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Partitioning Query
#51864 06/20/19 08:38 AM
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ryck Online OP
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I have some tools that are 32 bit and which are not going to work in future versions of the OS…not even Mojave. I also have some software that might work in Mojave but definitely will not work in versions of the OS after Mojave.

Call me intransigent, but I have no desire to buy new tools or replace certain pieces of software as they fully suit my needs and will for a long time. However, for banking and other on-line requirements I will want the security of future OS’s.

My internal drive is 1TB but I am only using about 25% of it. Therefore I am thinking about partitioning the drive to keep old software and tools on one, and everything new or security sensitive on the other.

Questions:

1. I assume that, after a fresh backup and doing the partitioning, nothing further needs to be done to the original OS and software. Yes, No?

2. I assume I can use the backup (Carbon Copy Clone) to “restore” to the new partition. Yes, No?


If these assumptions are correct I will upgrade the OS on the new partition.


3. Since Safari and Mail will be used on the new partition, should I remove them from the original partition for security? Are there any good arguments not to remove them?

4. I could receive documents in Mail on the new partition that I may wish to have on the first partition (e.g. to print). If so, does Drag and Drop work well between partitions?

5. How will Time Machine react? Does it require directions about which partition to back up?

6. Are there going to be complications with the fact that we have more than one account?

7. Have I missed anything? Any cautions or suggestions?

Last edited by ryck; 06/20/19 08:46 AM.

ryck

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Re: Partitioning Query
ryck #51865 06/20/19 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
Any cautions or suggestions?

My M.O. generally involves a total lack of caution; I've learned a lot about OS X/macOS as a result. laugh

I don't think it's critical, but it may help if we know whether your drive is formatted HFS+ or APFS.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Partitioning Query
ryck #51866 06/20/19 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
1. I assume that, after a fresh backup and doing the partitioning, nothing further needs to be done to the original OS and software. Yes, No?

Partitioning a drive is a risky process so the partitioned drive may be empty or damaged at the end of the partitioning process. I would assume and be prepared for the worst.

Originally Posted By: ryck
2. I assume I can use the backup (Carbon Copy Clone) to “restore” to the new partition. Yes, No?

Yes as well as to the old partition.

Originally Posted By: ryck
3. Since Safari and Mail will be used on the new partition, should I remove them from the original partition for security? Are there any good arguments not to remove them?

Yes you can remove them and given the limited use you foresee for the old partition you might never run into a problem, but I would be loathe to give up Safari because there may be times you need to access the internet and it would be so handy — albeit less secure.

Originally Posted By: ryck
4. I could receive documents in Mail on the new partition that I may wish to have on the first partition (e.g. to print). If so, does Drag and Drop work well between partitions?

Just like between drives the default drag and drop is a COPY so the file will be duplicated on both partitions (volumes).

Originally Posted By: ryck
5. How will Time Machine react? Does it require directions about which partition to back up?

Time Machine will only back up the current boot volume so you will need to setup Time Machine in both partitions, but you can use the same Time Machine drive. You will end up with two Time Machine backup sets each in its own separate image file.

Originally Posted By: ryck
6. Are there going to be complications with the fact that we have more than one account?

No each will be a unique entity and a unique Time Machine backup data set.

Originally Posted By: ryck
7. Have I missed anything? Any cautions or suggestions?

If your drive is formatted APFS, Apple. recommends creating a separate "Volume" rather than partitioning. In that case each "Volume" potentially has the entire capacity of the drive available to it and the Volumes can expand and contract as needed unlike partitions which are a fixed size. Although APFS is not optimized for Hard Drives I have a 1TB HD formatted APFS with two volumes on it. It works well and is a far more flexible option than partitioning. This would not change any of the other six answers. If your boot drive is an SSD and you will not be using a version of macOS prior to 10.14 (Mojave) I would strongly urge you to choose this option.

AFTER THOUGHT

If you choose to take the option of storing your data on iCloud, both of your partitions could share the same accounts, Mail, Passwords, settings, etc. The only difference being the operating system and the 32 bit apps in Mojave. I do exactly this between two computers, an iPad, and an iPhone. As long as you have a reliable internet connection it is seamless and invisible. I recently had the opportunity to test this when we suffered an extended outage with our internet service provider and I just plugged my iPhone in to the computer and it worked perfectly. Just go to System Preferences > iCloud > iCloud Drive > Options and check everything especially "Desktop and Documents Folders". Then be sure all your data and projects are stored in you Documents folder and at the bottom of the window check Optimize Mac Storage. CAUTION Allow a day or two for this to settle before implementing your plan.


