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The Internet and the Free Lunch
#34152 05/07/15 06:31 PM
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deniro Offline OP
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Since I started using the internet, about 1992 thanks to a programmer friend of mine, now at Nvidia, I've been worried about getting so much for free on the internet and because of the internet.

I thought about high school, when my friend (same guy) gave me floppies of pirated, copied games. My computer programmng teacher (BASIC!), told us it was theft. But games were $30, and though my conscience bothered me, and I sucked at arcade games anyway, my friend had no problem with it. Our teacher said we would understand in the future when had to make a living on our own, when we were more likely to appreciate the value of work and money. He was right. Some of us learned. I worry that many of us did not.

Later, same problem, different name: Napster nearly destroyed the music industry. At least, it changed the industry in ways not especially beneficial to anyone.

I kept thinking about the phrase "There is no such thing as a free lunch," about which, Wikipedia:
Quote:
a popular adage communicating the idea that it is impossible to get something for nothing.…Campbell McConnell writes that the idea is "at the core of economics". Greg Mankiw described the concept as follows: "To get one thing that we like, we usually have to give up another thing that we like. Making decisions requires trading off one goal against another."… If one individual or group gets something at no cost, somebody else ends up paying for it. If there appears to be no direct cost to any single individual, there is a social cost.


I have no politics. Nor do I know much about economics. But I keep wondering who pays for all this free stuff. It’s human nature to want something cheap or free—to get the most stuff with the least amount of effort. What are the consequences of getting so many products and “content” free? (On a side note: What happens when nearly all information, such as “trick” advice, is available to everyone?)

I find it extraordinary that last summer I could buy my parents an extremely powerful Dell for only $500 (a one-terabye drive!). My first 512K Mac was over $2000. My Apple II might have been more. Think of how cheap TVs are, perhaps because they are being made in Communist China by 13-year-old girls under unjustifiable working conditions. Nearly everyone, regardless of income, has internet access, cable, several TVs and computers, cell phones, console game systems. Much of it cheap or free.

On the internet there are so many tricks and secrets, many of them unethical or illegal or both, about how to get something for little or nothing. Copyright abuse everywhere. How to get cable without paying for it. How to dowload You Tube video and audio. Pirated software, movies, music, TV shows. BitTorrent. Theft as social norm. And no one seems to mind. On the contrary, they love it. Many of these products and methods are openly praised and sold, or you can find a freeware version. How can a software developer compete with free? He can't. E-books. Goodbye bookstores and libraries. Price-comparison sites. Does my bank teller know where my money is? What bank teller?

Where is it all headed? Everyone deserves to be paid for their efforts. I know little about economics, but I know that for it function there has to be an exchange of goods and services. One makes, the other buys. One does, the other pays. Is all this free stuff eliminating jobs? Look at the consequences of Amazon, the Wal-Mart of the internet.

What do you think? I admit I’m a pessimist, but I worry about dark times ahead. If jobs are being eliminated faster than they are being created, then what?

The mind boggles.

Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
deniro #34158 05/08/15 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: deniro
Later, same problem, different name: Napster nearly destroyed the music industry. At least, it changed the industry in ways not especially beneficial to anyone.

I'm in the other camp, that believes that the music industry and movie industry were jealously guarding their stranglehold they had worked so hard to get on the market, and were going to fight to the death to prevent change because they were scared it would devaluate their business model.

In the end of course, it was not napster that dealt the blow, it was more the iTunes music store. The music industry finally came around to the idea that physical media was on its way out and digital downloads were going to replace it. They could either get onboard and start making their money on the new product the consumer wanted, or go to their grave trying to force us to buy overpriced CDs we didn't want anymore. Fortunately, saner minds prevailed and they have mostly completed the transition. Despite all their blowhard and hand-waiving from the 90's, none of the artists starved as a result. The music house profits are down slightly, and the artists are actually making a slightly larger margin than they were before, thanks to artists now having more options for bypassing the RIAA maffia and selling with fewer palms to grease between the artist and the consumer. (we did lose quite a few brick-n-mortar music stores though, but their business model was doomed)


Quote:
it changed the industry in ways not especially beneficial to anyone.

