I'm pretty sure this issue has been discussed before, but I'd like to know if anything 'new' has shown up.

I can gain access to broadband internet but not with my iMac. (For example, right now I'm using Internet Explorer on a PC with broadband connection.)
Is there any way I can download, say, Mac OS X El Capitan to a USB stick for installation on my iMac (in the same way as updates are accomplished for the various OSs)?
Or is it still the case that I'm SOL?

I can't even find a standalone Mac OS X.

A DuckDuckGo search for "MacOS 10.11 download" turned up a large number of hits including this one from Apple. Several of which should do the trick for you.

The Apple article indicates that I would have to connect to the Mac App Store to download the installer directly and then continue to have Internet access to install El Capitan. So such would disallow my acquiring a free-standing El Capitan from there.
I've been trying to access https://itunes.apple.com/app/os-x-el-capitan/id1147835434?mt=12 for the past 10 minutes, to no avail. So that all seems to be a dead end.

ADDENDUM — A couple queries:

I just tried conducting my own search for "MacOS 10.11 download" via DuckDuckGo.
The only apparently legitimate possibility is: OS X 10 11 - Free downloads and reviews - CNET Download.com at download.cnet.com/s/os-x-10-11/ .
Is this a reasonable/reliable source?

Should I be able to gain access to El Capitan and try to install same over my current Lion, will all my additions to Lion including third-party apps over the years be retained, as well as all my files?

I just tried the URL and to my surprise it automatically opened the App Store app to attempt the download, so it would not be possible to use that link on a Windows computer and even if you tried it on your Mac the download could take over 100 hours to complete over a 64Kb dialup connection.

As to the CNET download site I am not aware of any recent complaints, but I have no personal experience with them in years.

An upgrade installation of a later OS version over a previous one SHOULD retain all of your settings, data, and third party applications. A "clean" However as with any upgrade or update there are caveats:

• What SHOULD happen and what DOES happen are sometimes two different things so before upgrading or updating the OS wise users will always make a fresh clone of their system and test it to be sure it works correctly before making the upgrade or update.
• Some applications may have to be updated or replaced for compatabiity with the upgraded OS and I don't know oaf any reliable compatability lists.
• It is essential that all "disk repair" utilities such as Diskwarrior, Drive Genius, and Techtool Pro and cleanup utilities such as OnyX, Cocktail, TinkerTool, etc be updated to the specific version compatible with the version of MacOS being installed.

I know nothing about clones or how to make such, much less test such. So that's a non-starter.
Why wouldn't my TM backup be adequate? Or would it?

As for the CNET site's reliability and safety, I guess I'll just have to see what others have to say before checking it out.

Any idea just how large the Mac OS X 10.11 is (so that I might have a properly sized USB stick to download to)?

Yes that would be adequate.


Too many ads and fake download buttons, not enough good reviews, lots of attention for mediocre software -- but I haven’t seen signs of unreliability. I couldn’t find a real download link there though: the download button redirected me to Apple’s site.


My copy of 10.11.6 is 6,221,633,348 bytes, the largest of the system installers. Checksums for ‘InstallESD.dmg’ payload inside the package: MD5: 06f6e4a7b1996c542cbda28eb5f7a8f2 SHA-1: 7739e3f62080000da5d28efa689c53976112a262 SHA-256: 0b8156957236865e170bc7784bf067ba8b5b231ad8ce45790865e16c9c653615

I downloaded the MacOS 10.13.2 combo installer this morning and the .dmg came in at 3.02GB so I would think an 8GB memory stick/thumb drive would be more than adequate.

So that means I'm pretty much back to square one. To upgrade I'm going to have to go to the Mac App Store which means having broadband connection.

On the off-chance that I'm able to find access to such, as I recall, such a download of an installer followed by online installation is fraught with problems, not the least of which is the deletion of the copy of the OS once installed. How might one circumvent this so that one retains the full OS in the event of an event?

What's the best way of protecting the new OS via Time Machine, so that Recovery HD can be run without going online? And by that I mean something I can understand and implement (which means nothing to do with Terminal, which I don't understand and which scares me).
[I have absolutely no access to an Apple store or anything approximating one which doesn't entail driving 8-10 hours to another province.]

