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Posted By: plantsower My New MacBook Pro - 07/21/12 09:41 PM
I'm getting used to some stuff but other stuff has me stumped!

Where is my hard drive icon?

Was I supposed to get install disks with my MacBook? I didn't.

confused

Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/21/12 09:53 PM
No install disks starting with Lion. Another good reason for Time Machine backups.

In Finder's Preference list you can choose to have your HD icon appear on the Desktop.
Posted By: alternaut Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/21/12 09:55 PM
Originally Posted By: grelber
In some Preference list you can choose to have your HD icon appear on the Desktop. I've forgotten where I found it in order to select the option.

The Finder prefs?
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/21/12 09:57 PM
We nailed it at the same moment! I had just corrected it in my earlier reply.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/21/12 10:01 PM
Right. Found it under Finder Prefs. Thanks!!!

Now about the install disks. No more archive and install and all that other stuff we used to be able to do?
Posted By: artie505 Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/21/12 11:27 PM
It was unavoidable, Rita, but you've bought yourself a problem in the sense that rather than a disk, Apple has given you a recovery partition that works via the Internet, i.e. if you need to reinstall, you've either got to download, which, with your capped bandwidth is not particularly feasible, or either maintain a more or less current backup, not necessarily Time Machine, or buy a $69 Lion thumb drive.

grelber may be in a worse position than you're in, because he's behind a 56k modem, and the download would take him 9 1/2 days to complete. If my memory serves me, he discussed the issue with Apple and was told that they could maybe arrange a free thumb drive for him. I think he dropped the matter, but I'd love to see someone push them on it, because, in short, Apple has disenfranchised that portion of the world that does not have easy/inexpensive access to broadband (and it's only going to get worse). (Edit: Apple's "user-friendly" suggestion is that you take your Mac either to a friend or relative's home or to work if you don't have broadband at home.)

As for traditional Archive & Install, I don't think that can be done any longer...you can only reinstall the most current version of OS X.

Edit 2: By the way, you ought to run Software Update, because your Safari, at the least, is out of date. (I've got v 5.1.7.)

Edit 3: Your recovery partition perpetuates much of your old install disc's functionality and also adds some new stuff.
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/21/12 11:52 PM
Mayhap. But go back to the earlier thread "Buying a new laptop" and have a gander at ganbustein's comment (#22585) ... that pretty much covers the problem, far more so than a quickly outdated system on a costly thumb drive.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/21/12 11:55 PM
Artie:

Not sure what " Your recovery partition perpetuates much of your old install disc's functionality and also adds some new stuff." means. You know me, baby talk. First grader. Even though I've been on computers for quite some time, I've never gone very deeply into them. Just want to do what I want to do.

I am updating all software as we speak but for some reason, Safari was not included. I thought that was odd because I could see it's a little out of date.

I am not quite so limited in my bandwidth now. Instead of satellite, we have a microwave system. Hope that makes sense because I can't explain it. The guy that owns it told me I would not be limited unless I wanted to download a lot of movies or something. Then I was to call him so he could "open up the pipes" so to speak, temporarily. It's faster than satellite but slower than high speed internet. Thus, I get buffering.

So, would Time Machine be a better deal because of this? I haven't priced the external hard drives yet to be able to use it.

Rita
Posted By: artie505 Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/22/12 04:58 AM
I'm not running Lion, Rita, and I've never even seen a Lion Recovery HD in action, so I can't offer much insight, but OS X Lion: About Lion Recovery will give you some. (One thing that will be new to you is the ability to repair your home folder's permissions.)

I dunno what's up with your Safari; Apple's Safari 5.1.7 page specifies "System Requirements - OS X Lion 10.7.3."

And, finally, no, your new bandwidth situation in no way affects your use of Time Machine, which has no Internet reliance; it will, however, facilitate an OS X download should a reinstallation become necessary.
Posted By: artie505 Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/22/12 05:24 AM
Originally Posted By: grelber
Mayhap. But go back to the earlier thread "Buying a new laptop" and have a gander at ganbustein's comment (#22585) ... that pretty much covers the problem, far more so than a quickly outdated system on a costly thumb drive.

Time Machine's value to many users in many situations isn't lost on me, i.e. when you travel with your iMac, you're already traveling so heavy that carrying an external HD is no big deal ( tongue ), but when Joe User goes on the road with his sleek, featherweight MacBook Air and has to carry an external HD instead of a DVD or thumb drive, sleek & light go by the boards.

Apple's having given us Time Machine doesn't negate the fact that an indeterminate percentage of the world's current and potential Mac users, you, as has been already been noted, included, has been disenfranchised and/or inconvenienced and/or forced to spend extra money for something that may, in some circumstances, be considered useless.

Edit: It would be much appreciated if you linked to posts rather than just referenced them. (There's a thread initiated by dkmarsh, my link to which is, unfortunately, damaged, so I can't post it, but maybe dk will, in which he's posted an AppleScript that copies a URL to the clipboard, although you'll sometimes have to substitute post numbers to get it to link to a particular post.)
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/22/12 08:31 AM
Originally Posted By: artie505
It would be much appreciated if you linked to posts rather than just referenced them.

I usually do, but I was in a rush and seeing as that thread was originated by plantsower and in her own bailiwick both spatially and temporally in the forums, I went with what was expedient.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/22/12 12:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Artie505
...but when Joe User goes on the road with his sleek, featherweight MacBook Air and has to carry an external HD instead of a DVD or thumb drive, sleek & light go by the boards.

