Since my iMac came to me without media (install or any other kind of disks) and with 10.7 installed (the latter updated to 10.7.1), to be on the safe side, how would I create a bootable install disk from what is being called a recovery partition (or, alternatively, a restore partition) which ostensibly holds the information?
[I need any description of how to go about this in plain English so that I might have a ghost of a chance of actually accomplishing such a task.]

This iMac has an integral CD/DVD burner (or so I'm told).

At this point in time I'm not sure if you can. AFAICT, current options include burning the Lion Installer to DVD, or installing it on a HD, USB stick or SD card as described in the following articles:

- How to make a bootable Lion install disc or drive
- Lion DiskMaker

However, the methods described there make use of the InstallESD.dmg file present in a standard Lion Installer download, and therein lies the rub: it's not clear to me whether this file is present on a Mac that shipped with Lion, like your iMac, but I doubt it. If it isn't, and Apple allows you to download a copy for free (Lion Internet Recovery?*), you sure won't enjoy your dialup connection (if it works at all)...

*) In your case Apple may refer you to its Lion-on-a-stick option.

UPDATE: apparently you can make such a disk with the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant.

There are several features in OS X 10.7 that make a bootable backup disk somewhat redundant including:

1. The bootable "Recovery HD" that is installed on every Lion boot disk (Reboot while holding down command+R)
2. Time Machine
3. The Apple App Store

You can boot from the Recovery HD as mentioned and do a full and complete restore of your system from any given hour, day, week, or month since you activated the Time Machine backups or you can go to the App Store and re-download and install OS X — which will be the current version at this unique point in time. This, of course, will not help in the event of a mechanical failure of your hard drive.

I suspect it is for that reason that some users feel uncomfortable without a bootable hard copy of their OS. In that case I can suggest three options in roughly the order of their popularity:

1. A clone of your entire system on an external hard drive using Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper. Both can be used free in their simplest version which is really all you need. The merits of both have been discussed at length but IMHO it mostly boil down to which user interface you prefer.
2. Keeping a bootable copy of Lion on an external hard drive along with one or more volume testing and recovery apps such as Drive Genius, TechTool Pro, or Diskwarrior. Each of these cost around $90 but most will tell you having one or more of these is essential due to the very weak capabilities of Disk Utility. You would still need the Time Machine backup for recovery.
3. A bootable recovery DVD. For instructions on doing that see this Apple Knowledge Base article. You would still want to have the Time Machine backup to recover your personal data files, settings, etc.

FWIW, I have a Time Machine backup and options 1, 2, and 3 but if I had to limit it to a single option it would probably be option 2. 😄

The gist of the discussion is that I won't have a back-up disk, since I don't understand the suggestions for action given.

I also read the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant article and couldn't make head or tail of it.

What is Time Machine?

Any back-up I might do, as I have for years, is just to burn everything on a CD from time to time. (I used Toast Titanium with my old iMac, but I'm supposing I could use this machine for such once I figure out how to burn a CD with it.)

Cloning is a backup strategy that lets you make a complete copy of your hard drive to another hard drive. In OS 9, you could do that by drag-and-drop but it is not possible in OS X because there are too many hidden files that need to be copied. I have the luxury of being able to install extra drives in my Mac Pro but you can use an external hard drive connected via either Firewire or USB.

You can actually boot the computer from a cloned drive and use it as if it were your internal drive. I have Disk Warrior installed on my main drive and, of course, it got cloned to the other drive. When I want to use it on the main drive, I can insert the DW CD and wait about 10 minutes to have it boot the computer, or I can boot from the clone in 40 seconds. If my main drive crashes, I can boot from the clone and still use the computer.

My cloning app of choice is SuperDuper but another good option is Carbon Copy Cloner. The initial clone (copying the entire drive) can take 45 minutes or longer but SD allows you to make incremental clones (copying only those files that have changed since the last clone). This takes a fraction of the time (in my case, about 10 minutes). I run SD once a week or so. FYI, you'll have to buy a license in order to unlock SD's incremental cloning capability. If you don't pay the fee, you can still use it to make complete clones but you'll have to erase the drive each time and start from scratch. I can't comment about CCC because I haven't used it in years, but SD's interface is very friendly.

Time Machine is an Apple program that is built into the OS. For complete information, read Mac 101: Time Machine. You cannot boot the computer from a Time Machine backup but you can revert to previous versions of files (and TM makes them automatically). Clones are one-trick ponies in that regard; they only have the files from your most recent clones. If I need, for example, a file that I made a month ago (and I had since deleted it), I can get it from my Time Machine backup but not from the clone that I just made. The nice thing about TM is that you don't have to do anything after it's set up; it does it all for you. One of my internal drives is dedicated to TM.

Thanks (once again) for your heroic efforts to allow me to understand what's going on.

But while I comprehend the grammatical constructions of your comments, their semantic content is lost on me.

I read "Mac 101: Time Machine" and can make little if any sense of it either. It makes reference (without definition) to things such as Time Capsule, describes procedures which would take a person with a degree in computer science to understand, and so on.

As I've noted in the Lounge, I'm bowing out. I'll use the machine until it seizes up or craps out on me and then drop it in the recycling bin.

I actually find all of these options unsatisfactory.

Option #1 assumes the hard drive still works. A recovery partition is utterly useless in the face of a hard drive failure, as I discussed in Virtual1's thread. Sure, you can buy a new hard drive to replace the one that failed...

...but then you have no OS media and so no way to reinstall.

Option 2 requires that every computer user go out and purchase a second hard drive to use as the Time Machine backup. And even then, if your primary hard drive fails, you're just as buggered as you re in Option 1--ok, so you have this wonderful non-bootable Time Machine backup. So what? What do you do now? Without install media, you can't reinstall the operating system on your computer so you can't use the Time Machine backup.

Option 3 doesn't help at all. If you can't get an operating system onto your computer, you can't use the App Store.

So, if your hard drive fails, and you don't have installation media...now what?

I've noticed this thread and in my brain's background processor had already prepared a response but someone else beat me to it. Then, being fascinated (in a horrible way) with your plight, I just sat down and pretended to buy a brand new iMac from Apple directly.

I wondered how long it would take me to find out what OS they're pre-loading on brand new Macs, now.

I'm pretty nifty with research, it's part of my job. I can rapid-read a whole page of marketing blah and find the part I want to click on. I can scroll up and down and remember what I've already read.

This one, though, had me somewhat askance. It took 5 times longer than it should have, to find out exactly which OS, new Macs ship with. IMO it's well hidden. IMO someone who regards themselves as a good researcher like me, could buy a new Mac, now, and then find that they've bought a LION one. With all attendant grief as in this thread.

I am looking at this entire scenario with a squinty eye (because of Apple's new OS pre-loaded configuration) and am very glad indeed that I'm not in that boat. Therefore, I owe some apologies to grelber.

Having said all that, I would reiterate my suggestion that he buy himself a Snow Leopard license, instal that on his new Mac and breathe again.

I also have to say that this is terrible PR for Lion, and their crazy decision to make it downloadable-only, if anyone wants to upgrade to it. Upgraders somehow are supposed to know in advance to save the Installation disk image for a bootable back-up. How intuitive is that?

It's been an education. Apologies again to grelber. But you are handicapped with dial-up which presumably limits your internet research........... anyway enough said.

I must confess that I'm rather disappointed with the lack of effort you seem to be willing to invest in dealing with your own question. In the course of answering it I alone spent several times the time needed to do what you're asking: making a bootable Lion backup disk. And then I'm not even talking about the other respondents.

Let's briefly go through the solution I offered, the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant. The KB article linked to clearly states that you'd need
(1) a Mac with a Lion Restore HD,
(2) an external USB hard drive or thumb drive (min. 1GB),
(3) a copy of Lion Recovery Disk Assistant (appr. 1MB download).

What don't you get about that?

You've got (1), I suggest you get a 2-4GB thumb drive for (2), and even on your dialup the LRDA (3) should download pretty quickly.
Why the thumb drive? It will be much faster than the DVD you wanted to go for, is easier to update, handy and cheap ($5-10).

Next you plug in that thumb drive, run LRDA, select the thumb drive as target, follow the remaining screen instructions, and presto!, done.

And then you want to bow out? I don't get that...

Burn LION (in Applications folder) to a DVD disc. See if what you get is usable to reboot the computer.

It may not be perfect, but this may give you enough to work with should your computer crash (i.e. access to disk utility for repairs, etc.).

If this does not work, the most you are out is the cost of a disc (and your time).




https://support.apple.com/kb/ht1479

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?path=mac/10.4/en/mh854.html

"Upgraders somehow are supposed to know in advance to save the Installation disk image for a bootable back-up."


Clarification: When I downloaded LION a couple days after it hit the market, I was ASKED during the process if I wanted to make a backup disc copy. I selected YES, inserted a disc, and continued through the procedures.

If one chooses to "skip this step" when asked, the chance to do so at that time is lost.

P.S. A DMG was also part of that initial download. Although I have not tried to burn a disc from that DMG - don't need a second one - I presume that it is possible.

Slightly off topic, but can Snow Leopard be installed on a "new" mac with Lion pre-installed?
If so I have prematurely invested in a new (re-furbished) MacBook Pro with S/L pre-installed, having understood that the aforementioned was not possible.
In other words I was contemplating getting a MacBook Pro in the future, but did not want to risk leaving it so late that Lion would be pre-installed.
Are you seeing a pattern - I do/did not want to "go Lion" yet for various reasons.
I must confess though that I am delighted with my MacBook Pro running Snow Leopard.
Regards. Mike

UPDATE:

Burned a DVD of LION. Couldn't be simpler than this.

1. Go to APPLICATIONS FOLDER and find icon named INSTALL MAC OSX LION;

2. Left-click to highlight and Right-click on icon;

3. Select BURN TO DISC (used a Memorex DVD+RDL blank disc);

Insert disc and away you go. Took about 7 minutes to burn.

4. Ejected disc . . . inserted again to test. Typical procedure instructions appeared. Looks like it would work (if I wished to continue installing).

TA! DA!

GENERALLY . . . one cannot overwrite an older version (SNOW LEOPARD) on a newer one (LION).

But don't give up just yet. It seems to me that this question was raised before in this forum and someone WAS able to provide a work-a-round option.

So . . . someone may chime in again.

