Guys: I read all your input and still cannot make up my mind.

I have Sierra on my extended hard drive now. Can I erase it off the Mac and create more space on my SSD?

Otherwise, I am still confused as to whether it's safe to download both Mojave and Catalina. I have partitioned my hard drive and named the partitions Mojave and Catalina. Mojave has 30 gig and Catalina has 44 gigs. I have not downloaded anything because I am waiting to see what I want to do. I talked to AppleCare and he said the divisions I made are okay. He just wanted to get off the phone, so I came here again.

If I screw things up, can I erase what I've done or is it permanent? I need to do the safest, easiest thing possible if that's the case.

As you probably know, some of what you all said was too technical. Artie was right. Besides, you can see I overthink everything.

Anyway, JoeMike said, "DO NOT let the installer reformat the internal drive to APFS." I don't know what APFS is nor how to not let the installer reformat the internal drive. This is becoming so complicated.

First I would boot from the external drive to be certain that it is bootable before erasing the SSD on your Mac. But if you are confident your clone is working then you can safely erase your SSD, but that may not be necessary. Disk Utility in Sierra can non-destructively partition a drive in the free space on that drive. (but I would never attempt that without a known good bootable clone in case Murphy's Law kicks in.)

If you are going to install Catalina anywhere: Power down your computer and wait 10 seconds then start your computer while holding down Option+Command+R (⌥⌘R) until you see the Apple logo appear on your screen. This will boot your computer from an internet Recovery Drive and from there you can install Catalina on your SSD or any drive partition/volume that can be formatted APFS. If you are installing it on your SSD the installer will non-destructively reformat your SSD to APFS.

APFS is Apple's new file system that replaces HFS+ (MacOS extended) which has some really wonderful and amazing features such as multiple volumes on the same drive or partition and each volume can expand to occupy the entire physical capacity of the partition or drive. In many ways it is a mind bender. But the fact is Mojave can run on APFS or HFS+ while Catalina will only run on APFS but it can access files on an HFS+ volume. NOTE: APFS is highly optimized for use on an SSD but it will also work on an HD.

Volume is probably a new and confusing term for you but technically every drive or partition on a drive has/is a volume and the files are contained in that volume. With APFS a drive or partition can have one or more volumes and a volume may contain sub volumes. Confusing? You bet! it took me a while to wrap my brain around all of this but it offers amazing flexibility and features. It helped me to think of a volume as a .dmg on steroids which turns out to be a workable analogy.

Color me stupid, but I plugged in my external drive. I went into Sierra which seems to work fine. I then went into Mavericks and it was up to date with all the same bookmarks, etc. Is that normal? I haven't been into Mavericks on my external drive for years. It was as if I was in Sierra all along.

Also, how do I get out of the external drive? Delete each orange drive icon and then unplug the drive or what? It's been awhile since I've used the external drive and I've forgotten the rules.

Thanks.

I am coloring you smart. Since you didn't know you were smart to ask. When you say "went into Sierra" does that mean you...

1. Booted hour computer while Pressing the Option Key until you saw the Apple logo then selected the Sierra that is on your external drive from the options listed or...
2. while booted from your SSD went to System Preferences > Startup disk and selected your external drive from the options listed there.

If it was A then all you have to do is reboot your computer and it will automatically revert to the version on your SSD. If B then you have to reverse the procedure go into System Preferences > Startup Disk and select the SSD as your boot drive then reboot.


The rule is never unplug or disconnect a mounted drive without dismounting it UNLESS you are shutting down or rebooting your computer. Part of the what happens in the shutdown process is disconnecting all connected drives and the first thing that happens during a reboot is shutting down the computer.

I dunno, Rita. joemike may have been alluding to this, but are you 100% CERTAIN that you were actually in Mavericks?

What you described doesn't sound possible. (Unless, that is, you've got Mavericks pointed to your Sierra home folder.)

Maybe I was too subtle but that is EXACTLY what I was alluding to. I concur with your analysis that what Rita reports does not seem possible.

This whole thing and all of the complexities would be totally avoided if Rita would give up Sierra.

Never before has a legacy OS been so far removed from and so at odds with its younger siblings.

Hi: All I know is that I connected my extended hard drive to my Mac and clicked onto the orange hard drive icon labeled Mavericks. The weird thing is Mavericks has bookmarks from before that were not on Sierra, but Mavericks also has my current bookmarks. As far as it pointing to Sierra, I don't even know what that means. If it points to Sierra, I must have accidentally done that.

Hi Joe: I wouldn't mind giving up Sierra if I knew for a fact that it is the culprit of my bad experience on Amazon. I checked my husband's iMac and he has High Sierra 10.13.6. If someone has access to that and can duplicate the problems I am having with Amazon reviews, I will know for sure that I need to upgrade. His is the newest OS in the house! LOL! I would also like to know of Mojave is acting up in regards to Amazon. Anyone have screen sharing abilities?

************

This whole thing and all of the complexities would be totally avoided if Rita would give up Sierra. [/quote]

I think you ought to forget about troubleshooting the issue and find an exorcist.

I've got backup 10.13.6 and 10.14.6 volumes. If you tell me what your issue with Amazon is I'll take a look.

It could be the problem is not with Sierra, but the version of Safari in Sierra. You might try downloading, installing, and running either Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox and see if they fix the problem.

Even if that fixes your problem, my strong recommendation to upgrade to Catalina still stands. Catalina is many times more secure from outside manipulation than Sierra and given the sophisticated exploits out on the internet, we all need all the protection we can get. Besides that you might discover a lot of cool new features and there are a lot of new apps are not compatible with Sierra. And in general Catalina has been a problem free version of MacOS from day one.

Hi Artie:

Thanks for your help. I tried it on the latest Firefox too and it does even weirder things there. In Safari, I look up a general product like dish cloths. I see one I am interested in and when I hover over the review stars, it shows up as a little white square. It's never done this before. So, then I click on the actual product and then click on one of the review options, lets say 5 star. When I click on it, instead of bringing up the 5 star reviews like normal, something goes right to the download window. When I click on the download window, I get this message that Safari can't open the file because no available application can open it. (I took a screen shot but can't remember how to upload it.)

But if none of that happens to you, there is something else going on, but still, it's all three computers,, my old mac which runs on Sierra, this Mac that runs on Sierra and my husband's iMac that runs on High Sierra.

When I try it on the very latest Firefox, and I hover over the stars of a product I like, I again get the little white box. So, I click on the product and get the product page for that dish cloth. I click on the review stars I want and I get a text box saying: You have chosen to open.....It's too long to quote but you get the idea. If I click "ok" a picture of the outline of a dog comes up!!! In Firefox I find it's easier to get to reviews and read them than in Safari, though.

Whew! Hope that helps. And I hope it happens to you. Then I know for sure that it's Sierra. If that happens to you in Mojave, too, I will jump right to Catalina.

LOLOLOL!


I think you ought to forget about troubleshooting the issue and find an exorcist. [/quote]

Hi Joe:

It does it with the latest Firefox, too!! Artie is checking this out for me on Sierra. I am anxious to hear the results. If it doesn't happen to him, I don't know what to think. I don't want to download Chrome.

I may actually install Catalina, but I dread the learning curve. It always takes me about a week to finally feel comfortable with a new OS that is drastically different than the old one. The experience is not fun for me.

I'm wondering just what the "etc." means here. If you are using (i.e. signed into) iCloud on both partitions, then by default your bookmarks would have been updated on the Mavericks partition as soon as you launched Safari.

As an experiment, you could see if the Mavericks bookmarks that weren't previously on your Sierra partition now show up there.

I don't use iCloud, so if it's there it's not by choice. I have heard people say that stuff goes into iCloud without their consent. I'm not sure if that's true or not because I'm not going to check. When I get a chance, I may check my Sierra partition as you mentioned. That's a good idea. Thanks.

Hi, Rita,

I wasn't able to check in Sierra, because I've got only High Sierra and Mojave backup volumes. (I've got a Sierra installer, though, and if push comes to shove I'll run it.)

But since you said your issue happens in your husband's HS as well as your Sierra I booted into HS to see what would happen, and I had no problems on Amazon. (This was in Safari 12.0 to begin with and 13.0 after I finished updating.)

BUT, I noticed something in HS (Catalina too, so it's not version specific) that never caught my eye before, namely, that when I hover over the review stars on a product list page a little empty white box flashes on my screen for a fraction of a second before the stars box comes up.

That, combined with your review issue on specific product pages, smells VERY MUCH to me like a content blocker issue, so I'll suggest that you try turning yours off and back on one at a time to see if you can nail a culprit. I hope you're running content blockers anyhow, because if you aren't, I'm out of ideas. (I'll note that I've run into review/content blocker conflicts, but not on Amazon.)

PS: To post a screenshot or other type of image...

1. Go to https://imgur.com/upload.
2. Either drag your image into the window or browse for it.
3. Click on "Copy" in the next window to copy your image's URL to your clipboard.
4. Create a link using FTM's "Create a link..." tags...2nd icon from the left.

Hi Artie:

Thank you for going through all that trouble. As you can see I was able to put in the screen shots using your instructions. I wonder what that little white box is all about? Before you suggested it, I did disable my content blockers, but it made no difference, and my husband doesn't have any on his I'm pretty sure, unless I put them on and don't remember. He wouldn't know how to do it anyway. I am guessing it isn't browser specific since I used Safari and Firefox and still had problems.

So, if it's not the content blockers, and it doesn't happen on your Mac, maybe it's something else causing this. If so, I will call Apple again and ask to speak to a level 2 Tech (if they are working at this time). Awaiting your reply.... Rita

Screen Shot TextEditWindow Dog Picture

Hi:

I went into my external HD and checked Mavericks. I couldn't bring up Safari because I got this message: "You can't use this version of the app safari.app with this version of Mac OS. You have safari.app 9.1.1." So, it looks like I can't even use Mavericks from my external H.D. May as well delete it.

Anyway, I also looked at Sierra on the Ex. HD and yes, it has the same bookmarks as Mavericks, though my internal HD Sierra does not.


***********

Artie: I just noticed that when I'm in Firefox, when I try to renew the page, it goes to that text edit window and then to the "dog."! That doesn't happen on Safari. It's got to be something wacky in my computer. I had all the content blockers off, too. Waaaah!!

Artie: Did you see my screen shots?

Rita

I'm with you Rita, but I literally just got out of bed...slept the entire day. (Haven't eaten a thing yet either.)

If sleeping is a symptom, I"m terminal.

I'll get back to you by your AM.

More: Well, I'll try, anyhow. Good thing you're west coast.

I've got absolutely no idea what's up, Rita.

I found What is a .dms file and how do I open it? which identifies 3 possibilities for your .dms file and means to open each:

1. #1 - Disk Masher Image: I've had The Unarchiver on my MBP for ages, and it's safe...but Amiga?
2. #2 - Dream Maker Script: I know nothing about either Dream Maker or the app mentioned.
3. #3 - Renamed Downloaded File: That would involve simply changing the extension on your file from .dms to either .txt, .rtf, or .rtfd depending upon its contents. (I guess you'd have to experiment?)

Unfortunately, though, I can't begin to guess what you'll find inside that file if you do open it. I, myself, would create a sterile environment and take a look-see, but I think you'll be best off ignoring it.