Last edited by joemikeb; 06/20/19 01:24 PM. Reason: AFTER THOUGHT

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

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Re: Partitioning Query
joemikeb #51870 06/21/19 07:58 AM
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I'm running a configuration similar to what ryck is contemplating, so I'll add to your your usual exceptional job of heavy lifting. (My boot volume is Mojave, and I've got a High Sierra volume and a volume with a clone of the Mojave volume on my internal, APFS formatted SSD.)

BASIC SECURITY: Each volume has Disk Utility as an UNhidden, i.e. in my face, login item, and the very first thing I do when I boot into one of them is unmount the other two.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: ryck
3. Since Safari and Mail will be used on the new partition, should I remove them from the original partition for security? Are there any good arguments not to remove them?

Yes you can remove them and given the limited use you foresee for the old partition you might never run into a problem, but I would be loathe to give up Safari because there may be times you need to access the internet and it would be so handy — albeit less secure.

I've maintained both Mail and Safari in my HS volume. Safari, of course, isn't up to date, but I'm never sure of when I may need it, never for potentially dangerous browsing, but for basic research. You may also need Mail, too, at any given time, and there's no security reason of which I"m aware to not perpetuate it. I don't launch either app other than when I need to.

Originally Posted By: ryck
4. I could receive documents in Mail on the new partition that I may wish to have on the first partition (e.g. to print). If so, does Drag and Drop work well between partitions?

Just like between drives the default drag and drop is a COPY so the file will be duplicated on both partitions (volumes).

If you maintain Mail on the old volume, anything that's on your server that hasn't been d/l'ed to that volume, i.e. your documents, will d/l when you launch it, so drag & drop will be unnecessary.

An aside as respects drag & drop, though: dragging and COMMAND-dropping an item will move it from one volume to the other with no duplication.


Originally Posted By: ryck
7. Have I missed anything? Any cautions or suggestions?

If your drive is formatted APFS, Apple. recommends creating a separate "Volume" rather than partitioning. In that case each "Volume" potentially has the entire capacity of the drive available to it and the Volumes can expand and contract as needed unlike partitions which are a fixed size. Although APFS is not optimized for Hard Drives I have a 1TB HD formatted APFS with two volumes on it. It works well and is a far more flexible option than partitioning. This would not change any of the other six answers. If your boot drive is an SSD and you will not be using a version of macOS prior to 10.14 (Mojave) I would strongly urge you to choose this option.

Equally strongly second.

In addition, you can fix the sizes of your volumes if you prefer, and changing your volume scheme to either add or delete volumes is easier than with a partition scheme.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Partitioning Query
artie505 #51872 06/21/19 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
BASIC SECURITY: Each volume has Disk Utility as an UNhidden, i.e. in my face, login item, and the very first thing I do when I boot into one of them is unmount the other two.

Have you thought about creating a script or workflow to delete the other drives and adding it to your login items? You wouldn't even have to call Disk Utility as this can all be done through Finder or the command line.

Originally Posted By: artie505
I've maintained both Mail and Safari in my HS volume. Safari, of course, isn't up to date, but I'm never sure of when I may need it, never for potentially dangerous browsing, but for basic research. You may also need Mail, too, at any given time, and there's no security reason of which I"m aware to not perpetuate it. I don't launch either app other than when I need to.

As far as Mail and Safari DATA — including downloads — is concerned my scheme using iCloud renders those considerations mute. Both systems "see" the same data set from iCloud. In the past Mail has been through several iterations of data storage and organizations, but the advent of data sharing between iOS, iPadOS, TVOS, and macOS has effectively stabilized all that so at least for the present it is a non-issue.

Originally Posted By: artie505
you can fix the sizes of your volumes if you prefer

Yes, but the fixed size is IMHO the single biggest disadvantage of partitioning and the reason I quite partitioning drives some 16 or 17 years ago. Conversely the ability to grow or shrink as needed is a major advantage/feature of APFS volumes. The only good reason I can think of for fixing the size of an APFS volume would be to limit a child's, or untrustworthy employee's, ability to collect internet junk, apps, and games.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Partitioning Query
joemikeb #51874 06/21/19 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
BASIC SECURITY: Each volume has Disk Utility as an UNhidden, i.e. in my face, login item, and the very first thing I do when I boot into one of them is unmount the other two.

