The forums I regularly haunt seem to be dropping off in traffic recently. Maybe we need to advertise or something?

Let's hope it was because of the holidays.

I've noticed a precipitous drop in traffic lately in ALL the forums I read regularly--not just technical forums, but also forums on all the other topics I'm interested in.

One possibility is that the drop is related to the holidays. But that aside, i think long-term we are seeing big changes in the way people use the Internet. It seems like stand-alone, single-topic forums in general are losing popularity, as more and more forums move to places like Facebook--where a person can join a lot f different communities with a lot of different subjects in one place using one logon.

So I suspect that what we're experiencing right now is something like what old dial-up BBS systems started experiencing in the early 1990s...changes in the way people use their computers left most of those systems behind.

What does that mean to FTM? It means that if we're still going to be around five years from now, we're going to have to change. How we change, though, is something I'm not sure of.

are there plans for a Facebook page for FTM? or is there one already and I've missed it?

What would be the point?
The forums ostensibly serve the same function, n'est-ce pas?
Besides Facebook and other such places are sinkholes of doom, IMHO. And many, such as I, refuse to patronize such.

> And many, such as I, refuse to patronize such.

Hear, hear!!!

well, I happen to enjoy Facebook, and if, as tacit states, that's where a lot of forum (not just FTM) traffic is going, then it would make sense if we are going to continue, to make a presence there.

and might I humbly suggest that Facebook is what the user makes of it, and one might perhaps adopt a less ostrich-like approach. I have found it a wonderful, easy way to stay in touch with my friends around the world, coming as they do, from many internet locations, not to mention my family.

Your point must be well-taken; if Facebook is where the world is going, FTM's got to be there (although I can't begin to guess in what capacity).

But "ostrich-like approach" is a pretty one-sided, thoroughly non-objective way of characterizing my attitude (and, likely, grelber's).

In my world, social networking is talking to the person on the next barstool, the person on the other end of the phone line...you get the point.

I dig your point about keeping up with friends around the world, but even if I were in such a position I'd do it with Skype.

I don't remember the name of the Asimov book - It may be "Caves of Steel" - in which Lije Bailey and R Daneel Olivaw are sent to investigate a murder on a planet where nobody ever sees anybody else in person...where all social contact is hologrammatic.

But I clearly remember the reaction of one of the characters when told that the pair wanted to see her...along the lines of "But you're seeing me right now," followed by total astonishment when informed that that wasn't the "see" they were talking about.

And while many Americans are heading in that direction, I'm full-tilt in reverse.

And, finally, Facebook has an aspect that I dislike intensely: Once you go public on Facebook, everybody out of your whole past somehow finds you, leaving you in the position of having to either accept their "Friend" offers and deal with them or reject their offers and hurt them.

Naaah!

I haven't floated any plans for a Facebook version of FTM. I'm not sure what the best solution for a post-stand-alone-forum world is, but I do suspect that moving FTM to Facebook (and for the record, I use Facebook but I don't especially like it) would damage the sense of community that's one of the things I love about it here.

I don't like the way Facebook forums work. I also don't think that simply jumping ship is the best solution. It seems to me that it might buy time, but eventually something will come along to replace Facebook; rather than simply jumping from one new thing to the next, I think it might be more helpful to try to figure out what the shape of the future is for Net forums and get there ahead of anyone else.

But as to what that might look like, I got nothin'. Anyone?

And if anyone can identify the publicly traded corporation that's going to spearhead it, pleeeze...

I'm with artie and mostly with tacit, re Facebook (and similar so-called social medial, which I consider to be more accurately described as "antisocial' media, given their virtuality).
I partcularly dislike the lack of privacy and security associated with these places. So, if I have to give up that privacy and security, then I'll be a recluse (and love every antisocial minute of it, if I give it any consideration at all).

well, we obviously have different feelings about it, and that's cool, I just get bothered by the "Facebook is evil" tone that I hear so often. I'm not an FB apologist, but it can, and is, used wisely and to great effect by many. Facebook doesn't have my credit card info, nor are my address and phone number out there for all to see. It is really not much different from a "regular" forum in the level of activity any one person can choose to engage in.

I stay in touch with people that I can't see face-to-face because they live across the ocean, or across the country. We share pictures and stories and reminisce and stay connected in a way that would not be possible if I had to phone or write them all individually. I am closer now to old friends and people that could have been friends when we went to school together but we were caught up in our own other social circles.

I have met physically, and have plans to meet some of the people that I have met through social media. My life is richer because of it.

I would agree with tacit that the FB "Discussion" concept would not work as well as the dedicated forums here, but perhaps a simple Page that could be found when searching for Mac Help on Facebook could end up leading people here.

> "perhaps a simple Page that could be found when searching for Mac Help on Facebook could end up leading people here"[i][/i]

That sounds like a good idea, even if it never goes any further.