Joe can backup the most critical data files to iCloud and assuming the HD has not failed completely can repair the volume structure on the HD, reinstall Lion (or Mountain Lion) and all the apps purchased through the app store from anywhere there is a high speed internet connection. So when on the road Joe can leave the Time Machine drive behind.
Originally Posted By: Artie505
Apple's having given us Time Machine doesn't negate the fact that an indeterminate percentage of the world's current and potential Mac users, you, as has been already been noted, included, has been disenfranchised and/or inconvenienced and/or forced to spend extra money for something that may, in some circumstances, be considered useless.

I seem to recall that same thing being said when Apple abandoned the floppy disk drive, OS 9, the Motorola 68000 series processors, SCSI, the PowerPC, etc. Unlike Microsoft, Apple has never clung to outdated technologies and Apple users have adapted to the changes. Watch for near future releases without Firewire, SATA, or rotating hard drives. They have to be on the list of soon to be obsolete technologies.
Posted By: Ira L Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/22/12 06:49 PM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb

Joe can backup the most critical data files to iCloud and assuming the HD has not failed completely can repair the volume structure on the HD, reinstall Lion (or Mountain Lion) and all the apps purchased through the app store from anywhere there is a high speed internet connection. So when on the road Joe can leave the Time Machine drive behind.


Rita, this is an important statement, but not readily understood if you haven't used the App Store and/or Lion. There is a link in the App Store called "Purchased" and everything you have ever purchased can be downloaded again, for free, to the same computer/Apple ID. This includes Systems, so when you upgrade to Mountain Lion 10.8 (which should be free for you since you just purchased the laptop), that can also be downloaded again. No need for install discs. Yes, the catch is you have to have an Internet connection, but that seems to be the way of the world.

So even if your hard drive dies and you can't access the Recovery partition (automatically created and present on new computers or when you install 10.7 or above) and you are forced to put in a brand new hard drive, many of your apps and System are accessible.

But you should still back up regularly, since not everything you have is covered by the above scenarios.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/22/12 07:47 PM
Thanks Ira. Learned something new again. Boy, it's like going from OS9 to OS10. Lots of learn.

I have an email into Other World Computing to see which external drive would be best for Time Machine. Now that I know some of this stuff, I see the need for Time Machine. I would never need to travel with a thumb drive or an external drive. I don't usually take my Mac with me on trips.

Rita

Posted By: tacit Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/22/12 09:44 PM
Originally Posted By: artie505
Apple's having given us Time Machine doesn't negate the fact that an indeterminate percentage of the world's current and potential Mac users, you, as has been already been noted, included, has been disenfranchised and/or inconvenienced and/or forced to spend extra money for something that may, in some circumstances, be considered useless.


I've been a computer owner since 1977, when I got my first Radio Shack TRS-80, and if there's one thing I've learned in that time it's that a backup hard drive is *never* useless.

There are two kinds of computer users in the world: those who have experienced a catastrophic loss of their hard drive, and those who will. Anyone on any computer of any kind whatsoever needs to understand that if your data are important to you, a backup system is not optional. You *will* lose data if you don't have one; it's only a matter of time.

I actually keep two--one that I do frequent backups onto, so that if my hard drive takes a header I'll never lose more than a day or two's work; and one that I do less frequent backups onto, so that if I accidentally delete a critical file and I don't figure it out for a week, I'll still be able to recover it. smile
Posted By: Ira L Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 02:39 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower

I have an email into Other World Computing to see which external drive would be best for Time Machine.


What a coincidence. I just did the same and ended up with a "Mercury On-the-Go Pro". This drive has two advantages, from my perspective: 1.) it is USB 3.0 capable, which the new MacBooks can handle, and is quite a fast connection; 2.) it comes with a way cool carrying case that holds the little drive and the USB cable. smirk The whole package is quite small (about 4"x6"x2") and lightweight, so if you had to take it with you, it would not be too much of a burden.
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 03:24 PM
You want portable? You want small? Then, as I noted earlier, check out ...

Western Digital My Passport Essential SE – 1 TB

Interface – USB 3.0 (backward compatible with USB 2.0)

Data transfer rate: Up to 480 Mb/s in USB 2.0 mode or up to 5 Gb/s in USB 3.0 mode

Dimensions –
Height: 0.70 in (18 mm)
Depth: 4.30 in (110 mm)
Width: 3.20 in (83 mm)
Weight: 7.2 oz (200 g)
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 03:59 PM
Ira: I looked up what you bought and it was expensive. Is that what I can expect to pay on the average for an external hard drive? I still have to pay for my Apple Care Contract. Boo!!

Rita
Posted By: Virtual1 Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 04:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Ira L
So even if your hard drive dies and you can't access the Recovery partition (automatically created and present on new computers or when you install 10.7 or above) and you are forced to put in a brand new hard drive, many of your apps and System are accessible.

So when you replace the dead hard drive in your computer with a freshly formatted drive.... you just boot off.... what exactly? to begin the reinstallation process? Unless it can boot off the app store wink
Posted By: alternaut Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 04:23 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Is that what I can expect to pay on the average for an external hard drive?

No, check out the OWC Mercury Elite Pro for instance. You can get 3TB for less than $300. The smaller sized drive Ira purchased commands a premium price. Note, however, that most external drives would require something like an Airport Express or Extreme to hook up to for wireless access.
As to drives with multiple port types* like the Elite Pro, I prefer to pay a bit extra for them. Should one konk out, you still have alternative connection options, provided your Mac offers them as well.

