and identified developers.”

Microsoft AU Daemon

Could not find this in the Microsoft Office 11 folder or in any of the nested folders.

Those were yellow flagged and had a blank file type so they were not being loaded and therefore unlikely to have any impact on performance unless there is an application or applications that are searching for them when they launch.

Originally Posted by ryck
DiskWarriorStarter

As directed have left the good one in place.

• DiskWarrior is an unknown as V5 does not work anyway with my system.

Since it does not work on your system then Why not delete it? It is useless.

Originally Posted by ryck
I tend to keep things updated - that is, the apps I regularly use. However, I do have a number of apps (other than those shown above) that are seldom, if ever, used. I wonder if I should go through them with CleanApp and trash the ones not generally used.

Periodically, I go thorough a spate of housecleaning, usually just before of just after a major MacOS upgrade. My rule is if I can't remember what an app does or the last time I used it, it goes. Probably doesn't help performance, but it sure cuts down on the distractions and makes it easier to locate what I really need.

Originally Posted by ryck
In ~/Library/Contacts > Preferences I found many more “Address Book” plists so, knowing that plists rebuild after a reboot, I turfed them all.

com.apple.AddressBook.abd.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.plist
com.apple.AddressBook.plist.Dgasgj0
com.apple.AddressBook.plist.MOPrw2t
com.apple.AddressBook.plist.UB6BQ3E
com.apple.AddressBook.sync.plist

Since those were all under the Contacts umbrella, you are probably okay, but not all plists are preference files and not all plists are automatically recreated. For example, LaunchAgents and LaunchDaemons are all property list files with the .plist file extension. So you should not delete files with the .plist extension cavalierly.

Since you are still faced with slow loading another thing to try is launching Activity Monitor and watch it while launching other applications to see if you can get a clue about the slow launching from it. Look for apps that may be spiking in CPU, Memory, or Disk use when an app is loading,

NOTE: Activity Monitor will use a lot of CPU cycles but you can discount that as you are only sunning it for test purposes.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Periodically, I go thorough a spate of housecleaning, usually just before of just after a major MacOS upgrade. My rule is if I can't remember what an app does or the last time I used it, it goes. Probably doesn't help performance, but it sure cuts down on the distractions and makes it easier to locate what I really need.

If you've never tried it, sort ~/Library/Preferences in list view and by Date Modified, and take a look at the bottom of the list, i.e. what was modified LEAST recently.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
Did you look for those items using the "Show in Finder" option, or just on your own?
I looked for them on my own. I couldn't use Finder as I moved too quickly on removing them from the Log In list. Drat!

If you're really curious, you can boot into your clone if you haven't updated it already.
Okay....so now we're getting into "weird events". I have a weekly clone that I booted with and then attempted to use the Control-Click to see the items in the Finder. It didn't work at all but, after I booted back into my main drive system, things were back to normal. Logging out and booting apps are now within a few seconds. Since I have no idea what happened, I'll cross my fingers and hope this status remains.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by ryck
I tend to keep things updated - that is, the apps I regularly use. However, I do have a number of apps (other than those shown above) that are seldom, if ever, used. I wonder if I should go through them with CleanApp and trash the ones not generally used.

Periodically, I go thorough a spate of housecleaning, usually just before of just after a major MacOS upgrade. My rule is if I can't remember what an app does or the last time I used it, it goes. Probably doesn't help performance, but it sure cuts down on the distractions and makes it easier to locate what I really need.
Good advice, and that's what I'm about to do....sort of like getting rid of all that crap in the garage or the basement that you've stored away "just in case". With apps, it's sort of like being a digital hoarder.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/11/20 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Okay....so now we're getting into "weird events". I have a weekly clone that I booted with and then attempted to use the Control-Click to see the items in the Finder. It didn't work at all but, after I booted back into my main drive system, things were back to normal. Logging out and booting apps are now within a few seconds. Since I have no idea what happened, I'll cross my fingers and hope this status remains.
👌🤞
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/24/20 02:47 PM
I may have spoken too soon. This morning I had a repeat of previous slow loading, so....
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Check ~/Library/LaunchAgents, (where ~/ is Unix shorthand for your home folder)
Did that again and the only item is: “com.dropbox.DropboxMacUpdate.agent.plist”
Originally Posted by joemikeb
System Preferences > Users & Groups > Login Items.
Did this again and two items that were previously removed, have reappeared: DiskWarriorStarter and EyeTV Helper. Both are described as Kind-Unknown. I don’t understand why they would reappear as the applications for both were removed, using CleanApp, when I went through my drive looking for now unused applications.

I have removed both (using the "-" box in the window) so that the only ones remaining (described as applications and having proper icons) are DropBox, Canon IJ Network Scanner and CCC Agent User.
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Another thought is corrupted user cache files.
I used Cocktail to clear my User caches files but it came back with a report saying: “Unable to clear all caches. Some caches have not been properly cleared.”

I checked the Cocktail Activity Log, and it said:

2020-09-24 07:12:21.649 Cocktail[1798:50761] Cocktail 12.5.0 (Mojave Edition) launched.
2020-09-24 07:12:22.204 Cocktail[1798:50761] My Name authenticated.
2020-09-24 07:13:18.421 Cocktail[1798:50761] User caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-24 07:13:18.723 Cocktail[1798:50761] ColorSync caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-24 07:13:19.023 Cocktail[1798:50761] Dictation & Speech caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-24 07:13:19.325 Cocktail[1798:50761] Dock caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-24 07:13:20.233 Cocktail[1798:50761] Help caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-24 07:13:20.814 Cocktail[1798:50761] Unable to clear QuickLook caches. (User)
2020-09-24 07:13:21.118 Cocktail[1798:50761] QuickTime caches have been cleared. (User)
2020-09-24 07:13:21.456 Cocktail[1798:50761] Unable to clear Spotlight caches. (User). Operation not permitted while System Integrity Protection is engaged. For more information about System Integrity Protection, go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Integrity_Protection.
2020-09-24 07:13:21.899 Cocktail[1798:50761] VoiceOver caches have been cleared. (User)
Originally Posted by artie505
….sort ~/Library/Preferences in list view and by Date Modified, and take a look at the bottom of the list, i.e. what was modified LEAST recently.
In list view, the bottom three items, as listed, are:

widget-net.liquidx.AlbumArtWidget.plist
Windows Media Favorites (without a .plist designation)
ZoomChat.plist

The Finder View also shows things that may/may not be pertinent…but certainly seem strange.

The top of the list is 9 empty folders, one of which has an !

These are followed by a very large number of items that are greyed-out and have odd names like: “.”, “.ado.NiHPrHrHCe”, "dat.nosync0d04.NPIQ.JG”, “ED79F650-F474-47C9-BA6A-283561305DEB”

There’s an extremely large number of not-greyed-out preferences, many of which are for applications no longer residing on the drive. There are also some strangely named Folders like “ê–+Ò£x” but which are empty.