And what do I do with all the backups on TM created from the previous OS? Or is it legitimate just to keep them there?

The more I think about all of this, the more uncomfortable I get with even thinking about upgrading — which I now think will nuke everything I've put into my machine over the past 6 years.

The only things I use my machine for is to access internet for email (writing and storing), carry out a few business transactions on a regular basis, read newspapers, review FTM, and such. I don't use or have use for 95% of what my machine has installed and is capable of. (I just noticed that there's actually an App Store app installed ... whatever that might do.) {sigh}

At this point I pretty much feel doomed. The whole reason I got into Macs from the git-go was because the GUI. I could rarely figure out how to get past the C-prompt on a PC, despite my working in Fortran II in the '60s and running batches on mainframes in the '70s.

And to think that back in the '90s and '00s I convinced my sister to get a Mac and get online and then used to troubleshoot her computer and her computer behavior. Since then she's blown right on by me and 'dances the light fantastic' on the internet with her latest iMac, iPhone, and other devices. (And we're talking about folk in our 70s.) Now, every time I want to do something like take a screenshot or some other trivial procedure I have to consult my 900-page, 1.4-kg/4-lb Missing Manual! {sigh} {sigh}

macOS Recovery requires an Internet connection.

You're confusing d/l'ing an installer with an Internet recovery.

Once you d/l the installer, the installation process doesn't require being on line; an Internet connection is required for installation ONLY if you're doing a recovery.

I'm not sure from where you got that "fraught with problems", but

1. your Time Machine backup is your saver in the event something goes wrong, and
2. macOS Recovery may (depending upon your circumstances) offer additional options.

joemike's "An upgrade installation of a later OS version over a previous one SHOULD retain all of your settings, data, and third party applications." is painfully accurate. "Painfully", because "SHOULD" is prudently and necessarily cautionary...and moot as long as you're backed up...as you are.


It connects you to the App Store, from where you could d/l El Cap if you had an adequate Internet connection.

I don't understand most of that (but thanks for the info).

Back in 2013 I successfully restored my OS and files to a new hard drive from Time Machine backup without having to go online.
[I was under the (apparently mistaken) impression that restoring the OS from TM would also include the (invisible) Recovery HD, since that was part of my original installation and ostensibly would have been backed up as part of my disk. I was able to use my Recovery Disk Assistant thumb drive to gain access to Recovery HD (since that's all the RDA contains). At least the RDA = Recovery HD is safely stored on the thumb drive – and works as nicely as though it were ensconced on a hard drive partition. It just would have been nice to have it on the hard drive too.]

Boiling it down, then,

• you only need a high-speed Internet connection to d/l the installer (or to use macOS Recovery in the event of a catastrophe),
• upgrading your current OS SHOULD perpetuate all changes you've made on your new iMac since you bought it, and
• your Time Machine backup is the answer to your other questions (although specifics are beyond my experience).

Regarding your 2013 experience, Carbon Copy Cloner is the only means of which I'm aware to back up a Recovery drive (which is not part of your original installation other than in the sense that "it came along for the ride").

Merci, artie, for all the input.

My frustrated quandary may have reached a resolution: a colleague advises that he can provide me with a USB stick containing the whole megillah of El Capitan.

The only thing I will have to do post-installation is to separately download and install all the system and security updates associated with same. With regard to that, can anyone provide a list of the various updates I should install? And is there anything I should look out for? (Apple's El Capitan info is a tad confusing when I look at it.)

Sounds good!

One you've upgraded to El Cap, all you've got to do is visit /Applications/App Store or  > App Store... and click on "Updates", and Apple will tell all.

Clarifying my post #47394...


macOS Recovery requires an Internet connection, except, of course, for recovery from a local source.

That's not always the case.

I've done it several times before but I'm not confident which route I took at the time. I believe it was by creating a "normal" partition and restoring the recovery EFI image itself to the partition. This basically created what looked like install media rather than a recovery partition or installer app, and it was content to run without an internet connection.