Thanks for you response.
Perversely and selfishly I hope there is/was no "work-around option" as it is too late for me.
Not really, as I'm sure it would appeal to a great number of people who maybe wanted to get a new Mac but were not "ready" for Lion.
Regards. Mike

Here is a link that might give some insight into the matter:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3191730?start=0&tstart=0


P.S. I am quite happy with the switch to LION. A few minor applications were not compatible with LION as they were with SNOW LEOPARD . . . but not a big deal for me. Also, I do not use Rosetta, so the loss of that feature did not affect me directly.

Grelber didn't download it.
He has no disk image.
He bought a new Mac with Lion already installed.

Sorry you didn't get that bit before you posted.

Thanks again for responding, but I think I 'Googled" that link when I was trying to find out for myself and I was not confident that it would actually be successful on a Lion pre-installed Mac.
Regards. Mike

I really fail to see what all the fuss is about. If you have a working Intel Mac, and a bootable system disk of a Mac operating system 10.*, then you can instal it on that Mac regardless of what operating system was already there.

Just stick it in and it will lead you onwards. If that means erase disk and instal, ok. You'll still have a fully functioning Mac afterwards, with the new OS on it.

Of course, anyone sensible would have copied all their data files to a removable/another hard disk media before starting this operation.

sigh.

Alternatively . . . see my later post at 2:52 today.

It provides another option to the DMG method . . . presuming that a LION icon of some sort exists somewhere on the computer for the pre-installed version of the LION OSX (in the applications folder or moved??).

Not necessarily so. The hang-ups are Mac model-specific hardware drivers. Because of this, as mentioned before in this thread, you generally cannot install an older version of Mac OS X on a Mac that shipped with a newer one. This doesn't appear to apply to certain current Mac models shipping with Lion, but that's a rare exception.

" . . . and a bootable system disk of a Mac operating system 10.*, then you can instal it on that Mac regardless of what operating system was already there."


P.S. I don't think it is possible to load an OS disc designed for use with a PPC (e.g. 10.4 TIGER) on an INTEL machine . . . but please correct me if I am wrong about this.

I can see your interest in this question, but please keep the thread on topic.

Don't sigh, please don't sigh as there's no need on my part, I'm fully backed up and running and not making a fuss.
But I'm still not 100% sure about S\L on a pre-installed Lion. But also I'm not terribly bothered as I am quite happy as I am.
Regards. Mike

Sorry.
I meant to apologise earlier on.
Regards. Mike

> UPDATE: apparently you can make such a disk with the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant.

If I understood what I read, the Lion Recovery Disk Assistant enables one to recreate (the) Lion Recovery (partition), presumably on a disc as well as on an HD, but that would still leave grelber in the position of having to d/l the 4(?)Gb Lion installer via a 56Kb modem.


If that's correct, it looks like Apple's thumb drive and either a CCC or SD clone are his only options.

Are you saying that Lion Recovery cannot (re)install Lion without an internet connection to download Lion?

Yep!

See OS X Lion: About Lion Recovery, "Requirements for reinstalling OS X Lion," specifically.

Hmmm, it sure looks like you're right. The articles I linked to above made it seem like Internet Recovery is an additional option rather than a required route to follow. If nothing else, this explains the size difference required for the Recovery disk (1GB) vs. the Lion download (4GB).

I now have to agree even more with tacit's earlier remark about the available alternatives for a bootable Lion backup disk being unsatisfactory, although I'd call it unbelievably stupid, not to put too fine a point on it. So it appears that a thumb drive is the solution after all, albeit the overly pricey Apple version...

And to conclude this episode, I have to apologize to Grelber, particularly if he figured out this particular limitation. On the positive side of things, that would mean that contrary to his claims he's too smart to throw in the towel.

I'd love to hear Apple's answer to the question, although I suspect it would be an incredulous "Well... Why haven't you got (read "bought") a Time Capsule?"

How about users doing a clean install of Lion, booting that installation into FW target disk mode, imaging it on another Mac, and burning the image to a disc?

That, together with creating a recovery disc, would, I think, give one a "full set."

If I understand you right, the whole thing is very simple. I made the install disk in 20 minutes using one-click free application Lion DiskMaker
http://blog.gete.net/lion-diskmaker-us/

It can also be done like here (already covered above)
http://www.informationweek.com/byte/howto/personal-tech/desktop-os/231002151

The only thing one needs is to have a copy of the installer on the hard drive.

P.S. Alternaut, I am sorry, did not see your first post where you covered this issue fully!

As I said above, therein lies the rub: grelber does not have the installer, only the installed OS as it came with his iMac. He does have dialup, so a 4GB download is cruel and unusual punishment.

Agree on this...

If he has an Apple Store nearby, he might have some luck talking the geniuses into giving him an installer copy on a USB drive or even allow him to use their broadband to download. Maybe it's wishful thinking...
Otherwise, after having shelled out more than a grand on an iMac, he probably should just bite the bullet and spend 70 more for their USB toy.

If the rules don't forbid, I can volunteer and send him my DVD copy. How's that? We are both legitimate users of Lion after all.

I read somewhere that one of the options Apple has offered non-broadband users is the opportunity to d/l Lion at an Apple Store, which, unfortunately, is of no benefit to most of the world. (Sorry...can't locate the article.)

Buying the thumb drive is, of course, an option, but Apple has got to do better than that... "It just works!" does not work if it requires one to pay extra for the privilege!!!

I can't help thinking, though, that it's very difficult to believe that Apple has overlooked/failed to provide for the situation under discussion.

From Apple - OS X Lion - Upgrade to Lion. Only from the Mac App Store.:

"If you don't have broadband access, you can visit any Apple Retail Store to get help with downloading."

Again, out of sheer curiosity I Googled and found this thread where other people (claim to) have installed Snow Leopard over Lion. (page 2 on that thread, msg 47)

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1104312

It's been pretty much a general rule with OS X that you can't boot a Mac from an OS X installer whose version predates the version with which the Mac shipped, but there have been exceptions, and the present instance appears to be one of them (although not necessarily in 100% of situations); Virtual1 mentioned it, although just in passing, here. (Note my comment re your situation in post #18241.) (Edit: That really applied to grelber.)

Note: And alternaut answered your question in post #18284 in this very thread.

Okeedoke Artie, I was only curious. I'm not in that situation since all these here Macs are on Snow Leopard and I have no intention whatsoever of upgrading to Lion for years. Everything works and the business runs on Snow Leopard Macs.

Lion? No thanks. Look at all the grief out there!

Interesting. But when a disk has an OS predating the one on the hard drive it still may be possible. The most salient example is Disk Warrior. These guys are never in a hurry to update the OS on their DVDs, yet their SL DVD that I just got from them boots up my MBP with Lion. True, it does not have an installer, but still...

The grief has been disproportionately blown up, IMHO. I see two gripes only: the browsers do not talk to the Keychain properly in terms of some passwords and proxy servers, and the PPC apps do not run any more. Other than that, no change. And one can always make the home folder's Library visible

Agreed.

I have no major beefs with LION whatsoever. There is always a period of adjustment and discovery for me . . . . even when I moved from Leopard to Snow Leopard. Just goes with the territory.

(However, there is a lot a fancy stuff out there to do on the Mac which, admittedly, I do not . . . so I would not encounter the frustrating issues that others are experiencing with those applications, etc.)

So far, I am a happy camper with LION. (Although I wish I could add more Visualizers which work with iTUNES and LION.)

The optimist in me figures that APPLE is working on any and all glitches, so reverting back to SNOW LEOPARD is not part of my plan.

One glitch is their stubborn desire to hide the home Library. I made it visible through Terminal thinking that it would be rock solid. However, I find it hidden again after 10.7.2 update was applied

So, grelber, my offer still stands and my contact e-mail is in my profile.

Good catch! For those who may not be in the know . . .

http://tarastips.net/2011/05/show-hidden-library-folder-in-mac-osx-lion/



Briefly: Copy chflags nohidden ~/Library and Paste into TERMINAL; hit RETURN

(i.e. find TERMINAL in the Utilities folder within the Applications folder)

Apples and oranges, of sorts. Obviously, if a(n Intel) Mac that shipped with let's say Tiger was upgraded to Lion, it would boot from all generic OS versions following the one it shipped with because they all contain the required hardware drivers. It doesn't work the other way around: no Mac shipping with Lion can boot from a Tiger OS disc, because the necessary hardware drivers did not yet exist when Tiger was released.

As to Alsoft's policy regarding updating the OS on bootable DiskWarrior discs, that's essentially governed by restrictions imposed by Apple regarding OS updates included with DiskWarrior. DW updaters typically use the OS version installed on the (required) original DW Installer disc to generate the updater disc. In contrast, DW upgrade discs are shipped with a current version of the OS. Depending on the availability of the system startup files required by new Mac models, you may not be able to boot such Macs with the then-current DW disc.

Re-think option 2. If you don't go out and buy an external disk for backup, you're eventually going to be screwed anyway. Not backing up is not a reasonable option.

What I did was use SuperDuper to clone the InstallESD.dmg image onto my TM backup. (When SuperDuper makes a clone, it will carefully step around any TM backup on the destination volume, leaving it unscathed. The result is a single volume that is both a TM backup and a Lion Install disk.)

That makes your TM backup bootable. It doesn't boot into your latest (or indeed, any) snapshot. It boots into the Lion installer. One of the install options is to recover from a TM backup.

I took the time to test this thoroughly. It can install Lion onto a blank disk, and then use Migration Assistant to recover user files. Or it can restore any particular TM snapshot onto any volume, even a blank one. If the snapshot you restore from was from when you were running Snow Leopard, it (the Lion installer!) will happily reinstall that copy of Snow Leopard. If the snapshot you restore from was from when you were running Lion, and you're restoring onto a blank volume, it'll happily carve out and initialize a matching Recovery HD partition adjacent to that volume. (And, if you're restoring Snow Leopard to a partition that already has Lion on it, it'll reclaim that Recovery HD partition, reabsorbing it into the now-Snow Leopard partition.

In short, it just works, doing whatever you want in the way you would expect it to work.

Now, admittedly, if your main drive has died, you won't be able to restore onto it. You'll have to buy a new drive to replace the dead one, but that's just the way it is. You can't really fault Apple for that.