I could go on but I’m sure you get the gist.

And, to make things even more curious...after leaving the Finder View and going back to the Forums page, all the Thread and Posts data were repeated in Red, in Brackets, for every Forum.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/25/20 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by joemikeb
System Preferences > Users & Groups > Login Items.
Did this again and two items that were previously removed, have reappeared: DiskWarriorStarter and EyeTV Helper. Both are described as Kind-Unknown. I don’t understand why they would reappear as the applications for both were removed, using CleanApp, when I went through my drive looking for now unused applications.

I have removed both (using the "-" box in the window) so that the only ones remaining (described as applications and having proper icons) are DropBox, Canon IJ Network Scanner and CCC Agent User.

I don't know why they'd reappear after having been removed unless they were restored by plists that CleanApp missed.

See Easy Find Leftovers

Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
….sort ~/Library/Preferences in list view and by Date Modified, and take a look at the bottom of the list, i.e. what was modified LEAST recently.
In list view, the bottom three items, as listed, are:

widget-net.liquidx.AlbumArtWidget.plist
Windows Media Favorites (without a .plist designation)
ZoomChat.plist

The Finder View also shows things that may/may not be pertinent…but certainly seem strange.

The top of the list is 9 empty folders, one of which has an !

These are followed by a very large number of items that are greyed-out and have odd names like: “.”, “.ado.NiHPrHrHCe”, "dat.nosync0d04.NPIQ.JG”, “ED79F650-F474-47C9-BA6A-283561305DEB”

There’s an extremely large number of not-greyed-out preferences, many of which are for applications no longer residing on the drive. There are also some strangely named Folders like “ê–+Ò£x” but which are empty.
I made that suggestion because plists last modified long ago may relate to apps no longer on your machine, but it doesn't have to be the bottom items.

Through Mojave, Finder had an annoying habit of creating spurious plists with odd names such as you've described and zero content. For what it's worth, I've deleted everything that's ever turned up in ~/Library/Prefs with zero content and never run into any problems.

You can, of course, delete any plist that's associated with any app that's no longer residing on your drive.

Do your grayed out items have any content? I've got nothing like them on my drive.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/25/20 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by joemikeb
System Preferences > Users & Groups > Login Items.
Did this again and two items that were previously removed, have reappeared: DiskWarriorStarter and EyeTV Helper. Both are described as Kind-Unknown. I don’t understand why they would reappear as the applications for both were removed, using CleanApp, when I went through my drive looking for now unused applications.

I have removed both (using the "-" box in the window) so that the only ones remaining (described as applications and having proper icons) are DropBox, Canon IJ Network Scanner and CCC Agent User.

I don't know why they'd reappear after having been removed unless they were restored by plists that CleanApp missed.

See [color:blue]Easy Find Leftovers
Good point. I had forgotten about that thread.

Originally Posted by artie505
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
….sort ~/Library/Preferences in list view and by Date Modified, and take a look at the bottom of the list, i.e. what was modified LEAST recently.
In list view, the bottom three items, as listed, are:

widget-net.liquidx.AlbumArtWidget.plist
Windows Media Favorites (without a .plist designation)
ZoomChat.plist

The Finder View also shows things that may/may not be pertinent…but certainly seem strange.

The top of the list is 9 empty folders, one of which has an !

These are followed by a very large number of items that are greyed-out and have odd names like: “.”, “.ado.NiHPrHrHCe”, "dat.nosync0d04.NPIQ.JG”, “ED79F650-F474-47C9-BA6A-283561305DEB”
Do your grayed out items have any content? I've got nothing like them on my drive.
None of the greyed-out items has the .plist designation, except in the text itself. All are TextEdit documents. I opened two at random and this is what they contained:

.dat.nosync0b6a.Mg1isY

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<dict>
<key>absentCircleWithNoReason</key>
<false/>
<key>applicationDate</key>
<date>0000-12-30T00:00:00Z</date>
<key>lastCircleStatus</key>
<integer>-1</integer>
<key>lastWritten</key>
<date>2018-10-25T22:47:18Z</date>
<key>pendingApplicationReminder</key>
<date>4001-01-01T00:00:00Z</date>
<key>pendingApplicationReminderInterval</key>
<integer>86400</integer>
</dict>
</plist>

.dat.nosync0f7b.doaAJo

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE plist PUBLIC "-//Apple//DTD PLIST 1.0//EN" "http://www.apple.com/DTDs/PropertyList-1.0.dtd">
<plist version="1.0">
<dict>
<key>absentCircleWithNoReason</key>
<false/>
<key>applicationDate</key>
<date>0000-12-30T00:00:00Z</date>
<key>lastCircleStatus</key>
<integer>0</integer>
<key>lastWritten</key>
<date>2019-12-15T20:27:58Z</date>
<key>pendingApplicationReminder</key>
<date>4001-01-01T00:00:00Z</date>
<key>pendingApplicationReminderInterval</key>
<integer>86400</integer>
</dict>
</plist>
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/25/20 04:15 PM
Obviously both of these files are in plist format, but as Artie already mentioned, not all plist (property lists) files were named the way we normally expect and many files that use the plist format that are not property lists. For example LaunchAgents and LaunchDaemons both use the plist format. Their reappearance after deletion leads me to suspect they are under SIP (System Integrity Protection). If that is the case you will either have to delete them while booted from another volume or disable SIP. OWC has a good article on SIP and how to control it.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/26/20 01:45 AM
I think it's time for you to do a FindAnyFile search to see what, if anything, is hanging around from DiskWarrior and EyeTV.

Search for DW & Alsoft and EyeTV & both Elgato & Geniatech.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/26/20 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Search for DW & Alsoft and EyeTV & both Elgato & Geniatech
For Disk Warrior, FindAnyFile found these, described as Size “0”

Alsoft (Disk Warrior).mbox
Alsoft (Disk Warrior).mbox
Alsoft-Disk Warrior
com.alsoft.DiskWarrior
com.alsoft.DiskWarrior-5-Updater
com.alsoft.DiskWarrior-Recovery-Maker
com.alsoft.diskwarrior5installer
Disk Warrior V5

….and FindAnyFile found these.