Your dog looks like a 404 Error (Page Not Found), but it doesn't say so, and under any circumstances, it's too primitive to be an Amazon offering.

And you say that your husband experiences the same things you do, but on a different machine running a different version of macOS?

It doesn't seem likely that it's an ISP issue, but maybe something that came from your ISP inadvertently? Have you got a friend who uses the same ISP with whom you can check?

Unless someone else can come up with a better idea, I"d be inclined to experiment with a newly created, pristine installation, your choice of OS, and check to see if Amazon works before doing anything more. If Amazon does work, you can then run Migration Assistant, BUT that may import your problem to your new volume...altogether, one hell of a Catch-22.

Anybody?

Hi, again, Rita,

I think it's time to start thinking bigger than an exorcist...a reality show, maybe?

I assume you could get into Safari in Mavericks at some point - How else could you have found out that the Sierra bookmarks are there? - but I'm at a loss as to why you no longer can.

Perhaps you've got auto-update turned on and you got an incomplete update? Under any circumstances, though, if you want to retain Mavericks, software update should offer you a Safari update that will get you back into it.

dkmarsh's iCloud guess for the bookmarks sounds like a good one, but I wasn't a cloud guy until Catalina, so I can't tell you where to look.

Sorry I can't do any better with either of your issues.

Sorry about that (asking questions when you were sleeping). I looked online on FTM to see when you'd made your last post and it looked like you might still be awake. Anyway, I don't need Mavericks. I kept it just in case, but I can delete it. I do know someone who has my ISP. I will ask them to check for me. That was a great idea. I'll also find out what version OS they are using. I did update Safari yesterday and some security stuff, but it's still doing the same thing. I'll check with my friend before I download Mojave or Catalina. Because if it does the same thing after that, I would want to pull my hair out! Oh, and I don't have auto-update turned on because, as you know, I don't like to update unless I absolutely have to.

Thanks again for all your checking and time. I'm guessing that people from AppleCare are working from home now and that's why they can't screen share with me to get the full picture.

Rita

When I over the ratings on Amazon I get a momentary flash of a small white square which is immediately replaced with this. I have content blockers turned OFF for Amazon pages.

SIDEBAR: I find I am having to turn content blockers off on more and more sites in order to get them to load correctly or in some cases to load at all. The battle between advertisers and privacy advocates is escalating to yet a new level.
😡🤬🤯🔥

Yes, I get the white square also, but I'm not sure what I'm looking at in Imgur. Because when I get the stars box like you show, I then click on one of them and it goes into my download folder. Did that happen to you? If so, it's not my computer it's something wacky at Amazon. I also get crazy stuff on Firefox, so I should have realized that updating Safari and Security stuff would make no difference. Even though we turn off our content blockers, I wonder if the security settings from Apple is causing a problem like a blocker does.

I also am finding out that I can't use my content blockers on several sites like you said. They are bound and determined that we have to see it all even though it causes bad feelings from their customers. It makes no sense to me.

And, I'm assuming, you have the latest of everything. So getting Catalina won't help me, right?

It depends on where I click in the stars box. If I click on the line with the five stars I get all the five star ratings, If I click on the four star Line I get the four star ratings, etc..

I recall recently reading a post describing an problem where the pointer on the screen was not where the action would occur when the user clicked, but even using DEVONAgent Pro I can't find the reference. If I recall correctly the solution in the case was an upgrade to the browser. 😧


Advertisers pay serious money to put their products in front of the buying public and the number of places where that can happen are whittling down rather dramatically. There are far fewer newspapers and magazines and the remaining ones have even fewer readers. More and more television content is moving to streaming services and thanks to video recorders viewers are able to bypass the advertising. Billboards are strictly limited. So the only remaining media available to advertisers is online. So advertisers are not unreasonable in wanting to put their products in front of you and frankly they don't care if it is annoying as long as a small, even very small, percentage click through and buy. They only need a minute percentage of purchasers because there are so many viewers and if they irritate you they really don't care.

Amazon works for me in Catalina so there is every reason to believe it would work for you also, but there are no absolute guarantees, because the issue may be something installed on your computer and external to the MacOS or browser.

I encourage you to turn on the automatic update. As Artie has learned it keeps things running smoothly and the updates for the most part go unnoticed except for a notification on your screen that it has occurred. Like you, my wife is not amused with change, as a retired Presbyterian minister she would much rather be studying the latest trends in theology than in MacOS, but she has reconciled herself to the regular updates because they typically have very little impact on how she works on the computer. Any impact that it does have is generally so small that she quickly adapts to it. Even a major upgrade is no big deal because she has worked up to it in small increments. In your case you are faced with a significant learning curve specifically because you have postponed the inevitable upGRADE so you have a lot of steps to climb at once rather than one at a time.

Well, I guess it works for you. Darn! Well, that's good I guess.

I get why advertisers do what they do, but I rarely, if ever, buy anything from an advertisement.

Your wife doesn't like change either, but if she had waited like I have, at least she would have you to walk her through all the mazes!!

Is there a way to check what may be causing me my problem? I have disabled all my extensions which made no difference. Anything else that's not too complicated? Could it be Malwarebytes? There doesn't seem to be a way to disable that. And I only have the freeware, so it works manually only.

I may take you up on letting things automatically update. I may have been stubborn too long. I still have my other MacBook should I need to get something done while I'm in my learning curve. Expect lots of tears. It always happens when there's a major Mac change. Crummy mood for at least a week.

What if Rita created a new user to see if the browser/Amazon problem follows her there? Or has this already been tried?

Or clearing the browser cache?

And I was just about to suggest a safe boot.

Troubleshooting is slowly becoming a lost art.

OK, Rita:

1. Clear browser cache:
   1. Hit command-option-E
   2. Quit Safari.
   3. Launch Safari.
   4. Try Amazon.
2. Log in to a pristine user account:
   1. Go to System Preferences > Users & Groups (or whatever it's called in Sierra)
   2. Enter your password to unlock the padlock.
   3. If you've got "Guest User" in your sidebar enable it.
   4. If not, click on the plus sign and create a new account. (Admin or not doesn't matter.)
   5. Log in to whichever account you've enabled.
   6. Try Amazon.
3. How to use safe mode on your Mac - Apple Support:
   1. Boot into safe mode as per instructions in linked doc.
   2. Try Amazon.
4. Keep your fingers and toes crossed the entire time.
5. Report back.

It is also helpful to dance naked around the computer at midnight. The last time I tried it, the computer was fixed but the cat threw up.

Don't be silly! We're on different coasts, and there's never any telling when I'll be awake or asleep, and the bottom line is who cares if you post as long as you don't ring my phone? You post when you're awake, and I"ll always respond the next time I'm awake.


I would at this point. It's waaay outdated.


I'm really curious about that one.


I've got to correct joemike on this one. I don't use auto update, because I want to see what's going to happen before it's a fait accompli. I used to wait several days or longer to update, but now I"m down to 24-48 hours, and that's due to a large degree to the fact that I"ve got joemike doing reconnaissance for me. (If Custer had had joemike as his scout, history would be different. )

Let's see how all the various up-in-the-air suggestions play out.

I'm not convinced that an upgrade alone will solve your problem, because Amazon worked just fine for me in High Sierra, and the fact that it doesn't work on your husband's iMac suggests that there's more than OS version in play here.

Please notice that I hedged my bet on Catalina
Also remember this about my scouting. It is based on my experience with beta releases (I am currently running MacOS 10.15.5, iOS 13.4.5, and iPadOS 13.4.5) and Apple has been know to remove features in the release version that were present in the beta or to drop in a last minute security patch that wasn't in the beta. So while I am out there in front, like the Commanche my then 18 year old great great grandfather scouted in the Republic of Texas, Apple can be tricky to scout.

If I turn on automatic update, will it automatically update my OS to Catalina?

OK, I did all those things to no avail. Another weird thing that is happening is that even if I can get to the "stars" and have them open, they stay on the original stars. In other words, when I click on 5 stars, 5 star reviews open up. If I then click on 3 stars, only 5 stars open. It just stays with the first choice. So weird. I'm still waiting for my friend with the same ISP to respond.

I did an experiment and opened Amazon on my iPhone. I had to tap the stars several times to see reviews, but finally they opened, but sometimes they don't. I turned off wi-fi and used my cellular data and the reviews worked fine! So, may it is my ISP???

So, our friend has the same ISP and has High Sierra. He has no problems with the reviews. I also had no problems when I used my cell phone without wi-fi. So, now my question is: Could it be our router? It's a Belkin and pretty old. I don't know the model number. I've noticed that most of the routers nowadays have obvious antennas on them except for some of the mesh routers. What do you think?

I've resisted getting a new router because I don't know how to set it up, and am afraid I could screw everything up and then we have no internet.

I also have older TP-Link power adaptors working off our router to power our Tivo. I don't want that messed up either.

*********

Unplug your router, wait 30 seconds, then plug it back in and once it has re-establiished a good connection you might find your solution.....

Unfortunately, I am always unplugging my router for various reasons. It's already been done. No difference.

I didn't miss it. I was just doubling down on it with a point.


Nothing's guaranteed, of course, which is why I still wait a day or two rather than dive right in.

Take a look at what Software Update offers; auto-update will presumably give you the same thing.

Well, the problem now appears to have been narrowed down to something within your four walls, so let's go for the one remaining opportunity for failure of which I'm aware: clearing cookies (which has never been mentioned, so I'm guessing that it hasn't been done).

First do a command-option-E; it will clear cache and make the list with which you've got to work next far less cumbersome.

Now go to Safari > Prefs > Privacy > Manage Website Data... and delete not just Amazon items, but every item that hasn't got the name of a website that you ordinarily visit.

Quit/relaunch Safari.

Holding my breath!

This is a new topic and well worthy of its own thread. Rather than divert this thread, may I suggest you ask this question in a new thread.

OK, I put it under Peripherals.

Done. No dice!

And no surprise.

The only thing I can think of at this point is for you to d/l Mojave or Catalina, but don't use it to upgrade your Sierra. Just install it, and without migrating any data or changing it in any way see if Amazon works in the default installation. (You can use your Mavericks partition; just erase it in Disk Utility first. You can erase it only from one of your Sierra volumes.)

It may not work, but it will eliminate a possibility if it doesn't, and if it does, we can run with it from there.

So you don't think it could be an old router problem?

So, if I download Mojave or Catalina in my erased Mavericks partition, it will leave Sierra alone and not upgrade it? That's how it works?

What do you mean I can erase it from one of my Sierra volumes? Wouldn't a Sierra volume just have Sierra on it? Do you mean erase it from my internal hard drive and not my external drive? Mavericks is only on my external drive.

I've got no expertise, not even a little bit of amateurise, in routers, but as I see it, the problem is too narrowly defined to be a router issue. Ira just responded negatively in your other post, and joemike, whom I'd call our local expert in this sort of stuff, hasn't contributed, so your router is probably not at issue.

The Mojave and Catalina installers can be run in two ways: they can either upGRADE your Sierra volume or they can do a CLEAN INSTALLATION. You want to do the latter.

