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Posted By: macnerd10 Idea for login page - 08/15/09 06:20 AM
OFF: Tacit, how about saying on the login page with a shot Mac that this forum is organized and continued by people from the MFIF community?
Posted By: cyn Re: Idea for login page - 08/15/09 11:46 AM
Alex, I've detached your reply from tacit's Performance problems and intermittent connection topic so your post is now a separate thread with its own subject.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/15/09 12:11 PM
I had an inspiration last night and managed to work FineTunedMac.com and its crew into a VersionTracker review of Pacifist (No less!).

We don't need to get the word out to people who've already found us, rather to those who don't know we're here.

We need to be creative!
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/16/09 07:14 AM
Exactly my point. We need to tell new people that this is the new MFIF. Some regulars might not know either where the new forum is. If only there was a way to link MFIF and FTM in Google searches...
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/16/09 07:15 AM
Thanks, Cyn!
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/16/09 08:11 AM
I tried to leave a few signposts before MFIF locked us out and ran into trouble trying to guess what particular search term people would throw at Google; I just did my best (with excellent results when I ask my own questions and not-so-great results the rest of the time. grin ).
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/16/09 08:54 AM
OK, Alex; I took up the gauntlet.

The third link down the results page of a Google search for "MacFixIt Forums" led me to this MacFixIt page on which the last post now reads:

"FineTunedMac is MFIF offspring!
Authored by: artie505 on Sunday, August 16 2009 @ 01:46 AM PDT

FineTunedMac finetunedmac.com has risen from the ashes of the old MFIF.

Its founders include *all* of the old MFIF Administrator, Moderator, and regular responder crew, all of whom have dedicated themselves to providing the Mac community with on-going *quality* support at the same level that used to be found at MFIF, and in the same, familiar UBB.Thread format.

Please join us at our new home and tease us with your Mac's problems, relax in our lounge, or maybe even help us with our 'growing pains.'"


Edit: So call me bad!

I just posted in CNET's Lounge.

It'll likely get yanked frown , but maybe it'll do a bit of good while it's up. grin
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Idea for login page - 08/16/09 12:07 PM

Okay, but why not put this diabolical energy into building this site from within?

The day that Small Dog linked to us in their TechTails newsletter, our membership doubled. Let's give them some content worth perusing. As of now, slightly more than half of the posts at FTM have been made in the Lounge and FineTunedMac Feedback.

There's got to be a more constructive way of drawing folks with Mac-related issues here than by the cyber equivalent of tagging the old TechTracker sites with graffiti. Among other things, that will be counterproductive to the extent that folks reading those sites regard such links as spam.
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/16/09 07:58 PM
Artie, you did great! But DK is also right - we need a more flashy and informative login page. An average Joe would just skip it because it is kind of cryptic.
Posted By: Gregg Re: Idea for login page - 08/16/09 08:34 PM
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

As of now, slightly more than half of the posts at FTM have been made in the Lounge and FineTunedMac Feedback.


That's not surprising. Many of the veterans were excited to see this site up and running. Those are usually the people helping others out much more often than they are posting a question. Similarly, it's no surprise that the New Users Forum has very few threads.

I posted a legitimate curiosity in the OSX Forum, but I haven't had any troubleshooting issues to post since the migration. Those will come, in time.
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Idea for login page - 08/16/09 09:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Gregg
Those will come, in time.

I am expecting a whole flood of posts sometime in September or perhaps early October depending on the exact date Snow Leopard ships.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/17/09 07:15 AM
> Okay, but why not put this diabolical energy into building this site from within?

The day that Small Dog linked to us in their TechTails newsletter, our membership doubled. Let's give them some content worth perusing. As of now, slightly more than half of the posts at FTM have been made in the Lounge and FineTunedMac Feedback.


1. I have already devoted a *considerable* amount of my "diabolical energy" to writing a proposed MacFAQ, which, I think, *is* "content worth perusing," and Jon, Harv, and ganbustein have also made worthwhile contributions, but I have yet to see so much as an acknowledgement of our submissions let alone a MacFAQ Forum featuring even one of them.