I for one find it quite beneficial to be able to hop onto iTunes and download that new song for a buck right now, rather than make a 30 minute drive to the mall to buy a $15 CD that has ONE song on it I like. I can't imagine I'm alone here.


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Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
Virtual1 #34159 05/08/15 01:09 PM
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There is a difference between the "music industry" and individual musicians struggling to make a living. Big Music goes out of its way to cheat the individuals who actually make the product. As a musician myself, I'm very well aware that most musicians scramble to make a living wage. I know lots of really fine players who teach, free-lance, travel all over the place, and then get rooked out of their agreed-upon fees.

If individuals can't make it in their chosen field, they'll pick something else and music will die.

For the record, I never tried to be a full-time musician, knowing how difficult it is to live that way. I see some really great players who scratch out a living and I'm glad that I didn't go that route, even though my career as a biology teacher was not the most satisfying way to go. That said, I had job security and now a secure pension.



Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
jchuzi #34160 05/08/15 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: jchuzi
As a musician myself, I'm very well aware that most musicians scramble to make a living wage. I know lots of really fine players who teach, free-lance, travel all over the place, and then get rooked out of their agreed-upon fees.

Someone asked the Dixie Chicks what they were going to do with all the millions of dollars their record sales had made. They replied, "Have you seen the Sony building in Nashville? Our record sales payed to build that building and in exchange we got a fancy tour bus and less than $30,00 in the bank."

Originally Posted By: jchuzi
If individuals can't make it in their chosen field, they'll pick something else and music will die.

Not just music, but anything relating to intellectual property. Music, books, computer games, software applications, all of it. Even open source software is dependent on developers who earn their living on projects where they are compensated for their intellectual efforts and contribute those skills to open source projects in their spare time.

Originally Posted By: jchuzi
For the record, I never tried to be a full-time musician, knowing how difficult it is to live that way. I see some really great players who scratch out a living and I'm glad that I didn't go that route, even though my career as a biology teacher was not the most satisfying way to go. That said, I had job security and now a secure pension.

I have a good friend who makes his living as a potter. To pay the bills, he makes functional pieces (cups, saucers, plates, etc. and it is only when he has time that he has the opportunity to create incredible art. The demands of making a living dictate that he has fewer and fewer opportunities to create his art.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
joemikeb #34161 05/08/15 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
I have a good friend who makes his living as a potter. To pay the bills, he makes functional pieces (cups, saucers, plates, etc. and it is only when he has time that he has the opportunity to create incredible art. The demands of making a living dictate that he has fewer and fewer opportunities to create his art.
I get the most musical satisfaction out of playing in orchestras or as part of a small chamber ensemble. I have played weddings and funerals (very depressing!) but they, to say the least, are not artistically satisfying. I did weddings more than funerals, thankfully, but I really disliked those gigs. The money was very good, however, so I did it.

At weddings, you get your share of drunken guests, family disputes, and people who try to renege on the contract. All musicians can relate anecdotes about "the wedding from hell" so I won't start here. Suffice it to say that I, too, have stories.


Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
deniro #34162 05/08/15 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: deniro
On the internet there are so many tricks and secrets, many of them unethical or illegal or both, about how to get something for little or nothing. Copyright abuse everywhere. How to get cable without paying for it. How to dowload You Tube video and audio. Pirated software, movies, music, TV shows. BitTorrent. Theft as social norm. And no one seems to mind. On the contrary, they love it. Many of these products and methods are openly praised and sold, or you can find a freeware version. How can a software developer compete with free? He can't. E-books. Goodbye bookstores and libraries. Price-comparison sites. Does my bank teller know where my money is? What bank teller?


I think the Internet has only changed the medium of deception, not the prevalence; although the awareness of such activities may be enhanced by the Internet.

People have always found ways to scam, deceive and ripoff. Remember moonshiners, Florida swamp land, single cigarette sales, etc., etc.

What we are experiencing now is the same idea in a new package.


On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, M2 Pro Mac mini with 27" BenQ monitor, M2 Macbook Air, MacOS 14.x; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
jchuzi #34163 05/08/15 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: jchuzi
At weddings, you get your share of drunken guests, family disputes, and people who try to renege on the contract. All musicians can relate anecdotes about "the wedding from hell" so I won't start here. Suffice it to say that I, too, have stories.