And, the fact that you still can't just boot from your backup disk and be up and running, without the delay of restoring onto a new disk, is also to be expected, if you think about it. A bootable clone is a useful kind of backup to have, but you'd be insane to rely on that as your only backup. The moment you actually boot off your only backup, you have no backup, and running without a backup is just crazy. Even if you have a bootable backup, the only thing you're going to do with it in an emergency is to immediately clone it again, and we're talking about the same delay as if you restored from any other kind of backup.


But of course, you wouldn't rely on only one method. You'd use #1 and #2 and #3 and:

Option #4: Internet Recovery. If your machine shipped with Lion, then it has in firmware sufficient recovery logic to establish an internet connection and net-boot off a recovery partition on one of Apple's servers. From there, you can install the latest version of Lion, even onto a completely blank disk. It'll even initialize the disk for you, in case it's not already GPT/HFS+(Journaled), and re-create the Recovery HD partition, so you won't have to use Internet Recovery every time.

Good point!

The folks in that thread found a caveat in this command: chflags gets updated any time one updates OS, restarts or simply logs out; so the ~Library will become hidden again. The alternative is to put sudo with a space before that command and then go through admin password. Did not test it yet, so cannot tell whether this would stick.

> Re-think option 2. [....]

Excellent! Thanks. (Me, though, I'm gonna go the thumb drive route.)

> Option #4: Internet Recovery. If your machine shipped with Lion, then it has in firmware sufficient recovery logic to establish an internet connection and net-boot off a recovery partition on one of Apple's servers. From there, you can install the latest version of Lion, even onto a completely blank disk. It'll even initialize the disk for you, in case it's not already GPT/HFS+(Journaled), and re-create the Recovery HD partition, so you won't have to use Internet Recovery every time.

How do you access Internet Recovery (which sounds like the missing piece in the puzzle)?

Thanks for this brilliantly simple strategic tip!

For those upgrading to Lion via a new Mac, are there any issues you're aware of regarding acquisition of InstallESD.dmg? I note that as of mid-July, according to Dan Frakes, a volume created from the downloadable Lion installer "will not boot a 2011 Mac mini or 2011 MacBook Air, which ship with a newer version of Lion preinstalled."

Will the Mac App Store version of Lion continue to be simply 10.7, updatable via Software Update, or will it periodically be bumped up to a later point release, as with retail versions of a given reference release back in the days of physical OS X media?

> Will the Mac App Store version of Lion continue to be simply 10.7 [....]

I've read that the App Store version will be the current updated version...that if you think you may ever want to revert you'd better have some sort of plan in effect.

Sure. I agree with you, and I have external hard drives I back up to.

But I'm not an average user. You're not an average user. To an average user, what you've just said is "If your computer does not come with installation media, that means you need to buy another hard drive, then find disk cloning software and use it."

Yes, a backup hard disk is a good thing to have. No, a requirement to purchase and then learn how to use a backup disk and cloning software is not in my mind an acceptable substitute for shipping a computer with installation media.



Which is cool, for tech users who know the value of buying additional hard drives and understand cloning. I suspect that leaves out, at minimum, 80% of the computer using public.

If a person buys a computer, I believe that person should have the ability to start that computer in the event of a hard disk failure without resorting to additional expenditures, such as additional hard disks or a reliable broadband Internet connection. I personally find the industry practice of refusing to ship computers with installation media, first started by Dell and Gateway and now apparently picked up by Apple, quite disagreeable.

Very well put; I most wholeheartedly agree!!!

<Like>

A bit off-topic, perhaps, but totally pertinent... You've never told us how that Dell Inspiron episode ended.

Did they come through with media?

Yep. Apple updates. Right now the App store has Lion as of 10.7.2 -- just released.

" . . . chflags gets updated any time one updates OS, restarts or simply logs out; so the ~Library will become hidden again . . ."

FWIW: I have had this happen ONLY with the OS X update(s) and not when simply logging in/out OR during a re-start of the computer.

" . . . first started by Dell and Gateway and now apparently picked up by Apple, quite disagreeable . . .


Agreed. But this is The American Way of Capitalism i.e. If there is more money which can be made . . . (sarcasm intended)

I agree with your views. But the quoted sentence is unclear and so needs editing. If a computer has a hard disk failure, surely the owner is going to have to resort to "additional expenditures" -- a new hard disk.

Confirmed, against what the posters have alleged!

The same way you access Recovery HD: press command-R during startup. If the machine shipped after Lion was publicly available, and a Recovery HD partition cannot be found, the computer automatically does Internet Recovery instead.

From OS X Lion: About Lion Recovery:

this would be a great sticky post! It addresses the situation in a way that many could take advantage of.

a question though: could you do the same sort of clone with Carbon Copy Cloner?

Yes, that's exactly what I tell all my computer-buying friends, even the ones whose computers do come with installation media. I tell them that if they don't back up, they will lose everything they have on the computer. I enumerate all the things they have (photos, music, essays, PhD Theses, mail, art, etc., putting extra emphasis on those things that user does with their computer).

And then I tell them that, if they come to me asking how to recover something, I will ask where their backup is. I tell them in advance that if they don't have a backup, I will laugh in their face and chortle "I told you so! I told you so!" And I emphasize that that is all I will do. I will not invest time trying to recover something they didn't think was worth backing up.

I even had to actually follow through on that threat with one friend, who is an IT professional and should know better, but he didn't bother to back up the family computer, despite my sternest admonitions. Later, when his daughter's computer went on the fritz, she came to me and said "Here's my computer. Here's what it's doing. Here's my backup. Help me, Obiwan." The message does get out.


What "learning". You buy a drive, you plug it in, Time Machine says "May I use it?", you say "Yes", and you're done. (I tell them to buy two backup drives and SuperDuper, and back up both ways. For most users, that's enough.)

For most users, even if they have installation discs, they can't find them. Believe me, finding a backup is much easier than finding those worthless round flat shiny things that came in the box, or the accompanying unimportant scraps of paper with words like "Warranty" and "User Guide" printed on them. What's the use of shipping install discs for the much more than 80% of users who will simply misplace or discard them?


Oh, c'mon. Get real. That's like saying that if a person buys a computer that person should be able to use that computer forever, confident that it will never break down. Of course things break. Of course you have to pay for the replacement. And of course you sometimes need to pay for the replacement before the original breaks. That's why we have words like "insurance" and "warranty" in the language.

It's like saying that a person who buys a car should never have to replace the tires or re-fill the gas tank or change the oil. Extras like parking permits should be thrown in automatically. If the car does break down, they should still be able to drive it while it's in the shop getting repaired. Why should you need to arrange alternate transportation or pay for roadside assistance if you've already bought a car? Isn't that what the car is for?

As I understand it, no. Carbon Copy Cloner will not preserve the existing TM backup on the destination volume. I don't use CCC, but I notice they recently added an option to preserve top-level items on the destination. That might suffice, but the same manual says CCC will not copy a TM backup from the source, and will erase one from the destination. Those (erasing TM and preserving top-level items) are contradictory assertions, so I dunno. I chose SuperDuper over CCC right after Leopard first came out, partly because SD played nicely with TM from the get-go, and CCC still tries to ignore it.

(The Lion-compatible version of SD was delayed about a month after Leopard was released, largely because it took lots of testing to make sure it worked with TM and hard-linked directories and all the other Leopard innovations. CCC chose to wimp out instead, sweeping all that exotica under the rug in order to get an earlier release. The real reason I chose SD was this attention to detail. He wouldn't release it until it handled everything perfectly, not merely the ordinary cases.)

The asr command-line tool used to be able to do file-level copies that would preserve existing files on the destination, but the man page (at least on 10.7.2) says the --erase option is now mandatory.

I think you might be able to cobble together the same effect using ditto (to copy all the files) followed by bless to make the volume bootable.

Feel free to experiment with any disposable TM backup you have lying around.

While amusing, all these comparisons are arguably and increasingly over the top for the situation the OP finds himself in. We are trying to establish the remedies that require a minimum outlay of additional expense compared with other users who can utilize broadband connections in lieu of OS Install discs. Most of what you say (barring the hyperbole) may be true, but it is still not germane to the issue at hand. Only when it has been established that the prevailing limitations set by the OP cannot be circumvented without additional expense do most of the suggestions made come into play.

The question remains: have all minimal options available to the OP been listed?

The post I was replying to said: A person who buys a computer without installation media should not need to back up.

My answer was: Yeah, they should, just like people who do have installation media.

The post I was replying to said: Users need installation media, because 80% of of them are incapable of making backups.

My answer was: Far more than 80% of users are unable to find whatever installation media their computers came with.


As for the OP's needs, the problem there is lack of bandwidth (and, apparently, lack of interest in actually solving the problem when it's so much more fun to rant). Apple has addressed the bandwidth issue by allowing bandwidth-challenged users to bring the computer to an Apple Store and use their bandwidth.

But the OP also needs to back up. Apple will help restore the system software, but the OP's data is the OP's responsibility, and I don't think there are any alternatives to that. Backing up means buying media to back up to. I don't see any alternative to that, either.

I fully understand what in which post you were responding to, and that is appreciated, as are your posts here in general. My reply above was merely intended to focus things on the OP query, and perhaps use what you and others have contributed in an attempt to generate a summary of options.

Your comment re Apple Store appears not to be a viable option; as he mentioned elsewhere in these forums, it would take the OP at least a full day to implement. All other points you brought up I more or less agree with, although I doubt grelber prefers ranting over a quiet computing routine.

Thanks for the details; they solve all but the bandwidth problem.

Just remembered this: Apple Hardware Test stashed on new macs (I guess?)


That's simply unacceptable...as unacceptable as Apple's advising people to bother their friends, relatives, and employers for broadband access.

Apple can proclaim itself "the" setter of standards and deprecate FireWire, modems/faxing, even (as rumor has it) optical drives, but they simply cannot take it upon themselves to deprecate a means of Internet access that is used by a significant number (even if it's only a small percentage) of people.

This thread raises the awkward question of just who came up with the idea of no longer including system software installation media with Macintosh computers, and who approved it, or decided at the very least not to oppose it.

Why on earth not?

This is the company whose phenomenal resurgence, dating from the return of Steve Jobs, has been marked by the continuous deprecation of things used by significant percentages of its customers: floppy drives, ADB, SCSI, the Motorola 68000 processor family, OS 9 bootability, the PPC processor family, OS 9 emulation, optical drives (MacBook Air and the latest Mac mini), keyboards and removable batteries (iPhone and iPad), etc. ad nauseum.