2. My suggested "poster's template" also appears to be languishing.

3. And many of the posts you seem to disdain that have been made to the FTM Feedback Forum, some of them my own, have been directed at "building this site from within" in one way or another.

> There's got to be a more constructive way of drawing folks with Mac-related issues here than by the cyber equivalent of tagging the old TechTracker sites with graffiti. Among other things, that will be counterproductive to the extent that folks reading those sites regard such links as spam.

I have posted three discreet links and five *creative*, non-link, Google-search-oriented post titles at MFIF, one in-context mention of FTM in my VT Pacifist review, and, in response to Alex's "If only there was a way to link MFIF and FTM in Google searches...," one FTM mention in the CNET Lounge (responsive to a comment in a post by Ikrupp), and one pretty much invited mention at MacFixIt (accessible from the *fourth* link from the top of a Google "MacFixIt Forums" search-results page).

On my spam/graffiti scale that pales in comparison to the *many* repetitive links to your blog left behind by you Mods in the waning days of MFIF.

Building FTM from within is, indeed, desirable, but it will be useless without increasing membership, and I have directed my understanding of the advertising "Holy Grail" ("Target your market!") to the best effect I can think of. (I've also gotten the FTM message out to the *entire* staff of Tekserve, the wonderful, largest, independent Mac sales and service store in NYC.)
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/17/09 07:34 AM
> Artie, you did great! But DK is also right - we need a more flashy and informative login page. An average Joe would just skip it because it is kind of cryptic.

I'm a CPA by education and training, and a bartender by choice, but an ad-man only by avocation, Alex, and I've exhausted my capabilities as far as promoting FTM goes.

Surely we've got a couple of practicing ad-men and graphic designers among our membership who can team up and produce some "spec" stuff, and perhaps they, rather than I, ought to be taken to task for sitting on the sidelines while I've been doing to do my best.

I see a whole lot of "We needs" and all too few "Here you goes!"
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/17/09 08:40 AM
Artie, we should discuss some of your trademark cocktails in the Lounge! grin
I mean it.
Speaking about FTM, another site listed it as a Mac computer site:
http://www.roadsters.com/mac/
There are now some links of MFIF and FTM thanks to the last posts on MFIF (see Google for finetunedmac).
P.S. Looks like you are the champ now (108 posts)! Jon is a close second, I guess, with 100.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/17/09 08:58 AM
> There are now some links of MFIF and FTM thanks to the last posts on MFIF (see Google for finetunedmac).

But anybody who knows to Google FTM does not *need* to do so; we need to get the FTM message to those who are unaware of our existence.

Edit: The Roadsters link is great, and I expect there'll be more of same as our members spread the (so-to-speak) word-of-mouth.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Idea for login page - 08/17/09 11:14 AM

Quote:
P.S. Looks like you are the champ now (108 posts)! Jon is a close second, I guess, with 100.

FWIW, I've strongly urged that post counts be turned off altogether, since they don't provide any meaningful indication of the quality of advice offered by any particular poster.

I mean, do you really think that Kevin M. Dean and tacit are only the 19th and 20th most knowledgeable members here? Or MicroMat Tech3 the 23rd? Or ganbustein the 26th?
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/17/09 07:03 PM
Quote:
I mean, do you really think that Kevin M. Dean and tacit are only the 19th and 20th most knowledgeable members here? Or MicroMat Tech3 the 23rd? Or ganbustein the 26th?

Do you really think I am that dumb? confused
Just joking. The number of posts reflects activity. As we discussed before, in the old MFIF there was a pretty good correlation between the number of posts and "usefulness" of the poster. Here, the troubleshooting part is slowly developing, this is why some gurus have few posts yet. Most activity, quite understandably, was in the Lounge and feedback sections. However, it would be a big stretch saying that even now Jon and Artie are contributing something unimportant. If the forum movers and shakers decide on titles, posts from the Lounge should probably be excluded. Anyway, most forums rank their members by the number of posts for lack of better criteria.
Posted By: tacit Re: Idea for login page - 08/17/09 11:14 PM
Originally Posted By: macnerd10
OFF: Tacit, how about saying on the login page with a shot Mac that this forum is organized and continued by people from the MFIF community?


