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Posted By: jchuzi Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/04/11 07:23 PM
According to the article entitled Apple to release Mac OS X Lion through Mac App Store - sources, Lion will be available via download rather than on DVD. The article speculates about Apple's phasing out optical disk drives but I have another question:

What happens with Disk Utility et al.? Will the need to boot from a DVD be obviated when you want to run Repair Disk, erase a drive, change a password, etc., because of fundamental changes in the utilities and/or the OS?

Thoughts?
Posted By: Pendragon Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/04/11 08:52 PM
I suppose this will reduce the number of pirated copies of the OS (and that is fine IMNHO), but I will, alas, await until I know if: "...it's logical to presume that Apple will also offer an optical disc for people who may not have broadband."

OTOH, I have DW and TTP resident on multiple volumes so I (almost) never use the OS DVD.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/04/11 09:02 PM
A while back I speculated that the restrictions Apple has imposed on even 99¢ apps suggested the possibility of similar restrictions on OS X, possibly even beginning with Lion, and awaaay we go!

Further, but not exclusively, what happens to your CD/DVD collection?

It seems like Apple's business model is more and more directed towards strong-arming users into buying hardware.

Edit: And, of course, there will only be one OS X vendor in the entire world...kinda puts a lid on competition, no?
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/04/11 09:26 PM

Quote:
It seems like Apple's business model is more and more directed towards strong-arming users into buying hardware.

I disagree.

I think Apple's business model is providing an integrated user experience which incorporates new means of interacting with hardware and software whenever such new means allow that integrated user experience to be significantly improved.

If old means of interacting can be preserved without providing a drag on forward-looking developments, they typically are (hence Classic, Rosetta, etc.). But if maintaining older approaches compromises the effectiveness of newer features, the older approaches get axed.

AFAICT, it's always been that way, or at least during the 18 years I've been a Mac user, and particularly during the second reign of Steve Jobs. You may argue that what constitutes an "improved" user experience is debatable, but the market's reception to Apple's hardware and software products and services suggests that a very large number of users don't share your concern.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/24/11 01:58 AM
Originally Posted By: artie505
Further, but not exclusively, what happens to your CD/DVD collection?

The same thing that happened to Edison cylinders, 78, 45, and 33â…“ vinly recordings, not to mention wire, reel to reel, 8 track and cassette audio tapes, 8 and 16mm films, as well as Beta, and VHS video tape and while we are at it 35mm transparencies, and film cameras. Many pundits are already positing that video downloads have made Blueray obsolete before it has made any significant market penetration.

Originally Posted By: artie505
It seems like Apple's business model is more and more directed towards strong-arming users into buying hardware.

Given the fact that Apple is first and foremost a hardware manufacturer why should you or anyone else be surprised at this? In a previous attempt at allowing third parties to manufacture Apple Computers, Apple came within a hairs breadth of going into bankruptcy because every clone Apple that was sold cost Apple $50 out of pocket and that did not include missed sales opportunities. Apple's recent financial ascendency has been based almost entirely on hardware design and sales. Software and tunes are merely icing on the cake or a means to sell the hardware. If it weren't for hardware there would be no Apple Computer.

The software download model has been wildly successful on the iPod Touch, iPhone, and iPad. To quote dkmarsh
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Apple's business model is providing an integrated user experience which incorporates new means of interacting with hardware and software whenever such new means allow that integrated user experience to be significantly improved.
So as a customer and as a stockholder, its migration to the OS X desktop seems to me a logical and entirely rational extension of that success. My only question is how long will it take Microsoft, Dell, HP, et. al. to figure out how to do it as well.

Originally Posted By: artie505
And, of course, there will only be one OS X vendor in the entire world...kinda puts a lid on competition, no?

As far as I know Microsoft is the only Windows vendor in the entire world….that too kinda puts the lid on competition, no?

Frankly as I look at the number and breadth of apps avialable through the iTunes app store and the OS X App Store I am seeing this model coupled with the free, easy to use developer tools provided by Apple is expoosing Apple users to a wider variety of apps, more options, more developers, a more coherent UI, and all at an unprecedented low cost. If you don't think all of this isn't scaring the socks off of Apple's competition think again.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/25/11 06:06 AM
OK... So I'm a luddite and a non-visionary, both of which I'm happy with. grin If I were a PC user I'd likely still be bemoaning the loss of DOS, much the same as I don't particularly like the direction in which Apple is apparently headed.

> As far as I know Microsoft is the only Windows vendor in the entire world….that too kinda puts the lid on competition, no?

What I meant is when I search for Windows vendors I find any number of them, and same goes for OS X...today, but if Apple restricts OS X d/l's to the App Store there'll only be one vendor/source.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/25/11 04:24 PM
Originally Posted By: artie505
OK... So I'm a luddite and a non-visionary, both of which I'm happy with. grin

No argument here. grin
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/30/11 09:30 AM
Developer build of OS X 10.6.8 preps for Mac App Store install for Lion

Posted By: Hal Itosis Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/30/11 09:58 PM

Hmm, i wonder if we can "point" the "installer" towards another volume... or if it will only place Lion on the current boot volume.