A page on FB that leads folks here might be a good idea, though I reckon a lot of folks won't use it if it requires a totally different login. I don't know if there's UBB functionality to log in via Facebook Connect, or if it'd be something that would be desirable if there is--that's something I'd like input from the moderators on.

I do think that within the next few years, standalone forums will be essentially dead. I'd like to explore some options to keep that from happening to us!

RE standalone forums will be essentially dead

They'll only be dead if their participants are or they no longer care to participate.
In either case ...

The latest punditry I am seeing on the future of the internet is already predicting the end of the Facebook era.

In the word of Montgomery Burns: Excellent.

And what, pray tell, do assembled punditry say will replace it?

Coffee klatches would be a capital idea!

I see the same pattern happening to standalone forums that happened to pre-Internet bulletin board systems: the population of users is aging, the influx of new members is slowing, and the overall traffic is spiraling the drain. I think both will happen--new people will no longer participate and the existing people will die or move on.

Sites like Myspace and Facebook are lousy from a forum perspective. There's very little that can really replace a forum like this; compared to this kind of software, the user interface is lousy, the forums aren't searchable, Facebook groups aren't indexed by Google, and keeping topics in separate categories is difficult or impossible. So for a forum like FTM, what we have is head and shoulders above what Facebook can offer.

On the other hand, for a lot of people, especially people relatively new to the Internet, Facebook might as well *be* the Internet. Folks like it because in just one place they have all their friends and all the topics they're interested in, plus games and apps and most of the rest of what they do online. It makes coming to a standalone Web site forum seem positively archaic.

So here's the million-dollar question: What would it look like to combine the size and socially connected accessibility of Facebook with the user interface, searchability, and indexability of forum software like this? I suspect there's a lot of money for whoever answers that question.

Some of the ideas I have in the back of my mind include:

- The ability to log in here with Facebook Connect, which would let Facebook users use FTM without creating a whole separate login.
- A Facebook page that redirects to FTM.
- A standalone app that allows users to use, post, and search FTM from their desktop without firing up a Web browser.
- Some kind of app or plugin for Facebook (I don't know anything about Facebook app development) that gives Facebook a group system that doesn't suck, and/or makes FTM available to users from within Facebook. I don't know if that's possible or not; I've never investigated FB's programming API.
- A whole new platform that does for forums what Facebook does for social networking. I'm not sure of a forum-specific platform would be a good idea or not. At the very least, it would be massive amounts of work for something that might fizzle. (Ning.com tried doing a social networking platform to compete with Facebook. It failed spectacularly.)

Great post!

Thanks for your insights and thoughts.

I was thinking of your first two choices. even driving a little traffic here would be a good thing, no?

Considering user sloth as a new "given," I think "The ability to log in here with Facebook Connect, which would let Facebook users use FTM without creating a whole separate login." stands head and shoulders above any of your other ideas.

" A Facebook page that redirects to FTM." is a good alternative, but a distant second.

I typed "Mac help forum" into Google and FTM got no mention. So, that might be a start: get a better presence on the search engines?

I tried a few search terms, and "macintosh forum(s)" shows FTM not too far from the top of the page, but other search terms yield no hits.

Curious, no?

tacit... Can you make any guesses?

Edit: The link is to FTM's home page, so is it fair to say that some language change on that page may be helpful?

Edit 2: "Macintosh help forum(s)" does not hit FTM.

I's definitely true that some fine-tuning of the site's front page might help Google visibility. I plan to start doing that as soon as I get a chance--might have to wait 'til next week.

According to the UBB.threads programmer on the UBB support forum, there is no plugin or module to allow login with Facebook Connect in version 7, or planned for version 7. They are working on this for UBB.threads version 8, which is not yet released. When it is released, it will not be a free upgrade; I don't know yet how much money it will cost to move FTM from version 7 to version 8, or when version 8 will be available. If they stick with past pricing plans, it'll likely be a couple hundred dollars to upgrade.

Making a Facebook page that redirects here likely won't do nearly as much for traffic as integrating FTM with Facebook Connect, but the advantage it has is that it's free and can be done right now. However, any FTM page on Facebook probably won't succeed unless someone is willing to work on it regularly, both promoting it and adding new content to it (perhaps a Mac tech question of the week? Something like that?). At the moment, I don't have the time to commit to doing a Facebook page that way.

Other random ideas off the top of my head:

- Creating special forums that piggyback off of other popular, high-visibility trends. A Word of Warcraft on the Mac forum, perhaps? Or a forum that hilights outstanding programs on the Mac OS App store?

- More aggressive promoting--not only in Google, but also on other forums (forum signatures are a good way to do this), in blogs, and so on. I plan to put more visible links to FTM from my other Web sites, by way of one example.

Thanks for you insights and ideas; not that it'll be worth much, but I'll give it some thought.

Off the top of my head, though, it looks like the best way for FTM to achieve immediate, high visibility is to somehow take a piggyback ride on the back Russian organized crime.

