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back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
#18221 10/12/11 06:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
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Part 1: the dilema:

I work at a non-Apple-owned mac retail/service store and we keep getting people in that need to run 10.6 The last volley was a graphics design shop that got their building struck by lightning, requiring replacement of almost two dozen imacs, that were running the usual assortment of not entirely current pro software like quark, creative suite, etc, that were not compatible with Lion. Insurance pays for the machines but not the 20 grand to upgrade software to 10.7 compatible.

So as a solution I took a 10.6.3 retail installer (the latest snow retail available) and used it on an older imac to install to another hdd. I then ran the combo updater on it remotely, so it was still in pre-setup condition but was 10.6.8. This allowed it to boot on new macs that would not normally boot the 10.6.3 installer. We imaged that and used it to restore to all the new imacs.

It appears to have gone without a hitch. So this first part is just an FYI on the why and the how.

Part 2: installing Lion on a machine (or many machines) without an internet connection:

This involved downloading the installer, and extracting it to a bootable format. Somehow it seems to know the difference between being downloaded and living on a (8gb) flash drive. Anyway it is able to immediately run the installation without having to "contact apple" for anything, nor download the actual installation image. Very useful. Customers that bring in proof-of-purchase for Lion we are installing for them while-they-wait. (some live out in the boonies and can't possibly download it)

Part 3: the server:

Here's where it gets interesting. We're several versions behind on our point of sale software, which requires 10.5 or earlier on the server and the clients can go back to 10.4. But changes on Apple's GSX require us to update to a newer version that requires the server be on an intel. So we had to store use a new mini, that came with 10.7. The specific version of POS we wanted to install maintained support for powerpc on the terminals. We did our restore-to-10.6.8 trick and got that working, but the POS installer caused several problems with the server. Most of them were fixed with a permissions repair, but file sharing is down and I can't figure out how to fix it.

So we're just going to bite the bullet and upgrade the mini back to 10.7 and replace several terminals too. But that would be too easy! When I double clicked the 10.7 installer to reboot, it said the machine wasn't eligible! OK then, I'll just boot off it. No I won't, it just shut off on me. OK then, verbose boot. Shortest verbose boot I have EVER seen, three line asterist-framed banner telling me that this machine can't boot this version of OS X. Funny that, it SHIPPED with it.

OK then, to the basement, will just use the restore discs. No, I won't. There aren't any. OK I give up. Call applecare. Explain situation. He confirms that no machines that ship with lion come with restore media. He says apple either is or will be shipping 10.7 on a flash drive. (doesn't know status) So I remind him that this machine is already flat-out refusing to boot off it. Hmmm.

Then he reminds me that the 10.7 restore partition may still be on the hard drive. Praise the Lord, it is. And so now we are hopefully going forward without butchering our POS server. What a mess.

He also confirmed that there are a lot of people having problems like this. AND it sounds like Apple isn't going to let us get those install flash drives at wholesale, they'll only be available from Apple at retail price. (meaning we buy them at retail, and have to mark them up)

Thanks, Apple.


I work for the Department of Redundancy Department
Re: back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
Virtual1 #18236 10/12/11 11:56 PM
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I suspect what's happening here is that the machines currently shipping with 10.7 are running slightly different versions--at a guess, different kernel extensions for their specific hardware--than what's on the 10.7 flash drive you made (was it from the retail 1.7 download installer?). So it won't boot because the retail 10.7 flash drive installer doesn't have the correct kernel and/or kernel extensions for that machine. Kind of like how a black-label 10.6 installer CD won't boot all machines that came with 10.6.

Apple's internal partition is the equivalent of the gray-label install media that used to come with the computer. Unfortunately, this is the way the industry is moving--shipping a recovery partition rather than shipping operating system media.

I don't know what you're supposed to do if the hard drive fails. This actually happened on one of my sweeties' Dell laptop recently. The laptop hard drive took a crapper (hardware failure...and just out of warranty, too). Dell does not provide bootable operating system installers; the OS installer is on a recovery partition on the hard drive.

This prompted a wildly entertaining and VERY lengthy conversation with Dell customer support, that went something like this:

"Hi! We're looking for the install media for a Dell Inspiron laptop. The hard drive failed and has been replaced with a new drive, but we have no install media."

"We don't ship install media with that computer. Please re-install using the recovery partition."

"No can do. The hard drive was replaced."

"To boot from your recovery partition, press and hold these keys when you turn on the machine."

"There is no recovery partition. The hard drive has been replaced. We need the install media on CD or DVD."

"A CD or DVD is unnecessary. Your computer shipped with all reinstallation code on the recovery partition. To boot from the recovery partition, press and hold..."

So, yeah. The idea of shipping computers without media is so profoundly stupid it's hard to know where to start.