*) the OWC Mercury Elite Pro doesn't yet sport a USB-3 port, but that may change before long.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 04:28 PM
$300 is a big deal to me. It kind of makes me angry when I now know that I can't have an install disk, but have to purchase an expensive (a relative term) external drive to be able to protect my stuff. frown

Rita

Posted By: alternaut Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 05:31 PM
I understand that the extra expense can be a problem. I just wanted to point out that you can get more hard disk space-bang for your buck than with specialized mini-drives for laptops. That said, the 3TB drive I mentioned happens to be the best deal of the series at $92 per TB, even though you might do with a smaller drive. Also note that it may pay to budget for a backup drive etc. when looking for a new computer, especially if your work is worth something to you and any loss could have serious consequences in terms of money or time.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 05:52 PM
Thank you. I don't know how much I would need, as I don't really understand the Time Machine, etc. What I do know is that I've had my iBook G4 for a little over six years, and I still have 41 GB of free space out of the 55.7 GB hard drive. Does that give you an idea of what I may need? My usage hasn't increased much since then that I know of.

Rita


Originally Posted By: alternaut
I understand that the extra expense can be a problem. I just wanted to point out that you can get more hard disk space-bang for your buck than specialized mini-drives for laptops. That said, the 3TB drive I mentioned happens to be the best deal of the series at $92 per TB, even though you might do with a smaller drive.
Posted By: alternaut Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 07:02 PM
To estimate the space needed on a Time Machine drive you could start with the basic OS install you start out with on your Mac, and add to that the data you move to it now plus expect to add later. Since the TM allows you to store multiple versions of whatever you have on your Mac, you'd have to accommodate that too, at least to some extent. You should also know that when a TM drive gets full, TM will start deleting the oldest data to make room for the new.

In summary, the size of a TM hard disk would amount to the used space on your Mac HD you begin with, plus a (judicious) multiple of the space your data takes up (or likely will take up). So, if for example the OS measures 10GB and your data too, you'd need at least 20 GB, but probably more like 40-60GB. As it's getting hard to find HDs smaller than 150GB or so (excluding SSDs), you could start with one of those, and shop around for reliability, price and perhaps variables like multiple port options. As it happens, the price range of such drives start at around $90 (like Ira's choice), so that seems like the bottom line unless you opt for a raw drive mechanism plus dock.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 07:14 PM
I just got an email from Other World Computing which stated:

"You want a drive at least as large or larger than the drive you are going to be using the Time Machine drive for." In my case, I think that's overkill, right? My Macbook holds 500 GB. I didn't quite understand all that you said, but as long as I get an external drive of at least 150 GB, I think I will be safe from what I've deduced. Also, if I get crazy with it, I can always buy a larger capacity hard drive.

Rita


Originally Posted By: alternaut
To estimate the space needed on a Time Machine drive you could start with the basic OS install you start out with on your Mac, and add to that the data you move to it now plus expect to add later. Since the TM allows you to store multiple versions of whatever you have on your Mac, you'd have to accommodate that too, at least to some extent. You should also know that when a TM drive gets full, TM will start deleting the oldest data to make room for the new.

In summary, the size of a TM hard disk would amount to the used space on your Mac HD you begin with, plus a (judicious) multiple of the space your data takes up (or likely will take up). So, if for example the OS measures 10GB and your data too, you'd need at least 20 GB, but probably more like 40-60GB. As it's getting hard to find HDs smaller than 150GB or so (excluding SSDs), you could start with one of those, and shop around for reliability, price and perhaps variables like multiple port options. As it happens, the price range of such drives start at around $90 (like Ira's choice), so that seems like the bottom line unless you opt for a raw drive mechanism plus dock.
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 07:16 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Thank you. I don't know how much I would need, ...

The rule is: Twice your hard drive's size. In my case 2 x 500GB = 1 TB. That's why among other reasons I chose the WD HD for backup.
Given the flooding in SE Asia and other issues, gone are the days of the reliable $60 HD; I paid $109 for mine. You might be able to find it for about the same via Amazon, Best Buy, etc.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 07:18 PM
Twice? Yikes! I think I will just not do this. smile

Rita
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 07:20 PM
Read my edit ... which I did while you were 'freaking out'. wink
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 07:26 PM
Thank you. Around $100.00 plus or minus is doable. Just any old external hard drive brand as long as it's compatible with Macbook Pro? Amazon is where I would prefer to buy it since it's more reasonable than the Other World place. Whew! I feel better.

Rita



Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Thank you. I don't know how much I would need, ...

The rule is: Twice your hard drive's size. In my case 2 x 500GB = 1 TB. That's why among other reasons I chose the WD HD for backup.
Given the flooding in SE Asia and other issues, gone are the days of the reliable $60 HD; I paid $109 for mine. You might be able to find it for about the same via Amazon, Best Buy, etc.
Posted By: tacit Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 07:26 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
$300 is a big deal to me. It kind of makes me angry when I now know that I can't have an install disk, but have to purchase an expensive (a relative term) external drive to be able to protect my stuff. frown

Rita



You have ALWAYS had to purchase an external hard drive to protect your stuff. If you don't have a backup, it's only a matter of time until you lose your stuff.

If you are seeing price quotes of $300 for an external USB hard drive, run! You can get a 1 TB hard drive on Amazon for about $80, and 500 GB hard drives can be had for about $65.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 07:46 PM
Now we're talkin'. smile



Originally Posted By: tacit
Originally Posted By: plantsower
$300 is a big deal to me. It kind of makes me angry when I now know that I can't have an install disk, but have to purchase an expensive (a relative term) external drive to be able to protect my stuff. frown

Rita



You have ALWAYS had to purchase an external hard drive to protect your stuff. If you don't have a backup, it's only a matter of time until you lose your stuff.