It's not a bad idea.

I don't know how much it will help, for reasons that have already been mentioned, but it certainly can't hurt. Might catch a few folks who Google for "MacFixIt" and related terms.

The site's home page is pretty stark right now; I'm definitely open to suggestions about what that page can be used for!
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Idea for login page - 08/17/09 11:15 PM

Quote:
Anyway, most forums rank their members by the number of posts for lack of better criteria.

Listing the number of posts only amounts to "ranking" the members if an explicit correlation is made between number of posts and value of poster. We certainly don't do that here, nor did we do so at MFIF.

What I'm concerned with is the implicit correlation expressed in your comment that "in the old MFIF there was a pretty good correlation between the number of posts and 'usefulness' of the poster." That's tantamount to devaluing the contributions of those who don't have the opportunity to read and reply to threads all day long.

I think replies should be judged on their merits, regardless of how many or few posts the one replying has amassed. Otherwise, new posters are entirely too likely to regard those with the most posts—who, statistically speaking, are the most likely to be replying to them—as the most knowledgeable members of the community.

And, as you've acknowledged, that would be a mistake.
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 12:13 AM
Quote:
That's tantamount to devaluing the contributions of those who don't have the opportunity to read and reply to threads all day long.

As you know, correlation is statistical and former titles prove me right. All the Mods had more than 1,000 posts and you, Joe, Cyn, Dianne, MacManiac, and Alternaut provided a lot of helpful solutions, hints and info. The same concerns Tacit, Hal, Jon, IraL, late Al Bloom, Donikatz, Kevin M. Dean, MicromatTech3, Artie, Alam Khan, Pendragon, Rahja, Gregg, to name just a few; I am sure to have missed quite a bunch of stars. I can remember only ganbustein as a late joiner who, having a relatively small number of posts, was very helpful. The rest of the gurus (see above) had a lot. Besides, I never said that those who had most posts were the most helpful - this is what you imply, not me. You also implicitly acknowledge that other forums rank the numbers; so did the MFIF contrary to what you say. So saying that "We certainly don't do that here" sounds premature and on my radar qualifies as personal opinion only. I believe that we need some kind of vote on rankings or lack of them. It would be fine by me if the moderators and Tacit together decide on this matter. I will certainly comply.
Frankly, I don't understand why you started to pick on me in this rather obvious matter. I thought I was preaching to the choir. Maybe because of this? confused
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 12:59 AM

Quote:
...I never said that those who had most posts were the most helpful...

Originally Posted By: macnerd10
...in the old MFIF there was a pretty good correlation between the number of posts and "usefulness" of the poster.

Quote:
You also implicitly acknowledge that other forums rank the numbers; so did the MFIF contrary to what you say.

That's simply incorrect. "To rank" means to "give (someone or something) a rank or place within a grading system" (New Oxford American Dictionary). As I said earlier, we never did anything of the kind at MFIF.

(If, on the other hand, all you mean by "rank" is "show each poster's post count, thereby allowing readers to infer a correlation between number of posts and 'usefulness,'" then you're proving my point: when we do show post counts, (at least some) folks do infer a correlation between number of posts and 'usefulness'—that's exactly the phenomenon I'd like to prevent.)

Quote:
Frankly, I don't understand why you started to pick on me in this rather obvious matter.

First, there's no need for a persecution complex. You made a couple of posts lauding people for reaching 100 posts. I took that as an opportunity to raise an issue which was never satisfactorily resolved at MFIF: the tendency of the post-counting system to confer the mantle of authoritativeness on the most frequent posters.

But more importantly: you feel free to offer your opinion in matters such as these, and that's great! Should I not feel free to differ with what you say when I don't share your opinion? The fact that I don't drop it when your reply doesn't address what I'm concerned about isn't "picking on you." crazy

Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 01:20 AM
Quote:
"To rank" means to "give (someone or something) a rank or place within a grading system" (New Oxford American Dictionary). As I said earlier, we never did anything of the kind at MFIF.

