So . . . has anyone downloaded the latest OS X version (10.8)?

If so, what are the pluses and/or minuses? Specifically: Is there anything (good) from LION that will be lost and missed if I "upgrade" to MOUNTAIN LION?

Thanks for your 2-bits worth.

I suppose this review might give you some idea, but there's much more where that came from.

Thanks for the info.

The best I can tell from this review is that MOUNTAIN LION is for those Mac Users who like to use iCloud, Social Networks, and assorted iOS gadgets. For those folks, I suppose 10.8 would be a good thing.

For those of us who do not use iCloud or Facebook, etc., then there doesn't seem to be much point in upgrading . . . especially since the Reviewer in his article did not say that one could "opt out" of iCloud in the way that one can do so in LION.

Does anyone know if linking up with iCloud is mandatory in MOUNTAIN LION, or is there the ability to "opt out?"

Thanks for your input.

I believe so, although I'm not sure there is a simple all-encompassing answer, since iCloud serves both iCloud-enabled apps (free for users) as well as end users who pay for extra space. See the Finder/iCloud section of this review. You might also want to look at Up close with Mountain Lion: iCloud.

I've been looking at Mountain Lion and don't know that I need to upgrade (unless forced to by Apple not supporting Lion stuff). Their policies are becoming disheartening.

This info scared me because it looks like I lose some stuff (RSS feed for one that I use), and I don't understand the info about the recovery HD mentioned, etc. The message that may pop up during the download would probably confuse me. Just looking for a good reason not to download it even though it's free because of my recent purchase of a macbook pro. I think I am too untechy to do this for sure.

Installing Mountain Lion

Also, looked at a lot of feedback on MacUpdate and wasn't encouraged.

What do you think about all this? I'd probably just be bugging you guys eternally with questions. I'm getting tired of that, and I am sure you are, too. I do plan on getting a book of some kind for Lion/Mt. Lion. Which ever I end up with.

Rita

It's free for 30 days. For those like you who purchased your qualifying Mac before the day Mountain Lion was released, the 30-day countdown starts today, July 25th. You have until Aug 24th to get your free upgrade. After that, it'll cost you $20.

We don't know when Apple will stop maintaining Lion, but that day will come. On that day Mountain Lion will still have about a year of life left in it. Think of getting Mountain Lion now as future-proofing, postponing the date you'll next have to deal with upgrading.

I'll think about it, but why does it have to be so complicated to download. Why can't I just download it like anything else. There seems to be a lot of ifs, ands or buts to it.

Rita

Complicated to download?

What is complicated about…

1. opening App Store,
2. clicking on Mountain Lion,
3. clicking on download and entering your App Store password?

The only disconcerting thing to me was not seeing a progress bar or other indication the download was in process until the Mountain Lion installer appeared in the Dock.

1. Click on that,
2. enter your Mac password,
3. wait half an hour for the install to complete and its done.

Total effort to install Mountain Lion: four clicks, two passwords, and two carriage returns. In your case there is probably the added complication of verifying the free upgrade and I don't know what that involves but if it is anything like an App Store gift card correctly entering the too long card serial number is a bit of a pain.

An early 2008 MacBook Air and a 2000 something MacBook refused to download the update because they are not compatible with Mountain Lion, but that certainly should not effect your new MacBook. Incompatible applications, such as Parallels Desktop were moved to a folder dedicated to incompatible apps until such time as they are updated by their developers. At least one app. BOINC X, requested that it be reinstalled, but it has done the same thing with at least the last three upgrades of OS X. other than that, no problems so far.

I am referring to the link I gave above on "installing Mountain Lion" on the Apple support page. It talked about messages that might pop up about hard drives, etc.

Rita

Have I missed something?

I read the three detailed articles provided by a previous poster, but could not see any reference to whether or not one can "opt out" of iCloud in MOUNTAIN LION.

Therefore, the question remains: Does one have to sign up for and use iCloud in order to run MOUNTAIN LION OSX 10.8?

P.S. Apart from privacy/security issues with the concept of iCloud, one would not be able to run MOUNTAIN LION without an internet connection (to iCloud) . . . if the reality is that one is required to use iCloud when the computer is turned on. Of course, that does not make sense to me unless APPLE is designing its software to force users to tap into iCloud as their new way of "doing business."

Note: I do not use iCloud, any social networks or any IOS devices with my computer.

RSS in older versions isn't very good. You can continue to use RSS; just use an RSS program like NetNewsWire, which is free. You can download it here.

The warning messages that worry you about installing Mountain Lion only apply if you use Boot Camp. If you don't know what that is, you don't use it. (Boot Camp is a way to erase and set aside part of your hard drive to let your computer run Microsoft Windows if you want it to. It is not the same as running Microsoft Windows using a program like VMWare Fusion or Parallels.)

If you do not have part of your hard drive specially erased and partitioned for Windows, then you do not need to worry about seeing those error messages; they don't apply to you.

Bottom line:
If you don't have a lot of or any mobile devices and/or have "doubts" about iCloud (especially in the realm of privacy preservation), then Mountain Lion l0.8 ain't for you, even if the price is right.
I can see no reason (for me) to "upgrade" — for exactly the above reasons.

If Launchpad is in your dock, you'd see a progress bar on that icon. Also, for more details, if you switch the App Store to the Purchases section, you should see a progress bar and data transferred sizes there as well.

Regarding iCloud, you can enable / disable a variety of syncing individually. Mail, Contacts, Calendar, Notes, Safari, Photo Stream, Documents, Back to My Mac and Find My Mac.

iCloud works off your Apple ID.

I don't think this requires anything more than Lion did.

Thank you, Tacit, for that clear post. Eased my mind. Now I just need to decide if I want to use it. I guess I'd better hurry up and order my external drive because I should probably backup Lion into Time Machine before I do this, right. I am assuming I would have an unadulterated Lion that way should I decide to go back.