If you are seeing price quotes of $300 for an external USB hard drive, run! You can get a 1 TB hard drive on Amazon for about $80, and 500 GB hard drives can be had for about $65.
Posted By: Virtual1 Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: tacit
You have ALWAYS had to purchase an external hard drive to protect your stuff. If you don't have a backup, it's only a matter of time until you lose your stuff.


Or get a networked offsite arrangement, don't overlook that option.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 08:04 PM
What about one of these?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_p_72_0?rh=k%3Aexternal+hard+drive%2Cn%3A172282%2Cp_n_condition-type%3A2224371011%2Cp_72%3A1248879011&bbn=172282&sort=price&keywords=external+hard+drive&ie=UTF8&qid=1343076666&rnid=1248877011

or one of these?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_2?rh=k%3Aexternal+hard+drive%2Cn%3A172282%2Cp_n_condition-type%3A2224371011%2Cp_72%3A1248879011&page=2&bbn=172282&sort=price&keywords=external+hard+drive&ie=UTF8&qid=1343076679

Sorry, I don't know how to shorten url's.

Is there any advantage to a regular external hard drive as opposed to a portable one? I like the little ones (portable), but if they have to remain connected to the usb port, I guess a regular one with a cable would be better unless they are wireless.

Gosh this is so foreign to me. Can't wait until I know what I'm doing with this drive stuff. Does the cable usually come with the external drive?

Rita





Originally Posted By: plantsower
Now we're talkin'. smile



Originally Posted By: tacit
Originally Posted By: plantsower
$300 is a big deal to me. It kind of makes me angry when I now know that I can't have an install disk, but have to purchase an expensive (a relative term) external drive to be able to protect my stuff. frown

Rita



You have ALWAYS had to purchase an external hard drive to protect your stuff. If you don't have a backup, it's only a matter of time until you lose your stuff.

If you are seeing price quotes of $300 for an external USB hard drive, run! You can get a 1 TB hard drive on Amazon for about $80, and 500 GB hard drives can be had for about $65.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 08:12 PM
Again, I don't know what that means. confused Don't bother to explain. It will take you a lot of work and I still won't get it. smile

Rita



Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Originally Posted By: tacit
You have ALWAYS had to purchase an external hard drive to protect your stuff. If you don't have a backup, it's only a matter of time until you lose your stuff.


Or get a networked offsite arrangement, don't overlook that option.
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 08:42 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Gosh this is so foreign to me. Can't wait until I know what I'm doing with this drive stuff. Does the cable usually come with the external drive?

Join the club. I was in the same boat as you and went through the same gnashing of teeth and all the rest of it back in November.
Check out (ie, run through) the thread External hard drives for backup that was generated at that time. Many of your questions and concerns might be answered and allayed.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 08:47 PM
Thank you. I'll do that. smile Rita


Originally Posted By: grelber
Originally Posted By: plantsower
Gosh this is so foreign to me. Can't wait until I know what I'm doing with this drive stuff. Does the cable usually come with the external drive?

Join the club. I was in the same boat as you and went through the same gnashing of teeth and all the rest of it back in November.
Check out (ie, run through) the thread External hard drives for backup that was generated at that time. Many of your questions and concerns might be answered and allayed.
Posted By: cyn Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 10:18 PM
V1, your latest reply was detached from this thread and moved over to FineTunedMac Feedback: 'Watched Topic' problem
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/23/12 10:36 PM
Look what I found in the Time Machine info on Apple.com:

Note: Every available drive that can be used to store backups is listed. If you’ve partitioned a drive, the available partitions are listed. Time Machine can’t backup to an external drive that's connected to an AirPort Extreme, Time Capsule, or a drive formatted for Microsoft Windows (NTFS or FAT format).

I looked at system profiler, and it looks like I have Airport Extreme. So does that mean I can't use Time Machine? confused

Under Network wifi it says:

Interfaces:
en1:
Card Type: AirPort Extreme (0x14E4, 0xF5)

Now what?

Rita
Posted By: ganbustein Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 12:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
So when you replace the dead hard drive in your computer with a freshly formatted drive.... you just boot off.... what exactly? to begin the reinstallation process? Unless it can boot off the app store wink


If you have any disk that still has a "Recovery HD" partition on it, you can boot from that by holding down either the option key or ⌘R at startup. Once booted into Recovery HD, you have several options available to you, including:
  • Re-install Lion. (It will be downloaded from the internet.)
  • Restore from a Time Machine backup (no internet required)
  • Use Disk Utility to Verify/Repair any volume (or its permissions), to erase volumes, to repartition disks, and presumably (I haven't tested this) do an Apple Software Recovery (fancy name for sector-level clone) from any volume to any other.
  • Launch Safari, to access whatever web-based help-line you require.
  • Enter Terminal, to do low-level tasks. (But you have only a subset of the normal command-line tools at your disposal.)
Even if you don't have an available "Recovery HD", you can boot into any Time Machine backup produced by 10.7.2 or later, to get the same options. In particular, you can restore from that TM backup, without need to access the internet.

If you have neither a full bootable clone (from SuperDuper or CarbonCopyCloner, for example), nor a Time Machine backup, nor any Recovery HD partition, you still aren't completely out of options. You won't be able to recover your data, of course (surely no biggie given that you deemed your data too unimportant to bother backing up), but you can still at least re-install OS X, provided that your machine has "Lion Internet Recovery" in its firmware. (Any machine that shipped with Lion pre-installed came with LIR also pre-installed. Machines that shipped in the few months before Lion was released can install LIR as a firmware patch that Software Update will have told you about.)