I would also suggest that people go to the app store and download the installer from there rather than doing a recovery by other methods, including internet recovery. Reason is, the installer the app store serves up is universal, and will run on practically any compatible mac made before that day. The recovery partitions on drives tend to be machine specific, or at least limited to a subnet of macs and specifically not to macs made after that one. So the one that goes on my recovery service drive is always downloaded from the App Store. (and periodically needs to be replaced with a newer download, to maintain compatibility with newer macs) For example, the OS that's installed by the recovery partition on your 2015 iMac may only support iMacs, and then only ones made on or before Dec 2015. Trying to boot the OS after installation on another model may get you a panic. (sometimes you can 'fix' the installation by running the latest combo updater, but that doesn't always work)

Let me reiterate. Updating the OS seldom deletes or damages your data, but until someone is able to repeal Murphey's Law there is a minute but finite chance of data loss. The fact you have your RDA and a current Time Machine backup is arguably the best protection you can have.

1. Reinstalling the OS is the ONLY way to restore the Recovery Drive to your HD and restoring the Recovery Drive. I cannot personally verify this but that may require installation on a clean HD(?)
2. Given you have a Time Machine backup even that should not cause you to lose any data — it will just take a few hours longer to complete the restore.
   • NOTE: This requires installation of the OS not restoring the OS from the Time Machine backup.
3. Unless you can find a disk copy of the El Capitan installer you will have to have broadband internet access to install or reinstall your OS.

Don't underestimate yourself. You already went through most of this back in 2013.

There are several hits with google for steps on how to do this, here's the first:
http://osxdaily.com/2016/07/03/recreate-recovery-partition-mac/

I had to do this from time to time at my previous job when I was cloning data from a full or failing hard drive to another one. After doing the clone, we started noticing the new drives didn't have a recovery partition on them. Of course not, I didn't copy that... ok then... and created my own solution using bits and pieces of information available at the time. (years ago, maybe from here? http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20120316132618149)

The key is to use a small utility that for some reason exists only on recovery disks/partitions/apps called "DMTEST"

You also need to have an actual recovery disk or recovery partition of course, or a DMG copy of something like that, for it to create from.

If he downloads a fresh copy, it will be the latest iteration: 10.11.6, but without the later security updates.
If he copies an older installer earlier than 10.11.6, you’ll need the 10.11.6 Combo Update (1.5 GB) that'll work on any version 10.11.x. You can (have him) download it manually with any browser or use the App Store app.
I believe the security updates include all previous security updates (cumulative), so you’ll only need one: Security Update 2017-005 El Capitan (630.4MB). You can (have him) download it manually with any browser or use the App Store app.

In addition to what you've mentioned, there will definitely be an available iTunes update, an iPhoto update, I think, possibly an iWork (if it still goes by that name) update or two, and I can't guess what else.

grelber's best bet will be to rely on the App Store for complete guidance, and if it's not too unwieldy, he can simply click to install them all and walk away for a few hours.

Good point about the Combo, though, because the App Store will offer him only the 10.11.6 Delta if he has 10.11.5.


As far as I've ever been able to tell, Combo updaters aren't available from the App Store; they must be d/l'ed from Apple's update website.

I don't think we're on the same track; by macOS Recovery I mean the three options under Start up from macOS Recovery > 1 in How to reinstall macOS.


That's only possible up to Yosemite, which is the last version of Apple's OS that you can RE-download from the App Store, which makes archiving Installer.app for succeeding versions against possible future need a good idea.

At first I think I misunderstood what you said, as later versions can be re-downloaded (re-directed through the App Store app) without much fuss: OS X El Capitan (10.11.6), macOS Sierra (10.12.6), macOS High Sierra (10.13.2).
But now I think I get that OS X Yosemite (10.10.5) direct link gives a “not available” message, but you can find it and re-downoad it via the Purchased tab in the App Store app (if you downloaded it before with that Apple ID account). Same for older OS X versions, all the way back to Mac OS X Lion (10.7).

