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Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
#31190 09/13/14 09:01 PM
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I've got a 400/800 OWC external firewire drive that I set up some years ago with Apple Partition Map cuz I was using it then to back up both a PPC iMac and an INTEL iMac.

The old PPC iMax (ten years old) is soon to be a goner, and I'll be replacing it with a MacBook Air (and a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter to continue use of the old external firewire drive).

So I want to erase my external and set up it with three empty partitions under GUID.

I'd appreciate help on how to do this.

I think, don't know, this should be easy:

In order: Turn on the external, activate DU and select the external drive (not any of its partitions) and click on Erase. (Is there a special erase that would check and correct the external drive for bad drive spots? Where would I find the special?) Then I click on "partition" in DU, set up my partitions, and then afterwards (not before?) select GUID. Then save all this and I'm done?

Or is it not that simple?

Thanks for help.


Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
RHV #31191 09/13/14 10:53 PM
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I can answer the first part. When you select the Erase tab, you'll see a Security Options button. Click that and then opt to Zero Out Data. This takes much longer than a simple erase but will map out bad sectors (not to mention making it much more difficult to recover data).

I can't answer the part about partitioning but it sounds about right. Let someone else, who has actually done it, respond.


Jon

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Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
RHV #31192 09/13/14 11:16 PM
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I'll supplement Jon's response by suggesting that you run a surface scan on the drive before running "Zero Out Data".

ZOD will map out any bad blocks on the drive but won't give you any indication that it's done so, leaving you in the dark about a potentially dangerous situation, i.e. that you had them.

This post by joemikeb is informative, and his suggestion that you run a surface scan on any drive before you put it into use is an excellent one.

TechTool Pro, Drive Genius, and other such apps (but not DiskWarrior) can run surface scans, as can the TechTool Deluxe disc you may have gotten with AppleCare.

If you've got none of the above, you can run a scan via Terminal.


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Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
artie505 #31195 09/14/14 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
If you've got none of the above, you can run a scan via Terminal.

Color me interested! How?

Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
ganbustein #31196 09/14/14 04:38 AM
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(Uh, oh! When you don't know something that I think I know it worries me.)

Code:
sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk0 of=/dev/null conv=noerror bs=102400000 (Credit to Virtual 1 for the basic command)

I picked up that command way back in the MFIF days...haven't got a link to it, but there's a bit of commentary here, and I've got these snippets from the original MFIF thread in my "database":

Hal Itosis: "Adding [space]conv=noerror to the dd string should encourage it to proceed [in the event of error]. (Add [space]count="n" to limit data transfer for test.)"

Virtual 1: "I've also found that dd'ing the rdisk (the character device) is a lot faster than the disk (block device) but I don't understand why that is. I'd expect the block device to be faster."

Virtual 1: "ditto [sic] normally uses 512 byte blocks to do its transfer...produces a lot of very frequent IO calls. if you set BS, it changes the block size. It needs to be a multiple of 512. 10240000 is 20,000 x 512, so it makes it read/write 20,000 512 byte blocks at a time, more data in one gulp. In that case, it handles about 10mb per pass. This improves transfer speed." (My note: I've always assumed that "ditto" was a typo, because dd has a bs operand and it doesn't.)

Was I deluding myself all those years? I doubt that I was deluding myself all those years, because both V1 and Hal are exceptionally knowledgeable Terminal guys.

Edit: I forgot to mention that a while back I ran the command on an HDD on its way south with I/O errors, and it returned an error report, so I assume that's confirmation of its functionality.

Edit: I guess I should also mention that I've always run the command from the disk into which I was booted on the disk onto which I was booted...with no apparent issues or anomalous results.

Last edited by artie505; 09/14/14 09:31 PM. Reason: Credit to V1, add quotes, etc.

The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
artie505 #31197 09/14/14 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
I picked up that command way back in the MFIF days...haven't got a link to it...

I think you're referring to Weird start up problem.



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Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
RHV #31198 09/14/14 05:49 PM
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After you've erased the disk, go to the Partition tab of Disk Utility. Choose the partition scheme you'd like, then hit the Options button. That's where you can specify APC or GUID.