As mentioned before, holding down ⌘R at startup makes the machine try to boot from a "Recovery HD" partition. Lion Internet Recovery kicks in if such a partition cannot be found: LIR opens an internet connection to Apple, downloads a copy of "Recovery HD", and boots off that. You will need both internet access and an Apple ID, both of which you can configure right there in the startup screen. Re-installing OS X installs the latest version you're entitled to. (You're entitled to whatever shipped on that particular machine, or to whatever version you purchased from the App Store with the given Apple ID. Plus any updates, of course.)
Posted By: ganbustein Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 12:26 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I looked at system profiler, and it looks like I have Airport Extreme. So does that mean I can't use Time Machine? confused

No. It only means that the TM backup disk can't be attached to the USB port of that Airport Extreme. You have to connect to it some other way.

You can still use a disk attached to any available USB, Firewire, or Thunderbolt port on your computer, or any disk shared from another Mac on the same local network using File Sharing (the other Mac must be running at least 10.5.6), or an XSAN. (If you don't know what an XSAN is, you don't have one.)
Posted By: cyn Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 12:41 AM
Rita, if you'd like to learn how to make short links for long URLs, go ahead and start a thread about that in FineTunedMac Feedback...we'll be happy to show you. smile
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 01:31 AM
Thank you for both of your posts. I understood most of it. smile Anyway, there was something you said I had to hold down to get to recovery disk but it looked like symbols, so I don't know what you were trying to say. Take a look. ......option key or ⌘R at startup.... What is that word between "or" and "at'?

Rita



Originally Posted By: ganbustein
Originally Posted By: plantsower
I looked at system profiler, and it looks like I have Airport Extreme. So does that mean I can't use Time Machine? confused

No. It only means that the TM backup disk can't be attached to the USB port of that Airport Extreme. You have to connect to it some other way.

You can still use a disk attached to any available USB, Firewire, or Thunderbolt port on your computer, or any disk shared from another Mac on the same local network using File Sharing (the other Mac must be running at least 10.5.6), or an XSAN. (If you don't know what an XSAN is, you don't have one.)
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 01:32 AM
OK. Thanks.


Originally Posted By: cyn
Rita, if you'd like to learn how to make short links for long URLs, go ahead and start a thread about that in FineTunedMac Feedback...we'll be happy to show you. smile
Posted By: joemikeb Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 01:16 PM
Quote:
You want a drive at least as large or larger than the drive you are going to be using the Time Machine drive for." In my case, I think that's overkill, right? My Macbook holds 500 GB. I didn't quite understand all that you said, but as long as I get an external drive of at least 150 GB, I think I will be safe from what I've deduced. Also, if I get crazy with it, I can always buy a larger capacity hard drive.

That is the standard advice for Time Machine drives straight from Apple. I have used Time Machine since it was first available and IMO that is good advice. While you have never had a drive failure, hard drives are the single most failure prone part of any computer system. Tacit was right on in his previous post in this thread where he said...

Originally Posted By: tacit
There are two kinds of computer users in the world: those who have experienced a catastrophic loss of their hard drive, and those who will

It is not a matter of IF you will have a hard drive failure — it is a question of WHEN.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 03:11 PM
Oh, so even though I may never use nearly 500 GB, if my hard drive fails, I will be able to replace the whole 500GB of space if I have at least that much in my external drive? If so, then that makes sense.


Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Quote:
You want a drive at least as large or larger than the drive you are going to be using the Time Machine drive for." In my case, I think that's overkill, right? My Macbook holds 500 GB. I didn't quite understand all that you said, but as long as I get an external drive of at least 150 GB, I think I will be safe from what I've deduced. Also, if I get crazy with it, I can always buy a larger capacity hard drive.

That is the standard advice for Time Machine drives straight from Apple. I have used Time Machine since it was first available and IMO that is good advice. While you have never had a drive failure, hard drives are the single most failure prone part of any computer system. Tacit was right on in his previous post in this thread where he said...

Originally Posted By: tacit
There are two kinds of computer users in the world: those who have experienced a catastrophic loss of their hard drive, and those who will

It is not a matter of IF you will have a hard drive failure — it is a question of WHEN.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 03:45 PM
Originally Posted By: plantsowner
Oh, so even though I may never use nearly 500 GB, if my hard drive fails, I will be able to replace the whole 500GB of space if I have at least that much in my external drive? If so, then that makes sense.

Initially the size of a Time Machine backup will be smaller than the space occupied on the drive you are backing up. However, over time as files are changed and modified the size of the backup set will grow until it eventually completely fills the Time Machine drive at which point Time Machine will start dropping the oldest files or versions of files off of the drive. How long this will take depends on:
  • The size of the changed files (a few very large files that change frequently can fill the Time Machine drive very quickly.
  • how volitile the files on your system are. Every time a file is modified it gets backed up, or at least if the file has changed within the past hour it gets backed up
    • NOTE: frequently changing system files such as swap files, are automatically exempted from a Time Machine backup.
  • In general, Time Machine backups are pretty efficient in the use of disk space.

So if your drive fails you will be able to restore from the last backup before the drive failed (generally one hour or less before the failure) or you can go back in time your system's history, even back to a previous version or update of the operating system. More commonly, if you accidentally delete a file, or somehow a file becomes damaged, you can go back hours, days, months of even years to recover it.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 04:28 PM
One more question: If the drive fails, do you work off of the external drive from then on, or do you have the hard drive replaced?