You may not like all or even any of these forced obsolescences, but the fact is that Apple, simply, can discontinue catering to those on dialup. Indeed, they already have: Macs haven't shipped with internal modems in over five years.

grelber is free to choose not to join the broadband mainstream, but if there's a solution to be found to the dilemma of how to keep a broadband-era Mac up to date with dial-up tools, it won't be induced via sermonizing.

thank you!

Just to put a bit of perspective on the direction in which this thread has spun, what is your d/l speed with your dial-up connection...how many Kbps?

After multiple phone calls, each as frustrating as the one before it, and repeated escalations to higher-level support people, they eventually shipped out an install DVD that contained a Windows installer. The computer eventually became usable again, about three weeks after I replaced the hard drive.

That was a nightmare of its own; replacing the hard drive in that model Inspiron laptop involved a complete disassembly of the entire laptop, up to and including removing the motherboard; the hard drive was located *beneath* the motherboard. But that's a whole 'nother rant.



Granted.

However, if one is to accept the notion that a backup hard drive with a cloned OS on it is an acceptable substitute for install media, one must accept the notion that it is necessary to walk out of the store when one first purchases a computer with an additional hard drive.



You were doing well right up to that point. Comparing shipping install media with using a computer forever, however, is absurd. Absolutely silly.

To borrow your car analogy: Nowadays, many cars come with RFID "keys" and remote door locks. However, these cars still have physical keys and physical door locks, too. They do that in case the radio system fails or the car's battery runs down. If you have power door locks and no physical key, if the battery runs down you can't get into the car.

A reinstall CD is like that physical key. Sure, you never need to stick the key in the door lock when things are working. But if the car battery runs down, and your car dealer decided to save money by giving you only a remote and no physical key, you're locked out of your car with no way in save a locksmith (or, I suppose, breaking a window or something). That is not reasonable. And making a computer unable to boot if the hard drive fails is also not reasonable.



Sure, if you live in an urban area near an Apple store.

There are many states in which there is either exactly one Apple store or no Apple stores. Kansas, Iowa, Arkansas, Maine, and New Mexico each have only one Apple store. Look at New Mexico, for example; the state covers 121,355 square miles...and has only one Apple store. How many miles do you believe it's reasonable to drive to an Apple store? And pity the poor people in Montana, South Dakota, West Virginia, Wyoming, and Vermont, which have no Apple stores at all.What good is Apple's offer then?

Why not include installation media? What's the compelling argument against it?

The best estimate I can give is based on my download meter, which usually indicates somewhere between 4.0 and 5.1 Kbps.
As noted elsewhere, Apple estimated a 435MB download (OS 10.7.2 update*) to take 27 hours.
* When I went to the Apple support site on another computer, it stated that the size of the download was 768MB; I don't know why the discrepancy.

Thanks.

The larger one was probably the Combo, i.e. 10.7.1 + 10.7.2, whereas yours was the Delta, i.e. 10.7.2.

Cursory research would've told you that's not true. The 10.7.2 Delta is the 768 MB package; the Combo is 818 MB. (The 10.7.1 Update is under 80 MB in size.)

My guess is that the 435 MB figure was obtained via Software Update on grelber's own iMac, and therefore didn't include components not applicable to his system.

Your guess is correct.

So I was correct about the smaller one being the "grelber-specific" Delta, or am I misusing the term "Delta" in applying it to Software Update's offering?

And as for the larger one, I've never paid attention to the sizes of Apple-offered Deltas, and I'm amazed to learn of the huge difference between it and SU's, thus my erroneous conclusion that it was the Combo.

Thanks for the clarification.

You're correct, of course... Apple can deprecate whatever they care to deprecate, and, in fact, I'll bet that if they deprecated toilet bowls in favor of enforced employee regularity they'd still have lines of hopefuls stretching around the block in search of employment.

I've got no issue with modems having gone the way of all flesh; their current niche is too small to expect support from...well, from almost anybody. (Witness the dearth of fax software, which, you can bet, would still be available if enough of a market existed.) Nor have I got any ongoing issues with other technology that Apple has deprecated (OK... Their premature killing of FireWire 400 was an exception.) despite any initial objections I may have raised. Time and technology march on hand-in-hand, and since there's never a clear dividing line between the old and the new, it is inevitable that there'll be major objections to the new prior to its having fully replaced the old.

What I really meant is that I refuse to accept, until, of course, it's rammed down my throat, that Apple's much-vaunted, world-class Customer Support has been reduced to having to tell customers such as grelber who may have their HDs go south on them that their only option is to unplug their Macs, carry them down the road or across town, and borrow somebody's broadband (which may even require the installation of new software Edit: if, in fact, there's actually somebody down the road or across town who's got broadband) to d/l a new Lion installation.

I'll be beyond shocked if Apple hasn't got some sort of backup "fulfillment" plan to cover that inevitability.

And that's all my "simply cannot" translates to...astonishment that Apple may have decided to treat some of its customers so shabbily.

The need for a backup hard drive has nothing to do with install media. Whether you get install media or not, you still need a hard drive (or two) for backup.

Apple makes and sells great computers, but they're not the best place to buy hard drives. Get your drives (and any RAM beyond the bare minimum) elsewhere. I wouldn't walk out of the store with either.


But it does boot after the hard drive fails (and is replaced). If you have a slow internet connection, it boots really really slowly, but it does boot.

If you choose to have only a dial-up connection, you have to accept that you have a slow connection. Everything runs slow, not just the first boot after replacing the hard drive.

Note that I'm not saying having only dial-up is a wrong decision. I can conceive of many justifications, ranging from budget to availability. I'm just saying that it has consequences. Unavoidable consequences. Even the very best of reasons for having only dial-up won't make it fast.

Apple does what they can to mitigate the problem by offering the use of their in-store bandwidth. If the store is too far away, you're free to look for alternatives that are closer to hand. Or you can dial up, start the download, and check back in the morning.

There are services that provide guaranteed up-time. Web hosting services, especially for business web sites that include an on-line store, often guarantee an upper limit on downtime (both as a percentage over the year, and per-incident). Those services come with a hefty premium. Apple's not in that business. They sell you a computer. Contingency plans for what you'll do if it goes down are your responsibility.

If instead of a disk, it's the screen or power supply or mother board that goes down, Apple will repair the computer under warranty. Heck, they'll replace the disk under warranty, and even take care of re-installing the OS. (They won't replace your data. Backup is your responsibility.) But you're looking at a trip to the store to get any repair work done. It may be FedEx that makes the trip, but Apple is not going to ship you the spare parts and tools to do it yourself. They also aren't going to bundle the tools and spare parts with the computer, to be used just in case the computer breaks.

Think of the install media as a tool that you can, if you're so inclined, use as part of an in-house disk-replacement procedure. It's a tool that makes the procedure faster and more convenient, but it's not essential. It's a tool you can make on your own, or buy from Apple.

But Apple isn't required to give you every tool and part you might need. Your computer no longer comes with USB and FireWire cables, and has never come with a ThunderBolt cable. Apple used to include a blank CD-R (and later a DVD-RW) with their computers; they don't do that any more either. My first iPod came with a very nice carrying case. They don't do that any more, either. So now Apple has added installation media to the list of freebies that are no longer thrown into the box.


They cost money, and for most users do absolutely no good. The software comes pre-installed, so most users never use them even once before filing them in some forgotten corner where they'll never be found again. Even if it only cost a penny (and it'll cost a lot more than that for the packaging alone), it's wasted money.

It also looks bad. Apple prides themselves on their packaging. No extra styrofoam, no extra cardboard, no extra plastic. And now no never-to-be-used DVDs.

But that's the kind of nickel & dime stuff businesses do when they're digging for an extra penny in the bottom line, and it's not at all becoming for a company that's riding the crest of one of the biggest profit waves in history to act that way.

It underscores corporate greed!

(Edit: Even if they must eventually do it,) (t)hey'd look waaay better saving it for when they need it.

That argument, at least, I find compellingly unpersuasive. Apple is one of the most profitable businesses in the world, with greater market capitalization than any existing company save ExxonMobile and more cash on hand than any other company period. The amount of money those DVDs cost is quite literally below the noise threshold; a momentary blip on the world oil futures market that drives up the cost of shipping by a tenth of a percent quite literally costs Apple far more than those DVDs.

But they haven't been reduced to that.

I am often asked to help Mac users who are having problems. Almost invariably when I ask for their install DVD, the answer is, "I didn't know I needed to keep it so I threw it away" or "there were disks in the box?" Call it user error or buyer beware or whatever you want those install disks are too often missing to be of any real value. It seems to me the new download system is ultimately more usable for the vast majority of users.

Good point!!!

only $70 for a thumb drive!?!
take two, they're small.

I'm not decrying the new d/l system per se, merely one aspect, grelber's, of it.

In grelber's shoes, would you find the option of buying a $70 thumb drive an acceptable alternative to the free discs you used to get with a new Mac?

Same end, in my view, anyhow... In this one particular instance, Apple Customer Support has been reduced to clown status.

I think we maybe ought to drop this discussion at this point and wait for some real-world reports; I suspect that Apple will come up with something when the skata starts hitting the fan.

We can only hope and pray and prey.

At the moment it looks like it's Apple that doing the preying; we be the prayees.

Hmm...if I could afford the purchase of a new iMac with four times as many processors as my first Mac, running at 100 times the clock speed, with a hard drive with 3125 times the capacity, 1000 times as much RAM, and a camera, wireless and Bluetooth built in, for 70% of the price of that first Mac, I think my insistence on feeling screwed over by Apple because of the need to shell out $70 I didn't need to spend back then would be misplaced.

How much would it cost to put the flash memory needed for the Mac OS X Installer into the computer itself, as a kind of built in thumb drive?

DVDs are still cheaper...

No, but I would find the free Lion Recovery Disk Assistant an acceptable alternative. Make as many install discs and/or USB installers as you want.

And when I mentioned the cost of shipping the discs with the computer, my concern wasn't the impact on Apple's bottom line, so much as the impact on the planet. We need to get away from the attitude that it's harmless to ship extra styrofoam, cardboard, plastic, vinyl, and whatnot, just so we can fill our landfills faster.

Apple gets it. If they didn't, they've got Al Gore on their board, and Greenpeace sniping at their every misstep, to keep them on course. They've removed BFR's from their cables, and use more eco-friendly production processes for motherboards and other components. It's a greener world, my friends, and reducing waste is an essential part of that.