DiskWarrior.app 319K Icon was grey box with white circle and line
DiskWarrior5.zip 18.8M
DiskWarriorPreview 249K TextEdit icon
DiskWarriorPreview.kext 319K Kernel Extension icon

EDIT: Subsequent action

I did a Move to Trash for all DiskWarrior items but got a message: “The operation failed for some items. Some items are locked or require root permissions.” I did a Retry and then a new search, which came up with:

DiskWarrior.app 319K Icon is grey box with white circle and line
DiskWarriorPreview 249K TextEdit icon
DiskWarriorPreview.kext 319K Kernel Extension icon



For Alsoft, FindAnyFile found these files and Folders, all described as Size “0”

Alsoft (Disk Warrior).mbox
Alsoft (Disk Warrior).mbox

Folders:

Alsoft-Disk Warrior
com.alsoft.DiskWarrior
com.alsoft.DiskWarrior-5-Updater
com.alsoft.DiskWarrior-Recovery-Maker
com.alsoft.diskwarrior5installer
com.alsoft.drmupdater

EDIT: Subsequent actions

I did a Move to Trash for all Alsoft items and after emptying the trash, no Alsoft items are found.



For Eye TV, FindAnyFile found a pile of stuff

com.elgato.eyetv.devices.000d935dacea.plist
com.elgato.eyetv.devices.002332951ec4.plist
com.elgato.eyetv.devices.plist
com.elgato.eyetv.plist
com.elgato.eyetv.world.plist
ELGEyeTVPlayerWindow.nib
ELGEyeTVPlayerWindow.strings (There were 12 of these)
ELGEyeTVPlayerWindowFooterView.nib
ELGEyeTVPlayerWindowFooterView.strings (There were 12 of these)
ELGEyeTVPlayerWindowHeaderPopoverView.nib
ELGEyeTVPlayerWindowHeaderPopoverView.strings (There were 12 of these)
ELGEyeTVPlayerWindowHeaderView.nib
ELGEyeTVPlayerWindowHeaderView.strings (There were 12 of these)
Eye TV.mbox
EyeTV MPEG Support
EyeTV MPEG Support.component
EyeTV MPEG Support.rsrc
eyetv.icns (Which could not be copied/pasted with inserting a large image)
EyeTVBackground.png
EyeTVBackgroundAudio.png
EyeTVBackgroundLogo.png
EyeTVEditor.nib
EyeTVEditor.strings (There were 12 of these)
6 Folders all described as “EyeTVMain.nib”
EyeTVNew.png
EyeTVNopreview.png
EyeTVRadio.png
Setup-EyeTVIcon.tiff

EDIT: Subsequent actions

I did a Move to Trash for all EyeTV items and, after emptying the trash, no EyeTV items are found.



For Elgato, FindAnyFile found another pile of stuff

.com.elgato.EVC_Temp
com.elgato.eyetv.devices.000d935dacea.plist
com.elgato.eyetv.devices.002332951ec4.plist
com.elgato.eyetv.devices.plist
com.elgato.eyetv.plist
com.elgato.eyetv.world.plist
com.elgato.VideoCapture
com.elgato.VideoCapture
com.elgato.VideoCapture.plist
com.elgato.VideoCapture.png
com.elgato.videocapture.sfl
com.elgato.VideoPlayer.plist
Elgato MPEG Support
Elgato MPEG Support.component
Elgato MPEG Support.rsrc
Elgato Video Capture
Elgato Video Capture
Elgato Video Capture.app
Elgato Video Capture.pdf
Elgato.mbox
ElgatoLogo_white.pdf
ElgatoSCMCardBusDVBT
ElgatoSCMCardBusDVBT.kext
elgatovideocapture_111_6267.dmg
ElgatoVideoCapture.strings (There were 12 of these)
ElgatoVideoCaptureAssistantBackground.png (There were 2 of these)
ElgatoVideoCaptureEULABackground.png (There were 2 of these)
logo_elgato.fscaled.png (There were 2 of these)

EDIT: Subsequent action

I did a Move to Trash for all Elgato items and, after emptying the trash, no Elgato items are found.


For Geniatech, FindAnyFile didn’t find anything


EDIT: Bottom Line

I now seem to have only the following that I'm unable to purge:

DiskWarrior.app 319K Icon is grey box with white circle and line
DiskWarriorPreview 249K TextEdit icon
DiskWarriorPreview.kext 319K Kernel Extension icon

I saw that Find Any File offered a pictorial route to the items, so I followed it to the DiskWarrior.app However, I was not offered any delete option so I tried dragging it to the Trash. I got a dialogue Box that said: ""Disk Warrior" can't be modified or deleted because it's required by macOS". A right click offered Move to Trash but those attempts got “The operation failed for some items. Some items are locked or require root permissions.”
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/27/20 06:00 AM
Originally Posted by ryck
I now seem to have only the following that I'm unable to purge:

DiskWarrior.app 319K Icon is grey box with white circle and line
DiskWarriorPreview 249K TextEdit icon
DiskWarriorPreview.kext 319K Kernel Extension icon

I saw that Find Any File offered a pictorial route to the items, so I followed it to the DiskWarrior.app However, I was not offered any delete option so I tried dragging it to the Trash. I got a dialogue Box that said: ""Disk Warrior" can't be modified or deleted because it's required by macOS". A right click offered Move to Trash but those attempts got “The operation failed for some items. Some items are locked or require root permissions.”[/color]
Well, so much for CleanApp! tongue

(I just noticed that crazy is gone from the Smiley palette, but typing it still works.)

Since DW is gone, you can boot into your clone and delete those items from there.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/27/20 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Since DW is gone, you can boot into your clone and delete those items from there.
Will do....and I'll grab this opportunity to give Find Any File a big barrel of kudos. I've only spent a bit of time with it but, for the work so far, it's been quite amazing. I intend to spend a bit of time exploring as it seems to have lots of useful functionality. It's certainly well worth the price - another good reason for everyone to support ShareWare.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/27/20 03:08 PM
I'm totally neurotic about ~/Library/Prefs, and I frequently check its contents against an updated list I keep on my desktop to see if any new items have been added...particularly after I've added a new app.

I every once in a while actually find new plists that don't include any recognizable identifiers and would remain on my MBP forever after the apps that placed them have been deleted were I not aware of them at the outset. (Amazon Music and TurboTax place such plists.)

FAF can be set to search as root with a Terminal command you can find in its documentation.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/27/20 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Well, so much for CleanApp! tongue

I used CleanApp for years but deleted it when Synium Software dropped it from their lineup about a year ago. Now I use the Uninstallation Assistant in Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System 6 as an excellent first approximation followed by FAF if I have any concerns. But not even FAF helps with some apps that use UUID file names. FAF searches can also be problematic when you have two, or more, apps from the same developer and you can't differentiate which app a particular file is associated with.

NOTE: The Uninstallation Assistant in TTS 6 refuses to delete apps purchased from the App Store and suggests deleting them via LaunchPad. While theoretically that should delete all traces of a properly sandboxed application, I recently discovered an app store app that left a significant amount of detritus behind when deleted via LaunchPad. (It was reported and verified by Apple so I presume Apple is having word with the developer.)
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 09/28/20 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
...I use the Uninstallation Assistant in Marcel Bresink's TinkerTool System 6 as an excellent first approximation followed by FAF if I have any concerns. But not even FAF helps with some apps that use UUID file names. FAF searches can also be problematic when you have two, or more, apps from the same developer and you can't differentiate which app a particular file is associated with.
That's like restart v shutdown/start up, only more-so. If a restart fails, your problem persists and you know you've got to try the next step, but you're merely flying seat-of-the-pants with "if I have any concerns."