Rita




Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsowner
Oh, so even though I may never use nearly 500 GB, if my hard drive fails, I will be able to replace the whole 500GB of space if I have at least that much in my external drive? If so, then that makes sense.

Initially the size of a Time Machine backup will be smaller than the space occupied on the drive you are backing up. However, over time as files are changed and modified the size of the backup set will grow until it eventually completely fills the Time Machine drive at which point Time Machine will start dropping the oldest files or versions of files off of the drive. How long this will take depends on:
  • The size of the changed files (a few very large files that change frequently can fill the Time Machine drive very quickly.
  • how volitile the files on your system are. Every time a file is modified it gets backed up, or at least if the file has changed within the past hour it gets backed up
    • NOTE: frequently changing system files such as swap files, are automatically exempted from a Time Machine backup.
  • In general, Time Machine backups are pretty efficient in the use of disk space.

So if your drive fails you will be able to restore from the last backup before the drive failed (generally one hour or less before the failure) or you can go back in time your system's history, even back to a previous version or update of the operating system. More commonly, if you accidentally delete a file, or somehow a file becomes damaged, you can go back hours, days, months of even years to recover it.
Posted By: Ira L Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 04:42 PM
I'm not sure what you are looking at, but I paid $117.99, with free shipping, for a 500GB On-the-Go.

I got 500GB since this was for my Air which has a 128GB flash drive.
Posted By: Ira L Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 04:45 PM
Rita--

Just to make sure you get my reply, I will respond to your post also in case you have this monitored, which I just similarly posted elsewhere:

I paid $117.99 with free shipping for 500 GB.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 04:52 PM
Got both of your messages on this. My question was since I don't take my computer many places, would it be better to get a regular external hard drive rather than an on-the-go type? I'm picturing the on-the-go type as attached to the hip of my Mac without a cord. I picture the regular one with some type of cable.

If the cable is long enough to let my external hard drive sit on the floor, it won't be in my way. Is that possible? Do the cables come with the hard drives?

Where did you get your $117.00 drive?

Oh, this learning curve!!!

Rita

Originally Posted By: Ira L
I'm not sure what you are looking at, but I paid $117.99, with free shipping, for a 500GB On-the-Go.

I got 500GB since this was for my Air which has a 128GB flash drive.
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 04:56 PM
Don't nobody read my posts?! tongue wink
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 05:02 PM
I do. Did I miss something? I went to that link about hard drives that you gave me. But, I still have questions. Rita


Originally Posted By: grelber
Don't nobody read my posts?! tongue wink
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 05:10 PM
Not you (but others).
But as I noted, small and portable and cheap would be the WD drive I provided stats on. USB cable included.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 05:49 PM
Okay, then. Now that I've digested what you said, it sounds pretty good. Small, 1 TB (nice), cable included. Works with Time Machine. What's not to love? I'll wait to see if anyone has any dire warnings about this, and then make my decision. I know everyone has their preferences. But at this point, this sounds good to me and cheap!!

Thank you.

Rita


Originally Posted By: grelber
Not you (but others).
But as I noted, small and portable and cheap would be the WD drive I provided stats on. USB cable included.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 05:59 PM
Is this what you got or something close? I can't seem to find one for $60.00. But, maybe you didn't get it on Amazon or got it awhile back. Huh?

Rita

Western Digital Passport - Amazon
Posted By: tacit Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 08:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Virtual1
Or get a networked offsite arrangement, don't overlook that option.


I don't overlook that option--I just don't trust it.

There are a number of problems with using a network for your main or only backup system:

- You can't make a bootable clone of your system that way.

- Backup and restore of an entire hard drive can be a very time-consuming affair.

- Automated network backup software that runs in the background may back up system-related databases (for example, your Mail database) in an unstable state, for example while they're being written to, resulting in a potentially corrupt or incomplete backup.

- They require Internet access to work.

- Some Internet companies are now metering Internet access, charging for bandwidth used over a certain ceiling. Backing up a 500GB hard drive will most definitely cross that ceiling, potentially resulting in bandwidth charges that are as expensive as a new local hard drive would be.

- Server outages or problems may compromise the integrity and/or availability of your backup.

- Backup of sensitive data such as financial data, personal information, tax returns, photos, and so on may potentially make that information available to corrupt or inquisitive employees of the data backup company. (Even companies which provide encryption also say in their Ts and Cs that they have access to encrypted data.)

- If there is a hack attack against the backup company, your information on their servers may be compromised.

- The laws surrounding off-site backups entrusted to a third party are murky. For example, case law exists which holds that the government may subpoena your information from the backup company, and also bar the backup company from telling you that they have released your information.

- If a corrupt employee or a hacker does get access to your files, the contracts with off-site backup companies usually indemnify them against damages.

So as you can tell, I'm not keen on network backup services.
Posted By: grelber Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 09:30 PM
Mine is, as noted in a previous post, WD My Passport Essential SE 1 TB Portable Hard Drive, Model WDBACX0010BSL. It's silver (to match the trim on my iMac) and also comes in black (which might be cheaper).
Also, as noted earlier, it cost $109 at a Canadian electronics superstore (Future Shop) just after the SE Asian flooding (ie, when all the HD factories were destroyed or not producing product and prices were climbing day by day due to the shortage — prior to that the cost was ca $70, and a week or so later it was $20 more; the last time I looked it was back to ca $110).