• Connect your external drive.
• Boot into either Sierra volume.
• Navigate to /System/Applications/Utilities/Disk Utility.app.
• Select the Mavericks partition in DU's sidebar.
• Hit "Erase," follow the prompts, and name the newly erased volume either Mojave or Catalina.
• Quit Disk Utility.
• Download whichever of the OSs you decide to install. (The d/l'ed installer will go to /Applications.)
• Launch the installer and follow the prompts to the pane that tells you the default installation destination and offers you an option to change destinations.
• Select the volume you just erased and renamed. (You do NOT want to install on either Sierra volume!)
• Hit the "Start" button, and when the process is complete you'll have a pristine, vanilla, untouched by human hands installation.
• Try Amazon.
• Report success.

I think that answers all of your questions.

Artie: You answered all but two questions: Again, what do you mean by Sierra Volume? I've got two partitions with different Sierras and one with Mavericks on my extended HD. They are all volumes, right??? I understand that I am to erase Mavericks and install M or C onto it and rename it, and not install M or C onto one of my Sierra partitions. So, when you say "boot into the Sierra Volume" do mean just connect my extended HD and go to Mavericks partition? Sorry, but I'm having problems with the wording as I know I am not to disturb either one of my Sierras since I want a clean install. Actually, I don't need Sierra 2012 for sure.

Also, if I do a clean install on my external drive and I like it, I should do likewise on my internal drive into a partition named M or C, correct? Unless I want to integrate all my stuff that is in Sierra. Can't you just come here and do it for me? If you are getting frustrated with my unending questions,, sic someone else on me. This is a little (or a lot) beyond my pay grade. I do have the instructions JoeMike sent me on how to install Catalina onto my internal HD. OK, I wore myself out!

******

1: When you say Sierra Volume

First, volume and partition are the same for these purposes.

You can't do a clean installation on the Mavericks partition (volume) as it stands; you've got to erase it first, and you can only do that while you're booted into one of your Sierra partitions - It doesn't matter which one. - while your external is connected.

If this works and you can navigate Amazon successfully from your pristine M/C installation, then we'll discuss what to do next.

Goodness, Rita! You've got it backwards. Thank you for coming up with a time-consuming problem when I've got altogether too much time on my hands.

Goin' back to sleep now.

Glad to help with all that time on your hands!!! LOL! I still don't get the part about booting into Sierra when I have a Mavericks partition, but I will try to follow instructions....only don't hold your breath with this one, it may take me some time.

I don't want to interfere with Artie's guiding your through the Catalina trial, after all I have been encouraging you to install it all along 🙄, but another possible source of interference has occurred to me.

In System Preferences > Network select WiFi in the sidebar then click the Advanced tab near the bottom right of the window. In that window click on the tab labeled DNS at the top of the window. Then in the DNS Servers pane there should be at least one string of numbers like nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn (they may be greyed out)

What are those numbers?

OMG! I just got it. Why did it take so long? I can't boot from Mavericks because if I did, I wouldn't be able to erase it! Yikes. I need to rest my brain. Or maybe it needs to wake up! Cripes! I know you are probably slapping your forehead but so am I!

The DNS numbers are not grayed out. They are 192.168.2.1. That's weird. Why would my IP address show up under my DNS tab? I do have a DNS program that is supposed to protect my smart TV like a VPN does. I've had it quite awhile and it never caused this.

Update:

I neglected to say that I have the same DNS program on my computer, so that may make more sense. I added the 8.8.8.8 dns number but no difference.

I just checked some other sites' reviews and I am having some of the same problems. Before that wasn't so.

By George, she's got it!

Well, guess what? I connected my ext. HD and went into Sierra 2012. It was as if it was Sierra 2015. Same OS stats, etc. So I went out and booted into Mavericks just to see if About my Mac would mention Mavericks. Before I got a chance to do that, after I booted into Mavericks, and all I got was a blank page with a circle with a line through it. The only way out was to reboot! I guess maybe I will go into Sierra and see if I can erase Sierra 2012 and go from there. I'm to brain tired to do it now. Wish me luck.

******

That circle with a line through it was a prohibited sign. (Can you still boot into the Sierra partition on your external?)

I don't know what's going on with your external, so I'd erase it totally and reformat it HFS+ with two partitions, one for a new clone of your latest Sierra and the second to install Mojave/Catalina, but before either cloning or installing I"d go into Disk Utility and run Repair Disk on the drive just to make sure that it hasn't got any evident problems.

Got my fingers crossed for you.

Thx for the finger crossing! Yeah, like I said. I went into Sierra 2012 but it looked just like Sierra 2015. I will attempt erasing everything. I'll let you know how it goes.

******

I found my IP address there once and never figured out how it got there, but a bit of research taught that it's neither extraordinary nor bad.

I replaced it with both Open DNS and Google numbers, but I"ll let joemike go there.

I think you ought to do a bit of research and find out where iCloud settings are in Sierra 2015 and make sure it's not turned on before you start installing and cloning.

Getting back to dkmarsh's thought, your external is behaving as if it is.

More: How often do you update your Sierra clone under ordinary circumstances?

8.8.8.8 is Google's DNS number, but only half of it. On a second line you need to enter 8.8.4.4.

Like so:
8.8.8.8
8.8.4.4

After you've erased and run Repair Disk, let me know what RD returned.

That prohibited sign makes me uneasy, and I may suggest a second test before you install or clone.

OK, I'll check my iCloud settings. I don't want to use it, so I'll check.

Honestly, I rarely backup my Sierra. I was really into it at one point,but now I hardly ever think to.

OK. I thought I had a choice between the two! One was primary and one was secondary which I thought meant optional.

Update: When I went in to correct the DNS numbers the 8.8.8.8 had disappeared! Just my ip address is there. Dang! I put it in again along with 8..8.4.4.

I ran the First Aid from Utility Disk on my Mac. It was fine. I guess you meant on the ext. H.D. as well?[


quote=artie505]
After you've erased and run Repair Disk, let me know what RD returned.

That prohibited sign makes me uneasy, and I may suggest a second test before you install or clone. [/quote]

I didn't erase anything yet, but I went into the ext. HD and ran disk utility, I took screen shots. The weird thing is that when I ran it on Mavericks it said it was repairing it and at the end it said it was fine. I clicked on Mavericks after that and still got the blank screen with the circle and line. In Sierra 2015 it said it was corrupted, but it never said it was repairing it but that it needed repair. Gee thanks. And on the Sierra 2012 it said it was repairing it and it was fine. Who knows?

Screen Shot
Screen Shot
ScreenShot

Not to get preachy, but if you're not running Time Machine, which I think is the case, maintaining at least a reasonably current clone as backup in the event something goes wrong is in your best interests. (You bought the hardware; you may as well use it for the purpose for which you bought it. )

I wouldn't be surprised if the number reverts again.

I think it's your ISP that's doing it...wants you to use them as your DNS resolver. (My ISP probably did the same thing but didn't balk when I changed the numbers.)

I should have specified that in addition to running RD on each partition you need to run it on the drives themselves, i.e. the top line items in DU's sidebar that identify the drives' manufacturers.

To repair Sierra 2015 and anything else that may turn up needing repair, boot into Recovery - command-R - and search for DU. (I think it'll be under "Utilities" in your menu bar.)

I'll wait for the results from both drives before going any further.

Not that I"m terribly at all optimistic, but don't forget to try Amazon after you repair Sierra 2015.

Have you got TechTool Pro, Drive Genius, or anything of that ilk?

It was a longshot but easy enough to try out. 🤷‍♂️
That is a preferred practice, but the first IP address is sufficient and the IP addresses can be in either order. The second IP address is Google's alternate server DNS as a fallback in case the first server fails to respond. I have only used a single DNS server address for years because I have a customized DNS server set to my own preferences. It is even possible to mix and match DNS providers. For example:

8.8.8.8
208.67.222.222

You can also list more than two DNS servers and they will be tried in order. This can be useful in international travel.

Thanks for the clarification.

I've got both of Open DNS's numbers followed by both of Google's numbers in my DNS pane.

Talk about redundancy!

For what it is worth I feel compelled to add my wholehearted AMEN! to Artie's comment.

Just thought of this!

When you boot into Recovery to repair Sierra 2015 you'll have access to Safari. Give Amazon a try.

OK, I am assuming I was to boot in recovery in my internal SSD. Because if I am in my external drive, rebooting would eject my ext drives as usual, right?

I booted into recovery. I chose Mac HD and it said it was repairing it.

I then chose my Mojave empty partition and then my empty Catalina partition. They both said the file systems were being repaired. What??? Nothing was in them. Anyway, I clicked on Safari via Recovery Drive and it said I was not connected to the internet, so I couldn't even go to the apple sight it pointed me to for questions. I went to my other Mac and it was connected to wi-fi just fine.

Woe is me! When this Corona things is all over and we can go to the Apple Store I probably will have to take mine in. It's an hour away. My AppleCare will be expired, but Apple told me that if I called with a question (which I did and they couldn't help) I could take it in for free after things are open. I hate to wait that long, but what else can I do?

Also, I am wondering if I use a couple of flash drives and put Mojave on one and Catalina on the other if it wouldn't make it all simpler for me as a backup. My clunky Passport External drive is a pain to use anyway. I've never used a flash drive, so I hope it's a simple process (for me).

No, I don't use Time Machine. I find it confusing to find what I need. I've tried it several times. I just don't like it.

Yep, I know I should back up regularly. I don't use Time Machine. I don't like it, that's why I got an external drive. Now I'm thinking about flash drives and hoping they will be easier for me to use.

Nope. I used to use the free TechTool way back in the day, but it never seemed to do much of anything. I also hate paying for stuff like that. There used to be a free apple app called something like tool box or mechanic or something. The icon had a hammer and something else. I had to use it once and it worked perfectly and fixed the problem. I guess that's gone now.



Have you got TechTool Pro, Drive Genius, or anything of that ilk? [/quote]

The DNS numbers are still there, but that could change.




I wouldn't be surprised if the number reverts again.

I think it's your ISP that's doing it...wants you to use them as your DNS resolver. (My ISP probably did the same thing but didn't balk when I changed the numbers.) [/quote]

I checked and I am not signed into iCloud anywhere. Thank goodness.

Recovery has nothing to do with drives. "(Apple) macOS Recovery is part of the built-in recovery system of your Mac." It's a firmware function, I guess.


Even though there's neither OS nor data in those partitions there's underlying macOS info that was created when you created them. That's what DU addressed.

But your original reason for booting into Recovery was specifically to repair Sierra 2015; did you do that?


Recovery hasn't got access to the info on your drive, so you've got to click on the icon in the top right corner, select your network, and enter your password to get onto the Internet.

Please boot back into Recovery with your external attached and do the following:

• Get Safari working and see if Amazon works for you. Regardless of whether it's "yes" or "no," it'll be the first concrete piece of info about your specific situation that we'll have.
• Launch Disk Utility and
  • Repair Sierra 2015
  • Repair the top line item that names the manufacturer of your internal drive.
  • Repair the top line item that names the manufacturer of your external drive.

I'm not sure why you think you need to go to the Apple Store, but yes, if you call in - and you always want to get a case number - before your AppleCare expires you're good for that particular issue afterwards.


I can't help you with that one, but why have you got a Mojave partition and a Catalina partition when you intend to install only one of the two OSs?

