Home Forums Mac Software Mac Operating Systems Big nightmare today with Icloud

I use a 3rd party app for text expansion, Love this app and use it on both imac and laptop. The sync for the snippets, were not working great. The developer is not so great about returning emails, so after a couple of months, I just upgraded the app (which was a bit upgrade, I did not know about). And chose the option to merge local snippets iwth icloud.

Then my icloud folder was haywire. All folders know there gone replace gibbersh names folders. WTF?

45 min with apple tech, help restore in TM, but again wtf? The apple tech did not venture guess on this.

Also, curious, restarting just does not work anymore with Mac Mini, yet up to date OS.. takes 10 min (whole life on apple restrating was 40 sec or so ) what is up with that?

Thanks!

According to Apple there was an issue involving “some” users this afternoon that was resolved around 5:30.

Thanks Joe, don't understand that.

Also one folder of 100 images, only 3 are in there now and only 3 from last 2 months of time machine. as going back more I found one with the 100 but wont open, 'file not found'. I've always said; Icloud driver extremply dangerous storage.

This is what my icloud folder looked like at noon today:

https://imgur.com/a/EEaHPhy

all Gibberish.

At 11am before adding that sync stuff from the 3rd party app is was like this:

https://imgur.com/a/XRGMdUG


Apple tech, no clue.

This folder images from TM, all damged now lost whole projecct no clue

https://imgur.com/a/Nzk9pmm

Wont open in photoshop either, all back up in TM only have 2-3 imamges instead of the 100 I had, and go back and find one with 100 wont open. So dangerous icloud storage.

What you are encountering is beyond weird and AFIK unique.

Time Machine has absolutely nothing to do with iCloud or iCloud Drive and the issues may be the unfortunate confluence of two or more unrelated issues, but that seems unlikely. This leads me to suspect there is something else going on IN YOUR COMPUTER, OR IN YOUR PROCESS that is causing the data corruption. I further suspect it is not going to be an easy problem to troubleshoot. My suggestion is…

1. REMEMBER THAT APPLE NEVER INTENDED ICLOUD AS A BACKUP SYSTEM FOR MACS. IT IS DESIGNED AND OPTIMIZED TO SYNCHRONIZE A USER'S DATA AND SETTINGS ACROSS MULTIPLE DEVICES. The fact that it can function as crude form of data backup for macOS is purely coincidental.¹
2. Choose a time where you have several uninterrupted hours available for troubleshooting
3. START WITH AN OPEN MIND AND NOT FORGONE CONCLUSIONS. I am serious. It might be very productive to have quantities of the relaxing potion of your choice (tea, wine, beer, single malt scotch, etc.) ready to hand and practice your favorite relaxation technique before you start. (I know that helps me to listen and not just hear what I expect/want to hear.)
4. Contact Apple Support
5. Rather than your diagnosing the problem ("iCloud is so dangerous"), carefully describe EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE OBSERVING ("Both my Time machine and iCloud files are corrupted.") It may help to have written notes on the specific sequence of observations.
6. Because Apple's first level technical support is product specific and there are two very different products involved, Time Machine and iCloud Drive, escalation to second or third level support may be necessary to find a solution. Patience is definitely a virtue in this situation.
7. Remember tech support tends to focus on fixing the problem and getting you back up an running as expeditiously as possible, but if I were you I would be equally interested in knowing why it happened and what needs to be done to prevent a reoccurrence. You may have to remind Tech Support of this fact.
8. Please keep FineTunedMac in the loop

————————

Footnotes:

1. I am simplifying by encompassing iCloud, iCloud Drive, and iCloud+, each with its own feature set and functionality, under the sobriquet "iCloud". While this leads to less precision in my comments, the point remains valid,

Joe, thanks, first all I do not use Icloud Drive as a backup, never implied that even.

I had 4 -5 years ago a huge sync mess there and spent hours of phone with good Apple tech, and after that, limited or cut down folders there by 2/3s.

Just stuff want easy access on all devices.... Still some folders there are are important. 90% of important folders/files are are home hard drives.