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Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
dkmarsh #31199 09/14/14 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
Originally Posted By: artie505
I picked up that command way back in the MFIF days...haven't got a link to it...

I think you're referring to Weird start up problem.

That's not the thread I had in mind.

When V1 posted the command I've got he didn't initially include "bs="; it was added later in the order of my quoted snippets (which don't appear in the thread to which you linked).


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
artie505 #31200 09/15/14 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
(Uh, oh! When you don't know something that I think I know it worries me.)

Oh, OK. I knew about (and have used) dd >/dev/null (and variations thereof). It forces every sector to be read.

However, it doesn't disable error correction. If the drive mis-reads the sector, but is able to figure out what it should have said, it proceeds as if the sector was fine. The sector does not get re-mapped unless the drive had to read it several times to get a reading that could barely be corrected. By the time the drive reports the error to you, the sector is dead, dead, dead.

Ideally, a surface scan should be more picky. It should tell the drive not to attempt error correction, because you're more interested in the location of defects than in the actual data. I thought you knew of a way to do that.

Oh well. I guess I'll keep waiting for Steve Gibson to stop getting distracted with SQRL and get back to work porting SpinRite to Macintosh.

Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
ganbustein #31201 09/15/14 06:30 AM
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I'm not sure I followed that.

dd > /dev/null can return false positives on a drive that's got "bad, but not too bad" sectors (i.e. blocks?)?

And what about re-mapping? Does "dd" actually re-map obviously bad sectors (same as Terminal > Erase > Zero Out Data) in addition to flagging their existence? (As far as I know, TTP, et al don't.)

Please clarify "By the time the drive reports the error to you, the sector is dead, dead, dead."

How do TechTool, et al differ from "dd"? (It sounds like you're saying that SpinRite is the only utility that actually deals with bad blocks as they should be dealt with [however that is].)

Thanks.

Edit: Could you run SpinRite on a Mac while booted into Windows, or is there something about the Mac architecture that would prevent it from running?

Last edited by artie505; 09/15/14 08:06 AM.

The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
artie505 #31204 09/15/14 04:39 PM
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From SpinRite 6.0 FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions:

Drives on non-PC platforms, such as Apple Macintosh or TiVo, may be temporarily relocated to a PC motherboard for data recovery, maintenance and repair by SpinRite.



dkmarsh—member, FineTunedMac Co-op Board of Directors
Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
dkmarsh #31207 09/16/14 04:50 AM
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Thanks for the answer.

So it's neither OS X nor Mac formatting of a disk that's critical, but the nature of the hardware itself.

I could read up on and try to digest the reasons for that for the rest of my life and get no closer to comprehension than I am right now.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
artie505 #31211 09/16/14 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
I could read up on and try to digest the reasons for that for the rest of my life and get no closer to comprehension than I am right now.

Artie maybe this will help. The operating system sees every disk as a series of tracks and each track is divided into an equal number of data sectors. The physical reality is the outer tracks are significantly longer than the inner tracks so to maximize storage on the drives there are more data sectors on the outer tracks than the inner tracks. To further complicate things each drive make and model has a different number of sectors on each track and even a different number of platters and recording surfaces. So rather than the OS having to know the actual physical layout of every make and model drive on the market (an impossible task) the hardware and firmware in the drive compensate for these differences and allow the OS to see the same logical view of each and every drive regardless of the actual physical layout. Since tasks such as identifying and remapping bad data sectors happen at the physical level and can only be performed by the drive hardware and firmware.

Surface scans ignore the data and even the logical view of the drive and are performed by calls to even lower level commands in the drive firmware and hardware. SpinRite operates at an even lower command level than TechTool Pro, Drive Genius, and Unix.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
dkmarsh #31213 09/16/14 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: dkmarsh

From SpinRite 6.0 FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions:

Drives on non-PC platforms, such as Apple Macintosh or TiVo, may be temporarily relocated to a PC motherboard for data recovery, maintenance and repair by SpinRite.