Please tell me that DVDs will also be available.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/30/11 10:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis

Hmm, i wonder if we can "point" the "installer" towards another volume... or if it will only place Lion on the current boot volume.

Please tell me that DVDs will also be available.

I hear an echo!
Posted By: Hal Itosis Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/30/11 10:15 PM
Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis

Hmm, i wonder if we can "point" the "installer" towards another volume... or if it will only place Lion on the current boot volume.

Please tell me that DVDs will also be available.

I hear an echo!

Being a seasoned iOS user (both iPad and iPod), i know the pain of downloading OS updates. I have bottom-of-the-barrel DSL... so even the paltry 680 meg iOS takes me almost 3 hours to download... and we have to download the *full* deal every time (not a delta, not a combo... the whole megillah). And since iPad ≠ iPod, i have to do that twice.

How many gigs will the Lion download be?
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 05/30/11 10:35 PM
I've just upped my DSL to 7Mb, which translates to a bit under 800Kbps at best, and even at that speed a 7Gb (around what an SL disc is) d/l will take too long!

Installing to a pristine volume and imaging the results for future use seems like a nice idea, but I doubt we'll be able to do it. frown

I guess my non-visionary persona extends to my not having cable. tongue
Posted By: Hal Itosis Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/01/11 04:06 AM
Well, it's June now.
Where's Lion? (or 10.6.8 even)
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/01/11 09:41 AM
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Well, it's June now.
Where's Lion? (or 10.6.8 even)
Apple issues third build of Mac OS X 10.6.8 to developers

Posted By: jchuzi Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/01/11 02:17 PM
Apple may offer free iCloud services with aggressively priced Mac OS X Lion

Posted By: joemikeb Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/07/11 02:19 AM
Originally Posted By: artie505
OK... So I'm a luddite and a non-visionary, both of which I'm happy with. grin If I were a PC user I'd likely still be bemoaning the loss of DOS, much the same as I don't particularly like the direction in which Apple is apparently headed.

There is no apparentlly about it. Did you catch the item in the Keynote that the App Store is already the largest software distributor in the world? Many developers marketing through the App Store are becoming overnight millionaires. Established software developers who have switched to App store distribution have seen sales increases of not 100% but 100 times.

From the reaction of the developers at the WWDC today they appear to be in full support of the direction Apple is taking if for no other reason than, to coin a phrase that Steve repeated several times today" It just works. And in the process it is making a lot of independent developers wealthy.

IMHO not all change is good and I am seldom, if ever, in favor of anything that tends to decrease competition, but so far it seems any shortcomings in the App Store concept are far outweighed by the positives.
Posted By: Hal Itosis Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/07/11 02:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
Being a seasoned iOS user (both iPad and iPod), i know the pain of downloading OS updates. <snip> And since iPad ≠ iPod, i have to do that twice.

Reportedly, iOS 5 will unite all (eligible) models and end my multi-iDevice download woe.

However...
Originally Posted By: Hal Itosis
How many gigs will the Lion download be?

4 gig. "in-place". So i guess it's not a dmg that we can speedily apply to other Macs in-house. Each individual Mac will need to do its own 4-gig download/upgrade.

Folks still running Leopard (who've been holding off on 10.6) will be left out in the cold. They'll need to obtain Snowy first (to get the MAS) in order to move up. I.e., no "direct" Leo->Lion pathway.

Interesting (i guess).

The price is nice: one $30 fee covers all Macs tied to a particular MAS account (user).
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/07/11 05:43 AM
> Many developers marketing through the App Store are becoming overnight millionaires. Established software developers who have switched to App store distribution have seen sales increases of not 100% but 100 times.

Wow! And without even any help from me. smile

I wonder how much of those sales is real, i.e. ongoing, and how much is "euphoric," i.e. people going short-term nuts buying stuff because they now know it's there? (I've read that when iPhones first came out many people who totaled their purchases after the euphoria wore off were flabbergasted by how quickly 99¢-a-pop adds up.)

> IMHO not all change is good and I am seldom, if ever, in favor of anything that tends to decrease competition, but so far it seems any shortcomings in the App Store concept are far outweighed by the positives.

For developers, no argument (apparently), but for us users, I don't know that all the results are in yet.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/07/11 05:55 AM
> Each individual Mac will need to do its own 4-gig download/upgrade.

That'll require an enormous amount of time, maybe expense, too, for many households; I wonder what the disc policy will be...whether we non-cable luddites will be stuck cooling our heels for hours?
Posted By: alternaut Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/07/11 04:00 PM
Originally Posted By: artie505
...we non-cable luddites will be stuck cooling our heels for hours...