But your original reason for booting into Recovery was specifically to repair Sierra 2015; did you do that? Yep.

Recovery hasn't got access to the info on your drive, so you've got to click on the icon in the top right corner, select your network, and enter your password to get onto the Internet. Didn't know about that, thanks.

Please boot back into Recovery with your external attached and do the following:

• Get Safari working and see if Amazon works for you. Regardless of whether it's "yes" or "no," it'll be the first concrete piece of info about your specific situation that we'll have. Done. Nope, same issues.
• Launch Disk Utility and
  • Repair Sierra 2015
  • Repair the top line item that names the manufacturer of your internal drive.
  • Repair the top line item that names the manufacturer of your external drive.

Done and Done. Report said all was well. Tried Safari again. Same thing. When I tried Safari again I clicked on a product and then clicked on the stars. I got the message: Safari could not d/l the file "ref=acr_dpx_hist_5" because the disk doesn't have enough free space. Try deleting document or downloading to another disk.


I'm not sure why you think you need to go to the Apple Store, but yes, if you call in - and you always want to get a case number - before your AppleCare expires you're good for that particular issue afterwards. Well, I was thinking I may need to go to the Apple Store if I can't get it fixed on my own with all the help I get on FTM.


I can't help you with that one, but why have you got a Mojave partition and a Catalina partition when you intend to install only one of the two OSs? [/quote]

I forgot to answer this question. Because I wasn't sure whether I would want both or not. I talked back and forth about it in earlier posts.

Why have you got a Mojave partition and a Catalina partition when you intend to install only one of the two OSs? [/quote]

RE: Flash drives. While it is possible to have a bootable coy of an OS on a flash drive, if you don't mind waiting five or ten minutes to boot up and every thing running as if it were in a jar of molasses stored in a refrigerator. They are totally inappropriate for Time Machine backups not only because they are painfully slow but they lack the capacity for the job. To top everything else off, they do not simplify the job.

External hard drives are cheap and easy to use if you do not over complicate things with multiple partitions and/or volumes.

Years ago I managed to get a stripped down version of, maybe Leopard, maybe Snowy, onto an 8 GB flash drive, and it booted remarkably quickly, no more than 3 minutes, and it actually ran OK.

For its emergency purpose, it was great.

Confirmation, please.

Rita experienced her same issue with Amazon with Safari while booted into Recovery. Am I correct in assuming that that takes her OS totally off the hook?

Thanks.

OK, that made me laugh out loud. I do know that when I go in as another user, it looks like I'm typing under water. Or is that when it's in safe mode? I can't remember. Oh well. Too lazy to check now.

Something to think about, although totally the opposite of what JoeMike said.

Thanks for putting that out there. Firefox doesn't work properly either, remember? I hope we can find a solution to all this. I know upgrading is what most people want me to do, but obviously some people can use High Sierra without problems. Maybe I can just go up a notch. Can anyone send me a link to High Sierra so I can try that? If so, will it just update my Sierra or do I have to use migration assistant if I want all the same apps I have now?

If you boot using ⌘R, the Recovery drive is a small subset of the version of MacOS that is currently installed on her boot drive. If you boot using ⌥⌘R that uses the internet Recovery Drive and I have no idea what MacOS version that would be a subset of.

Given that a Recovery Drive image will boot almost any Mac made in the last decade, I would be surprised if there was anything sufficiently version specific to make any difference one way or another on accessing an internet web site. However, under the circumstances it would appear to eliminate any user or system settings, extensions, utilities, etc.

If we weren't all sheltering in place I would suggest taking the MacBook to a Starbucks, or some similar location, connecting to their WiFi and seeing if the results are any different. Based on the prior results with Rita's iPhone I suspect they will be. That would appear to leave the ISP, modem, or Router as the culprit.

Totally in keeping, but not in agreement, with what joemike said:

That's because Recovery isn't an OS and doesn't have any ability or even space to accept downloads. The "free space" pop-up was probably the best it could do.

Got it, but unless you intend to install both of them you'll only need one partition. You can change its name on the fly any time you like.

As respects that experiment, Firefox is academic, but in keeping with joemike's recent post let's give Recovery > Safari one more shot, but this time use a command-option-R boot, and let's see what happens. (I'm not the least bit optimistic, but let's play out all the options.)

The "Get from App Store" link on this MacUpdate page takes me to the App Store page from which you can d/l High Sierra.

If you d/l and run the installer from within Sierra 2015 it will point to Sierra 2015 by default and upgrade it with no loss of data or apps.

But again, let's hold off on that until we run out of other options.

Rita is there a Starbucks or similar nearby that you might go and park outside the store, but your Mac is in range of their WiFi and see if the problem persists? I was out this morning and stopped in front of a Starbucks and my iPhone immediately connected to their WiFi so it is working even if the store is closed but the drive through is open. That test would be VERY informative.

Precisely what I was thinking but didn't post quickly enough!

I do have a Starbucks in town that I can park in front of. I will try it. I hope I don't need a password.

Good to know. I was thinking about renaming it if I had to.

I tried the command+option+R thing. It brought up a black screen with a spinning globe of the earth. Below that it said "Choose Network". It had a drop down box with a check mark and an x. Below that box was another one with three dots. I clicked on the dots and got another two more drop down boxes. The top one showed a wifi icon and a box to fill in something. I tried my network name and it didn't work (you know that little jerk it does when the word put in isn't correct?). So then I put in my router password. It didn't react with a jerk so I thought I was getting somewhere. Below that was a box with a lock symbol and a space to type something in, but it wouldn't take anything. Below that was an "X" next to a check mark. No more action. I had to reboot to get out of that page. Escape didn't work.

I've run into this globe page before in the past when trying to do something.

Well, well, well. After all of that, guess what? I went to Starbucks, and Amazon worked perfectly on Safari and Firefox. Now what? Call my ISP and ask if they changed anything? Go into my networks and see if I should change something?

Update: Of course our friend who has the same ISP says it works on his High Sierra, but it doesn't work on my husband's High Sierra. So, it's still a big mystery!!!

The fact your friend with the same ISP has no problem would seem to eliminate the ISP. You have already tested the DNS server and eliminated it. The only thing that hasn't been eliminated is your router although that seems an unlikely cause. But as Sherlock Holmes famously said, "When all the possible solutions have been eliminated all that remains is the impossible" or words to that effect. Unfortunately that is not subject to anything you can change or modify on your computer and the only way I know of to test the theory is to replace the router and there is no guarantee that would work.

Lifewire's 10 best router list for 2020 appealed to my tastes, but there are certainly other top 10 lists and other routers. In my opinion a mesh router beats a router with repeater(s) hands down particularly if you have a multi-story or rambling ranch style house. It isn't on the top 10 list but I really like my Plume router which has a unique mesh router solution and is supporting 25 or 30 devices flawlessly.

🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️ That's three dopeslaps to me. Contact your ISP and see if they can provide a WiFi Router/modem (that is a router and modem in the same case). They would install it so you wouldn't have to worry about setup and IF that does not solve the problem you could...

1. get them involved in the troubleshooting
2. Tell them to take it back and you would not be out any money

I called my ISP (small company and I talked to the owner). He said nothing has changed on his end. I did find out something interesting, though. Even though I tried Safari and Firefox, I neglected to test Tor. When I did, I had no problems pulling up the reviews. It's just normal like it was before with Safari and Firefox. I am hoping that is some sort of clue!

Regarding the router, I've heard it's better not to incorporate it with the modem and I forget why. Maybe because if it goes bad, you don't know if it's the router or the modem? Anyway, if push comes to shove, I will first update my firmware and if that doesn't make a difference, I will get a new router at least. But I thought it was interesting that I have no review problems on Tor of all things!

The TOR (The Onion Router) is a major clue! It is designed to connect to and route all its traffic through the TOR network which is established automatically when TOR launches. It effectively bypasses your local router's functionality when accessing the web. I REPEAT: It effectively bypasses your local router's functionality..

The improbable solution, your router, has become the prime suspect. Then there is th: update or replace decision. All things considered replacement is probably your best solution.

I think this may now be pertinent...

I noticed that when Rita clicks on the 5 star reviews, the weird .dms file she gets has got a "5" in its name, suggesting that rather than accessing the reviews themselves she's accessing the underlying data.

Is it possible that her IP address is somehow getting her into the wrong "level" at Amazon, and when Tor hides her address she gets into the correct level?

Is this, then, a job for Amazon tech support?

I tried to get this information to Amazon tech support days ago. But if you've ever dealt with Amazon customer service (which is everywhere but in the USA for now) you get nowhere fast. Finally, after talking to a third person, they said they would report it to tech. That may or may not happen. I'm not holding my breath.

OK. I will talk with my husband about it. Normally I make these decisions, but if I don't do it correctly and we can't get internet, I will have to live with Mr. Grumpy until it's fixed! I also will contact my ISP and ask for another router or ask which one they would suggest. I will also ask them to come fix it if I goof up. Thanks for the suggestion and maybe the total possible answer!

I am numbering my questions so they can both be answered.

I texted my ISP guy. He suggested Netgear for a router.

1) Is that really the best?

I don't want the most expensive router. Just a middle of the road one that will work. I live in a one-story, 1400 square foot house, no upstairs. The old Belkin router I have takes care of the whole house.

I do know that we can't both use the Firestick at the same time. My internet is fast enough for me, but it's only a little over 1 to 2 megabits/second for downloading. (I'm used to much slower internet speed, so this is speedy for me.)

2) Would a newer, faster router make it possible to maybe be able to use both firesticks at the same time?

Addendum: I just looked at the plume router link but don't see a price. I don't want to pay a yearly fee. I am looking at the ten best routers next but usually always pick by price.

I know I'm cheaping out, but plenty of people seem to be happy with this router. I also have TP-Link power adapters so maybe this is a good choice. TP-Link Router

Hi Rita, let me chime in here......for your needs as you have described them, the TP-Link 1200 router you've linked to should be adequate. I personally would always go just a little bit better than "adequate" with the idea that you won't always stay at the same level of need, and maybe you might want just a little overhead space for increased capacity.

So might I suggest you take a look at the Next step up as a possible consideration.

The price is close to your original choice and the reviews are just as good or better.

Let us know.

I looked at the router. I can't tell much difference except maybe it covers more square footage and it will allow VPN access. Do they not all do this, (vpn access).

It's close enough in price that I can go with it. I just don't know what to look for as far as it having a little more capability. I am not interested in Alexa.

Thanks for your input. Reading the negative reviews is scary but that's with anything.

Hi, Rita,

All this router stuff is way beyond me, so back to troubleshooting so if/when you upgrade you won't run into any problems.

After all you've done, do you still get a prohibited sign when you try to boot into Mavericks?

I was not able to use the command-option-R boot without getting that globe thing I mentioned. So, I wasn't able to run disk utility in that mode. Otherwise, yes I still got the prohibited sign when I checked Mavericks the other way after running DU.

I'm going to check out command-option-R just for the heck of seeing what you ran into.

But regardless, before you upgrade I think it will pay you to run a "surface scan" on your external to eliminate a possible root cause of that prohibited sign, which just plain should not be happening. You don't want that drive to be compromised while you're into the upgrade process, because it's your backup.