I do not have any PC motherboards at my disposal. I do not own, and do not plan to purchase, any license to any version of Windows. Nor do I own or plan to purchase any virtualization software. (Bootcamp doesn't help. I'd still need to purchase and install Windows.)

Steve Gibson's a pretty sharp fellow, but he does have his blind spots. One of them is that he cannot seem to fathom the notion of a Macintosh-only shop. I think he thinks the people clamoring for a Macintosh version of SpinRite are seeking only the minor convenience of not having to move a drive from one one of their non-Windows computers to one of their assuredly more plentiful Windows computers each time they want to apply SpinRite to it.

Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
artie505 #31214 09/16/14 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
Does "dd" actually re-map obviously bad sectors (same as Terminal > Erase > Zero Out Data) in addition to flagging their existence? (As far as I know, TTP, et al don't.)

Please clarify "By the time the drive reports the error to you, the sector is dead, dead, dead."

How do TechTool, et al differ from "dd"? (It sounds like you're saying that SpinRite is the only utility that actually deals with bad blocks as they should be dealt with [however that is].)

dd doesn't actually re-map anything. It just reads the data. It's the drive itself that does re-mapping, if any. If it remaps a sector, it does it transparently, without telling your computer that it did so. Your computer never knows which sectors have been remapped.

The data as written on disk does not look anything like what you think it looks like. If you write all zeroes to a disk sector, what actually gets written might look like 376937693769.... That is, your data will be remapped to a "group code", so that there are never too many zeroes or ones in sequence. (It's hard for the drive to tell the difference between 20 zeroes in a row and 21 in a row. In fact, it probably has a hard time distinguishing between 3 zeroes in a row and 4 in a row. So it never writes more than 3 in a row.)

The data is also accompanied by a rather large number of parity bits, enough to recover data that was read incorrectly. I won't go into the mathematics of error correction. It's fascinating math, but the margin of this comment is to narrow to contain it. A perhaps more understandable analogy is spelling correction. Forum posts not infrequently contain speling and grammatical errors; when you read them, you usually take the errors in stride. Even if you notice them, you know what was meant, and bothering to post a correction just adds noise to the thread.

The disk drive does the same. It uses sophisticated math, just like you use sophisticated linguistics, to figure out what was meant when it notices an error. Its main concern is giving you the corrected data as quickly as possible. Taking the time to write the correction back to disk would slow the drive down considerably. There is a lot of error correction going on. Disk drive designers have always been pushing the limits of the technology to squeeze as much data onto the drive as possible. That drives up the raw error rate. To compensate, error correction technology keeps pace, so that most of the many many errors are corrected on the fly, and you never know about them.

If a sector goes bad, the drive can relocate it to a spare sector, but spare sectors are few and precious. The drive won't relocate a sector lightly. It's got to be really bad to warrant using up a spare.

When the drive sees an error, it will first try to correct it. Parity bits may allow it to detect and correct any error that is limited to within, say, 20 consecutive bits. (Surface defects tend to produces errors in bursts, and the correction algorithm is optimized for that.) If the error can be corrected, well and good. The drive returns the corrected data, and ignores the error.

If it can't correct the error, it'll try re-reading it. It may get different data on the next attempt, and it might this time be correctable. Again, the drive returns the corrected data and ignores the error. In the meantime, though, the platter has had to make another revolution, and your read speed goes down considerably. You wonder why the drive seems to be so slow now, but there is no other indication that anything is amiss.

The drive will keep re-reading the sector until it gets it right. (Drives don't actually read sector by sector anymore. They actually read an entire track at a time, apply error correction to the track as a whole, and then give you sectors from the corrected data. I'll continue to talk about reading sectors, though.) There will be some number of read attempts that will trigger the drive to take more drastic action. Suppose it can eventually read the sector, but it took more than, say, 5 tries. At this point, the drive may attempt re-writing the sector with the finally corrected data. This is going to take two more revolutions of the disk: one to re-write the corrected data, and one to re-read what it just wrote.

If it can successfully re-read what it re-wrote, it considers the problem solved, and moves on.