If FAF has ever, even once, found something that TTS has missed, you've got sufficient reason to run it every time you delete an app...regardless of the presence or lack of "concerns."

And if Marcel Bresink's search tool is so robust that FAF never finds anything after TTS has run, then shame on him for keeping it under the hood and confined to so small an area.

UUID file names are, as you suggest, forever hidden unless you're running an app that follows fs events in real time to record every file an app creates.

I've got two instances of two apps each from the same developer, and, not to suggest that it's a universal, every component of each app is clearly identified by the name of the app of which it's a part. (Has TTS got a different means of differentiating?)

By the way, I've run the FAF Terminal command to make it perform all searches as root.

Aside: I just noticed that posters' locations listed in FTM's sidebar are now links to maps. cool
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/01/20 06:22 PM
Not out of the woods yet, although I believe the issue may now be different. With all of the stuff done to date, I was back to normal speeds in my account. My wife’s account had remained okay throughout.

This morning I opened to an excruciatingly slow iMac….and I mean slow. Logging in took forever, application loading was like molasses in January….well, you get the picture. Since it seemed so widespread, I checked my wife’s account and it had now become just as slow.

After several frustrating failures at fixing I got OnyX out and ran these maintenance functions:

Rebuild:
Launch Services
dyld’s shared cache
XPC cache
CoreDuet database
Mail’s index
Clean:
System
• Boot cache
• Kernel and extensions cache
• Components cache
• Applications cache
Internet:
• DNS cache
• Browser cache
• Download cache
• Browser history
Log messages and reports
• Application logs
• System archived logs
•Diagnostic reports
Misc Options:
Maintenance scripts
Fonts cache
Junk items
Recent items
Trash
I also ran a File System Verification and it was okay.


The OnyX maintenance functions improved things quite a bit but not back to where they were. Then I checked my Mail Junk box and found 7 or 8 junk items. Note: I normally never get junk mail but I and my wife have been getting a lot since we went to a site that was suggested in a DuckDuckGo Privacy Mythbusting email.

The message was: “In 2013, Microsoft security research Troy Hunt built the site Have I Been Pwned? that allows you to check if your password has ever been leaked.” Note: Based on the coincidence of an influx of junk after going there, I am NOT suggesting anyone use the site.

Would I be right to assume that the junk loaded into my Mail could be a cause of the new slowdown?
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/01/20 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Then I checked my Mail Junk box and found 7 or 8 junk items. Note: I normally never get junk mail but I and my wife have been getting a lot since we went to a site that was suggested in a DuckDuckGo Privacy Mythbusting email.

The message was: “In 2013, Microsoft security research Troy Hunt built the site Have I Been Pwned? that allows you to check if your password has ever been leaked.” Note: Based on the coincidence of an influx of junk after going there, I am NOT suggesting anyone use the site.

Would I be right to assume that the junk loaded into my Mail could be a cause of the new slowdown?
I currently have 53 junk emails in my spam folder that have accumulated in the past five hours.

The Troy Hunt web site is widely known and the code base used has been released into open source so there would be little profit incentive in selling user information. In fact you could download the code, compile it, and run it entirely on your computer. So your influx of spam may be entirely coincidental.

I use 1Password 7 password manager and among other features it tracks websites I have passwords to and flags sites I use then they suffer a data breach. It also tracks sites where I have re-used a password so if any one site has a data breach, I know any and all the sites where I have used that password and need to change them. It took a lot of nagging from 1Password and a long time changing all the sites where I had used duplicate passwords, but as of now every protected site I visit has a unique password.

Unless you have opened a message containing a very sophisticated exploit targeting MacOS I would not ASSUME your junk mail to be a probable cause of your slowdown. Some things you might try to reassure yourself would be..
  • Download and run the free MalwareBytes to see if any malware is found NOTE: the paid version of MalwareBytes has the added advantage of automatic updates and scans.
  • Run the OOKLA internet speed test to see if your internet connection is running as fast as it should. If not contact your ISP as they are the likely source of the slowdown.
  • Download and run the free Etrecheck to see what, if any, problems it might identify. NOTE: Etrecheck Pro (the paid version) is more informative and IMHO helpful, but it is not free.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/02/20 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
The Troy Hunt web site is widely known and the code base used has been released into open source so there would be little profit incentive in selling user information.
I didn’t mean to suggest anything nefarious on the part of the site. My concern was more along the lines that the site may have been compromised and someone is harvesting email addresses there.
Originally Posted by joemikeb
I use 1Password 7 password manager and among other features it tracks websites I have passwords to and flags sites I use then they suffer a data breach. It also tracks sites where I have re-used a password so if any one site has a data breach…
I’m still using the old and reliable Passwords Plus although thinking I may need to change to something more current. I don’t re-use passwords and, on particularly critical sites (finance et cetera), I change them every six months or so.
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Some things you might try to reassure yourself would be..
  • Download and run the free MalwareBytes to see if any malware is found NOTE: the paid version of MalwareBytes has the added advantage of automatic updates and scans.
    Malware Bytes didn’t find anything.
  • Run the OOKLA internet speed test to see if your internet connection is running as fast as it should. If not contact your ISP as they are the likely source of the slowdown.
    Down was 333.32 Mbps and Up was 333.12 Mbps
  • Download and run the free Etrecheck to see what, if any, problems it might identify. NOTE: Etrecheck Pro (the paid version) is more informative and IMHO helpful, but it is not free.
    I have Etrechek Pro and have got a report. At first glance it doesn’t identify any major issues but there’s a lot of other stuff in the report that I don’t understand but which appears ominous. For example 10 crashes in one week of:
    Application: tccd
    Executable: /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/TCC.framework/Versions/A/Resources/tccd
    Details: *** Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSInvalidArgumentException', reason: '*** -[NSFileManager fileSystemRepresentationWithPath:]: nil or empty path argument'
    abort() called terminating with uncaught exception of type NSException
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/02/20 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Malware Bytes didn’t find anything.
So your fear of malware infection is unfounded. 👍
Originally Posted by ryck
Down was 333.32 Mbps and Up was 333.12 Mbps
You can't get any better than that so your network connection is excellent. 👍
Originally Posted by ryck
Application: tccd
Executable: /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/TCC.framework/Versions/A/Resources/tccd
Details: *** Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSInvalidArgumentException', reason: '*** -[NSFileManager fileSystemRepresentationWithPath:]: nil or empty path argument'
abort() called terminating with uncaught exception of type NSException
That is telling you that TCC (Transparency Command and Control), a security feature, was terminated because of an error in the "call" requesting the system service. Basically a coding error on the part of a developer. This type of error is not uncommon and generally not a major concern. Significant crashes will bring up a notification and the crash log will be automatically sent to Apple for analysis and eventual resolution. As far as your presenting question goes, this is more of a distraction than an indication of the problem nature.