Should you get this, do not install any software on the CD provided. Just plug it in and your Mac will ask if you want to use it for backup with Time Machine. Say yes, and let your Mac do its thing. (All that's in previous discussion too.)
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/24/12 09:57 PM
Hey, quit pointing it out that it was all in the previous discussion. You're making me feel embarrassed..... blush as I should! LOL! I'm kind of overwhelmed with all the new info. I'll look for that model number at Amazon and maybe a few other places now. Thanks for the tip about not installing any of the software. I am sure I would have been confused when that option came up.
Rita


Originally Posted By: grelber
Mine is, as noted in a previous post, WD My Passport Essential SE 1 TB Portable Hard Drive, Model WDBACX0010BSL. It's silver (to match the trim on my iMac) and also comes in black (which might be cheaper).
Also, as noted earlier, it cost $109 at a Canadian electronics superstore (Future Shop) just after the SE Asian flooding (ie, when all the HD factories were destroyed or not producing product and prices were climbing day by day due to the shortage — prior to that the cost was ca $70).

Should you get this, do not install any software on the CD provided. Just plug it in and your Mac will ask if you want to use it for backup with Time Machine. Say yes, and let your Mac do its thing. (All that's in previous discussion too.)
Posted By: joemikeb Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/25/12 01:48 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsowner
One more question: If the drive fails, do you work off of the external drive from then on, or do you have the hard drive replaced?

Although it would be possible to have a bootable image or partition on the Time Machine drive it is usually NOT a bootable drive nor or the files in the Time Capsule directly usable. (You do not really need to know this technicality, but FWIW Time Machine backups are physically stored in a sparse image bundle — something like a .dmg file on the host disk drive.)

In the worst case scenario of a complete mechanical HD failure you would replace, or have Applecare replace, the failed drive in your MacBook and then restore all your applications and files from your Time Machine backup.

A more likely scenario would be a failure that trashed the volume structure on your boot drive rather than a complete mechanical failure. In that case you would reboot while holding down the Option key and select the Recovery HD partition Lion automatically puts on each bootable drive. From there you can run Disk Utility and repair or erase the failed volume and then restore the lost system and data files from the Time Machine volume.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/25/12 03:14 AM
Oh, okay. Thank you. Now I'll know what to do if and when....

Rita


Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: plantsowner
One more question: If the drive fails, do you work off of the external drive from then on, or do you have the hard drive replaced?

Although it would be possible to have a bootable image or partition on the Time Machine drive it is usually NOT a bootable drive nor or the files in the Time Capsule directly usable. (You do not really need to know this technicality, but FWIW Time Machine backups are physically stored in a sparse image bundle — something like a .dmg file on the host disk drive.)

In the worst case scenario of a complete mechanical HD failure you would replace, or have Applecare replace, the failed drive in your MacBook and then restore all your applications and files from your Time Machine backup.

A more likely scenario would be a failure that trashed the volume structure on your boot drive rather than a complete mechanical failure. In that case you would reboot while holding down the Option key and select the Recovery HD partition Lion automatically puts on each bootable drive. From there you can run Disk Utility and repair or erase the failed volume and then restore the lost system and data files from the Time Machine volume.
Posted By: ganbustein Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/25/12 09:43 AM
Originally Posted By: plantsower
there was something you said I had to hold down to get to recovery disk but it looked like symbols, so I don't know what you were trying to say. Take a look. ......option key or ⌘R at startup.... What is that word between "or" and "at'?

It's "command" R, where "command" is the cloverleaf symbol you see next to the word "command" on the keys on either side of the spacebar.

The "cloverleaf" (of the freeway variety, not the shamrock variety) is actually the Unicode "PLACE OF INTEREST SIGN". Your signature says you're running Safari on OS X, which should have no trouble properly displaying Unicode symbols. Is there something odd about your browser setup that's not reflected in your signature?

In Safari, look at the View->Text Encoding menu. Select "Default" if it isn't already checked, then reload the page and see if things look better.

You should see:

⌘ is the command symbol (cloverleaf)
⌥ is the option symbol
⇧ is the shift symbol (a hollow up-pointing arrow)
→ is a thin right-pointing arrow, useful for expressing hierarchical selections

(For example, instead of writing View->Text Encoding, I'd usually write View→Text Encoding, not only because the true arrow looks a little nicer, but because faking the arrow with hyphen-greater can leave you with a line break between - and >, which is just plain ugly. Not the program's fault; the semantic meaning of hyphen is "if you need to put in a line break, here's a good place to do it.")
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/25/12 03:35 PM
Safari is already set at the text encoding default. I just see all those letters and symbols you put in and didn't understand what they meant. Thanks for the explanation.

You said this is what I should see? I see it now. But before it was just jumbled letters, etc.


⌘ is the command symbol (cloverleaf)
⌥ is the option symbol
⇧ is the shift symbol (a hollow up-pointing arrow)
→ is a thin right-pointing arrow, useful for expressing hierarchical selections


Rita


Originally Posted By: ganbustein
Originally Posted By: plantsower
there was something you said I had to hold down to get to recovery disk but it looked like symbols, so I don't know what you were trying to say. Take a look. ......option key or ⌘R at startup.... What is that word between "or" and "at'?

It's "command" R, where "command" is the cloverleaf symbol you see next to the word "command" on the keys on either side of the spacebar.

The "cloverleaf" (of the freeway variety, not the shamrock variety) is actually the Unicode "PLACE OF INTEREST SIGN". Your signature says you're running Safari on OS X, which should have no trouble properly displaying Unicode symbols. Is there something odd about your browser setup that's not reflected in your signature?