How about people relying on slow satellite or (dare I even remind you) dialup connections? For these and similar concerns, check out today's entries in MacInTouch's Apple Reader Report.
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/07/11 06:16 PM
Can somebody explain what's gonna happen to numerous applications requiring PPC code? I hear that even some parts of Adobe CS5 still have a PPC code and will not, therefore, run under Lion. I also read yesterday that somebody installed Rosetta from SL disk into Lion but it refused to open PPC applications. Any third-party emulator on the horizon? Apple is doing a big monopolist disservice to its loyals.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/07/11 08:21 PM
It sounds as if this comes as a surprise. Assuming you are a follower of Apple you should know Apple has always supported hardware and software on a "sliding scale". The new Mac you buy today will be obsolete and not supported in June 2018. This allows Apple to move their product forward adding new features and functionalities without dragging a too huge tail of old out of date code along. This is one of the reasons Apple can consistently turn a new released of OS X in 18 months while it takes Microsoft 3 to 5 years. It also helps keeps the OS X footprint at a reasonable size and in general contributes to a system that is cleaner, faster, and more efficient. I am only plagerizing a little when I add, "I pass over the fact this contributes to Apple's ability to sell OS X 10.7 for $29.99"

Rosetta was provided in Leopard to allow developers time to rewrite and optimize their code to run on the Intel platform. Rosetta is an optional install in Snow Leopard to ease users pain in updating and modernizing their software. AFIK Apple has not made any secret of their plans to do away with Rosetta and just as support for the PPC was dropped in Snow Leopard, the time has come to drop that support for the applications as well.

If, in fact, there is PPC code embedded in Adobe CS5 applications, that has to be Adobe's problem. Apple has given them plenty of notice of their intentions and if the PPC code is there it is because Adobe chose to leave it there. As far as Adobe's offerings go there are credible alternatives to many of their products in the App Store at a fraction of the cost.

As to what is to happen to all the applications that require PPC code, I can offer some suggestions:
  • Choose not to uprade to Lion or to purchase a new Mac becauese it will have to run Lion
  • Lean on the developer to get on the stick and upgrade the app to 21st centgury technology
  • Replace the app with a newer app from the App Store -- there are literally thousands of them there. For me the hard part is deciding which one to choose and generally at very reasonable prices
Posted By: RHV Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/07/11 09:42 PM
"in place"!!! So I download Lion from the MAS but I can't keep the download as a file as I could if it came to me as a .dmg. That's what "in place" means? If so, what a nuisance!

Okay let's suppose the nuisance. So I've installed Lion on my only Lion capable device -- my late 2009 iMac, having first updated it to 10.6.8. But later I want to do an erase and re-install of Lion on that computer. (Not a restore from my external HD. Don't ask why.)

So do I have to pay another $30 for the second download of Lion?

I think that I've already read that if I have a number of Lion capable physical devices bought from Apple in my name, the one payment of $30 covers downloads of "OS X Lion" (note the changed name) on up to and including five of those devices. But does that mean that I get five downloads (or even two) of Lion on my one and only Lion capable device for $30?

All will be revealed by Apple in the fullness of its time. But what will likely be revealed on this matter? Yeah, I know, speculation is usually a waste of time. But for old retired farts like me speculation is always fun. My guess is that Apple will charge me for the second (and additional) downloads but will also make available a Lion installation disk -- not free of course -- to satisfy many, many different needs or desires. I pity the poor IT guy who has to service 100 Macs from a Lion download to each Mac!

Posted By: Hal Itosis Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/08/11 04:29 AM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
As to what is to happen to all the applications that require PPC code,

Heh... some of us (probably you among them) can recall when PPC was the "new thing" and 68K was current. shocked

Same story, different day. smile
Posted By: Hal Itosis Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/08/11 04:39 AM
Originally Posted By: RHV
So do I have to pay another $30 for the second download of Lion?

Methinks not. Somehow your account at MAS should retain the record that "you" are allowed to own Lion (on any Mac duly linked to that account)... ad infinitum.

Originally Posted By: RHV
I think that I've already read that if I have a number of Lion capable physical devices bought from Apple in my name, the one payment of $30 covers downloads of "OS X Lion" (note the changed name) on up to and including five of those devices. But does that mean that I get five downloads (or even two) of Lion on my one and only Lion capable device for $30?

Again, that's not my read of the situation. I think that "all" Macs linked to that particular iTunes/MAS authorization account are allowed to be Lionized. IOW, it's not as much about selling OS software as it used to be. So —once you've purchased Lion for $30 —if you want to go out and buy 100 Snow Macs and put Lion on them... then go for it, freely. (unlike Microsoft, Apple's cash cow is hardware sales). Have fun authorizing and downloading those 100 upgrades BTW. wink

I think that's true for the OS... but maybe not for suites like iWork.

But honestly... idunno yet.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/08/11 06:35 AM
Originally Posted By: alternaut
Originally Posted By: artie505
...we non-cable luddites will be stuck cooling our heels for hours...

How about people relying on slow satellite or (dare I even remind you) dialup connections? For these and similar concerns, check out today's entries in MacInTouch's Apple Reader Report.