Rita

Check out David Pogue's assessment of Mountain Lion: The Payout in an Apple Upgrade

Thank you. That put it in perspective.

Rita

That is what I expected but while I did not get a progress bar in either place on my iMac the download did take place.

By-the-way I really like the new all purpose search and link bar in Safari 6.0 as well as the progress bar that appears at its right end. Much more visible than the tiny progress bar in Safari 5.x.

I'd actually suggest that rather than using Time Machine, you download the free program Carbon Copy Cloner. It will make an exact copy of your hard drive onto the external, so if you decide you don't like Mountain Lion, you can boot from the external and be instantly back in Lion without faffing about with Time Machine.

I must surmise that it's more complicated getting Lion back off of Time Machine. So, I will download Carbon Copy. Thanks.

Rita

Carbon Copy Cloner is no longer free. According to the developer's web site, "CCC is now a commercial product".

Boo!!

Rita

IMHO, it's worth the price. If you buy before August 12, there's a promotional price of $29.96. Personally, I use SuperDuper,which is only $1.01 more. I have nothing against CCC, but I have used SD for years and find it to be user friendly and reliable. The developer's tech support is outstanding.

Either one is a fine choice and will cost you less than having dinner out.

You do have to have an Apple account in order to use the App Store, which is the only way to get the Mountain Lion upgrade. While that will give you an automatic and FREE iCloud account. However there is no compulsion for you to either activate or use it,

I can second Jon's recommendation of SuperDuper!, even though CCC would work as well. SD, however is free, albeit without some features like scheduling, for which the shareware fee is necessary. But you don't need those paid features in normal use.

OK, I downloaded Super Duper. When I back stuff up, is it a good idea to use Super Duper and Time Machine just to make sure, or is that overkill?

Rita

I use SD and TM, although on different drives. You could use them on separate partitions of the same drive. TM machine gives you the ability to revert to any system, or restore files, from many different days. SD allows you to revert from only the last clone, but you can boot from a SD hard drive, which you can't do with TM (at least previous to Mountain Lion).

Thanks, Jon. I'll probably do it on a separate partition. I'm not ready to spend more money on more drives!!

Rita

I would not recommend keeping a Time Machine backup and a SuperDuper (or CCC) clone on the same hard drive volume.

A Time Machine backup and a clone are two different things and serve different, even very different purposes. Consider this scenario with a Super Duper or CCC clone

1. You make a CCC or SuperDuper backup of your system on Monday night
2. Tuesday you accidentally (or intentionally) delete a file
3. Tuesday night you make your regular CCC or SuperDuper backup
4. Wednesday you realize that file you deleted had information in it that you desperately needed so you go looking for it in the cloned version of your HD. But it is not there because you overwrote the clone the last time you cloned your drive.

With Time Capsule the scenario would be more like:

1. You accidentally or intentionally delete a file
2. an hour, day, week, or even months later you realize that file had information in it that you critically need.
3. You open Time Machine and scroll back in time to a point where you know you had the file
4. You find the file, using the Time Machine version of Finder, select it, and click the button labeled "Restore"

The clone is great for recovering your complete system in the event of a catastrophic failure. Time Machine can recover your complete system in the event of a catastrophic failure but it will take longer. On the other hand the clone is useless for recovering that file you deleted with your great aunt Matilda's that you deleted six months ago unless you only clone your system every seven months or longer which pretty much makes the clone a historical artifact.

Aren't the Time Machine and the Time Capsule two different things? Just checking.

Rita

Time Machine is the app; a Time Capsule is Apple's expensive solution to backing up your Mac with Time Machine.

I recommended using separate partitions. That means that the TM backup and the clone would, effectively, be on different volumes. As far as I can tell, the only downside to this scheme would be a catastrophic failure of the entire hard drive, which would take down both partitions. Otherwise, it should work as well as having a different hard drive for each backup.

The downside to partitioning a Time Machine drive is the smaller space available for Time Machine will force data to drop off the back end of the backup stream sooner because of the reduced space.

Yeah, I looked at Time Capsule and thought "What?" $300.00? Anyway, I'm glad I just got a regular old external hard drive. I did, BTW, get 1 TB as suggested.

Rita

Hi Jon:

Yeah, that's what I was going to do. That seemed reasonable to me. Not quite understanding what Joe Mike said. Does that give you pause for thought, or are you staying with the partition thing on one drive?

I don't know how to partition, but I think I will see how to do it better once I get the drive into my hands.

It is definitely a very good idea to use both Time Machine and something like SuperDuper.

Time Machine backs up on an hourly basis, where a clone copy is a back up of one particularly moment. After that moment passes and things change, where is the back up for that?

On the other hand, a clone copy gives you the ability to startup your computer in the event that your computer hard drive has issues.

Hi Ira:

You said: "On the other hand, a clone copy gives you the ability to startup your computer in the event that your computer hard drive has issues."

I would have thought Time Machine would have that capability.

Jon said something similar.

Maybe with Mountain Lion.

Rita

There are advantages with both TM and clones, but they don't live easily on the same (partitioned) drive, unless it's big enough*. This is because the clone partition may need to be the size of the HD to be cloned (even if only partly used), and the TM partition should ideally be several times that.
(In your case, in which you have a relatively small amount of data to which you don't expect to add much more in the way of new or changed material, the TM size 'multiplication factor' may be smaller, as the past covered by TM on it may be large enough with the backup HD you have.)

Joemikeb's comment that data on the TM will eventually 'drop off the back end of the backup stream', means that when the partition is full TM will start deleting the oldest data to make room for the new. The net effect of this is that the smaller the drive or partition, the less far back in time TM will be able to go.