That's correct, but you didn't misunderstand, rather I misspoke; I wasn't aware that post-Yosemite OS's were available from Apple...only that they no longer appeared in your "Purchased" tab as did earlier versions.

Thanks for the links.

While preparing for my 'transition' to El Capitan by downloading (as .dmg and .zip files) appropriate versions of various software such as Firefox, Thunderbird, TinkerTool, etc, I discovered that no longer can one acquire so-called manual downloads from Apple's website — such as precisely the items potentially required: 10.11.6 Combo Update and Security Update 2017-005 — which now requires direct access to the App Store, thus complicating the whole thing (given my internet access). Merde! Scheiße! ¡Mierda! Говно!
Life was so much easier before.

Urquhart's post #47409 includes links to both of those updates directly from Apple...no App Store. (I don't think Combos have ever been available from the App Store...only Deltas.)

Do you know for a fact that your colleague isn't giving you 10.11.6? If not, don't worry about the Combo until you find out.

Thinking back to my 64k days during which I endured several 1 GB d/l's from Apple, the security update (630 MB) and the Combo (1.5 GB) would be PIAs, but not major problems, for you to d/l yourself.

Indeed, those items are available for manual download as given by Urquhart — for which many thanks — I just didn't check that before heading to Apple's website, where everything directs to the App Store and no option is given for manual download of updates or even direction as to where such might be found. So, unless one knows about DL1885 and DL1945, it's a closely guarded 'secret'.

Did you look at Apple - Support - Downloads? If not, you ought to bookmark it for future reference.

I have indeed and have had it bookmarked for years.
Now, however, when I access it, everything (re)directs to the App Store. (Ergo, my earlier plaint.)

Your search term probably wasn't specific enough. (Or even this.)

A search for just "El Capitan" also works, but you've got to dig a bit to find the security update.

More: Likewise

Anything anyone can add to the previous discussion — to allay my trepidation and paranoia — would be gratefully received in anticipation of my upgrading to El Capitan tomorrow.

From all I've been given to understand, the process should go rather fluidly:
• Open the .dmg file in Applications and then, if necessary, run the Combo Update and Security Update.
• Update to current versions all third-party OS tools (such as Onyx and TinkerTool), as well as Firefox and Thunderbird.
• Pray that everything goes according to Hoyle (who, admittedly, never had a clue about the internet, but who is still the patron saint of the rule book).

Anything else?

Don't forget to check in at the App Store; there will definitely be an available iTunes update...possibly updates to other Apple apps as well.

Is there some reason to updating iTunes? I'm using iTunes 10.7 and am perfectly satisfied with that. I rarely download anything from online, only CD content if the spirit moves me.
Even in Lion I haven't updated any apps that came with the OS/iMac (mid-2011) since I don't use any of them, even the games.

Given your situation, there's no particular reason of which I'm aware, but you ought to check out the App Store nonetheless, just to see what you're offerred.

Small nuance: “Install OS X El Capitan” is not a .dmg, but an application. (A download from the Mac App Store would place it in /Applications, so I suggest moving it to /Applications before launching it. It might be that some components rely on that location.) The updates can be run from their mounted .dmg volumes.

After installation, you may notice that:
- Old applications that can no longer run on the current OS, if so detected, may have a light-colored no access symbol over the icon.
- Some incompatible software that might cause problems (not just apps) may get moved to a folder “Disabled Software” or “Incompatible Software” at the root of the boot drive.
- If you have any third party binaries (command line tools for use with e.g. Terminal), and they no longer follow OS protocol (compatibility or security), then those got moved to a special folder (System Integrity Protection quarantine folder) as well.
It is up to the user to remove or update those.

If you don't use the app there is no point in updating it. The apps bundled with MacOS will be routinely upgraded or updated as part of the OS and that is necessary because some of their code is often used in other places throughout the OS.

You have indicated you use iTunes and if you use it at all it is wise to keep it updated and current if for no other reason than there may be security issues involved. The same is particularly true of Safari. Not only is Webkit, which undergirds Safari, used in MacOS itself, it is also used in many applications including Mail, and there are significant security enhancements in each release.