Not to mention Rita and others who, like her, are hobbled by capped bandwidth... Aaargh! frown

I didn't forget about non-DSL users, rather I posted kinda postulating a "threshold d/l speed" that would be the dividing line between our being able to acquire "hard" media or not, with the low and high ends being "givens," but with DSL users possibly being stuck in some sort of middle-ground, grey area.

Actually, since I've got both an iBook G4 with a built-in modem and access to a friend's dial-up account (maintained to perpetuate an e-mail address) I've been wondering if I'll be able to spoof a dial-up connection if it comes to that.

In closing, though... I think the most important piece of info in your linked doc is Burning A Lion Boot Disc!
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/08/11 09:44 AM

I note that certain language on Get Lion in July. Only from the Mac App Store.—including that page title—hints that Lion will be available, eventually, in a more traditional form:

Originally Posted By: www.apple.com/macosx/how-to-buy/
Just make sure you have what you need to get your hands on Lion the minute it’s available...

...To upgrade on day one:


Cynics among us might theorize that the point of not being more forthcoming about other options is to sell a bunch of copies of Snow Leopard in June, but it's also possible that Apple is simply allowing the early birds to skip the manufacturing/packaging/distribution lag between Golden Master and retail disc. (Since no date in July is specified, that probably means we're not quite at the Golden Master stage yet.)

In any event, it's clearly in Apple's interest to drive as many Lion purchasers as possible to the Mac App Store: a) to realize the Snow Leopard sales from folks running Leopard on Lion-worthy hardware; b) to reduce production/distribution costs of physical media as much as possible; and c) to maximize the PR value of 100,000 (or however many) sales on day one! all without leaving your home! or even having to enter credit card data!
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/08/11 04:41 PM
As I understand it if you buy a piece of software from MAS or the Applke Store that same software may be installed on up to five "authorized" devices. From experience with applications purchased on MAS you can install or re-install an unlimited number of times on any given "authorized" devoice.

I discovered this in the very early days of the App Store when I was having difficulty getting some MAS apps to installl and run properly. There is only one way to enable a reinsall which is to uninstall the app, but once it is uninstalled the App Store will happily install any app you have paid for.
Posted By: RHV Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/14/11 02:20 AM
"4 gig. "in-place". So i guess it's not a dmg that we can speedily apply to other Macs in-house. Each individual Mac will need to do its own 4-gig download/upgrade."

Apparently there is a hidden .dmg. See this:

http://macs.about.com/od/macoperatingsystems/qt/Create-A-Bootable-Copy-Of-Os-X-Lion.htm


Posted By: Hal Itosis Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/14/11 04:43 AM
Originally Posted By: RHV

What fun.
THANKS!

Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/14/11 06:51 AM
You missed Burning A Lion Boot Disc here.
Posted By: RHV Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/14/11 03:25 PM
No I saw it (and lots of others like it). I just preferred the wording in the site I referred to.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/14/11 04:52 PM
Originally Posted By: RHV
No I saw it (and lots of others like it). I just preferred the wording in the site I referred to.

Probably why my post was directed at Hal rather than at you. wink

Edit: Sorry for the double post.
Posted By: RHV Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/14/11 09:47 PM
I goofed Artie. I didn't read carefully. Your "missed" comment was directed at Hal. I thought at me. So I responded to you. Sorry.

This whole episode is kinda funny. Apple gave us some early info on Lion -- a kind of a tease, since a major change in several ways is coming from Apple this July. So we were all scrambling around trying to supplant the information tease. And there's been some modest success in that scrambling. Still lots is unknown. July will tell the whole story. I've never been as interested in a Mac OS X update as I have in this one. I'm going to have trash my other iMac -- a well working PPC job with Leopard on it --to get Lion on both.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/14/11 10:12 PM
> I'm going to have trash my other iMac -- a well working PPC job with Leopard on it --to get Lion on both.

Out of curiosity, then, why didn't you trash it to get Snow Leopard on "both(?)?"

I'm with you on the interest...waiting to see how things play out and thinking about what configuration of Macs and partitions I want to end up with...maybe even save my Panther iBook for nothing other than Classic Environment and OED2. confused
Posted By: RHV Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/15/11 01:39 AM
What I meant is: One can't put snowy on my 2004 PPC iMac. So I'll trash it (too slow anyway) and buy another intel iMac. I already have a late 2009 intel iMac.

I've bought a lot of Macs in my time. Bought one of the first 100,000 Macs in 1984 -- the guys all signed their names on the inside of the back panel.
Posted By: Hal Itosis Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/19/11 01:52 AM
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Cynics among us might theorize that the point of not being more forthcoming about other options is to sell a bunch of copies of Snow Leopard in June, but it's also possible that Apple is simply allowing the early birds to skip the manufacturing/packaging/distribution lag between Golden Master and retail disc. (Since no date in July is specified, that probably means we're not quite at the Golden Master stage yet.)

In any event, it's clearly in Apple's interest to drive as many Lion purchasers as possible to the Mac App Store: a) to realize the Snow Leopard sales from folks running Leopard on Lion-worthy hardware; b) to reduce production/distribution costs of physical media as much as possible; and c) to maximize the PR value of 100,000 (or however many) sales on day one! all without leaving your home! or even having to enter credit card data!