The cost I was referring to wasn't $$, it was forgetting the first R in Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. Why ship the installer on DVD when you can ship it electronically? Bits don't pollute.

Actually, bits do pollute, and more than you might think. Server farms consume astonishing amounts of power.

For example: In the United States, Google currently operates 12 data centers. Each data center consumes approximately 20 megawatts of power per month, representing a little over $2 million of electricity per month per data center. That is approximately half the total output from a very large coal-fired power plant (which is not to say that Google uses coal; they attempt, where possible, to locate their data centers where hydroelectric power is available).

That's not true of Facebook. Facebook operates nine US data centers; the largest, near my home in Oregon, occupies more than 300,000 square feet and consumes a whopping 60 megawatts(!) of power, which is provided by a coal-fired plant in Boardman, Oregon. The 585 megawatt Boardman plant is the worst single source of pollution on the West Coast (it was built long before EPA clean air regulations), and PG&E had actually planned to close the plant before Facebook announced plans to build their data center here. Facebook will be consuming more than 10% of the plant's total peak electrical output.

Apple's new iCloud data center in North Carolina has the capacity to scale to 100 megawatts of power(!!), though Apple won't say how much power it's currently consuming. Roughly half of the power fed to the NC data center comes from coal.

It would be an interesting research project to do a cradle-to-grave energy and environmental impact assessment of data shipped on DVDs vs. data held in data centers and shipped over the Internet. A single-time, single-use download of Lion from Apple's data center would probably come out ahead of a Lion DVD, but given that it's not easy for average non-technical users to burn installers themselves (and doing so would still require considering the manufacture, shipping, and disposal cost of a blank DVD), I bet that a user who has multiple computers to upgrade to Lion may download a copy for each computer, rather thanusing just one DVD on all of them. In an institutional setting, that might shift the environmental cost onto digital downloads away from DVDs.

Am I missing something here? Lion Recovery Disk Assistant allows you to make and boot from a Lion Recovery Disk on an external drive, but you'll still need to download several gigabytes of data to reinstall Lion while so booted. The whole point of the "unacceptable" $69 USB drive is that someone in grelber's shoes would be able to reinstall Lion without broadband (or indeed, any) internet access.

I knew it was a lot ... but not that much a lot. Oy!

North of the 49th we were treated recently to a documentary on Google which described the acquisition of the property for one of those server farms (in NC). Apparently the community had lost major industry in the area (to somewhere south of the Rio Bravo) and the area was hurting badly economically. Because there was now an essentially unused power station nearby, the defunct company's physical plant was ideally suited for such a server farm. Google, "under cloak of darkness"*, made a deal with the local politicos and administration which saw them acquire the property with major concessions in terms of property taxes and the like. They're now set up and running.

* Much like Walt Disney's surreptitious acquisition of land in and around Orlando for his "world of tomorrow" complex.

Google isn't the only one. If I recall correctly, Google, Yahoo, Intuit, and Apple have all recently taken advantage of cheap power and abundant industrial space in North Carolina to build server farms there.

Granting tax incentives and steep property subsidies to relocate businesses isn't new. Microsoft is building a half-billion-dollar server farm in Texas, and the state and local governments have given the company more than $20 million in tax breaks and subsidies to do so.

No you are not missing anything. But another person who writes in here is.
He is not paying attention.

He seems to think that every Mac owner should have broadband. And if a Mac owner doesn't but wants to reinstall Lion and asks how, the answer according to him is, in effect, to get broadband. But that is not an answer. The question at issue is what answer to suggest given the absence of broadband.

Smart people can sometimes miss the point though inattention (or for other reasons).

Huh?

Let's suppose that you've just upgraded from your Chevy to a new Lexus, and the owner's manual tells you that

• Tires rarely go flat.
• Most people wouldn't even know how to change a flat tire if they encountered one.
• Most people have cell phones and can call for roadside assistance.
• Therefore, Lexus is no longer including spare tires with its cars, so you can either buy one for (70/1200 = x/36000 -->) $2100(!) or, if you haven't got a cell phone, sit in the middle of the Mojave Desert and wait until somebody stops and offers assistance.

I expect that you'd not be so blase about that!

But, in fact, the typical contemporary car doesn't come with a full-size spare tire! (Thanks for making my point for me.) Most models ship with a temporary little "donut" spare not rated for sustained driving but sufficient to get one to a repair facility; others use so-called "run-flat" tires and are provided without a spare at all, or include tire sealant and an onboard compressor.

The analogy is flawed in any case, because upgrading an iMac to an iMac—which is what grelber did—would be like upgrading a Chevy to a new Chevy. Further, your reasoning for how to assign a theoretical upcharge for a spare tire is absurd; there's no reason at all to equate the proportionate value of a spare tire to that of a USB installer drive. It's much more likely that Chevy ("Repair kits are standard in most General Motors Co. cars and crossovers, but customers can add a spare to most vehicles for an extra $100 to $150") adds a margin (say, $60) to the cost of providing a donut—just as Apple does with the the USB installer.

No, the true outrage with the USB installer is the size of the margin relative to the cost of providing it. And while this margin percentagewise clearly exceeds that of the typical overpriced Apple upgrade (RAM being the classic example), in absolute terms it's pretty negligible. That was really my point—all this hue and cry is being raised over what amounts to a sixty-buck penalty for refusing to get with the broadband program. And, if you haven't looked lately, Apple has been steering the entire company towards high-speed, always-connected devices and services for quite awhile now, and applying a tariff to dial-up users is fully consistent with that trajectory.

Yes, $69 for a USB stick is a bit pricey. But, sorry, it just doesn't rate High Dudgeon.

What on Earth...?

I was simply comparing how two companies that pride themselves on being "Class Acts," Apple and Lexus, have reacted to roughly analogous situations.

And in doing so, I farcically pointed out the ridiculous price tag a Lexus spare tire, donut, whatever would carry if it were priced proportionally to Apple's "spare tire" (which, by the way, will not come with bundled apps [if there still are such things] and, so, may not be a complete solution).

And while I can't question Apple's having directed itself towards "high-speed, always-connected devices and services," I can find serious reason to question its apparently thumbing its nose at upwards of 10% of American and Canadian computer users, plus a perhaps (likely?) greater percentage of the rest of the world, in the process.

Why should anybody be penalized for not having broadband service? Dial-up may not be "The Thing," but it's far from deprecated technology.

Apple can copy Dell and Gateway marketing tactics, but labeling them "green" doesn't make them any less cheap or cheesy.

But is my "outrage" out of line?

What say you, grelber, whose wine cellar will be a couple of bottles less full by virtue of dk's having so magnanimously ceded sixty nine of your dollars to Apple, for a possibly incomplete solution, no less, as a "penalty for (your) refusing to get with the broadband program?"

I think it's about time the ball got bounced back to your court, grelber...

You started this thread to find out "how would I create a bootable install disk," and we've now established that Apple has stranded you north of the 49th with neither roadside assistance nor a spare tire (or, for dk's benefit, any manner of substitute therefor), so I think it's time for you to get on the horn to Apple and spearhead the campaign to see what can be gotten out of them.

I know for sure that I neither have to script you nor explain the benefits of escalating to higher authorities.

Please indulge my curiosity, grelber...

You started this thread to find out "how would I create a bootable install disk" and have watched it meander to a so-far conclusionless conclusion, so may I ask why you've apparently disassociated yourself from it without helping it reach its logical conclusion by determining what Apple may be willing to do to accommodate you and the many others stuck in your situation?

I'd make the call myself, but I haven't got the pre-requisites.

Thanks.

I haven't added anything to the discussion because most of it has been well beyond my ken. The takeaway lesson I got is that a bootable backup disk for OS X Lion isn't possible, even though some of the contributors say it is. From the discussion it would certain be beyond my power to do it — although I'm hopeful that by going page by page through Pogue's book I might at some point take a stab at it.

At one point a senior advisor at Apple suggested that he might be able to provide that thumb drive with Lion install info on it gratis, but he'd have to obtain a special dispensation to do so (and he wasn't sanguine about the outcome). I gave up on Apple's tech support at that point.

As noted, I plan to go through all 900+ pages of Pogue's book (which arrived 11 hours ago) slowly and deliberately. Already I've learned that command-comma opens Preferences in all applications, as well as the iPad form (Magic Mouse) and function (MM behavior), which I had already come to terms with and am grateful to my sister for having allowed me to play (~ mess around) with her iPad back a couple months ago so that I came to the task quasi-primed. So I'll march on from there.

> "all 900+ pages of Pogue's book"

So there's at least 900 pages of stuff that I don't know (and haven't missed...yet). :shrug:

Thanks for responding, and with the key info, no less.

As I suggested, even a thumb drive might not be the real deal, because it wouldn't include the bundled apps that I assume came with your iMac. (And that assumes that an Internet Restore will read your configuration and include them.)

I just dunno... It looks like Apple actually is telling a percentage of the world that their only option in the event of catastrophe is to unplug their Macs and carry them next door to a neighbor's house, or across town to a cousin's, or to work, to, so to speak, "borrow a cup of Internet."

And they're telling an additional percentage of the world to whom broadband just plain isn't available that they don't really want a Mac any more.

That is, of course, unless paying US$69 for a (Edit: possibly incomplete) thumb drive is considered to be a reasonable fix. (You'd think they'd at least give people in your position a major break on the price.)

On a lighter note... I'm happy to hear that you've apparently overcome your initial reluctance to embrace your new iMac and have gotten into the swing of things; I hope you're enjoying it.

I don't understand your conclusion. It is possible to get Lion bootable backup disk very easily. The bottleneck is only your internet speed (and maybe your reluctance to persevere). If you really wanted it, it would not be impossible to find a place with fast Internet connection (even at an Apple store) or even pay for an Apple dongle. I think this discussion reached its logical end. Anyway, hope you won't need that backup disk for a long while!

Or it might include them... but then again, those would be backed up elsewhere anyway (e.g. a Time Capsule).

> "[...] it would not be impossible to find a place with fast Internet connection [...] or even pay for an Apple dongle."

You're missing the point... Much of the thrust of this thread has been that nobody should have to do either!

But yeah... You're correct about this thread having reached its logical conclusion.

Maybe (if Apple sees fit to create machine specific thumb drives); only maybe.