If you NEVER use the iWork apps (Pages, Numbers, Keynote, iMovie, Garage Band) they can safely be removed from your Mac altogether and recover the storage space for what you do use.

Your dialup connection makes the window of opportunity for exploits to get into your system, but it in no way makes you immune. The best protection against malware is keeping the OS and applications scrupulously up to date.

That may be just my misunderstanding of what I'm getting. I was told that once I transfer whatever-it-is, I should put it into my Applications folder and run it. I'll clarify that with the donor tomorrow.

Good points.

I have no idea what iWork apps (Pages, Numbers, Keynote) might be.

Just to give you an idea of how much I don't use, following is a list of apps that arrived with my iMac and Mac OS X Lion which I've never opened, much less used, and other than via their names have no idea what they do or what they're for:
Address Book, Automator, FaceTime, Font Book, GarageBand, iCal, iChat, Image Capture, iMovie, iPhoto, Mail, Stickies, and all but 3 of the 23 "utilities".

I did add Adobe Photoshop CS5 (but haven't used it for several years) and Microsoft Office 2011 (primarily for Word, which I use all the time; I haven't used PowerPoint or Excel except to read products of others).

As I said, my needs and wants are minimal.

Vis-à-vis Time Machine: I've been told to disconnect my TM hard drive prior to upgrading, then once everything has been installed and tweaked to reattach the hard drive and back up the changes.

Any specific recommendations in this regard?

And will Recovery HD be functional (and backed-up) by so doing?

Recovery HD isn't a part of OS X, rather it's a completely separate animal and will NOT, therefore, be backed up by Time Machine, nor will TM's running or not running during its installation have any effect on it...SHOULDN'T under expected circumstances, anyhow.

You can see in this Terminal excerpt that Recovery HD is a volume unto itself.


I'm not aware of any means to back up a Recovery HD other than with Carbon Copy Cloner.

Any other pertinent TM input will have to come from elsewhere.

If it's not part of the OS, then how can the iMac access it?! ⌘-R has to be part of the OS. Clearly I'm missing something — maybe even my mind.

Surely NOT your mind!

It can be accessed because it's a bootable volume that resides on the iMac's drive.

My Terminal excerpt shows that I've got 4 separate volumes - HD2, HDx, HDz, and Recovery HD - all of which are completely independent of my OS (on volume HD), and the same way I can boot into volume HDx (a bootable clone of HD...the others are either data or empty), I can boot into volume Recovery HD.

There is a very low level system in your Imac that is responsible for identifying the boot OS and keystroke commands such as Command+R and Option which allows the user to change the desired boot volume. Only when the boot volume is identified does this same low level loader begin to inmate the boot sequence to load the operating systemt.

The Recovery drive is no more or less you than another bootable partition on the drive with its own VERY small, very limited special purpose OS installation. In function and purpose it is the same as the bootable install CDs of old but far more flexible as it can install the very latest version of the OS and less flexible because it ONLY installs the most recent compatible OS version.

artie & joemikeb: Many thanks for the input.

To me a 'command' is an operation, and 'operation' is part of an 'operating system', which makes the machine function.

I just (still) don't understand the jargon (such as volume, boot volume, partition).

[When the term 'volume' was used way back when (for example, in OS 8) and I wanted to update Netscape, it was stated clearly that it should be installed on a separate 'volume', otherwise bad things would happen. So I could never update the browser for fear of something dire happening. I had to wait until I installed a whole new OS (ie, OS 9). Then the same was true in OS 9 with Mozilla. In Mac OS X all I have to do is trash the outdated version of Firefox, then install the latest version.
I'm really no further along now in terms of understanding what's going on than I was then. My only salvation has been to get the feeling that OS management has advanced to the point that even numskulls such as I can't harm things too badly unless we really try ... which is why I'll never use Terminal.
I guess now that I'm amazed that I was able to restore Lion and all my files via TM back in 2013.]

Believe me you are not alone in understanding or even knowing there are volumes, boot volumes, and partitions and even among those who should know better the terms are too often used incorrectly.