Please copy & paste "diskutil list" (withOUT the quotes) into /System/Applications/Utilities/Terminal and post your results. (Don't forget to edit out your name if it's there.)

And now for dinner!

Hmmm... I wonder if that whole rigamarole is a sign of a router problem.

When I just did a command-option-R boot I didn't have to select a network. My network was automatically selected and its password was automatically entered.

I have had both experiences with ⌥⌘R and IIRC the first time I used it was when I had to click on the network icon, select my network, and logon. The next time it just logged on, but I wouldn't swear to that.

Regarding Routers:

• Unless you are a serious online game player with a dedicated game playing computer you are unlikely to ever use the maximum speed available
• The average user will get the best experience from a router that provides low latency
• The claimed range and speed of routers is measured under ideal condiitons in a lab and has little to do with real world performance
• Combined router/modems generally belong to the ISP and are rented by the user, so if either side breaks the device is replaced by the ISP at no cost to the user

You seem to have a good relationship with your ISP, talk to him and see what, if anything, he has to offer. It might save headaches in the future.

I've got a feeling that I may have tried ⌥⌘R in the past, but I'm not sure either if, when. or how it went down, and IF I did, it was several computers ago (if that means anything).

Under any circumstances, though, the difference between my and Rita's experiences was worth mentioning.

You mean use terminal for my internal drive? This is what I got:

Last login: Thu Apr 23 11:05:19 on console
MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ diskutil list
/dev/disk0 (internal, physical):
#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER
0: GUID_partition_scheme *121.3 GB disk0
1: EFI EFI 209.7 MB disk0s1
2: Apple_HFS Macintosh HD 46.3 GB disk0s2
3: Apple_Boot Recovery HD 650.0 MB disk0s3
4: Apple_HFS Catalina 44.1 GB disk0s4
5: Apple_HFS Mojave 29.8 GB disk0s5

That's never been the case for me, even when I first got this mac almost 3 years ago. I always get that globe and drop downs that I can't do anything with.

When I just did a command-option-R boot I didn't have to select a network. My network was automatically selected and its password was automatically entered. [/quote]

Sorry for not being explicit, Rita.

I meant with your external connected. It's the external I think you to examine.

So run the command in Sierra 2015 but with your external connected. That will give you results for both your internal and external.

By the way, what's in the Mojave and Catalina partitions? Did you install them?

My ISP guy only suggested Netgear. He doesn't supply the router though I think he did the first time and the modem. That's why I was asking for ideas about routers. I'm probably going to get a cheap TP-Link router for now.

I knew you would ask about Mojave and Catalina! No, it's just the names of the partitions. I'm not sure what I am going to do yet about upgrading. OK, I'm going to Sierra 2015 on my external and do the terminal thing again.

OK, here's the report on the external drive: Last login: Thu Apr 23 11:25:00 on console
MacBook-Pro:~ (MYNAME)$ diskutil list
/dev/disk0 (internal, physical):
#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER
0: GUID_partition_scheme *121.3 GB disk0
1: EFI EFI 209.7 MB disk0s1
2: Apple_HFS Macintosh HD 46.3 GB disk0s2
3: Apple_Boot Recovery HD 650.0 MB disk0s3
4: Apple_HFS Catalina 44.1 GB disk0s4
5: Apple_HFS Mojave 29.8 GB disk0s5

/dev/disk1 (external, physical):
#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER
0: GUID_partition_scheme *1.0 TB disk1
1: EFI EFI 209.7 MB disk1s1
2: Apple_HFS 333.4 GB disk1s2
3: Apple_HFS Mavericks 333.4 GB disk1s3
4: Apple_HFS 2015 Sierra MBP 75.4 GB disk1s4
5: Apple_HFS 2012 MBP Sierra 257.3 GB disk1s5

Doh! I spaced out and confused the sizes of the partitions with the sizes of their contents.

Perfect!

Now please copy & paste into Terminal and hit "return."

If you get a "Warning" pop-up, click past it and enter your password at the prompt. You won't see any indication that you've entered anything, but hit "return" anyhow.

I've got absolutely no idea how long this command will take to run. It depends on HDD size, connection speed, computer speed, and block size (which I"ve adjusted to make it run faster). I'm going to guess an hour or two, and I may be WILDLY off in either direction.

Please go to /System/Applications/Utilities/Activity Monitor and look for process "dd" to ensure that the process is running after you've presumably started it in Terminal.

"dd" runs in the background, so you can go about your normal computing activities while it's running.

Please post your results when the process has run its course.

I am assuming we are still in the external HD?

After all this is settled, you need to strongly consider a round of MAJOR housecleaning getting rid of old MacOS versions and repartitioning and reformatting both of your drives. Your drives are becoming so fractured the partitions may become unusably small and unlike APFS volumes removing a partition may not be possible or it may destroy data in other partitions. You really need to simplify.

Your idea of moving partitions with antique MacOS versions to thumb drives may be the best solution to your current situation after all! (Then you can throw them into a desk drawer and forget them.😉)

You want to be booted into Sierra 2015 Macintosh HD on your internal SSD with your external HDD connected when you run the command.

Technically, you could also run it while booted into a bootable partition on your external, but since your external is suspect, let's avoid using it and stick to your REAL OS, i.e. the one on your internal.

I"ve been trying to figure out how to explain this, and I think I've finally got it.

When you're booted into Macintosh HD on your internal, and your external is connected, EVERY other partition and the OS on it, on both your internal and external drives, is a "subset" of Macintosh HD.

That is, MHD is the partition/OS you're actually using, and you can't use any of the others, but you can manipulate them and the data on them with Disk Utility, Terminal and Finder.

So when you say "we are still in the external HD" you're drawing a meaningless distinction.

We're "manipulating" the external without actually being in it (although we could be in it if we preferred).

You confused me. So, I connect the external drive and click on Sierra 2015 on my external drive, then run terminal? I don't know how to run something on my internal drive with an external drive connected. It seems contradictory. Please clear this up for me. In your attempt to clear it up, you made it worse. LOL!

I dunno. I thought was pretty explicit.

I guess this is why I'm one of the only people in my entire large family who's not a teacher.

No! You boot into your internal drive - Macintosh HD - connect your external, launch Terminal - The only Terminal you can launch is the one on the partition into which you're booted. - and run the command, which will perform a "surface scan" on your external...not any specific partition, but the drive itself.

You DO NOT need to be booted into the external to run the command on it, because, as I tried to explain, it's a "subset" of MHD, or think of it as just another folder, the contents of which happen to be macOS installations rather than documents.

OK. So, I attach the external drive but I don't boot into it by using the option key. I just connect it to my computer and then run terminal. I think I have it straight now. I will do it tomorrow. Thanks for getting back to me.

That's correct.

I will do that. I didn't think my mac would recognize the extended HD without booting into it. Here goes... Uh oh. Got this message in Terminal: [b]Last login: Thu Apr 23 11:33:24 on console
MacBook-Pro:~ myname$ sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk1 of=/dev/null conv=noerror bs=5120
Password:
dd: /dev/rdisk1: No such file or directory

[/b]

Update: Oops, I forgot to connect my ext. hd. I did connect it and tried Terminal again but it wouldn't let me erase the first message. How to I clear it? I quit Terminal but it's still there. Why is this so hard?

Terminal is tricky! I went through the same aggravation long ago, with the same process, I think. "dd" keeps running even after you quit Terminal; control-C should terminate it.

You need to edit out your name if that's your preference.

I typed in "clear" into Terminal to clear it per instructions on the net. It didn't work. I still got this:

https://imgur.com/aJSAbeS

wtmp begins Wed Jul 3 09:52
MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk1 of=/dev/null conv=noerror bs=5120
-bash: MacBook-Pro:~: command not found
MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ Password:
-bash: Password:: command not found
MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ dd: /dev/rdisk1: No such file or directory
-bash: dd:: command not found
MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ clear

***********

Did you hit control-C as I suggested?

You need to edit out your name in post #54306.

Yes. I hadn't read your note yet, but now I hit control -C. I didn't forget to clear my name, I just missed it. I cleared it everywhere I saw it. Then I did Terminal again and got this:

Last login: Fri Apr 24 09:21:09 on ttys000
MacBook-Pro:~ $
MacBook-Pro:~ $ wtmp begins Wed Jul 3 09:52
-bash: wtmp: command not found
MacBook-Pro:~ $ MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk1 of=/dev/null conv=noerror bs=5120
-bash: syntax error near unexpected token `my'
MacBook-Pro:~ $ -bash: MacBook-Pro:~: command not found
-bash: -bash:: command not found
MacBook-Pro:~ $ MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ Password:
-bash: syntax error near unexpected token `my'
MacBook-Pro:~ $ -bash: Password:: command not found
-bash: -bash:: command not found
MacBook-Pro:~ $ MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ dd: /dev/rdisk1: No such file or directory
-bash: syntax error near unexpected token `my'
MacBook-Pro:~ $ -bash: dd:: command not found
-bash: -bash:: command not found
MacBook-Pro:~ $ MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ clear


I tried Control-C again after this above and all it did was keep adding my name. It wouldn't clear! I'm starting to not like Terminal.

As I said, Terminal's tricky. Many posters here won't even dip a toe into it.

That last line is confusing me: MacBook-Pro:~ $ MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ clear

Where did the "clear" come from? Without it it looks like a standard prompt that you'd expect when you terminate a process.

If you search /Applications/Utilities/Activity Monitor for dd, does it come up, i.e. is the process still running?

If "dd" is running in AM, try to quit/force quit it, and see what happens in Terminal.

If that doesn't work, shut down your MBP and see what happens when you start it up again. (If you get a pop-up that "xyz process" is preventing shutdown, go back to AM and quit/force quit xyz process.)

I didn't know which process to look into so I looked into them all. I didn't see any dd. The word "clear" came from typing it in like you said so I could clear the AM.

I still don't see dd anywhere.

There's a search field in AM's top right corner. You type in "dd" and see if you get an exact hit.

I never said anything about typing "clear" anywhere; you got that from somewhere on the web, and it's a totally wrong command.

Meanwhile, it sounds like control-C terminated the process for you.

Please copy & paste what you see in Terminal if you quit and relaunch it...BEFORE you enter any commands.

More: You still haven't edited your name out of post #54306.

You're right. I put in "clear" from off the web like I told you. It wasn't you, I now remember. I put the dd in search before I looked at the processes and nothing popped up.

I don't know why my name keeps popping up. I swear I looked and deleted what I could. I'm not going to worry about it. I like privacy as much as the next person, but, again, I'm just not worried about it.

I just now quit Terminal and relaunched. Here is what is says minus my name.

Last login: Fri Apr 24 11:22:19 on ttys000
MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$

OK, great! control-C turned the trick, and that's a standard Terminal prompt waiting for a command.

Now:

• Enter the command I gave you.
• Hit return.
• Enter your password. (As I said, you won't see anything, not even stars.)
• Hit return again.

If everything is working correctly you won't see any indication that anything is happening, and that means that the command is running.

When the command has run it's course it will populate Terminal with its results, and you'll see the prompt again. It's NOT finished until you see the prompt.

Then post your results.

It's running now I guess. What will the prompt say, and what do I do with it when it shows, or will it tell me what to do since it's a prompt?