And while either a Time Machine or other such backup is certainly a most excellent idea, it is not necessarily the way all users run, much though Apple would prefer that we all buy Time Capsules.

Actually, I did not miss the point, I replied to a concrete post. And I agree that for upgraders, the current procedure is OK, but for those with new computers it is a little cold shower. But if we must adapt to this situation, "where there is a will, there is a way".
Maybe I am lucky, but I don't recall to have used system disk since at least Tiger.
For those who disagree, what Apple should have done on new computers, IMHO, is at least have included full OS version on the recovery HD partition without the need to download. These days, any new computer has an HD large enough to sacrifice 4GB.

> [...] what Apple should have done on new computers, IMHO, is at least have included full OS version on the recovery HD partition without the need to download.

Edit: And, for users in grelber's situation, a way to burn it to a disc.

That would have been a fine solution... green, cost-efficient, even, shudder, logical!

> But if we must adapt to this situation, "where there is a will, there is a way".

Wow!!! That just exploded into a mushroom cloud...

Whatever on Earth has become of "It just works?"

> [...] or even pay for an Apple dongle.

It just occurred to me that although both (and maybe not only) V1 and dkmarsh have made the point that $69 is pretty pricey for a thumb drive with an OS that only costs $30 to d/l and would probably only cost $35 on a disc, we've all overlooked the fact that users such as grelber would be paying that same stiff price for no more than a hard copy of the OS they already bought and paid for when they bought their Macs!

And, by the way, it looks like Apple is enforcing the $69 price by refusing to wholesale OS X Lion USB Thumb Drives to resellers who could then discount them. (Does anybody remember that I suggested a while back that it looked like Apple was maybe squeezing resellers out of the OS X distribution process?)

No offense, but ...

If it were easy, how come this thread is so long? And I can get fast access to the Internet but only for downloading updates onto a thumb drive. But nowhere in this discussion do I recall that such is possible for acquiring install media; it certainly isn't an option on Apple's download site.

And I haven't forgotten your generous offer (in post #18303), for which I'm grateful.

If I were reluctant to persevere, why would I have gotten Pogue's book and commented in that same post that "I plan to go through all 900+ pages of Pogue's book ... slowly and deliberately"? (At present I'm up to page 37.)

I wouldn't know a dongle if I met one in the street, and if I had to pay for it ... well, you know what that's tantamount to.
According to TechTerms.com (a nice little site for non-cogniscienti like me) a dongle is a security key, but I don't understand how such would apply here.

> But nowhere in this discussion do I recall that such is possible for acquiring install media; it certainly isn't an option on Apple's download site.

I'm certain that it's already been mentioned, but I'll repeat, rather than research, that the only known way to acquire a bootable backup disc (of which I'm aware, anyhow) is to purchase Lion from the App Store, extract the appropriate file from the d/l, and burn it to a disc.

Exactly (other than the offer mentioned previously).

Disinclude me from your list of the oblivious, please; that's been clear to me all along. The "stiff price" you're bemoaning, as I've said earlier, is simply a tax on those who resist entering the broadband era, since it can easily be avoided as described by ganbustein above...if one has a fast internet connection.

The existence of the Mac App Store (and before it, the iTunes store) might be the most obvious testimony to Apple's commitment to a future in which our Macs are populated with content downloaded from remote servers, but Lion Recovery, Lion Internet Recovery, and iCloud all point in the same direction.

The MacBook Air and the Mac mini point up a further reason for Apple's disinclination to provide an easy Lion install-disc remedy: they have no optical drives. (Imagine that a Lion install disc were available under some "Apple Fulfillment" policy for a nominal S&H fee of ten bucks, and that grelber had purchased a MacBook Air. Would you wax apoplectic on his behalf over Apple's "forcing" him to purchase an external optical drive to make use of such a disc?) Apple is clearly focused fully on a future in which content is acquired remotely.

To me, the difficulty someone in grelber's position encounters with respect to this issue is exactly the same as the difficulty I encounter trying to stay productive with a PPC Mac: Apple is moving in directions which require an upgraded setup to be fully taken advantage of. In grelber's case, it's the connection speed that's the weak link; in mine it's the hardware.

I doubt even you could get too worked up on behalf of someone whose Mac is 6+ years old being "left behind." Instead of focusing on grelber's brand new iMac failing to be fully supported by Apple, try looking at it as his twenty year old internet access technology that's being abandoned.

[Stylistic aside: I don't know about other folks here, but to me, your employment of bold red italicized text to emphasize your key points is very akin to the "shouting" in all-upper-case letters that we all avoid as a matter of polite form. Any one of those three formatting enhancements would be sufficient to distinguish the emphasized text from its surroundings.

Though I suspect your combination of all three is simply an expression of how passionately you feel about the point being made, the effect (on this reader, at least) is to imply that your point doesn't stand on its own...]

while I agree with everything you have said, I did laugh when I noticed your signature!!

A blank dvd disc costs what?... two bucks tops? I musta missed your passionate posts when Apple sold Puma, Jaguar, Panther, Tiger and Leopard on dvd for almost $130.



[Not to mention: a thumb drive can be reused years later, when Lion becomes irrelevant. What can i use my $500 worth of Puma, Jaguar, Panther & Tiger dvds for now? ]

Could not agree more!

You're as hopelessly stuck in your position as I am in mine, and I don't care to go 'round in the same circle again, so I'm not getting into the point-by-point response I could post.

But how about directing your copious research skills towards finding out (as I've been unable to do) what percentage of the world has "resist(ed) entering the broadband era" simply because it just plain does not have access to broadband, and, further, what percentage of the world has broadband but is hobbled by capped bandwidth?

(Your stylistic aside has made its point, but "my combination of all three" is, from my point of view, an expression of frustration...exasperation.)

We uncomplainingly paid those prices for new "technology," not to acquire a hard copy of the OS we'd already paid for when we bought our Macs.

Corporations are unfair, we all know that, and Apple is no exception. In this situation, we have to cope with Apple's aggressive marketing strategy because there seems to be no other way. Hopefully, Apple will realize that it made a mistake and clean up their act for people who bought Lion-running Macs. Or offer a big discount for the USB drive to those who are on dial–up. Frankly, I personally would bitch only if the dial-up download is interrupted; if not, let it go overnight and then save the installer that downloads from the recovery partition. I hope it does not automatically launch and then disappear. In the latter instance, I would fully side with you!

Apropos the (apparent non-)necessity of a bootable backup disk, see External hard drives for backups in the Peripherals forum, especially the latter posts.

EDIT: See post #18966 in Peripherals » External hard drives for backups for my last word here.

Doing the math: 29 + 69 = 100 roughly.
Therefore, we now pay 30 dollars (or 23%) less, even if we opt for the [reusable] thumb drive.

Seems like we probably ought to press on, uncomplainingly.


[i do see your point about 'new tech' wrt OS upgrades of an old machine, versus the need to emergency boot a new machine. iduno, when i get Lion i'll look into it a little deeper i suppose.]

Without some user intervention, that is exactly what it does.

And that intervention being – abort install?

It could be a worse quandary. I've been digging around some of those "I wonder what's in there?" boxes from one move or another and discovered several of the instructional cassettes that originally came with Macs and Mac software.

For those who may not recall the early machines, you got a 400K floppy with the video of the instructions and a cassette with the audio. You had to press "start" on the cassette at the same time as clicking "start" on the Mac, and hope the two stayed in sync. (Actually, all things considered, they worked quite well.)

At least with obsolete DVDs, you could have a few coasters, whereas it'd be a bit difficult to balance glasses on old cassettes.

1. I understand Apple's "forward-thinking" (and with no need for discourses on same), but in this particular instance, backwards compatibility would neither require extensive code nor bring into play the potential problems that joemikeb has discussed on several occasions; it would require no more than either including a disc with each new Mac (...my preferred solution) or accommodating those who ask for them, so I don't understand their recalcitrance, and, further, I consider it embarrassing, indeed ludicrous, for them to have to have included


in a kBase doc. All else aside, it overlooks the reality that there are still places in the world where broadband is just plain 100% unavailable.(Wasn't anybody paying attention when that got posted?)

Edit: Even if you go to the trouble of unplugging your iMac or Mac Pro and carrying it and its appurtenances to an Internet cafe can you actually cable it up?

2. Looks like you missed grelber's relevant post.

At a sustained d/l rate of 5kbps, it would take him 9 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 20 seconds to complete a 4Gb d/l. (I think I saw 4.07Gb for Lion somewhere.)

Or, in "new" math, 30 + 39 = 69, so we now pay $39...130% more to get Lion on a thumb drive than we paid to get Snow Leopard on a disc.

I did not realize indeed that his dial-up is THAT slow. I have read somewhere that Americans are more willing now to cope with bad service and suffer through than complain and try to win or find a better place to get what they want. A pragmatic attitude of sorts. So, if I personally were in Grelber's situation, I would just bite the bullet and shell out 69 bucks (more in my case with sales tax) rather than complain on a forum that has no power to do anything about it. Or continue talks with Apple (he nearly succeeded but then gave up), or ask around to find somebody who upgraded. The question is not about impossibility, it is about unfairness. But in that domain there is nothing new, IMHO.

See post #18951 above.

> [...] rather than complain on a forum that has no power to do anything about it.

Just to set the record straight, grelber didn't complain; he merely asked how to create a bootable Lion backup disc, and the thread forked off from there.

> The question is not about impossibility, it is about unfairness.

I think it's more about stupidity than it is about unfairness, Alex.

How can Apple say


without also acknowledging that the same set of circumstances affects some purchasers of Macs with pre-installed Lion and results in, under the circumstances, useless "Recovery" functionality?

At any rate, I think that, $ for $, grelber's Time Machine route is a better one than blowing $69 on a thumb drive. (My personal reservation to that is that I like to do a clean install every once in a while when things feel like they're getting sluggish, and Time Machine doesn't allow that [unless maybe the first thing you do when you get your Mac is run TM and use that pristine backup as your "restore disc"].)

If money were an issue…

One can buy an 8GB thumb drive for about $10.00 and then using Lion Disk Maker, make their own Lion backup key.

We've been there, Harv, but the issue isn't money; it's the fact that grelber is stuck behind a 5Kbps dial-up modem and is unable to d/l the installer (unless, that is, he's willing to tie up his phone line for 9 1/4 days).