This weird pdf (try searching it for "application") seems to be hosted on macrumors.com:
"OS X Lion for Business and Education" <-PDF

It seems to indicate that multiple-installs won't necessitate multiple downloads (at least for business and/or edu folks buying in bulk), and it talks about some "Install Mac OS X Lion" program in the /Applications folder (and the Dock).

I tried to google for some similar info at apple.com, but no luck.
Posted By: RHV Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/21/11 01:11 AM
As for a single user installing Lion, I'm guessing that this will be pretty much on target:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1173920
Posted By: alternaut Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 06/21/11 02:43 PM
Some more info on that PDF: Apple offers Lion upgrade details for business, education customers.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/08/11 06:29 PM
For those of you who don't like Apple's App Store concept I don't think Apple is worried since they have already passed 15,000,000,000 (fifteen Billion) apps downloaded mark.
Posted By: Virtual1 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/09/11 03:55 PM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
For those of you who don't like Apple's App Store concept I don't think Apple is worried since they have already passed 15,000,000,000 (fifteen Billion) apps downloaded mark.


Oh I'm sure it's just a passing fad...
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/11/11 05:38 AM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
For those of you who don't like Apple's App Store concept I don't think Apple is worried since they have already passed 15,000,000,000 (fifteen Billion) apps downloaded mark.

Excerpted from Number of MAC Users | Number Of | How Many:

Quote:
W3Counter’s latest Global Web Stats, published in May 2010, report that the Mac OS X operating system has a 7.83% market share. Taking into account that there must be about 1.2 billion personal computers in use (according to Forrester Research, Inc.), the Mac user population is currently about 93.96 million. In three years, the number of Mac users has nearly doubled.

This fact is verified on : June 24, 2010. All facts are verified every 6 month after the last modification.

Even if the number of Mac users has doubled during the past year, the 188 million users would have to have d/l'ed an average of 80 apps each to reach the 15 billion d/l threshold.

Color me skeptical. shocked (150 million seems like a far more realistic number.)

Have you got a source for your number?

Edit 2: Or does that number include sales of the iApp store (in which case it still seems huge), which would put it in a whole different perspective?
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/11/11 09:32 AM

Actually, it appears to me that the 15 billion figure refers only to iOS applications: Apple - Press Info - Apple’s App Store Downloads Top 15 Billion.

Regardless, I think joemikeb's point is that the "app store" concept has proven to accelerate rather than hinder software sales.
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/11/11 11:58 PM
another source has a similar number for Mac computers worldwide - over 80M
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2010/06/prweb4074264.htm
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/12/11 08:00 AM
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

Actually, it appears to me that the 15 billion figure refers only to iOS applications: Apple - Press Info - Apple’s App Store Downloads Top 15 Billion.

Regardless, I think joemikeb's point is that the "app store" concept has proven to accelerate rather than hinder software sales.

I'm not all that certain that the iApp Store's success can be extrapolated to the Mac App Store for several reasons...
  • The iApp Store was "present at the creation" and, rather than beginning life competing with pre-existing solutions, began it as the only game in town.
    space
  • I posted a while back that my personal observation has been that friends who don't run a single 3rd party app or utility on their Macs have gone wild with iApps, and that appears to be supported by this CNN ( tongue ) article that tells us that "The average iOS device owner will download 83 apps in 2011 [....]" On the other hand, I doubt that any, other than a very few in-depth, hard-core Mac users are running that much 3rd party stuff in total, let alone d/l'ing anywhere near that much in a single year. (Emphasis added)
    space
  • The same article also tells us that "82% of the apps in Apple's store are free. The 18% that users have to pay for have an ASP of $1.44," and I suspect that the 82% and the $1.44 are significantly higher and lower, respectively, than their Mac App Store equivalents.
Accordingly, while I'm not suggesting that the MAS will be anything other than another successful Apple venture, I do wonder whether it can come close to mirroring the iApp Store's success.

I suggest a poll, the results of which may be telling, asking FTM posters how many 3rd party apps, i.e. apps that weren't present on their device out of the box, they're running on their Macs as opposed to how many they're running on their iPhones (if they've got an iPhone). Free v "for pay" would be interesting to know, as would total cost, but I suspect that those numbers may be beyond many people's ability to produce.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/12/11 11:31 AM
Originally Posted By: artie505
...this CNN ( tongue ) article that tells us that "The average iOS device owner will download 83 apps in 2011 [....]

..."82% of the apps in Apple's store are free. The 18% that users have to pay for have an ASP of $1.44..."

By my math, that mean the average iOS device owner will spend (.18 x 83 x 1.44=) $21.51 on applications this year. If your friends were representative of Mac owners as a whole (not a point I'd cede without more scientific corroboration, but that's a different issue), then the $21.51 a year they'd have to average in Mac App Store purchases for that outlet to maintain the same revenue per user ratio as the [iOS] App Store doesn't seem to be much of a stretch.