The prompt is
It indicates the previous command has finished executing and the system is waiting for another command.

The prompt is "MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$."

When you see it, it means that your command has finished running and Terminal is "prompting" you to enter your next command, but you haven't got a next command, so just copy your entire Terminal screen and paste it into a post.

OK. Simple enough.

Thank you!

Any results from the previous command will be listed above the prompt and those results are what Artie is looking for.

OK.

Will it continue to run if my computer falls asleep? If not, how do I keep it awake?

I don't now what will happen if your computer falls asleep, and I"m not eager to find out the hard way.

Go into System Prefs > Energy Saver and look in the "Power Adapter" pane. I've got a check box that says "Prevent computer from sleeping automatically when the display is off." If you've got the same box, check it. If not, you'll have some similar setting that will keep your MBP awake.

Thanks. It was already checked! Whew!

An hour or two, I said?

Wildly off was a lot more like it!

I've never dealt with a terabyte before. And I actually juiced the command to get it to run faster. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've heard up to 1-1/2 days, so I'm not worried....yet. It does seem to be slowing down my Mac though.

Yeah, it will slow your MBP down, because it's an extra running process that's using system resources.

If you want to get an idea, search Activity Monitor for "dd," and you'll see precisely what CPU % it's using.

I remember the task once zipping by like lightning, but I guess I really juiced it that time.

Is this it, the prompt? I thought there would be more info like if everything is good or not.

Last login: Fri Apr 24 11:22:29 on ttys000
MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$ sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk1 of=/dev/null conv=noerror bs=5120
Password:
195345817+1 records in
195345817+1 records out
1000170586112 bytes transferred in 34736.077742 secs (28793423 bytes/sec)
MacBook-Pro:~ (my name)$

That's it, Rita.

The number of records in and out being equal means that the are no bad blocks on the drive.

OK, that having been established, nobody having contributed even a wild conjecture about why Mavericks boots to a prohibited sign, and Macintosh HD having been repaired, you're ready to move on to the the upgrade if that's where you're going.

The first thing I think you ought to do, and that's under any circumstances, is completely erase your external, reformat it with a well thought out partition scheme, and then clone Macintosh HD onto it.

Thank you! Though that's easier said than done. I'm not sure how to do all that. Do I boot up the ext HD with the option key and go from there to erase it?

I don't know how to reformat anything. When I first got the HD it was for a PC but I found out how to reformat it for a Mac. That was a long time ago and I don't remember a thing.

I should still probably get a new router because of how Amazon works with Starbucks wi-fi and TOR works as opposed to Safari and Firefox on Amazon.

So much to do! I do work 4 days a week, so I am not just sitting home like a lot of people right now.

Erasing your external driver is easy

1. Boot from your internal drive (you cannot erase the drive your are booted from)
2. Launch Disk Utility
3. Select your external drive in the Disk Utility sidebar (the drive itself not a partition on the disk)
4. On the menu bar select Erase
5. Enter an name for the drive
6. Format: Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
7. Scheme: GUID Partition Map
8. Click the button labeled Erase

That will yield a clean drive with one partition. If you want to partition the drive then

1. Boot from your internal drive
2. Launch Disk Utility
3. Select your external drive in the Disk Utility sidebar (the drive itself not a partition on the disk)
4. On the menu bar select Partition
5. Enter a name for the first partition
6. Format: Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
7. Size of the partition.
8. Click the plus sign under the picture of the drive
9. Enter the name, format and size of the second partition
10. repeat steps 8 and 9 until you have defined all the desired partitions
11. Click the button labeled Apply

I wish you were upgrading your system to Catalina so you could format the external drive APFS and use Volumes instead of partitions, they are so much more flexible and you don't have to worry about how big to make them.

And you can add and delete them at will.

APFS was first introduced with High Sierra, to which Rita's contemplating upgrading, and as I recall, you reported during the beta period that you can switch from HFS+ to APFS seamlessly by just clicking on "Convert to APFS" in Disk Utility.

Under APFS, though, if you want to maintain an onboard clone it must be in a separate container/partition unless you run with SIP disabled (and even then, only CCC can do it).

OK. I may try that tomorrow. I'm still contemplating upgrading to Catalina, but may do High Sierra first. I'm a big chicken, and I don't have anyone at my beck and call should I get stuck in the new way of things in Catalina. I know I can ask you guys, but I hate asking a million questions, which is what I do when I'm trying to learn anything.



Erasing your external driver is easy

1. Boot from your internal drive (you cannot erase the drive your are booted from)
2. Launch Disk Utility
3. Select your external drive in the Disk Utility sidebar (the drive itself not a partition on the disk)
4. On the menu bar select Erase
5. Enter an name for the drive
6. Format: Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
7. Scheme: GUID Partition Map
8. Click the button labeled Erase

That will yield a clean drive with one partition. If you want to partition the drive then

1. Boot from your internal drive
2. Launch Disk Utility
3. Select your external drive in the Disk Utility sidebar (the drive itself not a partition on the disk)
4. On the menu bar select Partition
5. Enter a name for the first partition
6. Format: Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
7. Size of the partition.
8. Click the plus sign under the picture of the drive
9. Enter the name, format and size of the second partition
10. repeat steps 8 and 9 until you have defined all the desired partitions
11. Click the button labeled Apply

I wish you were upgrading your system to Catalina so you could format the external drive APFS and use Volumes instead of partitions, they are so much more flexible and you don't have to worry about how big to make them. [/quote]

OK, I didn't understand a word of that, but then you were mostly talking to JoeMike.

It'll haunt you eventually.

Ask away. We are sheltered in place and I have thrown my back out so I can't stand at my lathe which leaves me with little do do. Besides that, as a former lecturer at the University level and technical instructor for Texas Instruments and Microsoft I am used to questions, they keep my mind sharp. I will let Artie speak for himself, but I get the feeling he has enjoyed this dialog and being able to help you as well.

Artie and I have been touting the benefits of APFS and throwing around a lot of terms you may not understand. I wrote the following for a friend who's computer skills are similar to yours and thought it might help you understand what we are talking about.

Can you tell I like APFS and Catalina?

I just found this well done OWC Blog on how to create APFS partitions and Containers

Thanks. Artie has always been helpful to me. He gets that I don't always get the technicalities and dumbs it down for me. And thanks for making me feel ok about asking tons of questions.

Ask away. We are sheltered in place and I have thrown my back out so I can't stand at my lathe which leaves me with little do do. Besides that, as a former lecturer at the University level and technical instructor for Texas Instruments and Microsoft I am used to questions, they keep my mind sharp. I will let Artie speak for himself, but I get the feeling he has enjoyed this dialog and being able to help you as well. [/quote]

Thanks for explaining, and reading that blog helped clarify things. It's a lot to take in and I don't know that I understand it all, but this is my take: In the APFS, partitions and containers are synonymous. I can make many volumes within one container. It is safer to change and remove volumes than it is to mess with partitions (containers). So, would it then be safe to say that since I don't have a lot of technical needs, it would be easier to just make different volumes for all my OS's rather than partitions?

Also, the blog said it's better not to put limits on volumes. So when I d/l another OS but want to keep the former one, how do I keep them in different volumes without one devouring the other (i.e.: I have Mojave and want to upgrade to Catalina and keep Mojave at the same time and separate.) The blog might have mentioned this but I can't keep it all straight for now. Oh, I just create a volume and download Catalina to that one different volume, right?

If I have my new OS in a different volume than my old OS, how do I integrate the apps and other things I want to have access to to my new OS if I keep them in separate volumes? I don't want to have to access my old OS to do this.

If I clean house and get rid of all of my old MacOS versions in my internal drive (SSD), how do I keep all the apps and utilities I have added to my old OS when downloading the new one?

Any volume may grow to occupy all the available space on the Container, but it cannot eat or use space that is already in use by another volume so if you have Catalina and Mojave installed on different volumes one cannot overwrite the other and both volumes would be full.


Catalina will create a Container in its volume and that Container will have not one but three volumes,

1. an APFS Volume Group "Macintosh HD" consisting of
   1. "Macintosh HD" a READ ONLY volume that contains the MacOS system and the MacOS standard apps such as Mail, Safari, Disk Utility, etc.
   2. "Macintosh HD - Data" a read/write volume that contains all of your user files and data as well as third party applications
2. "Preboot" a small invisible volume used by the system when initiating startup
3. "Recovery" the invisible Recovery drive

Artie can speak for himself, but I don't believe either of us contemplated your "cleaning" your MacBook Pro's internal SSD.

Our, or at least my suggestion about "cleaning house" on your external drive asumed there was no unique data or applications on that drive or that anything on that drive is so antique as to present a potential danger to your current data. Therefore you would not lose anything of value by erasing that drive and starting over from scratch. If that is not the case then you have a long tedious task ahead sorting and moving all the critical data you want to conserve. That might be a good use for high capacity thumb drives or, even better, an SD card if you have a reader.

If you install Mojave on your internal drive converting that drive to APFS is optional but highly recommended, if you choose Catalina converting the drive to APFS is mandatory. In either case the conversion is non-destructive and all of your compatible applications, settings, and data will be left untouched. Any applications that are incompatible will be moved to a special folder and an alias to that folder will be placed on your desktop so you will know what has happened to them. (I had a few files show up when I installed Catalina and frankly I didn't know what any of them were nor have I detected anything not working 🤷‍♂️) High Sierra, MacOS 10.13. can read data on an APFS drive but I don't believe it will install or run on APFS. Previous versions of MacOS cannot read or write to APFS volumes.

You said earlier: After all this is settled, you need to strongly consider a round of MAJOR housecleaning getting rid of old MacOS versions and repartitioning and reformatting both of your drives. Your drives are becoming so fractured the partitions may become unusably small and unlike APFS volumes removing a partition may not be possible or it may destroy data in other partitions. You really need to simplify.

When I read both your drives, I assumed you meant my Ext. HD and my SSD.

Also, if APFS started with High Sierra, I guess I can start with that and let it absorb my apps, etc. from Sierra when I update. I guess I will take away my two partitions that I made for Mojave and Catalina on my SSD for now. I will leave Sierra on my SSD and just update it with High Sierra and go from there. I wish I could make the leap you want me to, but I so dread the learning curve. I will have to just take one step at a time. If I continue to have problems with Amazon reviews (which is entirely possible) I will then order a new router.

Thanks again for all your input. I am taking some of your advice anyway.

*******

Our, or at least my suggestion about "cleaning house" on your external drive asumed there was no unique data or applications on that drive or that anything on that drive is so antique as to present a potential danger to your current data. Therefore you would not lose anything of value by erasing that drive and starting over from scratch. If that is not the case then you have a long tedious task ahead sorting and moving all the critical data you want to conserve. That might be a good use for high capacity thumb drives or, even better, an SD card if you have a reader.

If you install Mojave on your internal drive converting that drive to APFS is optional but highly recommended, if you choose Catalina converting the drive to APFS is mandatory. In either case the conversion is non-destructive and all of your compatible applications, settings, and data will be left untouched. Any applications that are incompatible will be moved to a special folder and an alias to that folder will be placed on your desktop so you will know what has happened to them. (I had a few files show up when I installed Catalina and frankly I didn't know what any of them were nor have I detected anything not working 🤷‍♂️) High Sierra, MacOS 10.13. can read data on an APFS drive but I don't believe it will install or run on APFS. Previous versions of MacOS cannot read or write to APFS volumes. [/quote]

High Sierra can READ an APFS volume, it cannot format or install on an APFS volume. You have to go all the way to Mojave or Catalina.