Have you thought about creating a script or workflow to delete the other drives and adding it to your login items? You wouldn't even have to call Disk Utility as this can all be done through Finder or the command line.

All of the above, but I'm not interested in learning AppleScript, if by "workflow" you mean Automator, I've looked into it, and it's beyond me, and I've also looked into the Terminal commands to do the job, but since I've got far more time on my hands than I know what to do with (My retirement avocation is sleeping.), I've stuck with the easy road because it uses up a little bit of that time. tongue

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
I've maintained both Mail and Safari in my HS volume. Safari, of course, isn't up to date, but I'm never sure of when I may need it, never for potentially dangerous browsing, but for basic research. You may also need Mail, too, at any given time, and there's no security reason of which I"m aware to not perpetuate it. I don't launch either app other than when I need to.

As far as Mail and Safari DATA — including downloads — is concerned my scheme using iCloud renders those considerations mute. Both systems "see" the same data set from iCloud. In the past Mail has been through several iterations of data storage and organizations, but the advent of data sharing between iOS, iPadOS, TVOS, and macOS has effectively stabilized all that so at least for the present it is a non-issue.

Having only one device, the admittedly wonderful benefits you get from using the cloud have absolutely no appeal to me.

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: artie505
you can fix the sizes of your volumes if you prefer

Yes, but the fixed size is IMHO the single biggest disadvantage of partitioning and the reason I quite partitioning drives some 16 or 17 years ago. Conversely the ability to grow or shrink as needed is a major advantage/feature of APFS volumes. The only good reason I can think of for fixing the size of an APFS volume would be to limit a child's, or untrustworthy employee's, ability to collect internet junk, apps, and games.

I threw out the possibility only because it's there; frankly, though, I've never been able to figure out a reason to use it.

On the other hand, though, I used partitions for years before the advent of APFS and never ran out of room in any of them.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Partitioning Query
joemikeb #51875 06/21/19 06:27 PM
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ryck Online OP
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Thank you for, as usual, a lot of good information and guidance. I have a couple of followup questions:

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Partitioning a drive is a risky process so the partitioned drive may be empty or damaged at the end of the partitioning process. I would assume and be prepared for the worst.

I am assuming the greatest risk is in having Disk Utility do the partitioning why the original OS and data remain on the drive. Do I reduce the risk if I:

1. Make my CCC backup.
2. Erase the entire drive
3. Partition the drive
3. Restore to each of the partitions with my CCC copy

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: ryck
5. How will Time Machine react? Does it require directions about which partition to back up?

Time Machine will only back up the current boot volume so you will need to setup Time Machine in both partitions, but you can use the same Time Machine drive. You will end up with two Time Machine backup sets each in its own separate image file.

Since I already have one drive, which is not large enough to backup the entire Terrabyte, I could get another drive and have 2 Time Machine drives. Am I correct to assume if I have a Time Machine drive set up for each of the drives, that Time Machine will work automatically depending which partition is booted at the time?

Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Originally Posted By: ryck
7. Have I missed anything? Any cautions or suggestions?

If your drive is formatted APFS, Apple. recommends creating a separate "Volume" rather than partitioning. In that case each "Volume" potentially has the entire capacity of the drive available to it and the Volumes can expand and contract as needed unlike partitions which are a fixed size.

I have a Fusion Drive which I assume is HFS. This is what “About this Mac” says:

APPLE HDD ST1000DM003:

Capacity: 1 TB (1,000,204,886,016 bytes)
Model: APPLE HDD ST1000DM003
Revision: AQ04
Serial Number: Z4YF4LRH
Native Command Queuing: Yes
Queue Depth: 32
Removable Media: No
Detachable Drive: No
BSD Name: disk1
Rotational Rate: 7200
Medium Type: Rotational
Partition Map Type: GPT (GUID Partition Table)
S.M.A.R.T. status: Verified
Volumes:
EFI:
Capacity: 209.7 MB (209,715,200 bytes)
File System: MS-DOS FAT32
BSD Name: disk1s1
Content: EFI
Volume UUID: 0E239BC6-F960-3107-89CF-1C97F78BB46B
disk1s2:
Capacity: 999.35 GB (999,345,127,424 bytes)
BSD Name: disk1s2
Content: Apple_CoreStorage
Recovery HD:
Capacity: 650 MB (650,002,432 bytes)
File System: HFS+
BSD Name: disk1s3
Content: Apple_Boot
Volume UUID: FEDE0E32-2763-3ECF-9108-15FE7C487462


ryck

"What Were Once Vices Are Now Habits" The Doobie Brothers

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Re: Partitioning Query
ryck #51876 06/21/19 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
I am assuming the greatest risk is in having Disk Utility do the partitioning why the original OS and data remain on the drive. Do I reduce the risk if I:

1. Make my CCC backup.
2. Erase the entire drive
3. Partition the drive
3. Restore to each of the partitions with my CCC copy

That would pretty well eliminate the risk. I just performed the same operations preparing for the Catalina Public beta and it was a "piece of cake".(By-the-way my boot drives are all Filevault encrypted and CCC did not recommend cloning to a previously encrypted drive, so I had to clone to an unencrypted drive and then run Filevault to encrypt the volume.)

Originally Posted By: ryck
Since I already have one drive, which is not large enough to backup the entire Terrabyte, I could get another drive and have 2 Time Machine drives. Am I correct to assume if I have a Time Machine drive set up for each of the drives, that Time Machine will work automatically depending which partition is booted at the time?

As far as Time Machine is concerned each bootable volume is essentially a different computer. (In fact when you setup your Apple account on the second volume, you will receive a report that another computer has logged onto your account.) You can…
  • back both bootable volumes up to the same Time Machine drive,
  • back each bootable volume up to their own unique Time Machine drive
  • back one or both bootable volumes up to multiple Time Machine drives

[*]Each bootable volume will have its own System Preferences > Time Machine preference pane and you select the Time Machine drive(s) there. Once that is established you do NOT clone back and forth between the two. If you like to keep a clone volume then you will need to choose one of the following options:
  1. A target clone drive with…
    1. A separate partition or APFS volume for the clone of each boot volume
    2. a separate non-bootable sparse disk image file for each of your bootable volumes (this is the option I am using because I have a TechTool ProToGo thumb drive with CCC on it to use if I need to recover from a clone. I am far more likely to use the Recovery Drive and recover from a Time Machine backup than I am to recover using a clone, but just in case...)
  2. A separate drive for each clone.


Originally Posted By: ryck
I have a Fusion Drive which I assume is HFS.

It is formatted MacOS Extended (a.k.a. HFS+). APFS was not supported on Fusion Drives until macOS 10.14 (Mojave) and I have no experience with APFS on a Fusion drive. I realize that like all of us, your computer budget is limited, but I have what I believe is a better option for you than either partitioning or and additional APFS volume — an external Disk Drive for your secondary boot drive. This external drive would...
  • Have the fastest interface available on your computer — in rank order from fastest to slowest those would be…
    1. Thunderbolt 3
    2. Thunderbolt 2
    3. USB C
    4. USB 3.1 Gen 2 (USB C)
    5. USB 3.1 Gen 1/USB 3.0
    6. Firewire (although Firewire is going out so you might not want to go that route)
    7. USB 2.0
  • Ideally bus powered (which for all practical purposes limits you to 2 TB)
  • If the drives offers an interface in the top half of the list an SSD would be really nice an a hedge against a faster computer in the future. Failing that and costing considerably less a 7200 rpm HD would certainly suffice.
  • With an interface in the bottom half of the list a 2400 rpm drive would be fast enough.
  • A possible option for both an external boot drive and a Time Machine drive as well would be this OWC dual drive enclosure configured as independent drives and populated with drives of your own choice. Possibly even one say 512GB SSD and one high capacity HD for a Time Machine backup.
. NOTE: it is easy to dream when you are spending someone else's money. 🙄

Last edited by joemikeb; 06/21/19 08:13 PM. Reason: clarification

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Partitioning Query
ryck #51879 06/22/19 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
Since I already have one drive, which is not large enough to backup the entire Terrabyte, I could get another drive and have 2 Time Machine drives.