Take home message: if you only have one drive of a size less than let's say 2-3 times your Mac's HD, go for the TM solution which serves both purposes, albeit requiring more time for full recovery compared to a clone.

*) this doesn't cover the option to restart from a separate (clone) drive if the TM or the Mac HD should have problems doing so.

Ok. Thanks for the explanation. Look what I found:

How to make a bootable drive in Mt. Lion


Another way to make a bootable backup of Mountain Lion

Rita

][/url]

SuperDuper and Time Machine work in very different ways.

SuperDuper copies your hard drive over to your new hard drive. Time Machine makes a file on your new hard drive and copies all your data into that. If you use both, you have two separate backups, taking up twice as much space on your hard disk. Your hard disk would have to be, at an absolute minimum, twice as big as the amount of space you are using on your internal disk if you want to use both.

Well, then it's a good thing I got a 1 TB hardrive!! Two would have been better but...

Thanks for the explanation on the differences.

Rita

Your first link doesn't work, Rita...
I see http://www.coolestguyplanettech.com/make-a-bootable-usb-drive-of-os-x-10-8-mountain-lion-using-the-recovery-partition/%3Cbr%20/%3E in Safari's address bar, but I can't get to your linked doc unless I lop off everything that follows "partition." (http://www.coolestguyplanettech.com/make...overy-partition)

Thanks, Artie. Fixed it!!

Rita

Apparently Apple claims 200 new features but I think that includes many as improvements. I don't use iCloud at all and during install they give you a 'Set Up iCloud' panel and all you do is uncheck that box if you don't want iCloud.

With Gatekeeper, ML gives the Mac better security than ever (which is not saying much; you should add third-part security). But I use Snow Leopard all the time and just fool around with these later editions of OS X on another partition.

During the install, you'll be presented with a window that says something like 'SetUp for iCloud'. It asks 'do you want to install iCloud' Just click on that and you'll be presented with a 'Yes' beside a box that by default is checked. Just uncheck the box if you don't want iCloud.

I was assuming your cloned copy would be on its own hard drive. Therefore, if your computer's physical drive died, you would still be able to start things up and hit the ground running, albeit with a snapshot of how things were the last time you made your clone. You could fix your computer's hard drive at some later time.

If you use Time Machine, your computer's hard drive has to be functional. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. If not, now you have to install a working drive and then restore from Time Machine. What you end up with here is how things were the last time Time Machine backed things up, which is likely to be more recent than a cloned copy.

As others have pointed out, each approach has its strengths and weaknesses. And has been said, if you can only do one of these options, I too would go with Time Machine.

OK, this may sound weird, but if I have backed up my hard drive on an external drive via Time Machine and/or Super Duper, wouldn't Time Machine work from either partition since it's been backed up, also?

In other words, you said my hard drive would have to be functional to use Time Machine. But, why can't I boot Time Machine off of my external drive if my internal hard drive dies? Maybe I'm just not getting this completely. I have made progress, though. This used to be foreign territory.

Thanks.

Rita

You don't boot one drive off of another. You just boot a drive. What he meant was that TM can't restore your data without a functional drive to restore it to.

If you are backing up by cloning an internal drive onto an external, and the internal dies, you can then boot off the external and get back up and running immediately. The disadvantage is that you no longer have a backup; the external that used to be your backup is now your running copy, and if anything happens to it you're SOL.

So, in the event that your internal dies, your first order of business is to buy a replacement drive, and clone your backup onto the replacement. Then you can start using the replacement drive as your boot drive, and continue backing it up as before.

If you back up using Time Machine, and your internal drive dies, your first order of business is to get a replacement drive and restore your data onto it from Time Machine. Then you can start using the replacement drive as your boot drive, and continue backing up as before.

The only difference is that a clone backup gives the option, if you're really in a hurry to get back up and running, to boot off the clone, knowing that doing so leaves you with no backup.

If you can afford the time to wait for the replacement drive to arrive, and the time it takes to restore, both methods are equally effective. Restoring your data to the new replacement is just as fast whether you're restoring it from a clone or from Time Machine.

Okay. Thanks. And I will definitely get a new hard drive ASAP should this happen!!

Rita

> But, why can't I boot Time Machine off of my external drive if my internal hard drive dies?

If I understand that question, the answer is that although Time Machine can be used to create a bootable volume, a Time Machine backup is not bootable in and of itself (as opposed to a cloned backup which is).

Right. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks, Artie.

Rita

I have a TM backup partitioned-volume as well as a Superduper clone partitioned-volume on a FW 800 drive (connected by a FW 800 cable).

I use DU to dismount the clone partition before turning TM On; as result, TM doesn't see the dismounted clone-partition. (I have also deleted the clone partition in the TM prefs - when the clone partition was mounted - so TM does not try using the clone partition.)

I am also careful to turn TM Off before activating Superduper to clone.

(Of course, I then must dismount the clone partition to then, re-activate TM.)

This "procedure" might seem a bit kludgy, but it's just several clicks for steps.

No problems.

Is that just your way of doing it, or do I have to do that, also. It's kind of confusing having never done it. Still waiting for my WD external drive.


Rita

I have separate hard drives for TM and a SD clone. I never turn off TM while cloning, and never thought of it for that matter. FWIW, I'm not having any problems.

Hi Jon:

I hope it all works out with me using just one external drive for both TM and SD. I thought I would use SD to clone my current brand new hard drive so that Lion would be easily accessible should I want it back.

Then I will download Mountain Lion and put it on TM and maybe SD, also.

I use very little of my Hard Drive so it shouldn't be a problem. I have a 500 GB HD and a 1 TB external drive (when it comes). I am presently using 16 GB. I will probably download a utility now and then, but that will probably be it. I barely used any of my iBook G4 drive and it was only 60 GB.

So.....?