Since the App Store infrastructure (iTunes, Apple ID/credit card database, developer revenue sharing model, etc.) is already in place, the startup cost to Apple of deploying the Mac App Store is pretty much just the cost of developing the Mac App Store application.

Let's not forget that the iPhone and iPod Touch sold extremely well prior to the introduction of the App Store, which strongly suggests that the habit of purchasing iOS apps was acquired after folks already had meaningful relationships with their iOS devices. I suspect a similar dynamic is already underway with the Mac App Store.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/13/11 06:18 PM
Since my post addressed Apple's crowing about the 15 billion d/l's, not the revenue they've generated, you response is pretty much non-responsive.

And a history of people "running amok" in a mostly fee, and otherwise cheap, candy store does not suggest that they'll do the same in a relatively pricey department store.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/13/11 10:02 PM

Quote:
Since my post addressed Apple's crowing about the 15 billion d/l's, not the revenue they've generated, you response is pretty much non-responsive.

Actually, your post expressed doubts about the ability of the Mac App Store to duplicate the iOS App Store's success:

Quote:
I'm not all that certain that the iApp Store's success can be extrapolated to the Mac App Store...

Apparently, defining "success" in financial terms is an unorthodox position to take in regard to an entity with "Store" in its name.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/18/11 09:44 AM
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

Quote:
Since my post addressed Apple's crowing about the 15 billion d/l's, not the revenue they've generated, you response is pretty much non-responsive.

Actually, your post expressed doubts about the ability of the Mac App Store to duplicate the iOS App Store's success:

Quote:
I'm not all that certain that the iApp Store's success can be extrapolated to the Mac App Store...

Apparently, defining "success" in financial terms is an unorthodox position to take in regard to an entity with "Store" in its name.

You took a big swing at your own bad pitch with your sarcasm bat, and you missed...

...and what you missed is the fact that nobody other than you has injected the notion of financial success into this discussion: Apple's press release trumpeted 15 billion d/l's, not their financial impact, and I addressed only those 15 billion d/l's.

Originally Posted By: Apple - Press Info
"In just three years, the revolutionary App Store has grown to become the most exciting and successful software marketplace the world has ever seen,” said Philip Schiller, Apple’s senior vice president of Worldwide Product Marketing. “Thank you to all of our amazing developers who have filled it with over 425,000 of the coolest apps and to our over 200 million iOS users for surpassing 15 billion downloads."

The inference I draw from Apple's press release is that the iOS App Store was a "proof-of-concept."

Apple, in its wisdom, realized that it could make big bucks selling software if the buying process could be elevated to the "Let's go down to the mall and go shopping" level, and the iOS App Store has presumably achieved that goal. Its roughly 15 million d/l's per day since its inception and projected 83 d/l's per user in 2011 loudly proclaim that people are not only going shopping...they're doing it regularly, if not frequently, and the assumption that the iOS App Store's 82% free and the rest cheap price structure has been a major contributing factor is not much of a stretch.

Now, having ascertained that people will shop for software, Apple is hoping they'll be as free with their money as they are with their time and that meaningful financial success will follow, but with the Mac App Store being at the focus of that hope...achieving the financial success the iOS App Store has not and never will achieve with its present price structure.
Posted By: MacManiac Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/18/11 01:00 PM
I just re-viewed the June 6 WWDC keynote and one of the comments that seemed most cogent was about how software ISN'T Apple's key focus, but rather how important software (and a huge bunch of dedicated third-party software developers) are viewed in supporting the HARDWARE that Apple produces....I can't quote it directly, but it was almost a throwaway line during Steve Jobs' closing comments.

....or maybe I was just hearing more than was said....

Regardless, it makes perfect sense to develop a mechanism to funnel quality (vetted) software through a single point source if your goal is to continue to deliver more hardware.....if it were solely the profit to be made on software distribution alone that was the driving factor, then the App Store model would most likely be quite different.
Posted By: Virtual1 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/18/11 06:22 PM
Apple has always first and foremost been a hardware seller. The software exists mainly to encourage and promote hardware sales. This is in part due to the relatively lower availability of software for windows. It's easy to name just a handful of key pieces of software that have helped put Apple where they are today, many of which were cheap, or free:

- AppleSoft BASIC
- HyperCard
- VisiCalc
- AppleWorks
- Lotus 123
- MS Office
- FileMaker
- Developer Tools
- Final Cut
- Logic
- iTunes
- iPhoto
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/19/11 12:02 AM

artie, I'm not sure where the bee in your bonnet originates here.

Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
...I think joemikeb's point is that the "app store" concept has proven to accelerate rather than hinder software sales. [emphasis added]

Originally Posted By: artie505
I'm not all that certain that the iApp Store's success can be extrapolated to the Mac App Store...[emphasis added]

You expressed dubiousness—about whether or not the Mac App Store can succeed in the way that the iOS App Store has—in reply to my statement regarding the effect of the "app store" concept on software sales. So either we were discussing, among other things, software sales, or you were making a "pretty much non-responsive reply" to me.