The first thing you must realize is there are LOGICAL constructs such as a VOLUME that are "seen and used" by applications and PHYSICAL devices (Hard Drives, SSDs, CDs, etc. that actually contain or store the data. To simplify the software developers task, the activities at the Physical layer are carefully hidden from what is going on at the Logical level. Because the Logical Volume is often closely linked to a Physical storage media/device there is an unfortunate tendency to equate the two which most people understand but can lead to confusion. NOTE: It is possible to create a Volume inside a file — that is what a .dmg, Sparse Image, or Sparse Disk Bundle is and each of those can mount just as if it were a volume on a physical device.

A BOOT VOLUME is simply a volume containing a bootable copy of an OS. There may be multiple boot volumes on a computer, but there must be at least one so the computer can run.

A PARTITION is a division or subdivision of a physical device. Storage devices can be divided into multiple partitions by a process called partitioning, but to be useful a partition must have an associated VOLUME. (Disk Utility creates the volume automatically when it creates a new partition. Because of this pairing the terms Partition and Volume are often incorrectly used synonymously. Thus leading to more confusion.

You're selling Recovery HD short.


More: As a matter of fact, the ability to install the most recent compatible OS version is apparently new to High Sierra.

Thanks for that; I'm going to memorize it and maybe even remember it when I need it.

I'll question "It is possible to create a Volume inside a file....", though. Didn't you mean "folder"?

More: I've always used "boot volume" to indicate the "bootable volume" into which I boot by default, and I kinda like that usage...or can you suggest a better term?

No I mean file. When an image file "mounts" it is assigned a "mount point" in the system and has its own volume and directory structure. A folder on the other hand is dependent on the volume and file structure of the volume it is on. (In APFS you would not be too far off the mark to think of the drive volume as an image file, but that is a different can of worms I am still trying to get my head around and would rather not open here.)


Your usage I suspect is by far the most common, and there is nothing wrong with it. When I am thinking critically I am inclined to think in terms of "Bootable Volume" and "Current Boot Volume". But that is just me.

By the way Artie, thanks for filling in the key combinations recognized by the Recover Drive. I was writing that on my iPad Pro and couldn't pull up the appropriate Help file.

I've spent most of the day preparing to install El Capitan.
I did a complete TM backup and then a bootable clone (via CCC) to my external HD (also used for TM) which CCC informed me was successful.
When I tried to find the clone, no luck. I have no idea where it might be hiding and how I can access it to test whether or not it's bootable.
When I go to Startup Disk, all that shows up is my main HD and my backup HD with no apparent way to choose/find clone.
Any hints?

Assuming you were using Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper, when you started the application you would have been prompted for a Source and Destination. What volume did you choose as the Destination (note you could have specified an image file as the Destination) Unless you changed the name of the destination volume it would have a name like Main HD Clone.

You cannot create a clone on the drive you are cloning so it would have to be on the backup drive or another patriot/volume on Main HD. If you cloned to an image file it is not bootable and would not show up in Startup Disk.

If, as I'm understanding it, your backup HD has got only your Time Machine backup and your clone...maybe some data, too, on it , selecting your backup HD should get you booted into your clone, because TM backups aren't bootable.

Clarifying, Startup Disk is recognizing your backup HD as bootable only because it's got a bootable volume, i.e. your clone, on it.

artie & joemikeb:

All that's now totally moot.

I couldn't find anything that resembled my 'successful' clone — and CCC is a cool little app which allows for idiots like me to easily clone the HD — on my external HD; nothing which had a name that might indicate that it was something other than my TM backups.

When I tried to use Backup as my startup disk — and indeed assumed that if Backup showed up that such would indicate that identified a bootable volume therein — it refused to boot. So something odd was going on. I quit the process.

When I then rebooted from my main HD, the backup HD was toast. Disk Utility could recognize that it was there but could not mount the volume or repair it.

(Six-plus years is pretty good life for a little portable USB drive [WD My Passport], so I can't really bitch; I only wish it could've waited to crash until after all my planned upgrading and updating. But maybe it's all for the best that I had to start backups from scratch at this point.)

So ... I had to replace the backup drive. And now the oldest backup is today's.

It never rains, but it pours.