My wife is a Presbyterian minister and her mother was a professional operatic voice teacher who filled out her income singing at weddings and funerals. The weddings from hell stories I have heard would fill volumes.

There was one wedding where my wife arrived at her church to find the wedding consultant had had all the church pews removed from the sanctuary and literally thrown in a pile on the driveway to make room for the rented folding chairs. The wedding was delayed three hours while the consultant's minions removed the folding chairs, reinstalled all the pews and retrieved the chancel furniture out of the trash pile. The consultant declared bankruptcy rather than pay for the damages inflicted to the church and it furnishings. But some of the bridezillas and mothers of the bride were even more egregious.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
Virtual1 #34164 05/08/15 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Virtual1
I for one find it quite beneficial to be able to hop onto iTunes and download that new song for a buck right now, rather than make a 30 minute drive to the mall to buy a $15 CD that has ONE song on it I like. I can't imagine I'm alone here.

I have spent a LOT more money on iTunes downloads at 99¢ a pop than I ever spent on 78s, 45s, LPs, Cassette tapes, and CDs combined.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
Ira L #34165 05/08/15 05:15 PM
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deniro Offline OP
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Quote:
What we are experiencing now is the same idea in a new package.
A much bigger package, i.e. medium, means of transport, and therefore a much more dangerous one, a bigger problem, different.

Quote:
force us to buy overpriced CDs we didn't want anymore
There's a lot to untangle here.

No one forces you to buy CDs.

Most of the CDs I buy today are by serious musicians who produce an entire CD of good music, not just one marketable song, as you suggest. I want to support their efforts, esp. the ones who are lesser known and not backed by major labels, advertising, radio play, videos, TV apperances. But it's also self-interest: I like their music and I want them to continue. It's an exchange.

What do you mean overpriced? Price is relative, based on what people will pay. Even before Napster, new CDs went for $12-13, not $15 as you state, though I remember the first CD I bought, when CDs first arrived, cost $16. I found used CDs at local store for 6 or 7 dollars until the guy went out of business because he couldn't make a living. I buy new CDs rather than mp3s. The last CD I bought was a new release for $9.50. Not bad. I usually see them priced at 11-13. To me, that's fair, given everything that goes into it. How much are you willing to pay? If you want something for nothing, if you want to pay nothing, then any price is too high.

In college, I knew a girl who was a painter. I didn't know her very well, but I was interested in her paintings and it was an excuse to talk to her. She told me her lowest-priced piece was $500. I gasped. She responded that it was actually a good deal considering the time and effort that went into it: serious education, skills, talent, imagination, materials, hours of physical and mental work. She was right. I felt bad and apologized for my ignorance and rudeness.

For a brief time I worked in a department store. I couldn't believe how much theft occurred across the country in these stores, costing the company millions. You think the bosses took the losses? They took it out on employees and consumers. Then the company closed, pleasing no one.

I was raised to believe that if I couldn't pay for something, then I couldn't have it. Or, if I wanted it, then I had to find a way, an honest way, of getting it, like working more, making more money. I had to delay gratification until I could pay for it. Or I had to conclude that I couldn't get everything I wanted. Theft was never an option in my family. Neither was greed. And as someone with Italian genes, I have a low opinion of debt.



Last edited by deniro; 05/08/15 05:21 PM.
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
deniro #34249 05/13/15 03:04 AM
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It seems like there are a whole bunch of different and only vaguely related themes in this post. I've been struggling with how to reply, because there are some good thoughts in here but it's difficult to tease them apart.

Piracy (of movies, video games, music, and so on) has always been a problem and will always be a problem. I had friends back in the late 80s and early 90s give me copies of Nine Inch Nails and Sisters of Mercy albums on cassette tape. In fact, I bought albums by both bands because my friends had given me copies of their albums and I liked what I heard. (I still listen to both bands today, and have attended concerts by both). Digital technology makes it easier to do, and makes the quality of the copy much higher, but the idea of making copies has been around forever.