Be that as it may, it's entirely unclear to me how you're evaluating the success of the iOS App Store, and thus unclear how you think the Mac App Store would need to perform in order to be credited with similar success. Here's my view:

I think the success of the iOS App Store lies in having established Apple's domination of the mobile-device-as-application-appliance market. This domination, arising initially from the fact that Apple beat everyone else out of the gate, is due partly to the ease of acquiring apps from iOS devices, including the ease of paying for them; partly to the vetting process Apple employs, which is highly effective at ensuring that apps pretty much Just Work and that malware is excluded (as opposed to the anything-goes Android model); and last but certainly not least, partly to the enormous popularity among developers of programming for iOS. Partly that's a matter of the sophistication and simplicity of Apple's developer tools, and partly it's a matter of the potential profits to be had by developing an iOS hit.

There's a gold rush aura surrounding the iOS App Store from the developer persepective. As with a literal gold rush, many more will dip their pans into the stream than will come up with nuggets. But the 2.5 billion dollars Apple had paid to developers as of June 2011's WWDC represents a whole different magnitude of incentive than that available on any other mobile platform. That's why the calculations I made using the data you provided are so relevant to the question of "success;" they result in a revenue stream which continues to attract many of the most talented developers out there.

I agree with your premise that the Mac App Store will feature fewer apps, and that those which aren't free will tend to cost more than iOS apps, and that Mac users will, on average, purchase fewer of them than iOS users. I think, though, that Mac users of 2011 and beyond will purchase more apps than Mac users have in the past, and, furthermore, that they'll allocate the money they do spend differently: less on big-ticket products from mainstream software companies, more on a smorgasbord of creative products from smaller developlers. And this won't so much be due to existing Mac users changing long established behaviors as it will to the ongoing rapid growth of a new user base drawn in large part from folks who were attracted to Apple's products via iOS devices, and are therefore completely comfortable with the "app store" concept and the computer-as-application-appliance mode; that's how they already do things.

The bottom line is that if the revenue the Mac App Store generates is sufficient to attract the same type of interest on the part of developers that the iOS App Store does, they'll be happy to develop for the Mac. Lots of them. Which means lots of apps to choose from, for folks running an OS with app purchasing built right in, folks who are used to purchasing apps from their devices with one-click ease. Which means lots of apps purchased, which means lots of developer revenues, and so on.

Notice I said, "if." Never having purchased an iOS app, precluded by hardware limitations from visiting the Mac App store, I'm certainly incapable of shedding any light on the probabilities from personal experience. The point is, the Mac App Store doesn't need to achieve 15 billion downloads in 3 years to be a success; it simply needs to provide an experience for both users and developers that's markedly superior to those offered by other platforms. I'm inclined to think that it will, but, truly, your guess is as good as mine.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 04:25 PM

Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

I note that certain language on Get Lion in July. Only from the Mac App Store.—including that page title—hints that Lion will be available, eventually, in a more traditional form...

From Mac OS X Lion Available Today From the Mac App Store:

Quote:
Users who do not have broadband access at home, work or school can download Lion at Apple retail stores and later this August, Lion will be made available on a USB thumb drive through the Apple Store® (www.apple.com) for $69 (US).

Posted By: roger Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 04:51 PM
well? who has it? laugh

quick question: multiple installs? will my wife and daughter and I all need to purchase it separately, or can I log into their App Stores with my Apple ID and get the download? I've read this whole thread through, and followed the links, but I'm still not clear. I'm not trying to scam Apple, but I don't want to pay three times if once is enough!
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 05:56 PM
I have installed three copies of Lion via the App Store and their DRM requires each to be a separate download. However if you are using the same App Store account you only pay for the first download and the rest are free (up to I believe a total of five installs).
Posted By: roger Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 06:59 PM
thanks, Joe. I will give it a go!
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 08:04 PM
If you are planning on buying a new MacBook Air or Mac Mini, keep this in mind: New MacBook Airs, Mac minis feature Lion Internet Recovery disc-less repair

. These machines do not have an optical drive and it looks as if Apple may make this a trend in other models.
Posted By: Virtual1 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 09:12 PM
$70 for a $10 flash drive that has $30 in software on it? sheeeeesh.
Posted By: Virtual1 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 09:21 PM
Originally Posted By: jchuzi
These machines do not have an optical drive and it looks as if Apple may make this a trend in other models.


Wouldn't surprise me. They shipped the driveless airs with USB recovery recently. Really, what's easier to use, media on a flash drive or optical drive? I'd rather buy something on a flash drive personally. In 10 yrs our big filing cabinet drawer full of software boxes will have been replaced with a coffee cup on the back of the desk full of flash drives.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 10:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Virtual1
$70 for a $10 flash drive that has $30 in software on it? sheeeeesh.

It's not just the software, though; you're paying, in effect, a one-time charge for 4+ gigabytes of bandwidth you don't have available with your interent connection.