Everything is fine: I restored from TM all good now.. except one folder of 115 images, fine art project, could only find one good TM backup from year 1/2 ago with 100 ok, Fine . In that folder images were disappearing or if remained corrupted. Everything else seems ok for now.

I think of you, remember you use Icloud drive as a primary drive for Gigabits, of core data (maybe wrong on that ?

For me best place for data are hardrive at home backup.

I cloud drive to me, my expderience, every 3 years - it's massively unstable. Every few years go haywire. This last one where all folders gone and all folders where gobbly gook (100%) becuase of this expander text software sync being there (try to remember to put sync file in a google drive or somewhere else)

Admittedly I am a fan of iCloud primarily because it enables me to have access to all of my files on all of my devices. Even my desktop wallpaper is the same on my Mac, iPhone, and iPad In fact when iCloud Drive > Desktop & Documents is activated Finder shows those folders as iCloud rather than local folders. But that does not mean it is appropriate for all uses. As an example, for data management and access purposes, the bulk of my work and financial data is stored in a DEVONThink database and although I can sync the database file using an iCloud API, the database itself has to be on a local drive, (in my case a 2TB RAID 0+1 U2 array) in order to support the Spotlight linkages in the databases. The RAID itself is backed up in Time Machine as well as mirrored in the array (admittedly I am paranoid about data loss). My previous response was more a reaction to numerous previous complaints about iCloud by users that apparently misunderstand the product and complain because they are attempting to drive a nail with a pair of pliers.

BACK ON TOPIC

As I was writing this I got to thinking about your corrupted Time Machine backup. Obviously once an active file becomes corrupted/changed the next Time Machine backup of that file and all subsequent instances in Time Machine will also be corrupted/changed. So Time Machine was not at fault at all. That leaves the question of how the file was corrupted/changed in the first place.

1. A file is copied to TM ONLY when it did not exist in the previous backup or had changed since the previous backup.
2. Subsequent backups only contain a pointer the last actual version copied to Time Machine
3. If there were an error in copying a file to Time Machine, the next TM backup would not find a match and copy the entire file a second time. So the corrupted file would only exist in the backup for one TM cycle
4. Therefore any damage would have to have occurred in the original location
5. This would indicate a potential problem on the original drive.

RECOMMENDATION

Use a tool such as DriveDX or TechTool Pro 18 that provides a full analysis of the S.M.A.R.T. and NVME values to see if there are any indications of impending drive failure you should r cognizant of.

JOe:

The massive haywire yesterday is because of icloud, caused by that 3rd party apps synch file being there. Still put most blame on icloud, -- let's say 50/ 50 .. double that would happen on normal drive. (the app did say use also Google drive etc, ,so have to learn to put sync files on Google drive) since never put anything important there (once in blue moon)

TM, yes not at fault, I put blame on icloud too for the missing images and corrupted images: Lesson, don't have anything critical on icloud, and back up important things even manually there every few months.

BTW have you noticed that rebooting is no longer working with Mac OS or, say restarting. Takes 5 -10 min, do given up. Just doing shut down and start. Weird, Apple was getting it's restart feature better and shorter for years (like 45 sec)k and now too long, to be usable.

Restart still works in Sonoma on my Mac Studio, but the shutdown process can sometimes take what seems to be an interminable length of time — as long as two or three minutes — depending on what needs to be finished up in any closing apps.

As a test, I just ran a full COLD boot and the timing in minutes and seconds was:

• Power on to HDMI display on: 00:05.00 (approximate)
• Power on to Password request: 00:12.50 (Firewire display)
• password entry to load start: 00:06.88
• load start to first app open: 01:15.59
• first app open to complete load: 00:43.91
• Total time from hitting start to loading complete 02:20.20 (That includes human reaction time, entering password twice, mounting two external firewire RAID arrays (4 HDs and 8 NVMEs), 2 USB SSDs, 1 USB HD, and 2 Firewire SSDs. Launching 6 desktop applications and approximately 14 utilities and user extensions.)

To be honest I expected the process to take longer, but there it is.

JOe, but it used to be 45 sec; and on another day it could be double that right? What happened?

I haven't seen a 45 second cold boot in years, but then I have a LOT of devices hanging on my Studio and I very seldom reboot unless there is an OS update.