I have pirated content. I am also a content producer and I get mad when people pirate copies of eBooks I've written and put them up on file-sharing sites, or copy sections from my Web site. So I get both sides. And I'm profoundly unimpressed when I hear folks justifying pirating music by talking about how awful the recording industry is. (Yes, the recording industry is terrible, and pays artists only pennies...so that means it's okay to pirate their stuff and pay them nothing at all?)

I do believe, though, that people will pay for value. Sure, there will always be a core group of noisy freeloaders who feel entitled to have what they want without paying for it. But most human beings are reasonable, and will want to pay for things they see value in. I bought music albums after my friends gave me pirated copies. I had a chance to pirate ebooks by my favorite writer, Iain M. Banks, but instead I bought them on Amazon because I want to support him (and now, sadly, his widow). The people who buy my books will actually tell us when they see pirate copies online.

People pay for value. That's why I pay more for Apple products: I get value for it. That's why I bought the Skyrim and Portal video games instead of torrenting them; they give me entertainment value and I want to support their creators.

I pirate Game of Thrones. I've tried to pay for it, believe me. I want to pay for it. But until just recently, you could only get HBO in my area as part of a cable package that cost over $100 a month! Watching GoT isn't worth $100 a month to me. There isn't enough value. Now that you can get an HBO streaming subscription without spending that much dosh, I'm planning to do that.

As for hardware prices: a computer now costs $500 instead of $3500 because technology has reduced the cost of manufacture that much, at least when it comes to the chippery. Modern processors are expensive to design (it costs about a billion dollars to set up a fab for a new processor), but once the design and setup is done, each individual processor chip costs pennies, and can be sold for hundreds of dollars.

A lot of the actual manufacture is done overseas in conditions that Westerners would refuse to work in, for pay Westerners would refuse to accept, and that's a problem. But the plain truth is people won't pay to have computers made here. People won't spend $3500 for a machine they get $500 of value from. Is that bad? It's hard to say. Those people making them overseas actually have a higher standard of living than they would without that job--if you think working in a Foxconn factory is bad, try a rural farm in Guangdong province!

Would keeping the manufacturing in the US employ more Americans? Again, hard to say. There'd be more computer production jobs but people would buy fewer computers. Would it even out? My suspicion is no. What happens when the rest of the world has a high enough standard of living that we can no longer go overseas for cheap manufacture? Interesting times.

Information isn't really free on the Internet--it's just not paid for the way it has been in the past. In the past, you pay for the content directly. Now, almost all of it, from the finding of it on Google to the presentation of it on a Web site, is paid for indirectly by advertising. Does it work? It sure seems to.

How do developers compete with free? By offering greater value. Human beings don't decide solely on price (that's a secret Libertarians haven't quite figured out). And by offering more. I give away a lot of my writing, on my blog and Web sites, for free, but people who read it want more--so they buy my books, and pay to have me speak at events and conventions. Why are they willing to pay for those things? The free content shows them that what I have to say offers value.


Photo gallery, all about me, and more: www.xeromag.com/franklin.html
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
tacit #34272 05/13/15 11:24 PM
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Thank you for your thoughtful reply, and I thank others here, too. You have raised questions that none of has the answers to.

Quote:
Human beings don't decide solely on price.

Oh, I wish this were true. Are you sure you want to take this position? My experience is just the opposite. People will nearly always choose the cheap and free over quality. Not everyone. But there are so many examples.

An example off the top of my head. I took a look at one of the gasoline price trackers. Turns out, near me, there's only a few cents difference, at most, between the closest gas station and the farthest in town. But to get to that cheaper place you use more gas, so you're not saving money. The thrill of the lower price is tantalizing. It must be human nature.

Isn't the success of Windows due in part to the low cost of hardware? I'm shocked at how powerful a computer one can get for $500. I still find it hard to believe that people choose Windows over the Mac OS. I've used XP and Win 8.1. Whenever I feel downhearted about where Apple is headed, which is often, I turn on the Windows machine, again flabbergasted at what a slapdash, patchwork, unnecessarily complicated system it is. Can you believe people tolerate it? I waited for decades for the Mac OS to increase its market share, hoping that people would see the light smirk but I don't think it has ever crossed the 10% mark. I'm so disappointed at that and at what Apple has been doing in general. Perhaps eventually I will unplug.