Only if it tries re-writing the data and discovers that it still cannot re-read it will it consider the sector bad. It'll relocate that sector, writing the correct data to the spare sector (and taking another revolution to do so). I repeat: errors are common, spare sectors are scarce. The drive won't use up a spare sector just because of an easily corrected error.

Whatever software was asking for the data remains oblivious to all of this, except possibly to notice that the read took an unusually long time. It gets the correct data, and moves on.

But it may be that after some larger number of re-reads, the drive has still been unable to read enough of the sector to successfully correct it. After 99 attempts, say, the drive may give up. Only then does it report a read error back to the computer. By this time, whatever data was originally written to the sector should be considered lost; even with error correction, the drive is unable to reproduce the data. That's what I meant by: "By the time the drive reports the error to you, the sector is dead, dead, dead."


I cannot speak for what TechTool etc. do. Disk drives contain internal preferences that are accessed using different commands than the commands that read and write data. SpinRite has several modes of operation. In some modes, it uses these commands to tell the drive "Report any errors, even if you can correct them. (But give me the corrected data if you can.)" In other modes, it tells the drive "Make one attempt to read the track. Give me the raw data, including the parity bits. I'll do my own error correction." In the latter mode, it may re-read the track multiple times, watching how even correctable errors move around to discern exactly where the defects are. Comparing multiple reads of the raw data, it can correct what the drive cannot: errors that are not limited to a single burst. In other modes, once it's able to read the data, it will write it back but complemented (changing 0s to 1s and vice versa), verify that it can read it, then write it back again uncomplemented, verifying that it can still read it back. (Some defects manifest themselves as "stuck" bits. They might always read back as 0 even if 1 was written. Writing zeroes won't detect such defects. Of course the proper way to do this is to choose data that complements what's actually written. If an all-zero sector actually gets written as 3769..., you need to choose data that will actually get written as c8a6... . That can require intimate knowledge of the drive, potentially more than is knowable.)


I know this has been a long post. If you're still reading, a relevant example from another topic of discourse might help.

One episode of Star Trek featured aliens with green skin. What looks green to the eye may not look green to the camera, so they'd paint the actors green, film them, and then look at the developed images. The skin tones came out normal; no hint of green. So they'd try another green paint. And another. Every time, the green failed to show up on film. Finally they talked to the technicians doing the post-production, who complained: "I don't what you guys are doing with lighting, but for some reason the aliens are all coming out green, and we're having a heck of a time getting them back to flesh tones."

The point is, auto-correction can get in your way. What you see is not always what was there to see. A sector may read OK, but that doesn't mean it is OK.

Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
jchuzi #31216 09/17/14 01:11 AM
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"When you select the Erase tab, you'll see a Security Options button. Click that and then opt to Zero Out Data."

I used the Security Options button, but clicking on it in DU on my Mavs 10.9.4 did not offer a "Zero Out Data" option. It offered no options but one, viz., the option to erase more or less securely depending on how long one is willing to wait for the erasure to complete. The prose read as follows (I eliminate the needless verbiage)

"Secure erase overwrites data accessible to OS X. Certain types of media data may not be accessible and so cannot be erased."

Below that prose is a slider that one can move from "fastest" to "most secure".

That is followed by a further warning to the effect that the use of the slider does not erase all files on the disk and so certain disk recovery applications may be able to recover some of the files.

Then you can click on "Erase".

It seems that the options (plural) in Security Options have been trimmed back to a plurality of options under just ONE task: To erase less or more securely depending on how long one wants to wait.

I had no reason to be interested in special erasure security; so I did not run the slider.

Anyway, I had no problems in converting my external APM external drive to GUID. Then I used CCC to make a bootable clone of my Mavericks HD. And I booted from that clone and all seems fine.

Thanks for your quick comment.

Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
joemikeb #31224 09/19/14 07:59 PM
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A quick note to you and ganbustein that I'm not ignoring your responses.

I've got an iritis flareup going on in my reading eye, and I can't focus on my screen well enough to digest and respond.