In the special forums area, FTM's "Freeware" thread would appear to be a great candidate for a standalone forum; the posts would need more depth than they usually have now...perhaps to be defined by some sort of minimal "content-template."

Jeez, more than a few posts here resemble the carping that must have gone on about the coming of the Iron Horse.

Like it or not, social media is the current face of communication. Obviously there are growing pains and unfortunately most of it is being programmed by PC-types (Facebook is far from intuitive), but it remains the place where most people get their information. Plenty of people, companies, etc., misuse it, but whereas advertising and marketing are a one-way broadcasting of something, social media is two-way and is what "communicating" is really all about. Stick to the "old ways" if you must, but like the club room at the Harvard Club, I'd bet the accumulating dust is really becoming annoying.

A Facebook page seems redundant to this forum; maybe you could use Twitter to broadcast your presence to a wider community and to solicit others' opinions and suggestions about how to proceed.

Ah yes, back to back-biting.

As for Facebook and its congeners (the latter term a less tainted version of 'ilk') ...

If the term communication is to have any meaningful content, then by and large it can't be used to define or delineate the inherent fatuity and superciliousness of most Facebook postings (from all I can gather).

However, as Marshall MacLuhan pointed up: The medium is the message.

And if "friending" is any indication of a social network, then I'm happy — nay, ecstatic — to be a troglodyte and recluse.

Not to put too fine a point on it: Social networking is a load of crap which is only social and a network by the most trivial of definitions, primarily used by those who have no real (as opposed to virtual) friends and more and more by those who would do evil — even if a certain subset of interactors use it as legitimate communication.

And now back to regular Sunday programming ....

Caveat: I don't use any of the social media and I don't tweet. Therefore I accede to the opinions of those with experience although, from what I've read, it seems to me that we do want to get connected to the crowd who live on Facebook or other social media.

I wonder if there's a bit of blue-sky work yet to be done before we connect to one of these sites. What are the questions we should ask and answer to get an idea of what we want to be, or should be?

I think we've already asked and answered the question about connecting. The interface needs to be simple without using a separate login…which is in line with the Mac philosophy of ease of use.

However, what do we need to be once a person gets here? It seems there's a big move to equipment like iPads (Hal's iPad thread got nearly 30,000 views) but, on our site "iPad" is one of five items in one forum. Do we need to have specific forums for iPads and iPhones?

What about the operating systems? We are Mac-computer-centric but maybe we need to have a place where people easily find or search advice about iOS.

I did a bit of looking around and found some iPad sites but they lack something that is a huge advantage on our site. I didn't see the same quality of advice. We have folks who can actually help people through problems rather than some of the guesswork I saw elsewhere.

I don't think we're far from being part of the "all the topics they're interested in" for Facebook users – particularly when our indexing, searchability, categorizing et cetera is combined with the expertise available in our membership. We just want to make sure that when folks visit the first time, their experience tells them this is a place to return to.

ryck

I dunno. Neither am I a Facebook user but, when that medium plays a central role in turfing an Egyptian dictator, I have to think something "social" happened and it wasn't too "trivial".

ryck

Two of the preceding posts illustrate the range of thought on this topic. I quote a salient statement from each of them below, followed by a comment of mine:

If this is true (and I believe it's arguably the case), then we'd best be looking how to utilize the new media.


This opinion is fine by me, but not very helpful against the backdrop of the preceding quote and its implications, as it would seem to prefer throwing out the (FTMF) baby with the (despised media) bath water.

While these two points of view seem mutually exclusive, I don't believe it is necessary to choose one over the other at this time. After all, we're still dealing with an 'and-and' option (this forum with 'hooks' in other sites) instead of an 'or-or' one, although that may eventually change. But regardless of what FTM's future format(s) will be, assuming there will be an FTM (let's say 5-10 years from now), I don't think it's smart to exclude anything off the bat.

My guess is that stand alone computer troubleshooting forums do have a future. Computer problems often create a lot anxiety in the user, take a lot of time to fix, and require a good deal of special expertise. I don't think that they will fit easily into multi purpose forums -- and certainly not "personal communication/revelation" forums such as Facebook.

I have an account on Facebook. FineTunedMac is already there in a very minor way. I typed its name into the search box (at the top of all Facebook pages) and I got two links:

http://finetunedmac.com/

http://www.finetunedmac.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=11004

If one types "Mac Help" into that search box one gets lots of Mac entries -- Mac stores, people offering Mac help, etc. Sometimes there's not just Mac information in Facebook but links out of Facebook to Mac web pages.

In addition to opening an account for FTM on Facebook or advertising there or both, I'd somehow try to see to it that Google and Yahoo, etc. turn up FTM more than they do. I do not know how to do this. I hope that it is somehow doable.

Does anybody, such as Macworld, do an evaluation of Mac Help forums. FTM would then get mentioned and ought to rank high.