Rita

I agree there are several steps; but candidly I'm currently taking them as I just recently (about a month ago from this writing) began using TM.

(Previously, I was doing 3 separate clones. Now, I'm doing 2 clones - on separate physical, FW drives - and the 1 TM backup on a FW drive also having a clone.)

As I had not previously used TM and wasn't that familiar with it other than reading about set-up details, I wanted to make sure I didn't have any issues with the 1 clone being on the same FW drive (albeit, on separate partitions).

Regarding turning TM Off before doing a clone, I read somewhere a long time ago it was a good idea to do it, safeguarding against TM activating during a cloning; so, as a precaution, I turn TM Off (and then, reactivate after cloning).

Here's a possibly, very good reason to have TM Off when cloning... In the event one either boots to a clone (for quick testing) or an actual emergency restore, I wouldn't want the clone to already have TM On in the immediate use of the clone in either situation.

So, my current procedure with TM is very precautionary.

I read on the SuperDuper website that there will be the option to save a backup as a disk image. What does that mean and what is the advantage or disadvantage for going that way? Thanks.

Rita

A "disk image" is just a file. When you save a backup as a disk image, it takes all the files on your hard drive and stuffs them inside one big file. There are times when that is an advantage, but for ordinary backups, it's probably not what you want to do.

so do I need to post the latest version of my wildly popular (at least here) Klone script?

Thanks. I'll just leave it has it is (when I finally get my drive!!) and go from there.

Rita

Saving the clone as a disk image works well when you are "cloning" multiple machines to the same hard drive. Each clone ends up in its own distinct separate disk image. Otherwise it would be necessary to partition the backup drive for each machine you are backing up with a clone.

In your case that would not be necessary and might even be counter-productive.

OK, now I've done it. When I ordered my WD external hard drive, I didn't know it had to be mac specific (should have known). The only way I can use it without limitations (according to the literature) is to reformat my hard drive. Well, that means erasing everything.

I think the best thing to do would be to return the drive, get the proper one and in the mean time, partition my hard drive so that I will have a separate place for Mountain Lion so I can download it in the next few days while waiting for the new external drive. Does that make sense? I only have until 8/24/12 to download Mountain Lion for free, and I'm not sure I will receive my new hard drive by then.

Rita


quote=artie505] Time Machine is the app; a Time Capsule is Apple's expensive solution to backing up your Mac with Time Machine. [/quote]

OK, thanks for that. Rita

Your quote seems to indicate you think you need to reformat your - my - hard drive, which I take to mean your internal hard drive. ...Do not attempt it unless you already have a clone on another, external FireWire (FW) drive. ...If I've misunderstood and you've already cloned to this new, WD FW drive, try booting to it in order to check whether it works. (Testing should always be done in any event to insure a clone works.) If Startup Disk, in Utilities, allows you to select this external drive, then, it should be working. If not, then simply reformat the external drive (see below).

I believe you've misunderstood the WD drive instructions. If this WD FW drive (out of the box) is pre-formatted for Windows (the box should say), you'll only need to use OS X Disk Utility to reformat, via the Erase tab, for Mac OS Extended (Journaled).

All of WD's drives are Windows/Mac compatible (some are already formatted for Mac out of the box), but if formatted for Windows (out of the box), then, reformatting the external drive must be completed first.

Regarding external drives, when the objective is to use for bootable clones, these drives must be FireWire (FW) drives. (BTW, I recommend using a FW 800 drive with FW 800 cables, if you've got a lot of stuff on your internal drive. FW 800 drives / cables transfer faster.) ...For cloning, the external drive can NOT be a USB drive since USB drives are not bootable.

Oh man! No one told me about the USB thing! I have an ethernet port (no cable), a thunderbolt port, (no cable) and two usb 3.0 capable ports along with an SDXC (?) card slot.

I think I got ahold of the wrong instructions. I looked up partitioning a macbook pro and it said if I had an external hard drive that was configured for Windows, I would have to reformat my drive and first wipe it clean. They were using Disk Utility.

So, now I guess i had better return the drive because I don't have the proper FireWire drive.

But, I can still partition my internal drive so I can download Mountain Lion and then, when I get the proper drive, clone Lion and Mountain Lion, right. I'm low tech, so you need to speak in beginner terms.

Rita

Relax. That was bad advice. Macs have been able to boot off USB for quite some time now. (At least 6 years, maybe more.)

Thanks for that. Okay, I am going to plug in my hard drive, get rid of the stuff that's on it as suggested earlier ( hope that's easy), reformat it for the Mac, partition it with DU, and then download Mt. Lion. Crossing my fingers. Man, I wish I had someone here to watch me. Rita

Ok, so from what I've been reading and watching on YouTube, when I format my external drive to the OS X, I will be completely erasing my internal hard drive. Would that happen if I just got the mac compatible hard drive? I don't want to erase everything. What have I gotten myself into? I just want to clone stuff and use Time Machine as backups.

Rita

Stop everything and make a cup of tea. It's clear that some of the video you've been viewing has made things unclear.

The is FineTunedMac and you will shortly get better advice.

Meanwhile do not instruct anything to erase. Have the tea.

Good advice. I am freaking out. Maybe they meant the external hard drive would be wiped clean which is fine. But, they just kept saying hard drive. If it's the external hard drive being erased, no problem. I will wait, drink my tea and see what happens. Thank you!

Rita

That doesn't sound the least bit correct, Rita; unless I'm seriously misunderstanding something, reformatting your external drive wipes it clean and doesn't touch your internal. (How about posting a link to the exact drive you bought, so we can see precisely with what you're dealing.)

And finally, you may not be able to do what you want to do vis-a-vis Lion/Mt. Lion, by which I mean that you may not be able to simply d/l ML, rather you may have to upgrade a Lion installation to get it, and if that's the case, I suggest that you wait for better instructions than I can give you before proceeding, because you wouldn't want to overwrite Lion without having saved a copy first.