As soon as "eye" can see, though. frown


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Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
RHV #31225 09/19/14 09:24 PM
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The security slider is a simplified user interface to the same erase options we had in the past. In the version of Disk Utility that comes with Yosemite the statement reads
Originally Posted By: Disk Utility
Note: Secure Erase overwrites data accessible to Mac OS X. Certain types of media may retain data that Disk Utility cannot erase.
Then for each position on the slider there is an explanation of what it does. Only the Fastest setting has the comment…
Originally Posted By: Disk Utility
This option does not securely erase the files on the disk. A disk recovery application may be able to recover the files.
In other words it is the same thing as we have always had if not security option were chosen. Only the directory is erased.

The next three position of the slider are the same
  1. 1 pass write zeroes
  2. 3 pass, two passes of random data followed by single pass of "known data"
  3. 7 pass write data

There is no change from previous versions of OS X except in the UI.

Last edited by joemikeb; 09/19/14 09:26 PM.

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
ganbustein #31229 09/19/14 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: ganbustein
If you're still reading...

I've read it a couple of times (I need a few passes on this kind of stuff before I begin to "get it") and, as much as anything, enjoy your writing style.

It's one of the things I really like about FTM….we have a lot of contributors who are not only knowledgeable but also very literate.

Last edited by ryck; 09/19/14 10:40 PM.

ryck

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Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
joemikeb #31255 09/22/14 02:16 PM
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Thanks for that.

Personally, I'd prefer to see some brief info on what options fall under the slider before using it. Otherwise not seeing the words one was seeking, one might pass over it -- as I did.

Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
joemikeb #31420 10/06/14 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
I could read up on and try to digest the reasons for that for the rest of my life and get no closer to comprehension than I am right now.

Artie maybe this will help. [....]

Thanks for that, joemike; once again, your expertise and writing style have come together to comprehensibly clarify an arcane aspect of computers.

Yes, it was extremely helpful...a welcome broadening of my computer horizon. smile


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
ganbustein #31421 10/06/14 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: ganbustein
Originally Posted By: dkmarsh
From SpinRite 6.0 FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions:

Drives on non-PC platforms, such as Apple Macintosh or TiVo, may be temporarily relocated to a PC motherboard for data recovery, maintenance and repair by SpinRite.

I do not have any PC motherboards at my disposal. I do not own, and do not plan to purchase, any license to any version of Windows. Nor do I own or plan to purchase any virtualization software. (Bootcamp doesn't help. I'd still need to purchase and install Windows.)

When dk posted that FAQ in response to
Originally Posted By: artie
Could you run SpinRite on a Mac while booted into Windows, or is there something about the Mac architecture that would prevent it from running?
my first thought was "I wonder if that's explicit", but I assumed it was a naive question and didn't ask; your response suggests that it wasn't naive at all, though...that SpinRite can run on a Mac in virtualization mode.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
ganbustein #31422 10/06/14 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted By: ganbustein
Originally Posted By: artie505
Does "dd" actually re-map obviously bad sectors (same as Terminal > Erase > Zero Out Data) in addition to flagging their existence? (As far as I know, TTP, et al don't.)

Please clarify "By the time the drive reports the error to you, the sector is dead, dead, dead."

How do TechTool, et al differ from "dd"? (It sounds like you're saying that SpinRite is the only utility that actually deals with bad blocks as they should be dealt with [however that is].)

dd doesn't actually re-map anything. [....]

Thanks for that! Despite the complicated subject matter, it was still an easily understandable response to my questions. smile

Ever slow slowly, the darkness that envelops my deuced Mac(hina) is giving way to light.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Changing my External Drive from APC to GUID
ryck #31423 10/06/14 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
It's one of the things I really like about FTM….we have a lot of contributors who are not only knowledgeable but also very literate.

Second that!

I don't spend all that much time in other forums, so my input may not be on the mark, but I've never run across so much as a single post outside of FTM that rises to the level of expertise and teaching/writing ability displayed in oh, so many FTM posts.

I sometimes think that FineTunedMac ought to be changed to FTMUniversity, and I'm certain that I'd know less than 25% (maybe even 10%) of what I know about Macs and OS X had I spent the same thousands of hours I've spent at MFIF/FTM in any other forum directed towards my level of "expertise".

Thanks, guys!!! smile


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