So, if it can read an APFS volume, doesn't that mean it can easily upgrade to Mojave or Catalina, which will be able to format or be installed onto an APFs volume?

The ability to READ an APFS volume will have no effect one way or the other in upgrading to Mojave or Catalina. You could just as well remain in Sierra. Remember that we are roughly six months away from MacOS 10.16 (the successor to Catalina) so putting off going to Catalina would mean your learning curve will just get higher and steeper the longer you hesitate.

Well, fudge!

So are you telling me that if I just upgrade to Sierra, and later decide to upgrade to Catalina or higher, I can't easily take my apps and utilities with me like I normally do when I upgrade, or did I misunderstand?

Was I right about the difference in thee two routers? I was awaiting an answer and then realized I really didn't ask you a question. Thanks.

That's partially true. 32-bit apps will not work in Catalina, and some of your 64-bit apps may have to be updated (if an update is available) for them to work.

For example, I always used MS Office 2008 (32-bit) pre-Catalina but it stopped working (and the apps won't even launch) in Catalina. I knew about this in advance and was ready for it. If you want to check compatibility before upgrading, explore https://roaringapps.com

It would be no harder or easier to install Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave, or Catalina. You would simply install the chosen OS version on your internal drive and all of your existing apps, settings, and data will remain untouched — provided they are compatible with the version of MacOS you are installing.

With Mojave and Catalina you would have the option to use APFS with all of its advantages on your external drive as well as your internal drive. With Sierra and High Sierra APFS is not an option on either your internal or external drive.

Thanks. I know about the 32 bit vs 64 bit apps. I earlier looked up my apps and the only ones I care about are already 64 bit! Yay!

So, let me drill down to what I really want to know. If I upgrade to High Sierra (which can read APFS) and decide to go with Mojave or Catalina later, will my 64 bit apps show up in said new OS, and would then said new OS use the APFS automatically, or by choice on my part, by clicking on something that says I want to use the APFS format? Or if there is no choice but to use APFS, I would hope it would just happen automatically. There, I've repeated myself several times. I hope I get my question across. If not, we are still not on the same page. LOL!

Artie!!! Hurry up and tell me in layman's terms a third grader can understand what I need to know here.

All your apps will show up in Mojave or Catalina. Be aware that not all 64-bit apps will work because some may be incompatible with either of those operating systems. That's why I suggested that you check out Roaring Apps to see if your favorites will work. Upgrading to Catalina automatically converts to APFS. If I recall correctly, Mojave does not guarantee it, but someone else will have to verify that.

OK, thanks. And thanks for reminding me to look at the app link. I just assumed 64 bit apps would all work. Hopefully, the ones I have will be listed.

Hi, Rita.

I'll be back later today. I've been working on an all-encompassing answer rather than jumping in on each post...and sleeping waaaaay more than I should

Hi Rita, I'm still not sure I get a question out of this, but let me just amplify on my original suggestion.....

Your first link was to a fairly basic wireless router / access point that should meet your needs as they stand right now....and the price is quite reasonable.

The alternative link that I provided (also on Amazon) was to a slightly upgraded wireless router / access point that will meet your current needs and has a little more capability for future growth beyond your current needs.....and it is close enough to your initial price to make it worthwhile.

I personally would go for the increased capability....but that's up to you.

Hope this helps.

...OK, going back to see your original response, I think I see your question....

The additional features listed are more background noise than a reason to purchase.....what I was looking at as increased capability is the range and speed - the other stuff is just nice stuff that comes along with the package. FWIW, not all WiFi routers / access points come with VPN capability....and that's not something that you might need specifically as there are other ways to VPN besides at the router.

OK, now that I know the better one includes more speed and range, that makes more sense to me. I don't need the other stuff. Thanks for helping me make my decision. I will definitely get the little more pricey one.

Ok, night night. Maybe if it's all encompassing, I won't have anymore questions after that. Yeah, right. A person can dream.

For sure!

And that's despite the fact that after all we've gone through the answer has turned out to be precisely what I thought it would be at the outset, i.e. there's absolutely nothing wrong with Rita's MBP or its OS.

On the other hand, though, it has been quite a troubleshooting exercise, and we've at least determined that Macintosh HD needed to be repaired and have taken care of it, and we've also determined that Rita's external hasn't got any bad blocks, so she's set to upgrade to...something.

Rita, you had another post dropped before I had a chance to listen, but every update has its critics. Based on the experience here at FTM, Catalina has been one of the easiest and cleanest upgrades in MacOS history. Even Artie only waited a few days before installing and he used to wait for the first or second update before upgrading. 😉 The 32/64 bit change did break some no longer supported applications, but Apple had been warning users about that for at least two years via announcements and pop-up warnings in Mojave. Developers were notified that the 32 bit APIs would be dropped at least three years in advance. Apps need to be kept up to date too. Some of the security changes broke hacks used by a very few users as well as significantly hardening Catalina against malware. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

COMMENT: The fact High Sierra can read APFS is of no consequence because it can neither format a drive APFS or install on a drive formatted APFS. The ability to read APFS was apparently included so developers could begin experimenting with it but it was not useful and almost never used. So don't include High Sierra's ability to read APFS in making your OS decision.

Actually, I looked out my window, and then at wunderground.com, and I realized that yesterday was the first Coney Island Boardwalk day of the season, and then I found out that Angel, my beer guy who generally has only Coors Light, which I find undrinkable, also has vodka & OJ, and the rest is unfortunate history. Alcohol and bright sunshine have always done me in. But it WAS worth it!

1. Now that Macintosh HD has been repaired from Recovery and we've determined that your external hasn't got any bad blocks you're ready to proceed.

2. I'd delete all extraneous partitions from your internal and leave only Macintosh HD, i.e. "Sierra." Caveat: If you decide you'd like to maintain an onboard clone you'll need a second partition, which will really only be feasible with a second APFS container.

3. I"d wipe your external, reformat it HFS+, and partition it with five x 100 GB partitions and one x 500 GB partition. APFS is and will remain meaningless on that drive, because you've got only 44 GB of OS and data combined, and 1,000 GB of space, i.e. you'll never run out of space unless your computing habits change VERY DRASTICALLY. The five x 100s will give you ample space for backups of Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave, Catalina, and whatever comes next, with the 500 GB partition leaving you room for whatever unanticipated extreme need may arise.

4. As far as cleaning house goes, I suggest that you do it before upgrading so you won't have to clean both "XYZ" and Sierra on your external afterwards.

5. Next, I'd clone your house-cleaned Macintosh HD to your external...which partition isn't particularly consequential.

6. Now, choose your poison, i.e. High Sierra, Mojave, or Catalina, and d/l it while booted into Macintosh HD on your INTERNAL drive. The installer will go to /Apps.

7. Launch and run the installer. It will overwrite Sierra to "XYZ" but leave ALL your apps and data intact. The same scenario applies to running ANY upgrade over ANY previous version (except for the Catalina possibility of a folder on your desktop mentioned by joemike, and like him I've never found anything in one of them that meant anything to me or affected my computing).

8. If you choose to upgrade via a "clean install," you can run Migration Assistant to import your apps, data, and settings from any other volume.

9. 32 v 64 bit apps: Even if you upgrade to Catalina, don't give them a second thought UNLESS, like some FTM posters, you're running one or more apps that you absolutely can't live without or are too expensive to update/grade, Adobe CS being a prime example.Yeah, it would be nice to be able to maintain all your inconsequential but beloved apps, but the cost of being unable to upgrade makes it a losing option.(I lost a couple myself, but nonetheless, I've never looked back.)

10. Learning curve #1: I upgraded from Snow Leopard to El Capitan, a jump of four OSs, and didn't run into any problems. The first thing I always do after any upgrade is go through System Prefs to see what Apple has jackassed around from version to version, and I let features resolve themselves. I don't recall ever losing any important ones; my real problem has always been uncovering the new ones.

11. Learning curve #2: I don't remember in which OS versions or order they phase in, but you WILL run into some new security features as you meander along the upgrade trail, but in each instance they're presented in the form of (generally ) intuitive pop-ups accompanied by expert interpretation here at FTM.

12. As has been previously mentioned, Mojave will give you an HFS+/APFS option (Take APFS!), and Catalina will auto-upgrade to APFS, but all that is so far under the hood that you needn't worry about it. (It's pertinent to me because I"ve always been a big-time partitioner, and to joemike because with APFS he's become one.)

Ironically, the biggest learning curve item hasn't been mentioned yet... Safari 12 will "kill" ALL your extensions and necessitate their being replaced with apps, either from the App Store or freestanding, that may or may not replace your lost functionality. You're going to be on your own in that respect, although if you tell us which ones you're running we may be able to help.

If you upgrade only to High Sierra, though, there's a saver: The d/l to which I linked you installs Safari 11 and perpetuates your extensions, but (CAVEAT) if you allow Software Update to do its thing it will update Safari to v 13 and undo the saver.

Well, that's my take on things after taking into account all I know of your computing habits, all the excellent info provided by the other posters to this thread, joemike in particular, and all I know and can think of.

I think, read hope, I've touched all bases without getting too technical.

Not quite, I am still an anti-partitioner! 🙅‍♂️ I like and use APFS volumes 👌 but they shouldn't be equated to a Partition. A Partition is a fixed allocation of hardware disk space while a Volume is a virtual data structure that files can be assigned to and those files can be anywhere on the drive. APFS Volumes neatly avoid all of the constraints and restrictions that I objected to in Partitions.

Other than that, I agree with everything Artie said.

Thanks for your vote of confidence.

Now let's see if I've "dumbed it down" enough for Rita.

My mistake. I knew you were big-time on volumes, but I thought containers/partitions entered into your scheme too.

As I've said, I've got two containers on my internal so I can maintain an onboard clone that's separate and distinct from my boot volume, because, frankly, it's just plain too much trouble to dig out my external and hook it up and do the CCC job every day. And chances are that that's at least part of the reason Rita's clone is way behind the times.

Actually, I looked out my window, and then at wunderground.com, and I realized that yesterday was the first Coney Island Boardwalk day of the season, and then I found out that Angel, my beer guy who generally has only Coors Light, which I find undrinkable, also has vodka & OJ, and the rest is unfortunate history. Alcohol and bright sunshine have always done me in. But it WAS worth it!

LOLOLOLOLOL! That made my day, and apparently your's too.

1. Now that Macintosh HD has been repaired from Recovery and we've determined that your external hasn't got any bad blocks you're ready to proceed.

I didn't realize my external had no bad blocks as Mavericks is gone (which is fine).


2. I'd delete all extraneous partitions from your internal and leave only Macintosh HD, i.e. "Sierra." Caveat: If you decide you'd like to maintain an onboard clone you'll need a second partition, which will really only be feasible with a second APFS container.