Edit: And, by the way, Apple has finally listed its Apple Thunderbolt to FireWire Adapter for $29.

Hi Artie:

I guess I freaked too soon. The YouTube I watched talked about it being a brand new laptop do it didn't matter if it was erased. So, I thought it meant the internal hard drive even though they were formatting an external drive from PC to Mac compatible.

Anyway, I was going to backup Lion onto the external drive and then download Mt. Lion to the internal drive from Lion. Then backup Mt. Lion with TM and maybe SuperDuper. Does that make sense?

The drive I bought was Western Digital My Passport 1 TB USB 3.0 Portable Hard Drive - WDBBEP0010BSL-NESN (Silver).

Rita

I stand corrected on my prior statement, in reference to Intel based Macs - which can use either USB or FW for bootable clones. ...Apologies for causing confusion.

PowerPC (G4) based Macs require FW drives, however, for creating a bootable clone.

That's okay. You were trying to help. It was taken care of. No problem.

Rita

> I have an ethernet port (no cable), a thunderbolt port, (no cable) and two usb 3.0 capable ports along with an SDXC (?) card slot.

According to MacBook Pro 13-inch - Apple Store your MBP also has a FireWire 800 port.

Here's the dope on your HD, Rita:


The "compatibility" caveat shouldn't affect you, but yes, you must reformat your WD drive, and no, you don't have to erase your internal HD to do it.

As for your backup plan, it sounds OK to me, but I'll kick your question upstairs to posters who are more knowledgeable on the subject, particularly as respects how many and what size partitions you'll need.

So I see! Just not the cable. Thanks.

OK, thanks. I'll wait for that info so I don't screw things up. i need to know the partition numbers on the internal drive and the external drive I guess. Or do I? Oh well. I'll wait.

Thanks again.

Rita

Rita, many years ago I gave up partitioning hard drives because I found no matter what partitioning scheme I came up with it was almost inevitable I would find space I desperately needed on one partition (volume) was on the other volume. While Disk Utility, and some third party utilities can enlarge a partition it is a process fraught with the risk of losing everything and not one I would want to attempt, particularly where a Time Machine volume is involved. That said, since you are determined on your course of partitioning your external drive, I recommend using the minimum space necessary to contain your clone plus the inevitable growth in OS X, applications, data file plus the space needed for swap drives, and the myriad other invisible temporary files created and used by your applications. That leaves the maximum space possible available for your Time Machine backup.

You have talked about having two "images" one Lion and the other Mountain Lion. That is not as straightforward as it may seem and presents major complications with applications and more importantly, data because of backward compatibility issues from Mountain Lion that I don't think you want to take on so I am assuming a Mountain Lion clone only.

You have previously stated… With that in mind, I would recommend a partition scheme of:

• Mountain Lion Clone volume — 50 GB
• Time Machine Volume — 950 GB

These numbers will be slightly different because of space required for the GUID partition data but this should be close enough.

1. So, can I make a clone of Lion and Mt. Lion onto my external drive (Super Duper) without partitioning it? Would that be better? I am just kind of finding my way through all of this. I have never had an external drive nor felt the need. Now for some reason I think I need one.

2. Can I put Mt. Lion on TM and just clone Lion without partitioning the drive external drive?

3. I thought that I should also clone Mt. Lion since it's not bootable form TM. Is that possible?

I want to make this as simple as possible. My needs are few.

4. If I find I have to partition the drive because TM and SD can't be "together" on the same drive, would 50/50 be good?

Help, I just want this to be over.....

Rita

First, refer back to ryck's post and brew yourself up a bathtub full of your favorite time-killing beverage.

Now, let's re-examine your intent, which is, as I understand it, to d/l Mt. Lion within your time window (8-24 latest) and have it available as a potential upgrade from Lion if you should choose to upgrade. Correct?

If so, then you've got the next 18-20 days to immerse yourself in Lion, find out what you like and don't like about it, do some research to see if you find Mt. Lion to be a more desirable option, and still be within your d/l window.

If I've got that straight, start immersing yourself in both Lion and your bathtub, and I'll refer back to joemikeb's post after you've responded.

Welcome to the brave new world of "It just works!"

Edit: And since it's free, it'll make sense for you to d/l Mt.Lion under any circumstances...just to have around, maybe even play with, if only for the heck of it.

> Er, I was going to download Mountain Lion directly to my Mac after I had cloned Lion to my external drive. If I really hate Mt. Lion, then I want to be able to go back.

That's exactly what I thought...the expansion of my contraction, and it introduces a new wrinkle into the matter, so be patient.

In the meantime, it'll probably be worth your while to compile a list of your Lion likes/dislikes and post it in a new thread to see if there are Lion workarounds, Mt. Lion improvements, etc.

OK, I'll try to be patient. I'll also list what I don't like in Lion. Until then.... No book suggestions?

Rita

I guess the books that'll be at the top of most lists are Davis Pogue's "Mac OS X Lion: The Missing Manual" and "OS X Mountain Lion: The Missing Manual," and even though I'm a big fan of Pogue's these days because of his "Just 'cause Apple did it don't make it great" position, I'm not in a position to offer up a substantive opinion about his or any other OS X books. (Under any circumstances, though, I wouldn't invest in any book before settling on which OS I was going to run.)

Right. I have to decide. But I figure Lion and Mt. Lion may not be that different (except for the 200 changes. LOL). So, I will probably get the Mt. Lion Book. I'm kind of leaning that way, anyway. But, time will tell.

You take care.

Rita

This discussion of backup strategy has overlooked an important point, namely that Rita is considering upgrading to Mt. Lion with a view towards possibly reverting to Lion, and if she does decide to revert she'll need a Lion recovery partition (in lieu of an install disc), so how does she perpetuate hers?