In Safari, look at the View->Text Encoding menu. Select "Default" if it isn't already checked, then reload the page and see if things look better.

You should see:

⌘ is the command symbol (cloverleaf)
⌥ is the option symbol
⇧ is the shift symbol (a hollow up-pointing arrow)
→ is a thin right-pointing arrow, useful for expressing hierarchical selections

(For example, instead of writing View->Text Encoding, I'd usually write View→Text Encoding, not only because the true arrow looks a little nicer, but because faking the arrow with hyphen-greater can leave you with a line break between - and >, which is just plain ugly. Not the program's fault; the semantic meaning of hyphen is "if you need to put in a line break, here's a good place to do it.")
Posted By: Ira L Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/25/12 05:17 PM
Rita--

I purchased it from Other World Computing, which was the source you first contacted mentioned in your post.

Yes, it comes with a USB 3.0 cable, and it is just like a "regular external hard drive", just more compact. Depending on the height of your table, the cable may be long enough to set up as you described.
Posted By: plantsower Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/25/12 09:59 PM
Right. Thank you, Ira.

Rita


Originally Posted By: Ira L
Rita--

I purchased it from Other World Computing, which was the source you first contacted mentioned in your post.

Yes, it comes with a USB 3.0 cable, and it is just like a "regular external hard drive", just more compact. Depending on the height of your table, the cable may be long enough to set up as you described.
Posted By: artie505 Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/27/12 06:31 AM
> Joe can backup the most critical data files to iCloud and assuming the HD has not failed completely can repair the volume structure on the HD, reinstall Lion (or Mountain Lion) and all the apps purchased through the app store from anywhere there is a high speed internet connection. So when on the road Joe can leave the Time Machine drive behind.

Yes, Joe can leave his Time Machine drive behind, but only if his destination is high-speed Internet enabled, and there is still a significant portion of the world that is not, as there are a significant number of destinations that are not. (Ref. Internet Access in U.S. Homes Increase, Yet Digital Divide Persists and, more recently, South Korea hits 100% mark in wireless broadband.)

And adding insult to injury...

Originally Posted By: David Pogue
Keep in mind, too, that Mountain Lion is available exclusively as a download. This time, Apple isn’t even selling the software on a USB stick as a fallback. That’s a big “tough rocks” to people who don’t have high-speed Internet (yes, they still exist).

(I'm particularly pleased with the realistically, in my opinion, anyhow, negative attitude I've seen Pogue direct at Apple recently.)
Posted By: artie505 Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/27/12 07:01 AM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
Apple's having given us Time Machine doesn't negate the fact that an indeterminate percentage of the world's current and potential Mac users, you (Addendum: grelber), as has been already been noted, included, has been disenfranchised and/or inconvenienced and/or forced to spend extra money for something that may, in some circumstances, be considered useless.

I seem to recall that same thing being said when Apple abandoned the floppy disk drive, OS 9, the Motorola 68000 series processors, SCSI, the PowerPC, etc. Unlike Microsoft, Apple has never clung to outdated technologies and Apple users have adapted to the changes. Watch for near future releases without Firewire, SATA, or rotating hard drives. They have to be on the list of soon to be obsolete technologies.

I'm not bemoaning the fact that new technology replaces old technology (although I do bemoan the cost of new, expensive toys far exceeding my ability to indulge in them frown  ), I'm bemoaning Apple's approach to implementing its new technology...disenfranchising the not-insignificant portion of the world that hasn't got access to high-speed Internet, by way of example, not to mention producing bottom-of-the-line machines with top-of-the-line-technology - Thunderbolt - that is useless without the expenditure of an additional several hundred dollars for an "enabler." I note that Apple, itself, has realized that that was a mistake, as demonstrated by its much-belated realization that Thunderbolt to Gigabit Ethernet and Thunderbolt to Firewire Adapters are necessary. (I'm amazed that it took them so long to realize the necessity that, as of this writing, Firewire adapters are still not available.)

No, what I'm bemoaning is the fact that Apple is in the process of deprecating the world as we know it in favor of some brave new world envisioned by Steve Jobs...long before its time.
Posted By: artie505 Re: My New MacBook Pro - 07/27/12 07:54 AM
Originally Posted By: tacit
Originally Posted By: artie505
Apple's having given us Time Machine doesn't negate the fact that an indeterminate percentage of the world's current and potential Mac users, you (Addendum: grelber), as has been already been noted, included, has been disenfranchised and/or inconvenienced and/or forced to spend extra money for something that may, in some circumstances, be considered useless.

I've been a computer owner since 1977, when I got my first Radio Shack TRS-80, and if there's one thing I've learned in that time it's that a backup hard drive is *never* useless.

There are two kinds of computer users in the world: those who have experienced a catastrophic loss of their hard drive, and those who will. Anyone on any computer of any kind whatsoever needs to understand that if your data are important to you, a backup system is not optional. You *will* lose data if you don't have one; it's only a matter of time.

I actually keep two--one that I do frequent backups onto, so that if my hard drive takes a header I'll never lose more than a day or two's work; and one that I do less frequent backups onto, so that if I accidentally delete a critical file and I don't figure it out for a week, I'll still be able to recover it. smile

You're most assuredly correct about the need for backups, but what needs to be backed up is purely subjective; there are some, likely many, users who can back up everything they see as "precious" to a single CD and live very happily, thank you, with neither Time Machine nor a bootable backup volume, gamblers, albeit low-risk, that they are.
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