Since you have Etrecheck Pro...
  • NOTE in Etrecheck Pro any time you see an About... button it is worth looking at to find out what Etrecheck is doing and to inform you on how to weight the results.
  • Were any Major Issues found? If so what were they?
  • Were any Minor Issues found? I would be very surprised if there weren't some minor issues Heavy RAM usage or Heavy CPU usage are informative.
  • In the Etrecheck sidebar scroll down and click on Performance (stopwatch icon) and you will see something like this. What is the performance rating? NOTE: Clicking on About will explain how the performance rating is caculated.
  • If the performance rating is anything other than Excellent, or good if you have an HD or Fusion Drive, scroll the window down a bit and under Analytics > Detailed Analytics available click on Show. This will take a few minutes to complete, but when it does you will see something like this that shows performance over three days. Mousing over the graphs will reveal the top processes at any point in time. (IMHO vastly superior to keeping Activity Monitor on the desktop and trying to watch it while you work 😉)

Hopefully this will..
  1. Reveal whether or not a problem exists.
  2. Hopefully point to the cause of an existing problem
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/03/20 08:47 AM
Major issues - None were found.

Minor Issues – Some found. Etrechek reported that they do not need immediate attention but they may indicate future problems or opportunities for improvement. The issues were:

Apps crashing - There have been numerous app crashes.
Unsigned files - There are unsigned software files installed. Apple has said that unsigned software will not run by default in a future version of the operating system.

Note: I took a quick look and there are 9 Unsigned Files (called Launched Files) with various statuses like Loaded, Not Loaded, Other, but all say “Exact match found in the legitimate list - probably OK“. There are also 212 unsigned apps, many of which are repeated. For example, three Sophos Anti-Virus, a program I once tried but thought was deleted from the drive.

System modifications - There are a large number of system modifications running in the background.
32-bit Apps - This computer has 32-bits apps will not work on current versions of the operating system.
Kernel extensions present - This computer has kernel extensions that may not work in the future.

Performance was Good. I have a fusion drive.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/03/20 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Major issues - None were found.

👏

Originally Posted by ryck
Minor Issues – Some found. Etrechek reported that they do not need immediate attention but they may indicate future problems or opportunities for improvement. The issues were:

Apps crashing - There have been numerous app crashes.
Unsigned files - There are unsigned software files installed. Apple has said that unsigned software will not run by default in a future version of the operating system.

Note: I took a quick look and there are 9 Unsigned Files (called Launched Files) with various statuses like Loaded, Not Loaded, Other, but all say “Exact match found in the legitimate list - probably OK“. There are also 212 unsigned apps, many of which are repeated. For example, three Sophos Anti-Virus, a program I once tried but thought was deleted from the drive.

System modifications - There are a large number of system modifications running in the background.
32-bit Apps - This computer has 32-bits apps will not work on current versions of the operating system.
Kernel extensions present - This computer has kernel extensions that may not work in the future.

🤷‍♂️ We all have unsigned files but that will have to be corrrected by the app developers. All we can do is lean on developers to get them signed, or replace the apps. Your 32 bit apps need to be replaced as they are dead weight. As far as the kernel extensions, the future is only a month or so away with the official release of macOS 11 (Big Sur) and yes I have some of those extensions and they do not work in Big Sur so the apps are useless until the developers release the new versions. But there is nothing in youyr minor issues that would effect performance.

Originally Posted by ryck
Performance was Good. I have a fusion drive.

If you look at the details of Etrechecks performance ratings Good is the highest rating possible with a fusion drive. Since the detailed analytics show performance over a 72 hour period or longer you might see some CPU or RAM spikes there that could explain some of your performance variations, but it doesn't appear there is any consistent performance hit. So it appears you are in good shape. 👨🏻‍💻
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/10/20 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
So it appears you are in good shape. 👨🏻‍💻
Or not. Things have since gone back to where they were, so I have booted into the Recovery Disk and am currently reinstalling the OS.

Update: New system installation complete and apps are opening in short order. However, the Safari opening page is back to the dozen Top Siites, not the elaborate mini Top Site layouts that appeared after the last update. Currently "About this Mac" says Safari 12.1.2 and OS Mojave 10:14.6. I did a quick search for the latest Safari and found this interesting bit of information.

So, I'm going to leave well enough alone and go back to bed. We'll see what I awaken to.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/10/20 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
So, I'm going to leave well enough alone and go back to bed. We'll see what I awaken to.

Everything continues to work as it should, so I going to assume that I was done in by the Safari update(s)....a good reminder to wait until updates have been around for a while, and proven to be okay, before installing. One bit of sidebar information for those who might have followed this link:

Originally Posted by ryck

The site (MacRumors) put a cookie on my drive that my "Cookie" software didn't purge, even after a few tries. I had to go to Safari>Preferences>Manage Website Data to get rid of it.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/10/20 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
The site (MacRumors) put a cookie on my drive that my "Cookie" software didn't purge, even after a few tries. I had to go to Safari>Preferences>Manage Website Data to get rid of it.
If you pay close attention to that "Manage..." pane you'll see that there are MANY cookies that Cookie doesn't clear; they're called "session cookies" and can only be cleared as you did or by quitting Safari.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/10/20 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
If you pay close attention to that "Manage..." pane you'll see that there are MANY cookies that Cookie doesn't clear; they're called "session cookies" and can only be cleared as you did or by quitting Safari.
But quitting Safari did not clear the cookie even after several consecutive tries. i.e. quit Safari, load Safari, quit Safari, load Safari, quit Safari, load Safari....
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/10/20 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Everything continues to work as it should, so I going to assume that I was done in by the Safari update(s)....
One question remains, although it's not critical if no one has the answer. Why was the slowness limited to one account (mine - the Administrator) without affecting other Users?
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/10/20 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
If you pay close attention to that "Manage..." pane you'll see that there are MANY cookies that Cookie doesn't clear; they're called "session cookies" and can only be cleared as you did or by quitting Safari.
But quitting Safari did not clear the cookie even after several consecutive tries. i.e. quit Safari, load Safari, quit Safari, load Safari, quit Safari, load Safari....
Yeah, I've run across occasional cookies like that...caches too.

They're getting more and more insidious! mad

And lately, I've found a new class of items in the "Manage..." pane that Cookie doesn't clear that are totally unidentified...apparently neither cookies nor cache nor local storage. (Cookie's developer doesn't even know what they are.)