I don't understand the reason for an onboard clone (and I don't know how to do that) unless it's just to keep Sierra before upgrading. I use an ext HD to clone my OS incase my Mac giv[b]es me problems.[/b]
Pls forgive the color/bold boo boos. Not sure why that happens only sometimes!

3. I"d wipe your external, reformat it HFS+, and partition it with five x 100 GB partitions and one x 500 GB partition. APFS is and will remain meaningless on that drive, because you've got only 44 GB of OS and data combined, and 1,000 GB of space, i.e. you'll never run out of space unless your computing habits change VERY DRASTICALLY. The five x 100s will give you ample space for backups of Sierra, High Sierra, Mojave, Catalina, and whatever comes next, with the 500 GB partition leaving you room for whatever unanticipated extreme need may arise.

Got it!


4. As far as cleaning house goes, I suggest that you do it before upgrading so you won't have to clean both "XYZ" and Sierra on your external afterwards.

[color:#FF0000]OK.[/color]

5. Next, I'd clone your house-cleaned Macintosh HD to your external...which partition isn't particularly consequential.

Not sure exactly what you mean by cloning my HD rather than just Sierra, et al.

6. Now, choose your poison, i.e. High Sierra, Mojave, or Catalina, and d/l it while booted into Macintosh HD on your INTERNAL drive. The installer will go to /Apps.

OK.

7. Launch and run the installer. It will overwrite Sierra to "XYZ" but leave ALL your apps and data intact. The same scenario applies to running ANY upgrade over ANY previous version (except for the Catalina possibility of a folder on your desktop mentioned by joemike, and like him I've never found anything in one of them that meant anything to me or affected my computing).

OK.

8. If you choose to upgrade via a "clean install," you can run Migration Assistant to import your apps, data, and settings from any other volume.

I probably won't run a clean one because I don't want the trouble to migrating what would naturally come along with the upgrade.

9. 32 v 64 bit apps: Even if you upgrade to Catalina, don't give them a second thought UNLESS, like some FTM posters, you're running one or more apps that you absolutely can't live without or are too expensive to update/grade, Adobe CS being a prime example.Yeah, it would be nice to be able to maintain all your inconsequential but beloved apps, but the cost of being unable to upgrade makes it a losing option.(I lost a couple myself, but nonetheless, I've never looked back.)

Mostly the apps that are important to me are MalwareBytes and some Ad Blocking software. I do use an RSS feed called Etrefeed which I almost didn't get with my Sierra upgrade. It isn't being updated anymore, so I may lose it. I like it more than some others I have tried. I will hate to not have that. Oh well.

10. Learning curve #1: I upgraded from Snow Leopard to El Capitan, a jump of four OSs, and didn't run into any problems. The first thing I always do after any upgrade is go through System Prefs to see what Apple has jackassed around from version to version, and I let features resolve themselves. I don't recall ever losing any important ones; my real problem has always been uncovering the new ones.

11. Learning curve #2: I don't remember in which OS versions or order they phase in, but you WILL run into some new security features as you meander along the upgrade trail, but in each instance they're presented in the form of (generally ) intuitive pop-ups accompanied by expert interpretation here at FTM.

OK. I am wondering with all the security upgrades, when I may no longer need MalwareBytes. Or maybe I will until I upgrade to Catalina.ll.

12. As has been previously mentioned, Mojave will give you an HFS+/APFS option (Take APFS!), and Catalina will auto-upgrade to APFS, but all that is so far under the hood that you needn't worry about it. (It's pertinent to me because I"ve always been a big-time partitioner, and to joemike because with APFS he's become one.)

Ironically, the biggest learning curve item hasn't been mentioned yet... Safari 12 will "kill" ALL your extensions and necessitate their being replaced with apps, either from the App Store or freestanding, that may or may not replace your lost functionality. You're going to be on your own in that respect, although if you tell us which ones you're running we may be able to help.

OK. Like I said, Ad Blocking apps are my main concern. I can always re-downlaod those. I am keeping a list of what I may lose.

If you upgrade only to High Sierra, though, there's a saver: The d/l to which I linked you installs Safari 11 and perpetuates your extensions, but (CAVEAT) if you allow Software Update to do its thing it will update Safari to v 13 and undo the saver.

Good to know. I might have freaked!

Well, that's my take on things after taking into account all I know of your computing habits, all the excellent info provided by the other posters to this thread, joemike in particular, and all I know and can think of.

I think, read hope, I've touched all bases without getting too technical. [/quote]

You did, and I understood most of it (after a second read). You can see my misunderstandings above. Thanks so much for your time, Artie, with entertainment thrown in.

Alrighty, then!!

Containers, Volume Groups, and Volumes are all part of APFS's hierarchy of virtual structures and are free to expand or shrink to fill the immediate data storage needs. None of them are anchored to a specific physical location on the drive and by default each of them has access to the entire capacity of the drive (or partition) they are mounted on, unless they are specifically created with limits.

I know about APFS containers and volumes, and actually you misspoke in this particular instance, because a container's size is fixed, same as that of an HFS+ partition; it's only volumes that may expand and contract as needed.

I was thinking that you made use of both multiple containers and multiple volumes in your scheme of things, but I've now looked back and realized that you said you were still anti-partition and I forgot.

You are correct, a Containers size is fixed by the size of the drive or drive partition, it is an intermediate virtualization layer between the hardware and the volume or volume group.

1. Now that Macintosh HD has been repaired from Recovery and we've determined that your external hasn't got any bad blocks you're ready to proceed.

I didn't realize my external had no bad blocks as Mavericks is gone (which is fine).

Oops! I don't know if I ever explained that the 10 hour terminal command you ran was a check for bad blocks (on your ENTIRE external HDD) which may have been causing the prohibited sign you got when you tried to boot into Mavericks. It may have been a function of Mavericks itself, but we'll never know.

2. I'd delete all extraneous partitions from your internal and leave only Macintosh HD, i.e. "Sierra." Caveat: If you decide you'd like to maintain an onboard clone you'll need a second partition, which will really only be feasible with a second APFS container.

I don't understand the reason for an onboard clone (and I don't know how to do that) unless it's just to keep Sierra before upgrading. I use an ext HD to clone my OS incase my Mac gives me problems.

I maintain an onboard clone because I want a current clone without having to hook up my external every day to do it the correct way. You could do the same, but I"m afraid that your using the space on your small SSD would degrade the performance of your actual OS.

5. Next, I'd clone your house-cleaned Macintosh HD to your external...which partition isn't particularly consequential.

Not sure exactly what you mean by cloning my HD rather than just Sierra, et al.

"Macintosh HD" is the name of your SSD on which Sierra is the OS. If you clone MHD you clone Sierra.

8. If you choose to upgrade via a "clean install," you can run Migration Assistant to import your apps, data, and settings from any other volume.

I probably won't run a clean one because I don't want the trouble to migrating what would naturally come along with the upgrade.

A clean install would be appropriate if MHD/Sierra is corrupted, which actually may have been the case before you booted into Recovery and ran "Repair Disk" on it, but now should be moot.

11. Learning curve #2: I don't remember in which OS versions or order they phase in, but you WILL run into some new security features as you meander along the upgrade trail, but in each instance they're presented in the form of (generally tongue ) intuitive pop-ups accompanied by expert interpretation here at FTM. wink

OK. I am wondering with all the security upgrades, when I may no longer need MalwareBytes. Or maybe I will until I upgrade to Catalina.ll.

I doubt that a time when you no longer need MalwareBytes will ever come.

Ironically, the biggest learning curve item hasn't been mentioned yet... Safari 12 will "kill" ALL your extensions and necessitate their being replaced with apps, either from the App Store or freestanding, that may or may not replace your lost functionality. You're going to be on your own in that respect, although if you tell us which ones you're running we may be able to help.

OK. Like I said, Ad Blocking apps are my main concern. I can always re-downlaod those. I am keeping a list of what I may lose.

You may have missed the point on that one. Once you get to Safari 12, ALL your extensions, content blockers etc., will become dead issues. macOS will automatically uninstall them, and you'll have to search for apps to replace them. Some of your extensions may have already been released as apps, but their functionality may have changed with the change, and you may be back to square one as respects them.

I think that covers everything in your last post that required clarification.

Thanks so much for your time, Artie, with entertainment thrown in.

Always happy to help, Rita.

I maintain an onboard clone because I want a current clone without having to hook up my external every day to do it the correct way. You could do the same, but I"m afraid that your using the space on your small SSD would degrade the performance of your actual OS.
[color:#FF0000]
[color:#33FF33]Good to know. It helps make my decision.[/color][/color]


Not sure exactly what you mean by cloning my HD rather than just Sierra, et al.

"Macintosh HD" is the name of your SSD on which Sierra is the OS. If you clone MHD you clone Sierra.

[color:#FF0000]OK, I get it. But why would I want to clone my whole, empty hard drive to an ext. drive? Wouldn't I just want to clone my OS's to the ext. drive? What am I missing (besides a few technical brain cells)?
[/color]

Ironically, the biggest learning curve item hasn't been mentioned yet... Safari 12 will "kill" ALL your extensions and necessitate their being replaced with apps, either from the App Store or freestanding, that may or may not replace your lost functionality. You're going to be on your own in that respect, although if you tell us which ones you're running we may be able to help.

OK. Like I said, Ad Blocking apps are my main concern. I can always re-downlaod those. I am keeping a list of what I may lose.

You may have missed the point on that one. Once you get to Safari 12, ALL your extensions, content blockers etc., will become dead issues. macOS will automatically uninstall them, and you'll have to search for apps to replace them. Some of your extensions may have already been released as apps, but their functionality may have changed with the change, and you may be back to square one as respects them.

[color:#FF0000]I know. That's why I said I would just re download them. Again, what point did I miss??? I think all of my extensions are apps, no? I use the words interchangeably. Maybe that's wrong.[/color]

Glad you're always happy to help!

We're gonna run out of colors.

Not sure exactly what you mean by cloning my HD rather than just Sierra, et al.

"Macintosh HD" is the name of your SSD on which Sierra is the OS. If you clone MHD you clone Sierra.

OK, I get it. But why would I want to clone my whole, empty hard drive to an ext. drive? Wouldn't I just want to clone my OS's to the ext. drive? What am I missing (besides a few technical brain cells)?

You select an entire volume, Macintosh HD in your case, as your source in SuperDuper!, but it clones only the info in that volume, so when you clone MHD you're cloning only Sierra. If you have two or more volumes you can clone each one individually.


You may have missed the point on that one. Once you get to Safari 12, ALL your extensions, content blockers etc., will become dead issues. macOS will automatically uninstall them, and you'll have to search for apps to replace them. Some of your extensions may have already been released as apps, but their functionality may have changed with the change, and you may be back to square one as respects them.

I know. That's why I said I would just re download them. Again, what point did I miss??? I think all of my extensions are apps, no? I use the words interchangeably. Maybe that's wrong.

The words aren't interchangeable. The extensions you've got now are not apps (.ext, I think, suffixes), but beginning with Safari 12, even though the pref pane is still called "Extensions," your old extensions will no longer work, and you'll have to download apps (with .app suffixes) to replace them.

OK. I will download the apps. I didn't know the difference. Thanks.

No need to even think about the apps until Safari 12 tells you that your extensions are dead issues.

Until that happens, the ones you're running now will work as expected.

Right. Thank you.