I haven't yet made another clone (it takes about an hour), so any suggestions as to how it can be tracked when it lands in my destination HD would be gratefully received.

I'm out of my element dealing with Time Machine, itself, but just thinking, I wonder if your clone needs to be on a separate partition on your backup drive?

So, even without an answer to that question, I'll suggest that you partition your new drive into (at least) two partitions and use one for Time Machine backups and the other for your clone; it should work for you, and it most assuredly won't hurt. (Partition a Drive with OS X El Capitan's Disk Utility)

More: I believe you can partition your drive even after having backed up to it without losing any data, but that'll have to be confirmed by someone else.

Thanks for clarifying.

When you said "file", I thought .rtf, .xls, ad infinitum. I've never seen the word used as in your explanation..."image file", but I guess I get the concept.

RE:

Normally you would never place a clone in the same VOLUME with a Time Machine backup set. Note that I said volume not drive, so another volume (partition) on the same drive could be used but there are factors to consider.

• Recent versions of Disk Utility do support non-destructive partitioning of a drive but I am not sure when that ability was added to Disk Utility
• There is a finite risk of data loss when partitioning a drive that has data on it and it is strongly recommended to back up the drive before partitioning
• Partitioning a Time Machine drive increases the risk of losing files off the back end of th backup data set.
• All the existing data on the drive will be placed in the first partition. and some versions of OS X/MacOS are not bootable unless they are on the first partition of a drive. Unfortunately I don't know which versions those are 🤷‍♂️

As a possible alternative either Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper will clone a drive to a sparse image file/Volume which could be placed on the time Machine drive without partitioning and later removed simply be deleting the file, and although that image can be cloned back to a bootable drive Volume the image file itself is not bootable and cloning back would still require a bootable drive to run the clone utility. ☠️

I am not saying Artie is incorrect or his suggestion is bad, I am just pointing out the potential risks. There are other alternatives that I could suggest, but all of them require broadband connectivity and/or additional hardware that Grelber does not have and so are "off the table".

I mentioned non-destructive partitioning only because I know grelber's initial El Cap(?) Time Machine backup is the only data on his new drive, so even if it goes bad, he won't lose much, but knowing his attitude towards such things, I shouldn't have even mentioned it.


Wow! I haven't heard that caveat since the very early days of OS X, and I wasn't even aware that it was still "live".

I can say, however, that I've booted (at the least) Snowy, Yosemite, El Cap, and Sierra from the third partition of my internal HD/SSD and High Sierra (at the least) from the fourth partition of my external SSD, so I doubt that grelber will have a problem if he puts TM on partition 1 and his clone on partition 2.

The important thing, though, is that the two should, probably even must, be on separate partitions.

After yesterday's annoyances/hassles I am finally running El Capitan 10.11.6. It took 60+ min to install, then ca 1/2 hour to run the Combo Update and Security Update. Now it's time to update all my other bits and pieces which need such.

Awesome that you succeeded. Please keep track of compatibility things you find in the coming days/weeks, to let us know what we didn’t foresee.

👍

Yaaay!

I still strongly suggest that you check in at the App Store to ensure that you DON'T want anything it's offering.

It turns out that the 'failure' of my backup HD was not hardware but software. While Disk Utility couldn't deal with it in the state it was in, by reformatting the HD via a PC running Windows, then reformatting that via the Mac, I got a functional HD back. It now has 3 partitions for various backups, including bootable clones, Recovery HD, and other stuff.
What's kinda cool is that when I attach the HD to my iMac, the 3 partitions show up as separate HDs on the Desktop. No need to go searching for the partition desired.

As for compatibility problems: So far none. All applications brought over from Lion work as before and attached hardware (eg, printer) likewise functions properly.

That's pretty much a non-starter, given the way the App Store functions. It's impossible to download a free-standing app (such as the latest update to Safari 11.0.2). The App Store wants to download to my machine directly — which in the case of the previous example would take a couple weeks.

If I could actually locate the site of downloads (such as Urquhart provided previously) which would have URLs like https://support.apple.com/kb/DL****, life would be good.