Depending upon how much of that terabyte you actually use or expect to use, the drive you've already got may suffice. (You'll gain advantage by swapping your 320 GB Time Machine drive with your 500GB Carbon Copy Clone drive.)


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Partitioning Query
artie505 #51895 06/24/19 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: artie505
Originally Posted By: ryck
Since I already have one drive, which is not large enough to backup the entire Terrabyte, I could get another drive and have 2 Time Machine drives.

Depending upon how much of that terabyte you actually use or expect to use, the drive you've already got may suffice.

I should have been clearer. I meant the 500GB drive I have, and now use for full CCC backups, wouldn't be large enough for the 1TB internal drive after partioning. So, this is what I'm looking at:

1. This drive for the full CCC backups of my internal drive.

2. The 320 GB drive for Time Machine on the smaller partition. The data in it will be less than the 250 BG now used as I will be turfing some applications and Mail that will not be needed.

3. The 500 GB drive for Time Machine on the larger partition. And, before anybody pops in with recommendations for a much larger TM backup....I don't need it. I cannot recall the last time I had to look waaay back for something. To me TM is just a spare backup.

The only thing I don't know at this point, is how CCC will handle the 1TB backup. I remain uncertain what I need to do when I ask CCC to clone the 1TB internal drive, which has two partitions. Am I going through the backup process once or twice? That is, when I instruct CCC to make a clone of my partitioned internal drive, does CCC:

1. Recognize that there are partitions and make a copy of the entire drive including the two partitions and their contents? (Only one backup process)

OR

2. Require me first to partition the backup drive and then go through the CCC process twice? (Once for each partition)

Last edited by ryck; 06/24/19 07:49 PM.

ryck

"What Were Once Vices Are Now Habits" The Doobie Brothers

iMac (Retina 5K, 27", 2020), 3.8 GHz 8 Core Intel Core i7, 8GB RAM, 2667 MHz DDR4
OS Ventura 13.6.3
Canon Pixma TR 8520 Printer
Epson Perfection V500 Photo Scanner c/w VueScan software
TM on 1TB LaCie USB-C
Re: Partitioning Query
ryck #51897 06/24/19 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
1. Recognize that there are partitions and make a copy of the entire drive including the two partitions and their contents? (Only one backup process)

OR

2. Require me first to partition the backup drive and then go through the CCC process twice? (Once for each partition)

Each partition of a partitioned HFS+ formatted drive is seen by the system as a volume. CCC clones the VOLUME not the drive, so you will have to clone each partition/volume separately (go through the cloning process twice). Your target drive will either have to be partitioned appropriately or you will have to CCC each partition to a separate sparse disk image file on the target drive. While a sparse disk image can be mounted as a volume for file recovery purposes IT IS NOT BOOTABLE.

Last edited by joemikeb; 06/24/19 08:57 PM. Reason: lost quote

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: Partitioning Query
ryck #51900 06/25/19 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: ryck
...this is what I'm looking at:

1. This drive for the full CCC backups of my internal drive.

I'm working on my second incarnation of that very same enclosure.

The first one wasn't terribly well designed, and the USB 3 port failed, but the second one has been reworked, and I'm pleased with it.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Partitioning Query
joemikeb #51901 06/25/19 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
Each partition of a partitioned HFS+ formatted drive is seen by the system as a volume.

Just to avoid confusion down the road, the same holds true for each volume of an APFS formatted drive.

Each must be cloned via a separate CCC task.


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: Partitioning Query
artie505 #51903 06/25/19 12:35 PM
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I agree with Artie's assessment of the OWC Elite Pro mini, and I would recommend going with a 5400 rpm drive with a 2TB capacity. It would be plenty fast enough for your purpose and although 2TB may be overkill now you might find it invaluable in the future.

I have have an older Elite Pro mini USB 3.1 gen 1 with a 1TB 7200 rpm drive and an Elite Pro mini USB 3.1 gen 2 with a 5400 rpm 2TB drive and both have proven to be absolutely reliable and stable with HGST drives. I buy bare enclosures and populate them with the drive of my choice. I also have an OWC's Elite Pro (not the mini) which is also an excellent enclosure and can handle 3.5" drives which bumps potential capacity up to 14TB but the larger drives are not bus powered. That one has been with me for at least five years.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein

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