Why is a second download needed again?
Isn't there an "InstallESD.dmg" file tucked away somewhere?

As per...

This file apparently does not exist on Lion-preloaded Macs. Tomorrow, I will see a new MBP with Lion preloaded and try to find it. Will report back.

Could not find the file as suspected; checked receipts as well.

I, for one, will be shocked if you find it; there's no reason for it to exist on a Mac with Recovery functionality. (And if you do find it, this entire thread will have been an exercise in futility.)

The only way of which I'm aware to get your hands on that file is to d/l Lion from the App Store and have the knowledge and presence of mind to save it.

But aren't you speaking from your experience d/l'ing Lion from the App Store rather than about Internet Recovery?

I'd love to experiment myself, but I haven't got Lion, so I can only suggest that somebody who has d/l'ed it do an Internet Recovery and tell us precisely how it works...

For instance, does it d/l an installer package, and, if so, how does the installer run in "Safari only" mode, or, on the other hand, does it install as it d/l's?

And if it does d/l an installer package is there any way to save it in "Safari only" mode?

And have I even asked the right questions?

As noted elsewhere, Recovery HD is an integral part of Lion. But even Pogue (p 850) recommends restoring from TM backup: "If your Mac is really hosed, this is the option you want. It restores your entire software world — programs, data, settings, Mac OS X itself ...."

That's the primary reason I chose the route I did. Who wants/needs an outdated OS X system which has none of the carefully 'engineered' personality that you put into it? With TM backup restoration, you get exactly what you want.

And do the math: $70 OS X thumb drive with 10.7.x vs $100 backup drive. The latter provides peace of mind; the former gets dated really fast.

Sure... Except for the fact that you can't use Time Machine to reinstall a pristine Lion (other than as described by ganbustein, but that's useless in your instance) as I like to do on occasion when things begin to feel sluggish. And don't forget that along with your "carefully 'engineered' personality," TM also reinstalls the accumulated detritus of your usage.

And further, depending on how and why your installation got hosed, TM may do no better than reinstall a disaster that's about to happen or, if you go back a bit farther, the underpinnings of that disaster, so you may, in fact, have to go so far back to get a good TM restoration that much of your "carefully 'engineered' personality" is lost.

Actually, a clean install combined with judicious use of Migration Assistant and/or FireWire target disk mode (to access cloned data) may be an equally complete and better solution than a TM restoration.

Sure... I agree that TM is a great gift, but I don't accept it as the panacea you seem to think it is.

And as I've already said (Post #19009), "$ for $, grelber's Time Machine route is a better one than blowing $69 on a thumb drive."

I agree with your provisos as legitimate concerns.

However, I suspect I can get close to "pristine" (ie, not likely corrupted, nascently or otherwise, re 10.7.2 + updated third-party applications) by selecting my first backup as the restore version. [See also below under EDIT.]
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating (restoring), if such is ever necessary.

EDIT:
I'm not sure who among this thread's contributors has or doesn't have Lion, so just let me point out (grâce à Pogue, p 848) to artie and others who don't have Lion:

'When you install Lion, it automatically creates an invisible hidden "hard drive" (a partition of your main drive that has its own icon) called Recover HD. It's a 650-megabyte "drive" that's generally invisible to you. It's even invisible to Disk Utility, so even if you erase your hard drive, the Recovery HD is still there to help you. ... On it, Apple has provided some emergency tools for fixing drive or software glitches, restoring files, browsing the Web, and even reinstalling Lion.'

True, but

1. Your first backup will be lacking both some personality and perhaps much content which you'll have to drag piecemeal from later backups and
2. I believe your first backup will eventually be overwritten.

Fingers crossed that the issue will never be other than a hypothetical one.

I've been meaning to point out, and the present line of discussion is as good an opening as any, that a computer used to be self-sufficient in a sense...kinda like the Phoenix.

Even if you crashed and burned and lost everything, you always had that magic restore disc that you could pop into the slot and, in about an hour, have a brand new computer all ready to begin regrouping and collecting new data.

But now you need that damned high-speed Internet connection.

Boo!!!

Apple can keep its Restore partition; I'll be happy with a restore disc any time.

Rats! You beat my edit by seconds. Please check out same (and see if it changes your mind, re your last post).

EDIT: Given that so far my backups are using 24GB of 1000GB, with incremental backups on the order of +1-5MB, I suspect I won't have to worry about my first one ever being deleted/overwritten. My total files are at best 3GB.

That-all may have been covered in this thread or (an)other(s), but thanks for (re-)presenting it in this context.

That "even reinstalling Lion" part is kinda misleading, though, without mentioning that high-speed Internet is required for that particular function.

According to Pogue, it isn't ... unless your hard drive is totally kaput and requires replacement. (And that's where TM comes in.)

And you beat my post!

I don't see why you think you edit would have changed my mind...clarification please.

Given what I said, I thought you might change your mind, since I thought Lion installed a copy of itself onto Recover HD.
I went back and re-read Pogue who appended a note that 'it requires an Internet connection and a lot of patience.' In other words you're right.

That doesn't sound correct.

There's no way a 650Mb Recovery partition could include a 4Gb Lion install package, so if you've got to reinstall Lion, even to a functional HD, I don't see how you can do it sans d/l.

Please post an on-the-mark quote.

Apple - OS X Lion Recovery - Introducing Lion Recovery also mentions reinstall without mentioning Internet, but...

And, on the other hand, maybe Pogue knows something that all of us have missed and, as I suggested to Alex, this entire thread has, indeed, been an exercise in futility.

Edit: Never mind!

If you purchase Lion from the App Store, you get a 3.76GB application called "Install Mac OS X Lion.app". If you show package contents of that app, you discover that the bulk of it (at ./Contents/SharedSupport/InstallESD.dmg) is a 3.74GB disk image of a full Lion installer. The remaining 20MB is just a GUI wrapper around that install image.

If you install Lion from that application, one of its post-install scripts deletes the application if it's still at its default download location (in /Applications). If it gets deleted, no problem. You bought it from the App Store, and can therefore re-download it for free to any computer associated with the Apple ID you used to purchase it.

You can also install Lion by mounting InstallESD.dmg (or, as I mentioned, a clone of it). When mounted, InstallESD.dmg looks and behaves just like one of the install discs we've become accustomed to over the years.

When you install Lion, by whatever means, it tries to create a Recovery HD partition. However, the Recovery HD partition is only 650MB, and is not large enough to contain a full copy of Lion. It's only a very compressed copy of the installer, minus the actual Lion payload. (It does, apparently, contain Safari and Disk Utility. It may contain enough to re-install from Time Machine.)

If your machine shipped with Lion, you have a Recovery HD partition pre-installed. (You also, of course, have Lion itself pre-installed.) In addition, there is in firmware enough smarts to configure an internet connect, and download a copy of Recovery HD. This "internet recovery" lets you proceed as if you had a Recovery HD partition, even it has been lost for whatever reason. Recovery HD, once downloaded by firmware (or found on disk), turns around and downloads Lion. Notice that the firmware is not large enough to contain even a full copy of Recovery HD. (If it were, you wouldn't need Recovery HD.)

If your machine shipped with Lion, then you did not need to buy Lion from the App Store. If you didn't, you cannot download "Install Mac OS X Lion.app" for free, and don't have access to a copy of "InstallESD.dmg". (Since I did purchase Lion in the App Store, I cannot tell if it could also be purchased from a machine that shipped with Lion. If it can, $29 for Lion is a lot cheaper than the USB installer.)

No matter how you install Lion, it always goes out to the internet to (a) update Lion to the latest version, and (b) verify that you're entitled to install it. (That is, you're either installing onto a machine that shipped with Lion, or your Apple ID purchased a copy.)

Most Apple docs say simply that installing Lion requires a Wi-Fi connection, which has got to be inaccurate. (A Wi-Fi connection to a router that is not connected to the internet isn't going to work; an Ethernet connection to a DSL modem should work just fine.) I did see one doc that explicitly says that installing Lion requires a broadband connection to the internet. That requirement I believe, but I can't seem to find that document now. I think the "Wi-Fi required" language is a carelessly worded attempt to say "a cellphone data plan won't work".

When Apple says you need a network connection, I don't know if they mean it's not practical to install without one (as in, you won't get the latest version), or that they will simply refuse to install if you don't have one.

That's not correct. I've verified by testing that if you erase your disk, the Recovery HD partition goes away with it.

To be precise, whenever Lion is installed on a volume, the installer automatically carves a 650MB partition out of the end of the partition you're installing onto, and puts the Recovery HD partition there. If you install Lion onto multiple partitions on the same drive, you get multiple copies of Recovery HD, one at the end of each partition on which Lion is installed.

If you then remove Lion from such a partition using a Lion-savvy utility to do so, the 650MB partition gets re-absorbed into the normal partition it follows. The obvious example is using Lion's version of Disk Utility to erase the volume, but using the Lion Installer to restore Snow Leopard from backup also re-absorbs the partition. (If you subsequently use the Lion installer to restore Lion from a TM backup, the partition is re-created.)

The only way Pogue could have erased a volume and still had Recovery HD left behind is if he used a non-Lion-savvy utility to do it. (For example, if he used Snow Leopard's version of Disk Utility to erase the volume.)

And of course you can always get back all your disk space by re-partitioning.

> No matter how you install Lion, it always goes out to the internet to (a) update Lion to the latest version, [....]

Do you know if that includes thumb drive installations, and does it mean that you can't revert to an earlier version if you so desire?

> I did see one doc that explicitly says that installing Lion requires a broadband connection to the internet. That requirement I believe, but I can't seem to find that document now.


> When Apple says you need a network connection, [....]

What, precisely, does "network connection" mean in this context?

Tell that to the ~8 service drives around this building that I keep synced with the mother drive in my laptop bag. Two of the partitions are 10.7.2 installed service partition and a 10.7.0 bootable retail installer.

Anyone that tells you it's not possible is inadequately educated

Indeed, that I am ... which is why I phrased it the way I did. But given the parameters under which I function, for me it's not possible.

Your speaking out of context, V1... It is impossible in grelber's instance, because he did not purchase Lion from the App Store, rather he got it installed on his new iMac, and, further, he's stuck behind a 5Kbps dial-up Internet connection.

If you can suggest how to get around those limitations and create a bootable backup, i.e. installer, disc you'll have a double-fistful of admirers.