I wonder whether it would help FTM to advertise itself as having a specialty (in addition to its being a "general all things Mac" help body) -- say a specialty such as helping Windows switchers. There seems to me to be a growing body of switchers nowadays.

Social media is much more than just Facebook, and even so, Facebook is more than some inane fool posting every thought that comes into his head. Any number of start-ups, small businesses, and nonprofits have been able to make themselves known and get word of their product/service/mission out to the community. This kind of thing used to take lots of money. Now it doesn't.

> My guess is that stand alone computer troubleshooting forums do have a future. Computer problems often create a lot anxiety in the user, take a lot of time to fix, and require a good deal of special expertise.

I've had the same thought, but with no Facebook experience I wasn't certain that it was accurate to say that the expertise available at FTM is not available there.

I wonder if it's maybe time for some sort of "umbrella" organization...a single website to which users in need of help could go and, with a single login, gain access to anywhere from a few to many of the "free-standing" Mac support forums?

True, the scheme would leave each individual forum to sink or swim based on its shortcomings or merits, but that's what competition is all about.

And if it forces some forums to cut their scope and concentrate on the areas at which they are best (or even go out of business), it will, in the end, be in the best interests of those looking for help.

So far as I can tell, Facebook offers no significant expertise on techie computer, smart phone, tablet, etc. problems. Sure there is a little help for Apple newbies. And some links exist there for help beyond Facebook. But Apple troubleshooting matters are a very minor part of Facebook.

As for an umbrella website to help Apple users get help, with a single registration, by accessing any of the various single purpose Apple help sites, it's a nice idea but it requires cooperation from all the Apple websites --doesn't it? And the cost has to be shared, doesn't it? I'm not sure that the cooperation or the willingness to share costs will be there. And I'm not sure that FTM would do that well in that environment. How does FTM stand out? In numbers, no. In talent maybe -- but who knows that? In special treatment of users. Maybe. But who knows that? In special attention to a certain class of users. What class? FTM is a general all purpose help site. It has not gone to any specialization.

I think that FTM has to do a better job by itself of gaining users. And to me that means getting itself mentioned more often (and favourably) on Google and Yahoo and getting itself on some of the social media sites. And it has to explain why it is a good choice compared to its competitors. And that is not an easy task. Word of mouth works, but now there are not enough mouths at FTM to do that work.

Ships can be righted, but it's usually not that clear at the outset how to do it.

> As for an umbrella website [...], it's a nice idea but it requires cooperation from all the Apple websites --doesn't it? And the cost has to be shared, doesn't it? I'm not sure that the cooperation or the willingness to share costs will be there.

I didn't say I thought it would be easy, although I don't think it would be a terribly expensive proposition, and if, as tacit says, all the stand-alones are experiencing the same downturn FTM has seen, the impetus may be there.

> And I'm not sure that FTM would do that well in that environment. How does FTM stand out? In numbers, no. In talent maybe -- but who knows that? In special treatment of users. Maybe. But who knows that? In special attention to a certain class of users. What class? FTM is a general all purpose help site. It has not gone to any specialization.

FTM stands out from the crowd as the successor to MFIF... "FTM is the home-in-exile of the responders you knew, respected, and have missed since the demise of MFIF." That, I think, is FTM's major selling point, because it imparts instant credibility!

"FTM stands out from the crowd as the successor to MFIF... "FTM is the home-in-exile of the posters you knew, respected, and have missed since the demise of MFIF." That, I think, is FTM's major selling point, because it imparts instant credibility!"

But in your proposed umbrella website, most of the readers won't know about the old MacFixIt. And most of those who do haven't returned to it -- hence the current problem for FTM. I think that helpers at the old MacFixIt and the current FTM are great -- but since most of the users of the old MaxFixIt have not returned to FTM, you have to suppose that they were not that impressed -- or just don't know that FTM is the old MacFixIt. In the latter case, better advertising will help.

I'm inclined to believe that there are still many, many people who remember MFIF fondly...that the dearth of posters at FTM results not from lack of interest or from its failure to have made an impression, but from people's, including most former MFIF posters, not knowing it exists.

True, there was a "get out the word" campaign (mostly in the form of sigs, though, which probably escaped the notice of many) during MFIF's twilight days, but that only reached a small percentage of posters, and the early Google hits that mentioned FTM and MFIF in the same sentence have long since sunk to the bottom of the page.

Also true that there was some early "unrest" at FTM that probably alienated some people, but that's ancient history, and I have to think that FTM's still being around after two years will prompt those people to give it another shot and discover that it's survived its birth/growing pains...that it's a much friendlier, happier place than it was waaay back then.

That said, what better, and less expensive, way can you propose to get necessary exposure than to be affiliated with a website whose entire audience is FTM's target audience?

Advertising is expensive, and an umbrella website seems to me to be the cheapest access route to the largest target audience, particularly in view of tacit's assertion that all the free-standing forums are losing business (and [extrapolating here], therefore, could, presumably, use and would, presumably, benefit from the exposure).