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Re: back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
tacit #18238 10/13/11 02:41 AM
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Before I installed Lion, I made a new clone of my startup volume. Then I updated the clone by running the downloaded Lion installer while booted from the clone, so I would have a Recovery HD volume on the drive containing the clone:

Code:
diskutil list
/dev/disk0
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *1.0 TB     disk0
   1:                        EFI                         209.7 MB   disk0s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS Macintosh HD            999.3 GB   disk0s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             650.0 MB   disk0s3
/dev/disk1
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *500.1 GB   disk1
   1:                        EFI                         209.7 MB   disk1s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS Super_Duper_Clone       487.0 GB   disk1s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             650.0 MB   disk1s3
   4:                  Apple_HFS eDrive                  12.1 GB    disk1s4
/dev/disk2
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *500.1 GB   disk2
   1:                        EFI                         209.7 MB   disk2s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS H_G_Wells               499.8 GB   disk2s2



I am now going to boot from the clone and install Lion Recovery Update:

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1464

I agree that not providing installation media is not a good strategy.


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Re: back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
tacit #18240 10/13/11 07:34 AM
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You've left us hanging... How was the issue resolved?


The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
Virtual1 #18241 10/13/11 08:18 AM
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> So as a solution I took a 10.6.3 retail installer (the latest snow retail available) and used it on an older imac to install to another hdd. I then ran the combo updater on it remotely, so it was still in pre-setup condition but was 10.6.8. This allowed it to boot on new macs that would not normally boot the 10.6.3 installer. We imaged that and used it to restore to all the new imacs.

So Macs that ship with Lion can boot from Snow Leopard media and run SL? I thought that was a more or less set-in-stone impossibility?

(Aside: That means that grelber is really not stuck with the Lion with which hir new iMac shipped?)

> He confirms that no machines that ship with lion come with restore media. He says apple either is or will be shipping 10.7 on a flash drive. (doesn't know status) So I remind him that this machine is already flat-out refusing to boot off it. Hmmm.

1. OS X Lion USB Thumb Drive - Apple Store (U.S.) has been listed since some time in August, but, to the best of my knowledge, is still not available other than directly from Apple. (Early word was that Apple would retain control for a while and then allow others to sell them, but I don't recall seeing any speculation about their cost to dealers.)

2. It was refusing to boot off the flash drive media you created, not one media that Apple shipped.

Last edited by artie505; 10/13/11 08:41 AM. Reason: Correction

The new Great Equalizer is the SEND button.

In Memory of Harv: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire
Re: back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
grelber #18249 10/13/11 10:08 AM
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Grelber, please start a separate thread for your question.

Edit: This was a reply to post #18247, which grelber then deleted.

Last edited by cyn; 10/13/11 10:57 AM.

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Re: back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
Virtual1 #18839 10/31/11 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Virtual1
So as a solution I took a 10.6.3 retail installer (the latest snow retail available) and used it on an older imac to install to another hdd. I then ran the combo updater on it remotely, so it was still in pre-setup condition but was 10.6.8. This allowed it to boot on new macs that would not normally boot the 10.6.3 installer. We imaged that and used it to restore to all the new imacs.

It appears to have gone without a hitch. So this first part is just an FYI on the why and the how.


Hey V1, have you tried SL on 2011 Mac Minis that shipped with Lion? 2011 iMacs work flawlessly, but I'm finding many threads with conflicting info re. 2011 Minis. Everyone seems to say there are CPU performance issues, but some folks say everything else works fine, while others say they have graphics problems. In our own tests (and we've tried it several different ways), we're having graphics problems. Just trying to find someone who isn't having graphics probs to confirm whether it's possible. Because we have a batch of 2011 Minis that need to run legacy apps. Thanks


Keeper of the Magic Nickel
Re: back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
donikatz #18841 11/01/11 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: donikatz
Hey V1, have you tried SL on 2011 Mac Minis that shipped with Lion? 2011 iMacs work flawlessly, but I'm finding many threads with conflicting info re. 2011 Minis. Everyone seems to say there are CPU performance issues, but some folks say everything else works fine, while others say they have graphics problems. In our own tests (and we've tried it several different ways), we're having graphics problems. Just trying to find someone who isn't having graphics probs to confirm whether it's possible. Because we have a batch of 2011 Minis that need to run legacy apps. Thanks


I have seen graphics glitches also but I didn't have a big enough sample to tell whether it was a one-off issue or what. I haven't tested it on anything except new imacs.


I work for the Department of Redundancy Department
Re: back and forth between 10.6 and 10.7
Virtual1 #18844 11/01/11 12:48 AM
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Gotcha, thanks. I'm beginning to be resigned to the fact that we'll have to store these until next year when we can budget software upgrades or we'll have to kludge together a funky virtualization solution (and train the users). So ridiculous. Thanks, Apple...


Keeper of the Magic Nickel

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