And more important, will she even be able to restore Lion after having upgraded, or will the App Store have pegged her Mac pegged at Mt. Lion, costing her the ability to revert via that avenue?

Time Machine can restore to a prior OS. Let TM do a full disk restore to a time when you were on the prior OS, then let TM recover your home folder (or perhaps just your documents folder) back to its latest state. Let the App Store bring your apps back up to date. But frankly, the difference between Lion and MtLion is so slight that it's unlikely you'll ever need to roll back. Especially if you're a new user and don't have a lot of cruft anchoring you in the past.

The App Store still offers to let me download Lion (because I've purchased it) even though I've moved up to MtLion (which it also offers to let me download). In each case, what App Store sees is that I purchased the installer but no longer have it. It doesn't care that they're OS installers; to the App Store, they're just apps. It doesn't even see them as different versions of the same app.

I think you're right about me not knowing the difference as I am a new user to Lion. I am not entrenched. I don't understand the quote:
Time Machine can restore to a prior OS. Let TM do a full disk restore to a time when you were on the prior OS, then let TM recover your home folder (or perhaps just your documents folder) back to its latest state. Maybe once I've familiarized myself with TM I will get that.

I'm still waiting on anwers to questions I asked a day or two ago, then I will start my backups.

Thanks for your response.

Rita

Don't worry about that. That's an advanced topic. I was responding to artie505, who was wondering if we were telling you to paint yourself into a corner, and I was assuring him that we were not. I see no likelihood that you would ever want to revert from MtLion back to Lion, but should the need arise the option will be there. (It will be somewhat tricky, though, and not to be undertaken lightly.)


I've lost track. Which questions are you still waiting answers on?

OK, then I won't worry about it. If I want to go back to Lion, I'll bug you guys about the tricky parts.

The questions I asked JoeMike yesterday. Thanks for asking.

1. So, can I make a clone of Lion and Mt. Lion onto my external drive (Super Duper) without partitioning it? Would that be better? I am just kind of finding my way through all of this. I have never had an external drive nor felt the need. Now for some reason I think I need one.

2. Can I put Mt. Lion on TM and just clone Lion without partitioning the drive external drive?

3. I thought that I should also clone Mt. Lion since it's not bootable form TM. Is that possible?

I want to make this as simple as possible. My needs are few.

4. If I find I have to partition the drive because TM and SD can't be "together" on the same drive, would 50/50 be good?

Help, I just want this to be over.....

Rita

Your posts and Rita's responses have clouded the issue I was attempting to investigate, so I'll restate my question generically...

In the beginning, Apple gave us, in the form of install discs, the option to revert to any version of OS X for which we owned a license, for any reason including your own "The second most common scenario is where you need to re-install the OS."

Recently, as respects upgraders, anyhow, those discs have changed from physical to virtual, in the form of repeatable d/l's from the App Store (forgetting about the fact that the App Store upgrades its d/l's to keep step with OS X).

What I was trying to determine is whether purchasers of new Macs, which come with neither install discs nor accompanying App Store d/l's, Rita included, still have the same option by virtue of their recovery partitions after they've upgraded and without regard for Time Machine backups and clones.

And further, I was trying to determine what, if any, steps must be taken to preserve that option, if it still exists, in the face of upgrades.

Yes. Time Machine and Super Duper backups can live on the same partition of the same hard drive. Time Machine puts its backup into a disk image file.



Yes.



Is it possible? Yes. But in order to do it, you will have to partition the drive. There's no way to have a bootable clone of Lion and Mountain Lion on the same drive at the same time without partitioning.



Time Machine does more than just a clone. It keeps multiple copies ("versions") of your files. Say you have a Word document, for instance. It keeps multiple copies of the Word document, so that you can go back to an earlier version if you want. For that reason, I would give Time Machine a larger partition.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Would it be fine to have 3 partitions? One for TM, one for Mt. Lion clone and one for Lion clone?

Would it be advisable to clone the whole hard drive? If so, would I need a 4th partition?

After this info, I will make my decisions and then start working on it.

Also, should I make some kind of mistake when using SD and TM and get something in the wrong partition, can I just move it or delete it and start over? I'm hoping they ask which partition I want to use.

Thanks so much for your help and time.

Rita

I've been trying to follow the thread, and I'm not sure the upgrade process to Mountain Lion, which is through the Mac App Store only, has been clearly communicated in all the discussion of partitioning, TM backup & cloning of Lion and Mountain Lion. There's a definitive progression in the upgrade procedure...

I transitioned from 10.7.4 Lion to Mountain Lion 10.8.0, and it is an upgrade process set in motion by purchasing 10.8 on the Mac App Store.

At present, one can not download a disk image file of Mountain Lion, which would allow a subsequent install - say, like downloading a 10.7.4 Combo Client disk image file for later install. So presently, I believe the only way to get Mountain Lion is to through the Mac App Store process, which initiates an installation procedure.

(Plantsower, I assume no charge will be made to your CC as long as you upgrade before 8/24 - but, I don't know how Apple handles that part.)

Once one clicks to purchase of Mountain Lion from the Mac App Store, the upgrade process begins in a continuing process typical of how the Mac App Store installs new - or updates - software.

When this upgrade process is completed, via a restart, the previous OS is no longer on the internal drive since the internal drive is now running Mountain Lion OS 10.8. (As this procedure basically works like an "update," all user files, folder structures, system preferences, & settings are maintained as they were with the prior OS set-up.)

In my situation, I had completed 1 external-drive TM backup and 1 external-drive clone before beginning the upgrade procedure. ...Then, either my TM backup or the clone could have been used for a restore of OS 10.7.4 on the internal drive.