RE Facebook is more than some inane fool posting every thought that comes into his head.

No argument except to say that there are legions of the effete who do.

RE Any number of start-ups, small businesses, and nonprofits have been able to make themselves known and get word of their product/service/mission out to the community. This kind of thing used to take lots of money. Now it doesn't.

I cannot conceive of ever using such a site to acquire business or product information; it'd be like responding to the Nigerian scam. {shudder}

> RE Facebook is more than some inane fool posting every thought that comes into his head.

I wonder if that's maybe a reference to Twitter, which, although it apparently does have some limited usefulness, basically meets the criterion (as well as makes me shudder at the thought of it).

And, from my limited experience, my impression is that Facebook is a faaar better site/experience than Twitter...simply put, much better content.

No, it's not a reference to Twitter.

Again, I don't think Facebook is the answer. You're looking to "advertise" your presence. Short of paying for advertising, Facebook can't really offer you much in the way of that.

Something like Twitter, where you can find an already established, like-minded audience, would be more effective. Also, working on search engine optimization to get more notice on Google would also seem more effective. I'm not familiar with the particulars, but if you're seriously interested, I can point you to a couple sites that specialize in this and seem more reputable than others.

Seriously, Nigerian scam? I've got a sister-in-law -- who doubled her business by inviting her friends (and their friends) to visit her booth at a holiday gift show which benefited her local historical association -- who would seriously disagree (if not be offended) by that remark.

> No, it's not a reference to Twitter.

Kinda sounded like one, though.

I've already given this matter what I think is likely my best shot, and I'm totally out of my league when it comes to dealing with your ideas/suggestions, but thanks for your thoughts. I'm sure tacit will see them and take them under advisement.

RE I've got a sister-in-law -- who doubled her business by inviting her friends (and their friends) to visit her booth at a holiday gift show which benefited her local historical association ...

Again, I have no argument with like-minded people interacting in this fashion; it's not the same as strangers doing so.
My point is that I would never respond to such an offer unless it was a personalized (and I mean really personal) contact from a trusted source.

And I will forever remain leery about the seamy qua destructive side of "social media". Caveat emptor. Caveat lector. Caveat utor.

There may be many, many people who remember MFIF fondly, but I think the lion's share of them remember a much earlier version, and were already long gone by the time MFIF was shut down, driven away by a combination of factors which arose more or less contemporaneously with Ted's sale of MFI to TechTracker:

• the spread of acrimony, notably in the Mac OS X Talk forum, and in the Lounge's political threads in the aftermath of 9/11;
• a severe, more or less ongoing set of technical problems (hardware server troubles, database troubles, ad server troubles, and the constant reduction of engineering cycles to deal with any of the above), whose end result was a chronic interminable wait for pages to load;
• the (two week?) emergency shutdown in the spring of 2008 to update the forums to new software, which was likely the final straw for many who'd managed to weather the day-by-day access issues of yore; and ultimately,
• a dramatic diminution in the quality of help offered, due in large part, no doubt, to the tangible reduction in both depth and breadth of knowledge represented by the diminishing population of regulars.

This steady erosion of traffic may not have been that noticeable to some of those regulars who remained throughout, since even toward the end, there was enough traffic to provide new interest on a more or less daily basis; but to those of us tasked with managing the content side of the site, the dropoff in business over the years was staggering.

When I became a moderator in 2003, a typical day saw around 300 new posts, and that itself was down significantly from the first couple years of the millennium. By the end, we were down below 100 posts a day.

A perusal of the Internet Archive reveals this falloff in activity at MFIF:

Maybe, as the Mac OS improved, people had fewer problems.

RE ... I think the lion's share of them remember a much earlier version, and were already long gone by the time MFIF was shut down, driven away by a combination of factors which arose more or less contemporaneously with Ted's sale of MFI to TechTracker ....

Yes indeed. And as much as the participants (especially in the Lounge) then formed a motley and friendly crowd, eager to share, the bonhommie broke down and the family broke up, with the ship-jumpers finding a new island of solace. As much as I liked helping out the cat-wranglers who left, I chose to remain behind. Loyalty rarely makes me uncomfortable.

I do a limited amount of Facebook and I find it a convenient means of keeping up with distant friends, the current news about our local minor league baseball team, specials at local establishments, meeting notices for organizations I am a member of. Only occassionally will I pick up recommendations from my "friends". Note that these are almost all people or organizations I already knew about. As far as I know, the few new "likes"/"friends"/"pages" I was not prevously aware of came from existing "friends" and those new likes"/"friends"/"pages" are very few and far between.

My wife, on the other hand, often posts a request for recommendations to her many Facebook friends and often gets some very good feedback on different stores/products/etc.

I have talked to some local merchants about their Facebook pages and they all agree it is a great way to keep in touch with their existing customers and they do pull in some new customers from existing customer's "Likes".