In truth, Cookie is becoming less and less functional, and at this point, its main purpose in my life is to perpetuate my favorites. (You may be interested in my review of Cookie here.)
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/11/20 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
In truth, Cookie is becoming less and less functional, and at this point, its main purpose in my life is to perpetuate my favorites. (You may be interested in my review of Cookie here.)
Recalling the MacRumors cookie that Cookie could not remove, your link has me confused and I wonder if the link is now dated. In it, you take fault with the fact that Cookie was removing HSTS cookies, which are a security feature. However, I distinctly recall that the MacRumors cookie which couldn't be removed by Cookie, was an HSTS cookie. Has the Cookie Developer fixed the issue you identified?
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/11/20 06:40 PM
My comments:
  1. I have used Cookie so long, I had almost forgotten I had it until I installed Big Sur...
  2. Cookie is currently unusable in Big Sur.
  3. This Sophos article details how Safari retains the security features of HSTS cookies but prevents their abuse as tracking cookies.
  4. I wish there were a better program for managing cookies if for no other reason than there are so 🤬 many of them and they accumulate so quickly.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/13/20 06:30 AM
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
In truth, Cookie is becoming less and less functional, and at this point, its main purpose in my life is to perpetuate my favorites. (You may be interested in my review of Cookie here.)
Recalling the MacRumors cookie that Cookie could not remove, your link has me confused and I wonder if the link is now dated. In it, you take fault with the fact that Cookie was removing HSTS cookies, which are a security feature. However, I distinctly recall that the MacRumors cookie which couldn't be removed by Cookie, was an HSTS cookie. Has the Cookie Developer fixed the issue you identified?
Let's see if I can make this concise.

First, HSTS prevents "man in the middle" attacks by ensuring that access to subscribing websites is via a secure, i.e. https, connection.

Second, your MacRumors item wasn't identified as a cookie; it was identified as "HSTS Policy."

I've got no idea when HSTS was first implemented, but in January or so, Safari > Prefs > Privacy > Manage... began displaying "HSTS Policy" items, and I and others asked Russell (Cookie's developer) if something could be done about them, because they were persistent, being cleared by neither Cookie nor quitting Safari, and really cluttered up "Manage..." with useless information.

My thinking, and, I"ll guess, that of others was that the items could be cleared on a site by site basis.

That turned out to be wishful thinking, though, because the items are sourced from ~/Library/Cookies/HSTS.plist, which can be cleared only in its entirety, and that's what Russell fixed Cookie to do...whenever it clears cache.

The plist (around 900 listed websites when I became aware of it, and now close to 5,000) is recreated the first time you visit a site that's opted in to HSTS, but that initial connection is unprotected, and the fact that users are neither advised that a security feature has been compromised nor offered a means to fix it is worthy of concern.

At some point, Apple fixed Safari so HSTS Policy items are no longer displayed, and thereby made Russell's "fix" pointless, but he either doesn't pay enough attention to Safari to know or doesn't care to "waste [his] time" (because no-one other than me has requested it) undoing it.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/13/20 06:58 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
My comments:
  1. I have used Cookie so long, I had almost forgotten I had it until I installed Big Sur...
  2. Cookie is currently unusable in Big Sur.
  3. This Sophos article details how Safari retains the security features of HSTS cookies but prevents their abuse as tracking cookies.
  4. I wish there were a better program for managing cookies if for no other reason than there are so 🤬 many of them and they accumulate so quickly.
As far as I know, Cookie is the only cookie manager available since Cookie Stumbler went "unsupported" in 2016, and in my opinion, its uniqueness, not its functionality, is what supports, but doesn't justify, its $20 price.

Have you ever looked in your "Manage..." pane after an extended browsing session during which you had Cookie set to remove non-favorites and trackers, and to clear cache?

In theory, and maybe even indeed, that pane would have been devoid of all entries but your favorite cookies and their appurtenances when Cookie was first debuted, but at today's date, it's littered with non-favorites, local storage items, and caches, with Russel's explanation being that because they're "session items" or for some other reason, Cookie is unable to touch them.

I can't fault Cookie for not doing what it can't do, but what it can't do is making it less and less effective at its job, because the number of items it can't touch is growing, not shrinking.

I've got no reason to doubt that Cookie is doing the best job possible, and that unfortunately leaves us with no hope for a better program. frown

At this point, the only part of Cookie's functionality that I would mind losing is its ability to save my favorites when I quit Safari.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/13/20 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by artie505
Let's see if I can make this concise......et cetera.
Thanks for the clarity. The concise version was just fine.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/13/20 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
As far as I know, Cookie is the only cookie manager available since Cookie Stumbler went "unsupported" in 2016, and in my opinion, its uniqueness, not its functionality, is what supports, but doesn't justify, its $20 price.

I can't fault Cookie for not doing what it can't do, but what it can't do is making it less and less effective at its job, because the number of items it can't touch is growing, not shrinking.

I've got no reason to doubt that Cookie is doing the best job possible, and that unfortunately leaves us with no hope for a better program. frown
Let's face it, there is BIG $ € ¥ £ to be made in tracking internet usage, and when we shut down tracking cookies, the marketers are simply going to find another way to do the job. The existing systems were not designed for securing but sharing information so security and privacy are always an afterthought. To be really secure would require a total redesign of the internet from the bottom up which would be close to impossible given the size and inertia of the existing system and since that would wipe out the financial support of much of the internet content, who would pay for it?

Sadly I have let Cookie go and I am depending on Little Snitch's Big Sur beta to block unwanted outgoing traffic, but In my head I know that much of the tracking etc. is still being carried on legitimate approved data packets that I am sending voluntarily. 😢 I find I am using VPN more, and while I have TOR I don't use it because too many sites will not even work if all of its security features are enabled. This is a battle to be fought but never won or lost.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/14/20 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Sadly I have let Cookie go and I am depending on Little Snitch's Big Sur beta to block unwanted outgoing traffic, but In my head I know that much of the tracking etc. is still being carried on legitimate approved data packets that I am sending voluntarily. 😢 I find I am using VPN more, and while I have TOR I don't use it because too many sites will not even work if all of its security features are enabled. This is a battle to be fought but never won or lost.
I'm not at all certain that we're not losing the battle. frown mad

I tried Little Snitch 4 in demo mode, but I never upgraded, because I found it almost impossible to use, and because I felt that rather than the upgrade price being justified by upgraded functionality, it was merely based on unnecessary eye candy and bells & whistles.

I'll ride Cookie for as long as it's got wheels if for no reason other than that it perpetuates my favorites. I wouldn't spring for $20 were I a new user. I've got no idea why it's not Big Sur compatible, and I hope Russell is able to overcome whatever issues are preventing it.

Worst case scenario, I"ll do Cookie's job by hand. It's not that big a deal. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/15/20 12:03 PM
And speaking of the devil, I just looked at my Manage... pane and found this!