Good news! The failure was so coincidental that I was wondering.


As written, that doesn't sound correct.

You need one partition for Time Machine and another for your bootable clone. You don't need a partition for Recovery HD, because when you clone your HD to the external, CCC will ask if you want it to create a Recovery HD, and if you go for it, it will carve a new, invisible partition out of the one on which the clone lives. (You should also have a Recovery HD on your internal as a result of your El Cap installation; I think you can confirm it with an option-boot.)

Your third partition can be used for data storage.

You keep throwing out that "couple of weeks", and it just doesn't compute.

Before there was DSL, we all used 64k modems to d/l ~1 GB OS X Combos: 1,000,000,000/64,000/60/60=4.34 hours, and 4-5 hours is what a d/l always took.

The Safari update isn't near that large, so how do you figure weeks?

Just exaggerating facetiously.


Based on the size of ca 60MB for Safari 9 and using an average of 3 KB/s download/transfer rate, that comes to 60K seconds = 333 min = 5 h 33 min. That's a long time to tie up my phone. (And given previous experience, I suspect even that time allotment would expand for any number of reasons.)

I'm using the resuscitated HD for CCC clones only (and maybe some other sort of data storage, since the free space is there). TM backup is now relegated to the replacement HD I got the minute [another exaggeration] the original tanked.
My computer guru assures me that the 3-way configuration leaves nothing to chance and is the way he's been doing HD-cloning with CCC for years. You are probably also right, but I'm going with his recommendations, if for no other reasons than he was able to resuscitate the backup HD and help me restore my Lion in 2013 when I had to have the iMac's internal HD replaced.

I seem to remember the standard modem speed topping out at 56k. More importantly, that's kilobits, whereas a 1 GB download is gigabytes. My math says 1,000,000,000/7,000/60/60=39.68 hours.

Before there was DSL, OS X Combos were more on the order of 100 MB (the OS X 10.3.5 Combo weighed in at ~88 MB, for instance), which probably explains why your remembered downloads took 4-5 hours.

Just to clarify:
My USRobotics modem is a 56K USB modem (V.92).
This session and most sessions it communicates initially at 44000 to 45333 bps (according to Console).
Getting to this reply page Activity Monitor reported data transfer on the order of 2-3 kilobytes/s, although since accessing this page background transfer is running at 20 to 600 bytes/s.

And still no suggestions as to my queries under the thread in this forum "El Capitan issues"?

Patience, mon ami.....our Netherlands connection appears to have done you a major service in said thread.

Indeed he has, and I'm most appreciative.

True about tying up the phone, which is why, in my 56kbps (Thanks, dk!) modem days, I always d/l'ed either while I was asleep, or in the dead of night when my phone doesn't ring and there's less traffic slowing down the Internet.

But this just occurred to me: I wonder if you're aware that updating from the App Store is NOT a one and done deal.

If you quit the App Store in the middle of a download it will pick up where it left off the next time you launch it, and while I won't suggest an incremental technique for d/l'ing macOS upgrades, it may be a viable, perhaps even more palatable, way for you to acquire smaller, i.e. Safari 11.0.2...maybe even Delta, updates that you may want to install.

Your configuration is better than the one I suggested, because it keeps your backups on separate physical devices that aren't likely to tank simultaneously. (I thought you had only one external drive.)

Since you mentioned it, a note about Recovery HD... CCC lists all your mounted volumes, including connected externals, at the bottom of its sidebar, and selecting a volume shows you if it's got an operating system installed and if it's got an associated Recovery HD; it also allows you to install a Recovery HD for any volume that hasn't got one.

That's probably right in line with the sneakers in my freezer (although the scoop of chocolate ice cream in the heel of each shoe may never be explained).

Thanks for correcting me!

It's somewhat sad that I've noticed an increasing number of "problem child" drives that I've had to resort to alternative methods to format because Disk Utility was being stubborn.

I can count maybe four times in the last year I've had to drop into terminal and (caaaaarefully) use DD to drop some zeros on the starting few MB of a device to get Disk Utility to finally see it as "unformatted" and allow me to (re)format it.