Personally I cannot envision an FTM troubleshooting Facebook page. What I can envision is a page that would be a portal to the FTM site and an option on FTM to "Like" the FTM Facebook page. If all of the FTM users "like" the Facebook page, that would show up in their Facebook profiles and might entice other Mac users to find and join FTM.

I don't Twitter but it occurs that might be used in the same way. (Can you imagine describing a problem on the Mac in less than 140 characters? I can't.)

exactly.

Ha! This is what I was thinking.

I can only speculate from personal experience, but to address some of the previously mentioned issues:

I came to MacFixIt years ago from a magazine referral. It was listed as one of the best sites for Mac help.

After I found out how to solve the basic and frequent Mac problems (OS 8.5), I gravitated to the Lounge – from curiosity and habit. When the Lounge became uncomfortable, I found other ways to spend my time.

I came to MacFixIt from magazine referrals. Does anyone read a magazine for Mac help anymore? I find the easiest way to solve a Mac problem these days is to search Google. Instant links to discussions of similar problems pop up, as opposed to waiting for someone reply to a post on a tech forum.

The other site I frequent is MacOSXHints. They have more traffic than this site, but it can be real slow, too. They don't seem to have as much (if any) bickering among the regulars. (This is an observation, not a criticism.)

I don't think Twitter/Facebook is the solution, unless the prime movers here are committed Twits/Facebookers. It doesn't seem to me to be a place where I'd go to get my computer fixed.

The main computer magazines have an online presence. Maybe a PR campaign – personal letters to the editors from tacit would help increase the profile here?

To my mind, tacit is famous, an icon. And reliable. And he never got involved in the political aggro, as near as I can recall. He just knows how to fix your computer.

This is this site's USP. Market it (with tacit approval).

And apologies to all the other mainstays of this site. I know that there is plenty of expertise here, but when you read one of tacit's posts, there is a certain clarity and authority that certainly makes an impression.

You need more visibility on the search engines, I my opinion. One-on-one TwitFace referrals are not the solution, I fear. And I have used Facebook (until I got burned). The movie, Social Network, was excellent.

It took a long time to build up that MacFixIt brand. A google search takes you to cnet.

Thanks for that; much of it is beyond the scope of my experience.

Oh, well... It was a thought; I still believe it may have some merit, though.

It does appear to be the most viable immediate option.

That's been my impression, beginning with Leopard, but I can't separate the possibility from the realities posted by dk.

That's not how you'd use Twitter. It would be more to announce your presence or to say "I can help!" when someone Tweets that they wish they could figure out what's wrong their (whatever).

Toss in some keywords at twitter.search.com and see if there are any groups that you think FTM could attract.

I thought about that, and I think it's true to a certain extent, but in that case, the 76,401 discussions in the Mac OS X v10.6 Snow Leopard community on Apple's support site suggest that there's little correlation between OS maturity and folks' need/desire to discuss it.

(After all, the flawless performance of OS X on your Macs hasn't kept you from participating in a thread or two here and there. )


Of course, if everyone googled for instant links and no one posted, there'd ultimately be no discussions of similar or indeed any problems at all. (Obviously there are other potential sources of search results, like online articles and blog posts, but neither of those is crowd-sourced and thus offer comparative experiences which are much more limited in scope.)

I use Facebook mostly to keep in touch with friends I don't get a chance to see as often as I'd like, but I honestly can't think of a single instance in which Facebook has figured in the process by which I've arrived at a solution to a problem.

As for Twitter, I think that's a bit like texting, in that you either do it or you don't. I don't, and I don't know too many folks who do, and that's a commentary on my position in the demographic firmament, but it leads to this point, which I haven't seen raised: historically, members of this (MFIF/FTM) community have been older, on average, than those of most other Mac sites I've visited.

I agree with Jerry when he says, "I don't think Twitter/Facebook is the solution, unless the prime movers here are committed Twits/Facebookers." And I don't think they are.

Now, mind you, I'm not much of a Facebook user, and I'm not especially fond of Facebook or its ilk, but...

I don't think that's really a fair statement.

Now, throughout history, whenever you give people the chance to say whatever they like, you find that most folks don't really have anything interesting to say. That's not a problem with social networks; that's a problem with people. Facebook has 500,000,000 active users. Given that many people can't find anything more interesting to talk about than what they had for dinner last night, that means a lot of Facebook posts are about what they had for dinner last night. And given that most people are shallow and superficial and form shallow, superficial social connections, that means many folks on Facebook are shallow and superficial and form shallow, superficial social connections. None of that is a problem with social networks so much as a problem with human nature.

But if you get 500,000,000 people in the same place, you discover that a lot of those folks DO have interesting things to say.



Both of those sound like good ideas to me.

The iPad is a red-hot, game changing gadget. I think having an iPad forum is probably an excellent idea. I don't know that I'd be able to contribute to it, as I don't have an iPad (unless one of you wants to buy me one... ) but I think it'd be a great thing to put here.