Oh, please. What are the MacGurus, MacWizards and the likes but a ranking? You can call them titles but it does not change anything. Don't these names call for authority and respect from the newbies? And these were conferred on people based on the number of posts. Hope you would not deny that. And I still stand my ground that these people were the driving force behind MFIF and provided the lion's share of helpful troubleshooting solutions. And this includes the Mods as well.
A totally different question is whether we should implement any titles here. If you (and others) feel that it should not be done, fine. But there is nothing wrong congratulating people on their performance or, in this very particular case, activity. Anyway, in my opinion, this creates an atmosphere of friendliness and might show the newcomers (in part, of course) that they are among friends and can safely ask stupid questions without fearing to be ridiculed.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 09:53 AM
> FWIW, I've strongly urged that post counts be turned off altogether, since they don't provide any meaningful indication of the quality of advice offered by any particular poster.

I'm with you on this one; numbers and titles *are* meaningless (and you may recall that qualifying my MacWizard title was my impetus for creating my avatar).

Even having responses evaluated for "helpfulness" is not a particularly valid measurement, because the evaluators would need to have their evaluation capabilities evaluated before being allowed to evaluate.

The one thing I've run across and found useful is the "problem solved" indicator, but even that can run afoul of the "Oops! I spoke too soon syndrome."
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 01:21 PM
Quote:
Even having responses evaluated for "helpfulness" is not a particularly valid measurement, because the evaluators would need to have their evaluation capabilities evaluated before being allowed to evaluate.


Not true: it's meant to be subjective. If the person who asks the question finds it helpful, it's helpful to them. Period. That's what's being evaluated. In other models anyone who finds a post or thread helpful can award a plus or thumbs up or rep point or what-not. Either way, it's not meant to be an objective measure, it's meant to be subjective just like an eBay rating. Someone who is considered "helpful" by a large sample is more-likely to be helpful to the next person, but it's not meant to be definitive.

There must be SOME indicator of helpful folks and/or more-involved folks. Without any, it does a disservice to people looking for good help AND to people who spend lots of time helping (human psychology). I don't have any statistics, but forums don't do this stuff for the heck of it -- they do it because it helps.

As I wrote in another thread, I personally believe in merit-based numbers as more important. But I like the idea of having both visible so folks can not only see who tends to be very helpful, but also who tends to be actively responsive.
Posted By: Alam Khan Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 01:36 PM
Good to see the old crew! smile

Looks like the place is already up to a running start, as far as the participants go.

I expect that in time, blank white pages will get replaced by quickly appearing contents. wink

Alam

Posted By: jchuzi Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 02:07 PM
Good to see you here, Alam! cool
Posted By: Pendragon Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 02:52 PM
Welcome home, glad you found us.

Many may still be hunting about, so please please feel free to spread the word.

Alas, CNET, I fear, does not appreciate the competition.
Posted By: jchuzi Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 03:46 PM
What competition? As far as I'm concerned, CNET does not represent any competition at all. grin
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 06:59 PM
I am with you but it may be hard to implement a dual system if I got you right. Since we have conflicting opinions, we may as well leave it as is: with posts counting but no titles. People will eventually sort out who is into troubleshooting and who is mostly discussing stuff in the Lounge.
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 07:04 PM
Just because there are conflicting opinions doesn't mean the status quo should win. If unanimity were a prerequisite nothing would ever change. Once more-important site priorities are resolved, I'm sure this is something to be revisited down the line. One thing at a time.
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 07:08 PM
Fair enough!
BTW, what is your title, er..., operating system?
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 07:28 PM
Heh... As an IT guy I have access to too many PCs to bother listing, so in memorium of the old MFIF I've been using my old title as my sig since day 1. To be honest, I'm more likely to be posting from a Win XP box than anything else nowadays so who wants to see that in a sig? But I blame it on Dell; my Mini 9 running Leopard is back in the shop for the third time. And I blame THAT on Apple, who still doesn't offer a netbook. wink
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 08:13 PM
Doni, I was always wondering about that magic nickel. Can you tell us the story? It was before my time, I guess. You were supposed to be a MacWizard by the old nobility bill of rights.
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 09:42 PM
Hmmm... wouldn't it be nice if we could actually search MFIF so I could find the old thread?