I wish I had the money to buy the best of everything. Instead, I research everything I buy, every service I use. I have to. I look for the middle ground between luxury and garbage. It's getting harder. I find myself paying more for lower quality, despite my thorough research. Check out some web sites. Many times, all the time, I see people commenting that a certain product has declined in quality over the previous years. Yet the price continues to rise.

Everyone has to make a living.

But I admire craftsmanship, a well-built thing: JMW Turner, Bach, a Swiss watch, a BMW, a suit, a sentence, a step-ladder. But I know that this is a medieval way of looking at things. That method of work doesn't have much place in 21st century economics. Which strikes me as both good and bad. A matter beyond my ken.

Last edited by deniro; 05/13/15 11:27 PM.
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
deniro #34273 05/13/15 11:37 PM
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I hear you, deniro. I used to go by price (when I had no money!) but I have learned that sometimes this can be a false economy. You can fix your roof with cheap shingles but they'll wear faster than better ones, you risk having water damage to your house (not cheap to fix) and you'll be replacing the roof sooner rather than later. It's better to go for something better which will save money in the long run (if you can).

That reminds me of a story making the rounds in the bad old days when American cars were really unreliable (and some still are). A fellow goes to a mechanic with a brand new car and asks for service. The mechanic says, "It will cost $100 to have it run like new and $200 to make it run like it should."


Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
deniro #34274 05/13/15 11:48 PM
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I've read so many software reviews where a program gets praised and then reviewer says that it's a little expensive—at $20. Compared to freeware, maybe, but I don't think it's that much for a well-built, handy program. How do you expect these people to make money? Everyone has to make a living.

How many stolen goods are on ebay, Craigs list, Etsy. How much content do I get free on the internet? It surprised me from the beginning, when I worked for a newspaper, it still does. So much content was given away from the beginning that people got used it, and now bitch and moan about having to pay a subscription free for an online news paper or magazine.

Yes, a jumble of thoughts. My mind is intuitive rather than systematic, perhaps. grin

Here is a list of some programs I use the most.

Address Book
App Cleaner
Calculator
Disk Utility
EasyFind
Finderpop
Firefox (w/Ad Block Plus and HTTPS Everywhere)
Font Book
iCal
iTunes
MacTubes
Mail
Monolingual
Numbers
Onyx
Pages
Preview
Tex-Edit Plus

All free, though I have paid the optional $10 for Tex-Edit Plus several times over the years.

What have I paid for?
Audio Hijack Pro
Epson software (came with the printer)
Netgear Genie (came with the router)
Pacifist (not necessary)
SuperDuper

It's great. I hope.

Last edited by deniro; 05/13/15 11:49 PM.
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
deniro #34300 05/15/15 01:43 AM
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I think you're right that people are strongly motivated by price, when they're buying goods with little difference in perceived value. There's little (no?) perceived value in the difference between, say, Shell gasoline and Exxon gasoline, so price becomes a strong motivating driver.

Right now I'm involved in a really intense business incubator/startup competition in Vancouver, BC, where my partner and I are competing for a lot of money in venture capital funding. The competition involves a number of seminars (1-2 a week over a four-month period), and something we keep hearing over and over from the business owners and investors running the seminars is that competing on price is a sucker's game. People will pay more for greater perceived value. That's why Apple is the most valuable company in the world, after all, even though their prices are aimed at the high end of the market. People--a LOT of people--see value in their products and are willing to pay for that value.

I mean, hell, that's why I bought albums my friends had already given me. I saw value in supporting the artists!

If you're in the low end of the market, yeah, price is often the only meaningful differentiator. But the most interesting stuff happens outside the low end.

I have quite a lot of software I've paid for. I've bought every version of Photoshop from 1.0.3 through CS5, for example, because I make part of my living with Photoshop and so that tool has enormous value to me. I've been filming a lot of crowdfunding videos, and until recently I've been using a video camera with a built-in microphone. I just bought an external mike because the value it offers--not having to clean up the sound every time I shoot--was worth the price.

If you're competing on price, you aren't competing on value. Value is what matters if you want customers to care; someone who buys on price is gone as soon as someone else offers a lower price, and that's a game you just can't win.