Similarly, an iOS forum would probably be an excellent idea too.



What I see happening is that, particularly for younger users, Facebook is the gateway to the Internet. If folks in the Facebook set have computer problems, they turn to friends for help. If that doesn't work, they don't seem to Google for solutions--they take it in to the Apple Genius bar or something like that. While I would like to think that standalone forums sill have a place, and I definitely agree that they are more appropriate for troubleshooting than Facebook is, the numbers show that standalone forums are dying.



That's an excellent idea, and something I plan to work on when I have time.



Sure. And like I said, most folks don't really have a whole lot that's interesting going on in there. That's neither here nor there, of course. In any group of half a billion people (and by the way, Facebook's userbase is one-fourteenth of the total human population...how's that for reach?), a lot of folks won't be interesting and some folks will. If we are to survive, we need to go to where the half a billion people are, not wait for them to come to us.



I used to think that way, before I started using Twitter.

As it turns out, Twitter is brilliant. Its simplicity and immediacy fills a nice gap between real-time communication and forums like this; it's more immediate than forums, but less immediate than a phone call. That actually works out really well. I've "met" a number of folks who've become close real-world friends on Twitter.

Yep, there is a lot of rubbish. Same rule as Facebook; get tens of millions of people together and most of 'em won't be interesting. The problem isn't with Twitter, though. Find the ones who ARE interesting, and Twitter becomes extraordinarily useful.



Yep, that's about how I see it too. To me, an important part of that is the ability not just to redirect Facebook users here, but to let them log in here with their Facebook ID, so they do not have to register again. Sadly, that will have to wait for the next release of UBB.threads.

I also think that in order to be successful, that FB page will have to be updated frequently, perhaps with particularly good troubleshooting threads from here. You know, give folks a taste of the quality of the troubleshooting advice they can find here.



I see more search engine visibility as a stopgap solution; something that's definitely beneficial, but ultimately I do see a shift away from standalone forums that I think is only going to continue. I'm not quite sure where Facebook fits in that equation--it's the 900-pound gorilla right now, but its forum system is so awful that it can't totally squeeze standalone forums out just yet. However, whatever the next step *after* Facebook is, very well might.

'm looking not just a year down the road (I definitely think we can survive that long), but five years down the road. I see an Internet that will become increasingly aggregated in large sites of some sort, whether they be like Facebook or something else, and increasingly hostile to small, standalone forums.

However, just seeing the shape of the problem doesn't really suggest a solution.

RE I don't think that's really a fair statement. and
But if you get 500,000,000 people in the same place, you discover that a lot of those folks DO have interesting things to say.

It wasn't meant to be fair; it was a personal assessment.
Somehow, scanning through the musings of 500M individuals to find the pearls of wisdom that might lurk there is a tad daunting and not how I'd like to spend even a millisecond of my time. (But that's just me.)
Quite frankly, I much rather watch, for example, the ants on my rose bushes tend their herd of aphids. (But that's just me.)

Ah yes, Facebook ... flawless friend to the feckless and fatuous ...

Sold Out by Your Favorite Facebook Apps?

Facebook may have leaked your personal information

Yeah, I'll be sure to sign up real soon.

"What I see happening is that, particularly for younger users, Facebook is the gateway to the Internet. If folks in the Facebook set have computer problems, they turn to friends for help. If that doesn't work, they don't seem to Google for solutions--they take it in to the Apple Genius bar or something like that. While I would like to think that standalone forums sill have a place, and I definitely agree that they are more appropriate for troubleshooting than Facebook is, the numbers show that standalone forums are dying."


So suppose that stand alone forums in general are dying. Is that irrelevant to stand alone techie or Apple oriented forums? What's the evidence that it is relevant?

What we at FTM ought to be interested in is whether Apple oriented stand alone forums are dying or in bad health. And, of course, some will be for particular reasons. And some have died in the past. And FTM is, though not dying, now in bad health in one respect -- in lacking users.

But one must not generalize from stand alone forums in general to computer/techie, or more particularly, Apple oriented forums. Different stand alone forums deal with different subject matters and have users of different degrees of interest/commitment. Generalization across such differences is dubious generalization.

Key Issue: What are the stats at Apple's own forums -- where most Apple users go for help? Do we know that usage is recently down there?

And it has to be WAY down to reasonably suggest dying or even fragile health.

I would say that if I were told that the usage there was 1/4 down, I would be willing to take the view that Apple single purpose forums show signs of bad health -- but not signs of dying. (Claiming dying with 1/4 down would be gross exaggeration.)

I await stats from Tacit re: the Apple forums and the matter of possible recent decreased usage there.

And if we don't possess that data for the Apple forums, we are, of course, using crystal balls when we claim death or ill health for Apple oriented forums. But then others can use their crystal balls as well -- and theirs will point, no doubt, to a different future. We need some quantitative data -- not conjecture or single person impressions.