I used this tutorial but i can't seem to download it again? I already installed Lion, and the option is no longer available in the Mac App Store to download Lion again?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but here's the download math at 5KB/sec:
1MB = 200 sec = 3.33 min; 1GB = 200,000 sec = 55 hr 33 min.

Ask and Ye Shall Receive!

You have to get the recovery partition to mount. 10.7 hides it. Red commands in terminal:

diskutil list

/dev/disk0
#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER
0: GUID_partition_scheme *250.1 GB disk0
1: EFI 209.7 MB disk0s1
2: Apple_HFS Spare Mac HD 249.7 GB disk0s2
/dev/disk1
#: TYPE NAME SIZE IDENTIFIER
0: GUID_partition_scheme *750.2 GB disk1
1: EFI 209.7 MB disk1s1
2: Apple_HFS Main Mac HD 749.3 GB disk1s2
3: Apple_Boot Recovery HD 650.0 MB disk1s3

This computer has two hard drives, making it a good example. The recovery partition is on disk1, partition 3.

sudo mkdir /Volumes/Recovery

sudo mount_hfs /dev/disk1s3 /Volumes/Recovery

and the recovery partition will magically appear on your desktop. (disk utility will still refuse to acknowledge it but that's ok)

Open the Recovery HD on the desktop and see BaseSystem.dmg. Drop that to the lower left in disk utility. Burn it to a DVD or restore it to a hard drive partition at your leisure.

Restores nicely to a flash drive, but it's a smidge too big to fit on an 8gb, there's one or two irrelevent files I deleted here to squeeze it on. 16's work fine.

On my iMac running Mac OS X 10.7.2, if I launch Disk Utility, it allows me to mount the Recovery HD on the internal drive using the Mount button.

I just tried that, but the Mount button is greyed out (ie, non-selectable). What's the trick?
Or are you booting first via command-R? If so, then we're back to square one, in that unless it's already been installed, Lion isn't there.

Where is the RESET button for this thread?

I'd like to help, but i don't have Lion.

[can't anyone solve this?]

On my MBP your commands worked, except that the recovery partition is named disk0s3. Did not attempt burning yet. Will it boot the computer when burned on DVD?
Question: BaseSystem.dmg is only 455MB. Why do we need a 16GB drive for it?

It is possible that my Mount button works because I have the debug menu enabled in Disk Utility. There are a few different commands for enabling it, depending on the version. Try the one in this article:

http://macs.about.com/od/usingyourmac/qt/Enable-Disk-Utilitys-Debug-Menu.htm

Thanks. However ...

I just read Pogue's lucid discussion of creating disk images from the hard drive via Disk Utility.
I'm going to need a lot more intelligence (to comprehend it) and confidence (to put it into practice) before even thinking about doing anything like has been suggested. So, guess what isn't likely to happen ....

Ask and Ye Shall Receive. Yes, but not the relevant thing. Just the Recovery Partition on one's desktop.

The relevant thing in this thread applies to Grieber, who bought a Mac with Lion preinstalled, but has only a dialup internet connection, which we are to assume in this context is tantamount to no internet connection.

We are then to assume as a first premise that Grieber has no internet connection. The second premise is that Grieber does not wish to pay any money for a Lion installer (he in effect paid for an invisible one in buying his Lion preinstalled computer) and cannot get one free from Apple or some other helpful source (say, a good willed friend who downloads it for him and burns it to a disk).

The relevant question then is: Can Grieber get a Lion installer given those two premises? This is to ask: Can he somehow create a Lion installer from his own preinstalled Lion Mac?

The answer "seems" to be "No"

Its not hard to get the Recovery Partition on one's desktop. But that partition at 650 MBs does not contain a Lion installer. And with no internet connection, it cannot be made to produce one.

Now if somebody knows how to create a Lion installer from a Mac with Lion preinstalled (and that only) -- that will be a nice discovery. But that's what has to be discovered to be relevant here.

And the "why" is because he doesn't want to learn how to clone???

OK, I made a test: mounted the recovery HD, put the basesystem.dmg into the Disk Utility and burned it. After mounting the burned disk, I unplugged the Ethernet cable and double-clicked on the Lion installer. Only to get the message: installation cannot continue because you are not connected to the Internet.
Case closed. With dial-up, no way to reinstall Lion with this trick even if the disk would boot the computer (did not check). The installer indeed is not full.

Might not the Internet connection be required mainly for Apple to verify that this Mac is authorized to have Lion installed?

And isn't the premise of this thread that the "install" would be deriving the bulk of its files from a backup volume? (e.g., Time Machine).

"And isn't the premise of this thread that the "install" would be deriving the bulk of its files from a backup volume? (e.g., Time Machine)."

I guess, not. Lots of people do not use Time Machine. The premises were: 1. problems with dial-up customers (file too big to download); 2 (related). The real installer missing on Macs with pre-installed Lion, making it impossible to create a bootable Lion disk without going back to downloads.
For the first one, I will see but I doubt it (the installer size is much less than the original one)

I see plenty of discussion here about using SuperDuper and Time Machine. It only makes sense that one would want to use a backup to restore the most-recent, most-updated OS... not "install" version 7.0 (or whatever came with the Mac at purchase) and need to run a bunch of updates.

That is true, but a lot of deviations from the OP...

Well, the "i don't want to learn how to clone" stipulation didn't appear until post #4.

[which is almost comical, considering how easy it is.]

From the descriptions of cloning given early on in this thread, the necessity of acquiring additional software (if not skills) and the fact that Pogue mentions it nowhere in his manual (as far as I can tell so far, because it's not indexed), I suspect that it isn't either easy or comical.
In any case, as mentioned repeatedly, I'm more than happy at the moment with the restore capability I've got via Time Machine.

(a) A clone is not an installer.

And Grieber would be happy, I'm sure to clone, if he had an external HD. But maybe not, since some on this thread warn against the generally reliability of clones.

He wants the Lion installer that he would have been able to get by updating Snowy -- an installer he could put on a disk and that in the past he would got with any new Mac he bought. But now he is not able to have that because he bought a shiny new Mac with Lion preinstalled!!. Now ain't that crummy .. he says.

(b) Well, yes it is.

This is all about a guy who has no broadband and no ability to clone. But in the old days, he got an installer on a disk when he bought a new Mac. And now he doesn't. And he feels deprived. Well, I think he's got a decent case. But the times are always changing - and when they do there's always some who get screwed.

You both will have more luck at MacRumors. Those forums thrive on stuff like this. [you'll get lots of "backup" from the Windows trolls, although a few others may scoff at the 'no-broadband' defense.]

Even i don't like the idea of a 3-4 hour download (with my lower-tier DSL), but i could sleep or go ride my horse and buggy to the general store while that's going on.

Yes, (live) clones are potentially problematic... but this seems to be a special case where choices are few.


Try again. A bootable clone plus a Time Machine backup is BETTER than an "installer".

One could restore the most recently updated/stable OS version... plus the latest docs and/or apps as well, if desired. Let's not parse words so thinly. [a mere "installer" isn't the only objective worthy of consideration.]

My copy is indexed (extensively so), pages 885-909.

From the colophon:
"The author composed the index, entry by entry, using a highly tweaked FileMaker database and a clever Perl script that converted FileMaker's output into a fully formatted index."

Perhaps Sir Grelber just hasn't gotten that far (yet).

Ah yes ...
My copy is exactly so indexed. However, the referent to "it" in "it's not indexed" is "cloning" (not "manual"), as is the first instance of "it" in that main clause.
Ergo, we're on the same page(s).

Oh whew! I couldn't divine how you missed (or mist) it.

FWIW, the word 'clone' seems to be missing from Apple's lexicon as well. But that doesn't mean there isn't a functional equivalent. I suggest you check Pogue's index for the word "restore"... especially in the context of Disk Utility and its Restore tab. [i.e., doing a 'clone' with Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper and doing a 'restore' using Apple's Disk Utility are fundamentally the same operation. SD and CCC do offer a few options, which make them more attractive in certain situations.]

BTW, i think Apple's decision to favor the word 'restore' over the more universally accepted term 'clone' is unfortunate. I feel it's a poor alternative, and it even confused (misled) me at first. Albeit... a clone (backup) can be used to "restore" some disk to a previous state (e.g., as we use it with Time Machine, when restoring from a backup). But it seems strange to use the word 'restore' in the context of an initial copying procedure.

--

page 436 perhaps?

I've previously posted that it would take you a tad longer than 9 1/4 days to d/l Lion.

I know. A tad scary.
Apparently some didn't note your point, so I thought I'd add to it.
Hal Itosis is right: This thread's gotten way too long (especially for history to be a teacher).

And beyond that, it's lost direction.

I think both that it is and that the technique has been discussed, but somebody else will have to provide a link.

I moved a branch of replies to a separate thread: Spotlight

Following is Pogue's last word (of 2011) on the subject in today's New York Times:

MAC APP STORE Apple has decided that the DVD is dead. The future of video-watching and software-downloading, it thinks, is the Internet.
To that end, it has created the Mac App Store, so that we can buy our computer programs the same way we buy iPhone apps — by downloading.
The idea has some overwhelming advantages, at least if you have a fast Internet connection. You don’t worry about viruses or spyware. The installation is instantaneous; you’re not even asked for your Mac password. You never have to install patches or updated versions; the version you’re downloading is always the latest. You never have to hunt for the original installation disks; the App Store is a storage locker for everything you’ve ever bought, and it’s available from any machine.
The Mac App Store makes the old methods of software distribution look as antiquated as eight-track tapes and carbon paper.

Much as I hate it, I can't honestly say that I disagree with the concept, but the advance of technology is dependent on the availability of the new to the displaced users of the old, and when such is not the case, as with people who live in areas in which broadband is just plain 100% unavailable (or prohibitively expensive with little hope of getting cheaper), the concept loses coherence, and its adherents write off a portion of the world as beneath their notice. (And that is why Pogue's "eight-track tapes and carbon paper" analogy is faulty.)

Yowzah!*

(* Go here if you're too young to recollect this word.}

In Canada we'll certainly find the ISPs agreeing with the concept. They've been salivating at the idea of charging extra for downloads over a threshold they set, so they''l love the idea that viewers have no choice in getting movies except to download through them.

Oops! I plumb forgot about folks who are hobbled by capped bandwidth this time around; thanks for bringing them back into the mix.