Photo gallery, all about me, and more: www.xeromag.com/franklin.html
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
tacit #34302 05/15/15 09:10 AM
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Municipalities and school systems tend to award contracts to the lowest bidder. I have personally seen the results, and they prove the truth of the saying that "you get what you pay for".

There's an apocryphal story about an officer who speaks to the soldiers about to go into combat. He tells them, "As you prepare your weapons and rely on them, remember that they were made by the lowest bidder."


Jon

macOS 11.7.10, iMac Retina 5K 27-inch, late 2014, 3.5 GHz Intel Core i5, 1 TB fusion drive, 16 GB RAM, Epson SureColor P600, Photoshop CC, Lightroom CC, MS Office 365
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
tacit #34308 05/15/15 03:02 PM
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Tacit, I think those teaching your seminars are absolutely correct. In fact I would argue that anyone likely to be reading these forums is very unlikely to be solely influenced by price. If they were they would not be using Apple computers, iPhones, or iPads and would instead be using $500 Dell computers running Microsoft Windows and therefore have no interest in what we do here.

I have a friend, an artist, who makes his living as a potter. He has found that a low price can actually reduce his sales as well as his per item profit. Conversly setting his prices higher not only increases his per item profit it also increases his sales volume -- up to a point that is. The "trick" is discovering where that point is and that can change from place to place as well as over time. Finding and tracking that point is where his wife's market savvy comes into play.


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
joemikeb #34311 05/15/15 06:48 PM
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I use both my Mac w/10.6.3 and Windows 8.1 on a Dell for my folks. I debated whether to get them a Mac or a Dell. Price had quite a lot to do with it, plus the wider availability of better, cheaper software. Better support for older systems and sofware. More choice and convenience in so many ways.

Sometimes I regret it, like when I troubleshoot, but I think I made the right choice. Windows 8.1 isn't terrible, but isn't the Mac OS. But then that's changing too. I'm not a fan of ipads, iphones, or iwatches. I'm thoroughly sick of reading about iOS and its influence on OS X.

Someone made a point that I agree with, assuming I read correctly. Apple caters to the upper class. Or it used too. I remember many years ago when I told certain people I had a Mac, they heard, "Well, I own a Ferrari." No, I don't own a Ferrari. I wish I did. I don't belong to that class. That's why my Mac is eight-years-old, why I held on to my HP $250 inkjet until it was absolutley beyond use and repair, why I rarely buy software, and why I was on dialup long after most people had moved to DSL.

My point is that if you have a business that is concerned with quality to a high degree, then you sell to the wealthy. They are your customers because they have the money to pay for quality. That's how you make a living. There are certain brands that you don't even hear about unless you have a lot of money.

For most of my life, I had a snobbery against money. I wish they had taught me in school how important it really is.

Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
deniro #34315 05/16/15 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: deniro
Someone made a point that I agree with, assuming I read correctly. Apple caters to the upper class. Or it used too. I remember many years ago when I told certain people I had a Mac, they heard, "Well, I own a Ferrari." No, I don't own a Ferrari. I wish I did. I don't belong to that class. That's why my Mac is eight-years-old, why I held on to my HP $250 inkjet until it was absolutley beyond use and repair, why I rarely buy software, and why I was on dialup long after most people had moved to DSL.


I might still be missing the point. Did you keep your Mac for 8 years and avoid DSL because you are not "rich" or because you do not want to be perceived as "rich"?

If it is the latter, that is your choice. However, in the case of the former, many "not rich" people make choices and purchase things that make their life easier. For example, take a homemade lunch instead of buying one and use the savings to acquire DSL instead of dialup.

My point is that, with the exception of "money to burn" wealth, people of all socio-economic classes purchase items across class because it makes things easier for them; good judgment may not always be employed (e.g., buying a higher maintenance vehicle (cf. Ferrari) over a lower maintenance option). And that is why perhaps, many "not wealthy" people own Apple products (cf. "…I regret [Windows], like when I troubleshoot…").

Originally Posted By: deniro
My point is that if you have a business that is concerned with quality to a high degree, then you sell to the wealthy.


So people who are not wealthy are not entitled to quality? Again, people make choices for a variety of reasons and their personal wealth may not be a factor.