It's clearly in Apple's interest to have the entire world be high-speed and wireless. Those who hold out can expect to pay a surcharge. That's what the extra 30 bucks is.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 10:08 PM

Lion Internet Recovery appears to be available for any Lion-compatible computer with access to a high-speed internet connection. See OS X Lion: About Lion Recovery.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/20/11 11:58 PM

Mac OS X 10.7 Lion: the Ars Technica review

Installing Lion: Our complete guide (Macworld)
Posted By: roger Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/21/11 12:09 AM
up and running, and liking it so far. took me a bit to get used to the reverse scrolling (I know you can change it, but it's good for me to change once in a while, eh? wink ).

my fans are racing however, so I'm looking into that. Mail is cool, Safari is very fast. I like MIssion Control.

so far so good!

edit: ok, as for the fans, there's a process called "Report Crash" that pops in and out of Activity Monitor and is sometimes using more than 50% of the CPU. any ideas? it just starts up again if I Quit it from Activity Monitor.
Posted By: grelber Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/21/11 09:10 AM
I really don't like people moving my cheese. To understand that, check out David Pogue's Upgrading to Lion Means Embracing the iPad.

And the assembled multitudes wonder why I'm in no hurry to upgrade.

In fact, given that Apple via Mac is all about embracing things about which I don't give a damn [to phrase it kindly], I may just switch over to some PC or another or just forget about computers altogether.

Whatever happened to real progress, by which I mean the goal of having computers do our bidding and not vice versa? Wasn't that the object of the exercise, or have I been swept off to some perverted Land of Oz?
Posted By: MicroMatTech3 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/21/11 06:09 PM
Thanks for the link to the Ars Technica review. The page about file system changes (Core Storage), and the information about data integrity before it, are quite interesting.

I noticed that Apple's TechNote 1150, the long page about the HFS+ Volume Format, is gone. I hope a revision will be posted.
Posted By: tacit Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/22/11 12:05 AM
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I have installed three copies of Lion via the App Store and their DRM requires each to be a separate download. However if you are using the same App Store account you only pay for the first download and the rest are free (up to I believe a total of five installs).


You can actually burn DVD install media, if you like.

Download the Lion package. Right-click the downloaded file and choose "Show Package Contents" from the downloaded installer. You'll see a folder called Contents. Open it. Inside you'll see another folder called Shared Support. Open that.

In the Shared Support folder, you will find a file named "InstallESD.dmg". As the name suggests, this is a complete, bootable disk image for Lion, ready to be burned to DVD with Disk Utility.

Run Disk Utility. Drag the InstallESD.dmg into the Disk Utility Volumes pane on the left-hand side of the window. Click on it and then click Burn. Viola! Your own bootable Lion installer DVD!
Posted By: MicroMatTech3 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/22/11 12:32 AM
I was surprised to learn that the 3.76 GB "Install Mac OS X Lion" file is downloaded to the /Applications folder, not /~/Downloads/. In my case, the file was not visible in /Applications until the download was nearly complete.

The installation file deletes itself after the installation is complete if it is still located in /Applications. To avoid having to download the file again, quit the Lion Installer before proceeding with the installation, and duplicate the installation file or move it to another location. Then relaunch the installer:

Save Your Bandwidth! Prevent OS X Lion Installer From Self-Destructing!.

Posted By: Dave Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/24/11 06:57 AM
The link to David Pogue's article that was posted above produces a "Please Log In" page on the New York Times site, so for those of us who don't want to bother with enabling another cookie and registering, here's the same article on another site:
Upgrading to Lion Means Embracing the iPad

The article confirms the conclusion I had reached earlier, after looking at Apple's page about OS X Lion. For what I do, I just don't need it. For the time being at least, I'll just stick with 10.6.8.

If you remember when Word 5 came out, I'm one of those guys who was perfectly happy with Word 4, because it allowed me to do everything I needed to do. For all practical purposes, the only applications I ever use are Firefox, GraphicConverter, iTunes, Terminal, and TextEdit.

My 1.83-gig Mac Mini already has all kinds of stuff I have never used, including Address Book, Automator, Chess, Dictionary, Font Book, Front Row, GarageBand (tried to edit a song with it once and couldn't figure out how to make a rhythmically-perfect splice so I forgot about it), iCal, iChat, Image Capture, iMovie, iPhoto, iSync, Mail, Photo Booth, Stickies, and Time Machine. They're all just taking up space that could be used for more music.

I'm sure there are many who will benefit from Lion, but when I looked at it, the first word that came to mind was "bloatware".
Posted By: MicroMatTech3 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/24/11 04:07 PM
The security improvements in Lion seem to me to be getting less attention than they deserve:

Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security
Posted By: Virtual1 Re: Downloading Lion (OS 10.7) - 07/25/11 09:45 PM
Originally Posted By: MicroMatTech3
The security improvements in Lion seem to me to be getting less attention than they deserve:

Major overhaul makes OS X Lion king of security


Anyone else notice the "disable encryption" option in disk utility? wondering exactly what that's for...
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