The blue items were identified as caches as recently as yesterday, I believe, and today, some are NOT cleared by ⌘-⌥-E.

It takes quitting Safari to clear them.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/15/20 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
And speaking of the devil, I just looked at my Manage... pane and found this!
On my mac, Imgur is just showing a blank black page. This also happened with a link that Ira provided in another thread.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/15/20 02:46 PM
Try this one.

If it doesn't work, you may have to open an accont and log in? Imgur has been weird lately.
Posted By: Ira L Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/15/20 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
Originally Posted by artie505
And speaking of the devil, I just looked at my Manage... pane and found this!
On my mac, Imgur is just showing a blank black page. This also happened with a link that Ira provided in another thread.

The original and subsequent link worked for me. But I have an Imgur account.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/15/20 08:58 PM
Like Ira, both links worked for me but I too have an Imgur account.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/16/20 12:47 AM
I haven't been able to view any of these imgur links in Safari (13.0.4, High Sierra 10.13.6) for at least a couple of months now. I get the black screen, too. Occasionally, mousing over some random spot will produce a brief flash of content which immediately disappears again. I've messed around with various settings to no avail.

I don't think it's related to having an account or not, because the images display as expected in Firefox.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/16/20 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by dkmarsh
Occasionally, mousing over some random spot will produce a brief flash of content which immediately disappears again.
I get that flash of content immediately on page loading. It's a brief flash of colour across the top of the screen which is gone as quickly as it came.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/16/20 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
And if Marcel Bresink's search tool is so robust that FAF never finds anything after TTS has run, then shame on him for keeping it under the hood and confined to so small an area.
In the more recent versions of Tinkertool System the Unistallation Assistant individually searches every user account, including Root, for traces of the app. So far FAF has never found any identifiable detritus, but Big Sur does hide some system level stuff from any app running on the boot drive, and possibly on other Big Sur system volumes, but so far I cannot verify that one way or the other.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/16/20 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Sadly I have let Cookie go and I am depending on Little Snitch's Big Sur beta to block unwanted outgoing traffic, but In my head I know that much of the tracking etc. is still being carried on legitimate approved data packets that I am sending voluntarily. 😢 I find I am using VPN more, and while I have TOR I don't use it because too many sites will not even work if all of its security features are enabled. This is a battle to be fought but never won or lost.
So much for Little Snitch. I just got a notice that the beta version of Little Snitch I had licensed has expired with the release of the new version and it will cost another $45 (regularly $89) to license and use it. Another opportunity to test Tinkertool System's Uninstallation assistant's efficacy.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/16/20 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
So much for Little Snitch. I just got a notice that the beta version of Little Snitch I had licensed has expired with the release of the new version and it will cost another $45 (regularly $89) to license and use it. Another opportunity to test Tinkertool System's Uninstallation assistant's efficacy.

SO MUCH FOR THAT THOUGHT

When I attempted to delete Little Snitch both Tinkertool System and Find Any File encountered files they could not delete. 🤨 Before you ask, I tried the superuser option in FAF. Finally, in desperation, I activated the Root user and logged on. I don't know how, or when, those Little Snitch files were installed but the Root user does NOT have privileges to do anything but see them 🤯. They cannot be directly deleted or moved to the Trash, even when logged in as Root! 🤬

Artie, you will be glad to know this, your "work-around" of booting from another drive and then deleting files does work! 🥳
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/17/20 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by joemikeb
So much for Little Snitch. I just got a notice that the beta version of Little Snitch I had licensed has expired with the release of the new version and it will cost another $45 (regularly $89) to license and use it. Another opportunity to test Tinkertool System's Uninstallation assistant's efficacy.

SO MUCH FOR THAT THOUGHT

When I attempted to delete Little Snitch both Tinkertool System and Find Any File encountered files they could not delete. 🤨 Before you ask, I tried the superuser option in FAF. Finally, in desperation, I activated the Root user and logged on. I don't know how, or when, those Little Snitch files were installed but the Root user does NOT have privileges to do anything but see them 🤯. They cannot be directly deleted or moved to the Trash, even when logged in as Root! 🤬

Artie, you will be glad to know this, your "work-around" of booting from another drive and then deleting files does work! 🥳
I haven't tried lately, but Root's ability to delete stuff has been hobbled, if not shackled, since macOS locked the system volume. The only reason I even tried booting into another volume in the first place was my inability to delete Apple apps from /Apps in my boot volume, even when logged in as Root.

I'm assuming (and, if so, happy to hear) that your system remained bootable after you deleted those files. I'd have guessed that you may have messed with the snapshot and made it unbootable. Or did you mess with the snapshot's underlying data which in turn updated the snapshot and maintained its integrity?

Or did this
Originally Posted by Mike Bombich
FWIW, I'd wait on this one. There is no impetus to upgrade to Big Sur, and there are some lower-level things that are still not working correctly. The biggest problem right now is that the "Signed System Volume" is supposed to be cryptographically "sealed", but that seal is constantly broken. A volume with a broken seal isn't supposed to be bootable, but Apple has relaxed that requirement because the functionality doesn't work. You're in no worse shape than in Catalina where the volume lacks the seal altogether, but then there's also no advantage (security-wise) to upgrading just yet.
perhaps come into play?

(I think Little Snitch is REALLY pushing its luck. As macOS gets tighter and tighter, its BASIC functionality, the reason we all bought in the first place, is becoming less and less relevant.)
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/17/20 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
I'm assuming (and, if so, happy to hear) that your system remained bootable after you deleted those files. I'd have guessed that you may have messed with the snapshot and made it unbootable. Or did you mess with the snapshot's underlying data which in turn updated the snapshot and maintained its integrity?
The "trick" is when you are booted from a drive certain files on the data volume such as third party kernel extensions are firmlinked to the system and become part of the booted snapshot with all of the protections of the system volume and therefore cannot be deleted. When you access a drive from another boot volume using Finder you cannot see or access the bootable snapshot, but you can see and access files on the data or system volume without effecting the snapshot or its cryptoligic seal. In fact the update installer takes advantage of this and boots from a virtual drive to make changes in the system volume. I don't know exactly what is contained in the bootable snapshot, but obviously there is a dynamic element or else this would not work.

Originally Posted by artie505
Or did this
Originally Posted by Mike Bombich
FWIW, I'd wait on this one. There is no impetus to upgrade to Big Sur, and there are some lower-level things that are still not working correctly. The biggest problem right now is that the "Signed System Volume" is supposed to be cryptographically "sealed", but that seal is constantly broken. A volume with a broken seal isn't supposed to be bootable, but Apple has relaxed that requirement because the functionality doesn't work. You're in no worse shape than in Catalina where the volume lacks the seal altogether, but then there's also no advantage (security-wise) to upgrading just yet.
perhaps come into play?
🤷‍♂️ but so far I am very happy with macOS 11, iOS 14.2, iPadOS14.2, Watch 7.1, and TVOS whatever the beta is.