On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, M2 Pro Mac mini with 27" BenQ monitor, M2 Macbook Air, MacOS 14.x; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
Ira L #34316 05/16/15 08:08 PM
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If price were the only consideration everyone would be driving a Honda FIT or a Smart because of their low price and operating cost. So why are there so many 3/4 and 1 ton pickup trucks and similar sized SUVs on the road carrying a lone 120 pound woman and $10 worth of groceries? Why would anyone buy an original work of art when they could print out a black and white photograph of the same work on a dot matrix printer? Why would anyone buy a good reclining chair for $900 when they could make a bench out of salvaged scrap lumber? Why would anyone pay me $100 for a cake plate turned from a gorgeous piece of Texas Honey Mesquite when they can get a perfectly serviceable plastic one from Walmart for $3? Why do so many homeless men and women have iPhones? (Answer -- they cannot afford computers and the iPhones provide invaluable links to potentail employers, as well as access to the internet for job searches, not to mention 911 access for safety when they are "bivouacking" under a bridge at night.)

People in every ecomonic strata make purchases every day based on their perceived value of a product -- to them! When faced with economic realities (cost versus bank balance) every rational person makes choices and trade offs. My wife's favorite criteria is how many Starbucks beverages will she have to forego to recover the cost of a new item. For more expensive items she uses dinners out at a good restaraunt. Trips to Walt Disney World are sancrosanct and can only be traded off for a genuine bucket list item. crazy My purchase of an Apple Watch is causing me to forego the purchase of more really neat new woodturning tools than I want to even think about. smile Did I need the Apple Watch? the answer is an unequivocal NO! But I did perceive it as offering enough value for me to buy it. (Then my wife looked at the Apple Watch sales pitch and one became two shocked ) We will be eating far less often for at least the rest of this year!

Last edited by joemikeb; 05/16/15 08:16 PM. Reason: bivouacking

If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
joemikeb #34318 05/16/15 09:23 PM
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I agree that people will spend money on what they want, no matter what it takes. The words "I want" usually trump rationality.

Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
deniro #34321 05/17/15 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: deniro
The words "I want" usually trump rationality.

That is, unfortunately, so very true.

I don't know what the figure is for the U.S. or elsewhere but, according to a recent Statistics Canada release, Canada's household debt-to-disposable income ratio rose to new high of 163.3 per cent in fourth quarter of 2014. Put another way, households held roughly $1.63 of credit market debt for every dollar of disposable income as of the end of last year.

That's just nutty….very, very nutty.

Last edited by ryck; 05/17/15 07:36 AM.

ryck

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Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
joemikeb #34346 05/18/15 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
We will be eating far less often for at least the rest of this year!


I hope you mean eating out less often and not necessarily reducing your food intake! smirk


On a Mac since 1984.
Currently: 24" M1 iMac, M2 Pro Mac mini with 27" BenQ monitor, M2 Macbook Air, MacOS 14.x; iPhones, iPods (yes, still) and iPads.
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
Ira L #34349 05/18/15 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ira L
Originally Posted By: joemikeb
We will be eating far less often for at least the rest of this year!


I hope you mean eating out less often and not necessarily reducing your food intake! smirk

You are correct. That's what I get from composing while sitting on a dark outside porch because I could not get a WiFi signal in my room. blush


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
joemikeb #34363 05/19/15 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted By: joemikeb
That's what I get from composing while sitting on a dark outside porch because I could not get a WiFi signal in my room. blush

That's quite embarrassing getting your wifi better outside the house than inside! (unless of course you're leeching off the neighbors!!)


I work for the Department of Redundancy Department
Re: The Internet and the Free Lunch
Virtual1 #34366 05/19/15 02:15 PM
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The room in question is not at my house it is at Disney's Old Key West Resort at Walt Disney World in Florida. This particular room is the only one where I have encountered this particular problem in all of the many times I have stayed there. Disney's WiFi Tech Support said they had only recently been made aware of the problem in that particular room and they are working to identify what is interfering with the signal in that specific location. They had gone so far as to switch out the refrigerator in our kitchen, but so far no joy and "thanks for letting us know we still have not solved the problem."


If we knew what it was we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?

— Albert Einstein
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