[ IMHO, regarding Mountain Lion, it is the next progression in the Mac OS, regardless of whether one uses iCloud. If one's using 10.7.+ Lion, it certainly makes sense for Macs around 2 years old or newer, to upgrade (for $20, why not ?). There are, however, some niggling issues with 10.8.0 - not real big ones, at least for me - that cause me to generally advise waiting for 10.8.+ and then, install Mountain Lion. My upgrade installation went very smoothy, nonetheless, and 10.8.0 is working very well on my MBP Mid-2010.]

I hope I've provided some helpful clarification about the Mac App Store procedure in this post.

Thanks, pbGluy. Upgrading to Mt. Lion isn't really the issue I'm dealing with. I plan to upgrade after I clone it and back it up on TM. I have a page saved from Apple on downloading it for free, so no problem there. I'm just waiting for answers to some of my previous partition questions before I do all of that. Sounds like we're on the same page with the backing up, though.

Rita

Yes, that would be fine.


Each of the Lion and MtLion clones would, presumably, be a clone of the whole (internal) hard drive. From what you've said, you have very little of your own personal data as of yet, so there's no reason to go through the hassle of excluding your personal files from either of these clones. Another clone would be superfluous.


SuperDuper and TimeMachine will each ask which partition you want to use. You should carefully read which partition they're asking about before you say OK.

OK. I think I have all my questions answered (unless more pop up . Thank you, and thanks to everyone who took time to help me on this arduous journey into a new OS.

I will be ordering a Missing Manuel book soon, so I won't need to ask to many questions.

Thanks again to everyone for your kind assistance!

Rita

I'm curious about the answer to the question posed in my last post, if not necessarily for the sake of this thread, then simply for the sake of knowledge.

Thanks.

Purchasing Lion or MtLion from the App Store entitles you to download and run an installer for that version of the OS.

The downloaded installer will begin running as soon as it's downloaded, but you can interrupt it at any time. (For me, it was a four-hour download, followed by a half-hour install, ending with a restart.)

There is a dialog that pops up after the download but before the install. You can cancel the install at that point, squirrel away a copy of the installer, and then relaunch the installer to do the install. You don't have to lose your copy of the installer.

The squirreled-away copy of the installer can be used to reinstall the OS, or to install it on another partition or on another machine that you control. This spares you the four-hour (depending on your internet bandwidth) re-download.

The installer can also be re-downloaded at any time from the App Store, by going to the "Purchases" tab and clicking the "Download" button next to the purchase.

The copy of MtLion she "purchases" for free through the Up-To-Date program counts as a purchase. (I bought Lion the same way a year ago, and it's still showing up on my Purchases list, even though I'm on MtLion.)

I don't know whether App Store will show the copy of Lion that came pre-installed, because pre-installed does not necessarily count as purchased. (The firmware on her computer remembers it came with Lion and therefore carries a license for it. Pre-installed does mean licensed.) The 10.7.4 Combo Updater is still available (http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1524) from Apple. The Combo Updater has enough information that it could re-install on a blank drive, but I don't know if it will. It may accept the firmware's assurance of a license, or it may not.

In any event she can get back to Lion using either TM or SD. And isn't likely to need to.

That I'm not too sure of. If you purchased it from the App Store (even if through the Up-To-Date program), then you can always re-download the installer. So I assume you're talking about the version that came pre-installed.

The recovery partition will let you re-download "the installer". Trouble is, installing MtLion upgrades the recovery partition so that "the installer" it looks for is for MtLion.

It sure would be nice if it gave you the choice which OS to download and install. Somehow, I doubt it.


I think the real answer is: if you want to be able to go back in time, make backups! You can't eat your cake without baking it.

One possible gotcha is that restoring your system back to Lion will not necessarily (in fact, almost certainly will not) also restore you recovery partition back to Lion. I can't see how this would be a problem, but just in case, you could back up your recovery partition and rewrite it.

Rita: this is an advanced topic. Feel free to ignore the rest of this post.

The first step to backing up/restoring a recovery partition is to identify it:

That's sample output for a disk that has two partitions each with (Mt)Lion installed. Each partition with (Mt)Lion installed gets it own recovery partition. Let's focus on the first one, the one whose IDENTIFIER is disk0s3. To back it up, get a root shell (a one-line sudo won't suffice) and duplicate it to a file:
(The reason you need an actual root shell is that if you try to say
sudo dd </dev/disk0s3 >RecoveryForLion
bash will try to do the redirection first, before invoking sudo. It'll fail, because it does not yet have permission to access the block special device /dev/disk0s3.)

This creates a 650MB file RecoveryForLion (or some other name of your choice) that is a clone of the recovery partition. To restore it later, just reverse the redirection:

Creating a recovery partition if one does not exist can be done through diskutil, but it's probably less error-prone to let the installer (any installer) create it for you.

Above and beyond the call of duty...many thanks.

> So I assume you're talking about the version that came pre-installed.

Correct.

> The recovery partition will let you re-download "the installer". Trouble is, installing MtLion upgrades the recovery partition so that "the installer" it looks for is for MtLion.

It sure would be nice if it gave you the choice which OS to download and install. Somehow, I doubt it.

Would be nice, wouldn't it, not to mention appropriate. (If your guess is correct, this will mark at least the second time Apple has supported small $ upgraders while forsaking big $$$ purchasers of new Macs.)

Your earlier post in which you mentioned that the "firmware on her (Rita's) computer remembers it came with Lion and therefore carries a license for it" held the hope that maybe that would give the recovery process some direction, but somebody will have to either suffer a catastrophe or be willing to experiment to find out.

> One possible gotcha is that restoring your system back to Lion will not necessarily (in fact, almost certainly will not) also restore you recovery partition back to Lion. I can't see how this would be a problem, but just in case, you could back up your recovery partition and rewrite it.

I assume you mean restoring from a Time Machine backup or clone?