Originally Posted by artie505
(I think Little Snitch is REALLY pushing its luck. As macOS gets tighter and tighter, its BASIC functionality, the reason we all bought in the first place, is becoming less and less relevant.)
Agreed and with security changes in Safari the same can be said of Cookie. I have depended on Cookie to shortstop tracking cookies but in the last 7 days Safari 14.0.1 has prevented 42 tracking cookies from "phoning home". No help from Cookies or Little Snitch was involved. That doesn't mean I am not being tracked however.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/25/20 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
I'm assuming (and, if so, happy to hear) that your system remained bootable after you deleted those files. I'd have guessed that you may have messed with the snapshot and made it unbootable. Or did you mess with the snapshot's underlying data which in turn updated the snapshot and maintained its integrity?
The "trick" is when you are booted from a drive certain files on the data volume such as third party kernel extensions are firmlinked to the system and become part of the booted snapshot with all of the protections of the system volume and therefore cannot be deleted. When you access a drive from another boot volume using Finder you cannot see or access the bootable snapshot, but you can see and access files on the data or system volume without effecting the snapshot or its cryptoligic seal. In fact the update installer takes advantage of this and boots from a virtual drive to make changes in the system volume. I don't know exactly what is contained in the bootable snapshot, but obviously there is a dynamic element or else this would not work.
Thinking back, I think you said in another thread that the snapshot is created when you boot, and if that's the case, deletions accomplished from another volume would, of course, have no effect on it, and my question was answered before I even posed it.

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
(I think Little Snitch is REALLY pushing its luck. As macOS gets tighter and tighter, its BASIC functionality, the reason we all bought in the first place, is becoming less and less relevant.)
Agreed and with security changes in Safari the same can be said of Cookie. I have depended on Cookie to shortstop tracking cookies but in the last 7 days Safari 14.0.1 has prevented 42 tracking cookies from "phoning home". No help from Cookies or Little Snitch was involved. That doesn't mean I am not being tracked however.
Beyond the items it does block, I've always got a laundry list of "session" cookies and local storage items that Cookie is unable to block, so in my eyes, it's primary usefulness (which, to my knowledge, is unique to it) at this juncture is its ability to perpetuate my favorites from Safari session to session.

Getting back to "pushing its luck, though, "Cookie looks good to uninitiated eyes, but to those who've investigated its "true" functionality, it falls short of delivering on its $20 price tag.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/25/20 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by artie505
Thinking back, I think you said in another thread that the snapshot is created when you boot, and if that's the case, deletions accomplished from another volume would, of course, have no effect on it, and my question was answered before I even posed it.
If I said that, my current understanding is the bootable snapshot is created by the installer at install time. Therefore there would have to be a dynamic element to it, which I suspect is the result of firmlinks to specific folders rather than files.

Originally Posted by artie505
Getting back to "pushing its luck, though, "Cookie looks good to uninitiated eyes, but to those who've investigated its "true" functionality, it falls short of delivering on its $20 price tag.
Agreed! Not to divert this thread to another topic, but your comment brings up a grumble of mine:
Originally Posted by grumble
At least the $20 is not an annual subscription, which is more and more becoming the rule rather than the exception. 😡 (Although, when I look at the annual or even biennial upgrade price for some packages, the subscription option is becoming more attractive. 😠 And it beats the h3!! out of the advertising and "pay to play" gimmicks used in far too many iOS and iPadOS games. (why isn't there a Yosemite Sam emoji when I need it?)
Posted By: artie505 Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/25/20 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Thinking back, I think you said in another thread that the snapshot is created when you boot, and if that's the case, deletions accomplished from another volume would, of course, have no effect on it, and my question was answered before I even posed it.
If I said that, my current understanding is the bootable snapshot is created by the installer at install time. Therefore there would have to be a dynamic element to it, which I suspect is the result of firmlinks to specific folders rather than files.
That makes sense.

I'm almost antsy for Big Sur, if for no other reason than to see how it can be messed with "seat of the pants."

Originally Posted by joemikeb
Originally Posted by artie505
Getting back to "pushing its luck," though, Cookie looks good to uninitiated eyes, but to those who've investigated its "true" functionality, it falls short of delivering on its $20 price tag.
Agreed! Not to divert this thread to another topic, but your comment brings up a grumble of mine:
Originally Posted by grumble
At least the $20 is not an annual subscription, which is more and more becoming the rule rather than the exception. 😡 (Although, when I look at the annual or even biennial upgrade price for some packages, the subscription option is becoming more attractive. 😠 And it beats the h3!! out of the advertising and "pay to play" gimmicks used in far too many iOS and iPadOS games. (why isn't there a Yosemite Sam emoji when I need it?)
The only "subscription" app I'm running is Excel, and although I didn't love it when I tried it, I'll switch to Numbers when the cost of Excel exceeds its appeal. My other apps are re-evaluated for relative usefulness any time their economics change for any reason. I periodically think about a VPN, but I can't convince myself that I need one, even more-so with HSTS.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/26/20 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by joemikeb
Not to divert this thread to another topic, but...
Speaking of which....the originally posted issue (extreme slowness) was resolved when I restored my OS to the version before Supplemental Update that included Safari 14.0 (I'm currently 12.1.2). Apple has since issued:

Security Update 2020-005 10.14.6
Release date September 24, 2020

macOS Supplemental Update 10.14.6 - Includes installation of Safari 14.0
Release date October 1, 2020

I have been sitting on these as I am not interested in the slowness horror show that accompanied the first installation. I would be interested to know if anyone has installed these updates without subsequent problems.
Posted By: Ira L Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/27/20 05:00 PM
This article may offer you an explanation or some comfort.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 10/28/20 04:13 PM
Thanks for that. Yesterday I installed both of the updates (above) and....so far, so good.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 11/05/20 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ira L
This article may offer you an explanation or some comfort.
Originally Posted by ryck
....I installed both of the updates (above) and....so far, so good.
I'm changing that to so far, so bad. Yesterday, after only a week, the problems returned and I have now re-installed Mojave without the two updates. I have no way of knowing if the security update is the problem or if it's the OS supplemental update, which introduces the newer version of Safari, so I'll eschew both.
Posted By: ryck Re: Curious slowness-limited to one account - 11/13/20 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by ryck
....the problems returned and I have now re-installed Mojave without the two updates. I have no way of knowing if the security update is the problem or if it's the OS supplemental update, which introduces the newer version of Safari...
The Software panel now has:

Security Update 2020-005 10.14.6
Release date September 10.14.6
Safari 14.0.1

The macOS Supplemental Update 10.14.6 included installation of Safari 14.0. I wonder if this addresses my quandary "is the problem the Security update or Safari update?" Maybe Safari was the problem and Safari 14.0.1 is the fix.
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