I am puzzled by Tacit's remark that: What I see happening is that, particularly for younger users, Facebook is the gateway to the Internet. If folks in the Facebook set have computer problems, they turn to friends for help. If that doesn't work, they don't seem to Google for solutions--they take it in to the Apple Genius bar or something like that.

I grant that Facebook is immense for young people. But turning to friends or Apple stores/including in many towns and cities to Apple accredited service stores is what most Apple users, no matter what their age, have done ever since Apple came into existence. It is NOT a new trend!! One needs to feel competent or have time to spare to use Google or any Apple help forums. Many do not feel competent enough or have time enough to spare. So they turn to friends or stores. Is this trend to friends or stores increasing now as a proportion of Apple users? What's the data for that?

The need for Apple help ought to be increasing now based on the fact that many are now switching from Microsoft or buying Apple as their first techie product because of all the favourable Apple/Steve Jobs hype and the Consumer Reports high praise (at last!) for Apple products. (This is speculation by me. But if Tacit can speculate -- and that is what he is doing -- so can I.)

My view is that Tacit has taken a wrong path -- in one respect only. There is no reason, pending quantitative data to the contrary, to think that techie or Apple stand alone forums in general are dying or are now in poor health -- or will be in the short term.

But there is reason to think that FTM is in bad health. But that is not a generic problem. It is a particular problem. And other small Apple oriented forums may share the same problem. For I'll guess that most of the Apple newbies (and there are lots of them now) are going to the Apple forums.

FTM's problem requires a particular/local solution. I hope it can be found. And advertising of some kind has to be part of that solution

The evidence I have is anecdotal. I belong to several Mac-related tech forums, and I've seen the traffic slumping on all of them lately. I haven't done any sort of statistically significant controlled sampling of tech forums in general, but I'd be very surprised to learn that this is not affecting all of us.



Indeed. And it's users who make any forum; we can't long survive if the downward trend continues.



That's true. But technological changes do tend to affect everyone; it happened with the old dial-up BBS systems and again with USENET, regardless of the nature of the specific BBSes or newsgroups involved.

Like I said, anecdotally, tech forums are experiencing the same decrease in usage that other forums are.



For these purposes, I don't really know that I'd consider Apple's own forum a 'standalone forum,' as it has a significant patron willing to spend a great deal of time and energy on it that is also in a position to promote it as a resource (namely, Apple itself). I would not expect that Apple's Web site usage trends would necessarily reflect those of Apple-themed sites not affiliated with Apple itself...

I have an 89 year old mother-in-law who is in love with her iPad. While hardly a power user, she is connected to the world.

But when she has iPad questions, she only calls moi, and unfortunately, my help is limited as I do not have an iPad.

What this is getting to, is that I see a growing need for a forum geared to seniors.

Your thoughts...

In post #15511 in this very thread, dkmarsh said

You're right with your observation about the 'older' demographic, but perhaps not specific enough, as this group (arbitrarily set here at > 60 years of age) may encompass a third or more of the entire population. Pendragon's mother-in-law belongs to an age group a generation beyond the group DK is referring to (let's equally arbitrarily say 55-70 years old).

For various reasons, this oldest group is not exactly known for embracing the digital age, and therein lies the rub with Pendragon's suggestion for a group geared to seniors: you'll have to be somewhat familiar with the internet and forums to go look for specific forums like the ones suggested. This doesn't disqualify the suggestion, but points at specific issues associated with the target group.

Thanks for the clarification.

I didn't really think dk was referring to people as old as Harv's mother-in-law, but his observation was on target, if not on the mark, as respects the comment.

Maybe we can link with AARP?

Don't be swayed by age group. It's about the individual. A friend's mother blogged practically up until she died at age 92. I occasionally helped her out with her Mac, and she was always interested in understanding how I was doing what I was doing.

Swayed? Huh?

There are exceptions to all rules, and your friend's mother sounds very much like one of them.

I mentioned AARP because I believe its magazine has got the largest circulation of any publication in America; if FTM could finagle even a mention, the exposure would be enormous.

The solution is obvious. buy an ipad.

You're not understanding how it works (at all). What appears in one's "news feed" is limited to only those people (or entities) which one has "friended" (or "Liked"). There actually is no way to go wading through a generic feed coming from every existing user simultaneously (AFAIK). One could click through on people's names and go off inspecting the walls (and/or info pages) of "friends of friends" ad nauseam... or run randon searches, i suppose -- but most savvy users have their privacy settings adjusted so that strangers only see what they're allowed to see.

Sometimes (given your attitude), i'm surprised you're even online at all.




And that's mostly FUD. The only 'real' info one need supply is an email address. (most folks provide their actual names, but you can create an account with a totally fake name).

True, facebook's default privacy settings stink. So change them (to 'Only Friends' or 'Only Me'). True, the apps that people get engrossed with are both silly and sneaky. So block them.

http://sophos.com/security/best-practice/facebook/