That sounds correct as respects TM, and as for clones, I've done a bit of research, and CCC does deal with recovery partitions while SuperDuper! does not yet have the capability. (No opinions offered.)

Also, Apple's Recovery Disk Assistant seems to be a front end for your commands, but I appreciate your having posted them...learned something new.

But as for "To restore it later, just reverse the redirection:," that applies to overwriting, let's say, a Mt. Lion recovery partition with a Lion partition, not to restoring a partition that has been lost, correct?

Rita: this is an advanced topic. Feel free to ignore the rest of this post.

Thank you. My eyes were crossing!!

Rita

> iBook G4 [...] (still own)

I just focused on that.

I had the same iBook G4, and when I bought my MacBook I checked eBay and found that it was worth anywhere from $400 - $600, but just as I was getting set to list it my daughter's Mini crapped out and I loaned it to her.

I finally had it back in my hands close to a year later, checked eBay again, and was getting set to list it when a friend announced that he had to rent a portable to facilitate completion of a project...out on loan again.

6 - 8 months later the iBook completed its travels, and eBay told me that it was worth...well, not quite nothing, but not quite something.

I called my daughter, asked whether either her niece or nephew needed a computer, and wound up making a little kid phenomenally happy.

eBay ain't the only answer!

Yeah, I was going to give mine away. That's what I usually do with my old computers. But then my husband reminded me that when I did have it in the shop once, they kept it 3 weeks. And then they really didn't help me much thus, you guys. This time I will at least have a backup. And if it gets really bad (that's why I replaced it), I will just wipe the hard drive and reinstall Tiger and update that. I never sell anything. Always donate.

Rita

Just adding to the info on Mt. Lion. Others may have stated this, but my computer is running hotter and the battery runs out sooner since adding Mt. Lion. Sorry, I didn't have time to read all the posts.

Rita

For what it's worth, this and this suggest that your problem is probably not a local one.

Hi Artie:

Yep. I knew I wasn't the only one. I guess a lot of people have complained to Apple but with no response. I remember when I first got my MBP in July how happy I was that it was so cool on the bottom. My iBook was hotter. Now that I've installed Mt. Lion I have to use a lap desk or it's uncomfortable in my lap. Sad.

Rita

Hi, Rita,

Although I haven't read that Apple is even aware of the problem, maybe they're working on it all the same; it's one I hope they'd want to resolve.

On the other hand, though, you've got both your Lion clone and Time Machine, so it looks like it's time to justify all the time and effort you invested in learning about them.

And finally, so much for those who couldn't imagine any reason why you would possibly want to downgrade from Mt. Lion to Lion.

Ha-ha. Yeah. I think I'm putting it off because I like notifications for one, and I'm not in the mood to try to figure out how to boot up from the external drive. I imagine I can look it up, though. Thanks.

Rita

> ...how to boot up from the external drive.

With your drive plugged in and mounted, restart your MBP with the option key depressed, and you'll be presented with your boot options. (If your HD has the same name on both your boot drive and your clone, the left-most appropriately named icon is most likely to be your boot drive.)

Edit: Depress the option key immediately after you hear the chime.

> "I like notifications"

Huh?

By the way, Rita, I suggest that you call AppleCare, not necessarily to ask for help, but to make sure that Apple is aware of the issue and that you are not alone in experiencing it.

The tech's response will be telling.

Oh, that's simple. Thanks.

I take it you don't have Mountain Lion? Notifications is one of the new toys. It notifies you when you get an email by announcing who it's from. It let's you know when you have a calendar alert (which is why I like it. The i-Cal alerts didn't work in Lion very well and I depend on it.) It also notifies you when you have a new RSS feed, and other stuff.

Rita

> Notifications is one of the new toys.

Oops...forgot about that.

One of the down-sides of not upgrading is that it takes longer to get acquainted with new features than when they're at your fingertips.

It also makes it a lot harder to take advantage of those new features that you don't have.[

My perception of what, if any, new features I want to take advantage of transcends Apple's imaginary "reality" as respects what new features I need and governs my decision whether or not to upgrade.

CCC is free if you donated in the past.

What's CCC?

Rita

CCC is Carbon Copy Cloner.

Ok. Thanks, Jon.

Rita

But you'd better stash away a copy of ~/Library/Preferences/com.bombich.ccc.plist in case of emergency.

I trashed mine a coupl'a weeks back during the course of troubleshooting a problem, and the next time I launched CCC I was in "trial" mode without a serial number to enter.

I restored my original plist from a backup, and everything reverted to A-OK. (I wonder how a paid upgrade will work if one ever happens?)

I have found that Bombich Software is good and prompt about answering emails in the event your CCC registration is lost. I first paid for CCC about the time it came out of beta, so their automated online system didn't have me in its database for giving paid users a commercial serial number, and they responded to me very quickly when I emailed them.

I made my donation a bit more than two years ago, and if I received any acknowledgement - the only record I've got is a copy of my PayPal statement - it was no more than instructions about turning off the advertisements, so I'm not sure what serial # you're referring to.

My impression is that Bombich first began issuing serial #s when CCC changed from donationware to $39.95 shareware, and that was pretty recently.

Edit 1: And Mike Bombich is so cool that the instructions for turning off the ads was readily available on his Web site even to non-contributors.

Edit 2: This is somewhat helpful, but I'm no less confused about whether I should or shouldn't have a serial #; next stop, e-mail.

Edit 3: While searching, I ran across this:


So CCC went from shareware to donationware and is now shareware again.

Edit 4: I just realized that I misunderstood your post and that you seem to have been in the same position I'm in, but this may help others in the same position.

Ditto to tacit's quick response. Since I had wisely saved the details of my donation I received my serial number in less than 24 hours (despite the caveat that Mt. Lion was hogging many of the Bombich resources).