• each of those devices must power on, announce their presence the Mac including who and what they are,
• the Mac must then load the appropriate drivers for each of them.
• the system performs a number of security checks including verifying the integrity of the boot snapshot and a few hundred thousand other system files all of which is computationally intensive.
• If there are hard drives attached to or in the system they can take several seconds to come up to speed so they can be used without errors.
• Network connections have to be established, so the speed of your network effects the boot time.
• Finally the process involves sequentially booting three different stages, "ISCPreboot", Preboot, and macOS with security verifications at each stage.

In a word, SECURITY

The internet has become increasingly more dangerous and virtually all computer or smart device use involves the internet to at least some degree. Software is replaceable but data is arguably irreplaceable so Apple validates the security of the software BEFORE the software has an opportunity to effect the data.

FAMOUS LOST WORDS

I just rebooted and although I did not have stopwatch on the process both screens were complete in <20 seconds and the system was accepting trackpad commands in < 40 seconds. It appears the reboot does not trigger either the ICSPreboot or Preboot steps. and goes directly to booting the system snapshot, but that has not been adequately verified — yet.

Joe ok interesting, so then there was a golden age where rebooting or restarting was faster you agree? In short, may be easier then to shut down and start?

For icloud chaos, you agree that.. wft? guys software has a sync feature, put a file into the drive, and turns all existing folders in there to mush?

There was a golden age when the internet was not as dangerous environment and did not require today's level of precaution for safe use — probably some 10 years ago. That is history. Today's reality is significantly different.


I have no explanation for that. I am among the millions of iCloud users and iCloud Drive users (those are different products) that have not encountered any such corruption.

Thanks Joe on the reboot explanation. Last Apple tech said, well it's shutting down this or that; but your explanation of security, and everyone seesa level of Scams in last 10 years out of control.. ok that said, I'm done with rebooting, just easier on the mind to now shut down and restart.

For icloud chaos, now have 2 big rounds in 6 years; this last one... just amazing, just a sync file and all existing folders are gone ; replaced by gobblygook folders. I've trimmed down and am vigilant of now what on there. I envy your (and others) streak of good luck. Still its a totally unstable place to have things. And I'm saying that with still some very important folders/ files there (as so nice to go between laptop/ dektop on those) 95% of imporant stuff is not on icloud though. Scary place icloud.

Technically a cold boot must take longer than a reboot (a.k.a. warm boot, but a warm boot does NOT reset all of the data registers in the CPU, and a cold boot does. There are situations where a cold boot will fix an issue that would not be corrected by a reboot/warm boot. So, although the cold boot may take a little longer, it may well be more efficacious.


I am not arguing with your experience, but it occurs to me the difference may be in how we use iCloud/iCloud Drive.

• In macOS¹, I almost never write/save/read directly to the iCloud Drive²
• Instead I have System Settings > Apple ID > ... Mac and Desktop & Documents folders set to ON
• I then access the files in my Documents folder on Macintosh HD
• then MacOS AT ITS CONVENIENCE, replicates the changes to the iCloud Drive. (the lag may be anywhere from a few seconds to hours or days if there is a communications glitch to the iCloud Drive).
• Thanks to MacOS any lag is very rarely apparent and never effects my workflow.

There are, however, opportunities for third party applications to encounter/create problems IF FILE OPERATIONS INDEXING etc. ARE DIRECTED TO THE ICLOUD DRIVE COPY. These "opportunities" are principally the result of the time lag and the fact the iCloud Drive is a virtual representation of a physical reality that exists on multiple drives in multiple server farms across the continent and the globe.

———————

Footnotes:

1. iOS and iPadOS are a different ballgame played with very different rules.
2. There are a limited number of cases where writing directly to the iCloud Drive is useful and/or advisable.

Thanks JOe ok Cold boot, thats me now fine, restarting/ rebooting which been my go to for years is done. You confirm Cold boot even better (which I was advised to do every blue moon per what you say)

I cloud ok, unstable, that's it.... got gist of what you said now: you are not using is as primary place for important files or something like that! but using it...

Yes I heard from apple ipad is on it's own weird plane, as my emails and photos on the ipad, don't sync as well as the iphone..