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think maybe when the forums crashed way back when and we started anew, the title promotion system wasn't working correctly. In a thread on the topic, I made a joke about being willing to pay a nickel for one and voila -- one of the admins dubbed me Keeper of the Magic Nickel (titles still worked if done manually). I can't remember who did it, but I think alternaut? So yeah, there it is. I was gonna say I got it for slaying an evil Enron monster or something, but I'm too tired to think up such a good story. wink
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 10:01 PM
Couldn't find the original thread (only similar ones like it), but I did find something you might find interesting: "Abolish post counting!"
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/18/09 10:13 PM
Could not read it all (10 pages and I have to stay awake at work) and could not understand it all with its many digressions. Maybe Hal or some Mod could explain it better to us as having been part of that discussion 6 years ago. But I got the conclusion that there was no conclusion, and eventually titles were given that reflected all posts including the Lounge. I guess, it may be a difficult task to devise an algorithm that could count posts everywhere but in the Lounge.
Posted By: Kevin M. Dean Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 04:20 AM
Originally Posted By: donikatz
Hmmm... wouldn't it be nice if we could actually search MFIF so I could find the old thread?


Google...

site:macfixitforums.com search_words
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 07:35 AM
> Google...

site:macfixitforums.com search_words


Correction... site:archive.macfixitforums.com

(macfixitforums.com is now a link to CNET... Booo!)
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 10:57 AM

Nope, it works just fine with site:macfixitforums.com. Try it!

The MFIF server redirects those URLs, prepending them with archive. Same thing with links within MFIF to other URLs at MFIF.

Seems to be only links to the Main Index, or dead links that were already redirecting to the Main Index, which deposit the browser at CNET.
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 11:00 AM
Right, but how would I search a specific forum? Such a raw Google search is too wide to be useful.
Posted By: dkmarsh Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 11:03 AM

Yeah, if you can't remember a key phrase, you're sunk. (You must've been searching on variants of "be careful what you ask for," eh? BTW, it was Kurt to whom you owe your honorific; I do remember that much.)
Posted By: Gregg Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 01:07 PM
Those archived threads are taking a long time to load. Is that just me, or everyone?
Posted By: cyn Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 01:09 PM

Fix for macfixitforums archive slow loading
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 01:10 PM
Quote:
Those archived threads are taking a long time to load. Is that just me, or everyone?


In another thread, it was determined their ad server is what's slowing it down. If you block the ads with something like Adblock Plus in Firefox or with a hosts file, the site is pretty quick.

EDIT: cyn, you're too quick for me! laugh
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 01:26 PM
I'd just like to point out that I have more posts than Jon Chuzi. While this is probably the last time I'll ever be able to say that, it clearly means that for the time being, the quality of my posts is better. tongue smile
Posted By: cyn Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 01:27 PM
Kevin's post was a breeze to find 'cause it's stickied in the Lounge. wink

Here's the MFIF thread you were looking for: titles (attn moderator)
Posted By: donikatz Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 02:49 PM
Thanks cyn! I'd searched for everything from "titles" to "wish for" to "a nickel", but still couldn't come up with it. How'd you find it?
Posted By: joemikeb Re: Idea for login page - 08/19/09 05:16 PM
Quote:
What are the MacGurus, MacWizards and the likes but a ranking?

Agreed those titles implied a ranking but that implied ranking was based on the premise quantity equals quality which I, for one, am unwilling to accept. Unquestionably many, even most, of the very prolific contributors at MacFixit are excellent sources of good advice. On the other hand, there were others who although they were extremely prolific, contributed little of real value. So counting posts and those rankings could be very misleading to a newbie.

If we were to assign titles based on number of posts I would press for titles implying experience on the forum rather than knowledge or expertise. Something like Newcomer, member, old hand or perhaps Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, Senior. Scrub that last it could imply to some, levels of knowledge that may or may not be valid.
Posted By: macnerd10 Re: Idea for login page - 08/20/09 05:58 AM
Joe, I like that! Seen similar things on other forums. No titles would be OK too.
Posted By: artie505 Re: Idea for login page - 08/20/09 07:44 AM
> Nope, it works just fine with site:macfixitforums.com. Try it!

Got it; thanks!

I was confused by macfixitforums.com now linking to CNET.
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